Was God's choosing Israel an act of aparteid...

[fhansen]

Yes dubious honour, but an honour nevertheless.

And who knows - they may yet come to repentance and lead the world back to Messiah.

Oh yes, God has His plans for them I'm sure.

 

[Ephesians321]

What is false about the term "replacement theology"

Supersessionism, also called replacement theology or fulfillment theology, is a Christian theological doctrine which describes the theological conviction that the Christian Church has superseded the nation of Israel assuming their role as God's covenanted people, thus asserting that the New Covenant through Jesus Christ has superseded or replaced the Mosaic covenant exclusive to Jews. Supersessionist theology also holds that the universal Christian Church has replaced ancient Israel as God's true Israel and that Christians (including gentiles) have replaced the biological bloodline of ancient Israelites as the people of God.

Jesus is the true spiritual Israel. Israel after the flesh was the type/shadow:
[Referring to Jesus] “Out of Egypt I called my Son.” Mt. 2:15
“The promises were spoken to Abraham and to his seed… which is Christ.” Gal 3:16

Being “in Christ” is the fulfillment of the Abrahamic covenant. Being “in the land” was the “type”:
“If you are Christ's, then you are Abraham's seed and heirs according to promise.” Gal. 3:29
Paul called believers in Christ, “The Israel of God.” Gal. 6:16

Those who are “in Christ” are the chosen people. Israel after the flesh was the type/shadow:
“Those who are of faith, the same are children of Abraham.” Gal. 3:7
“For we are the circumcision, who worship God in the Spirit, and rejoice in Christ Jesus.“ Phil. 3:3.
“He is a Jew who is one inwardly, and circumcision is that of the heart.” Rom. 2:29

 

[Carl Emerson]

Jesus is the true spiritual Israel. Israel after the flesh was the type/shadow:
[Referring to Jesus] “Out of Egypt I called my Son.” Mt. 2:15
“The promises were spoken to Abraham and to his seed… which is Christ.” Gal 3:16

Being “in Christ” is the fulfillment of the Abrahamic covenant. Being “in the land” was the “type”:
“If you are Christ's, then you are Abraham's seed and heirs according to promise.” Gal. 3:29
Paul called believers in Christ, “The Israel of God.” Gal. 6:16

Those who are “in Christ” are the chosen people. Israel after the flesh was the type/shadow:
“Those who are of faith, the same are children of Abraham.” Gal. 3:7
“For we are the circumcision, who worship God in the Spirit, and rejoice in Christ Jesus.“ Phil. 3:3.
“He is a Jew who is one inwardly, and circumcision is that of the heart.” Rom. 2:29

Of course there is a 'Spiritual Israel' and an Israel of the Flesh but the reality of a Spiritual Israel does not replace the Israel by Blood.

 

[Ephesians321]

Of course there is a 'Spiritual Israel' and an Israel of the Flesh but the reality of a Spiritual Israel does not replace the Israel by Blood.

You are quite incorrect. What is it that you do not comprehend about: “Know ye therefore that they which are of faith, the same are the children of Abraham. There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all  ONE in Christ Jesus. If you are Christ's, then you are Abraham's seed and heirs according to promise.” Gal. 3:7, 28-29

There is ONE BODY and ONE SPIRIT, just as you were called in ONE HOPE of your calling; one Lord, ONE FAITH, one baptism; one God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all. Ephesians 4:4-6

But you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you. Now if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he is not His. For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, these are sons of God. Romans 8:9,14

Who is a liar but he that denieth that Jesus is the Christ? He is antichrist, that denieth the Father and the Son. And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that spirit of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world. For many deceivers are entered into the world, who confess not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh. This is a deceiver and an antichrist. 1 John 2:22, 4:3; 2 John 1:7

No. God promised and gave Israel a new and supremely better Covenant under Messiah Jesus. Physical land means nothing compared to Life in Christ. “Behold, the days come, says Yahweh, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah: not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt…But this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, says Yahweh: I will put my law in their inward parts, and in their heart will I write it; and I will be their God, and they shall be my people.” Jer. 31:31-34

Unto him be glory in the church by Christ Jesus throughout all ages, world without end. Amen Ephesians 3:21

Israel after the flesh no longer exists. They have the same standing before God as every Gentile.

 

[Lost Witness]

If you are Christ's, then you are Abraham's seed and heirs according to promise

Read it as...
Added to
Not replacement of...
Just my take..

 

[Ephesians321]

Read it as...
Added to
Not replacement of...
Just my take..

Yes and no, yes the Gentiles were added but also Jews lost their exclusiveness. It is not about Israel after the flesh that matters anymore but only Christ that matters now. Israel after the flesh fulfilled their purpose by delivering the Messiah. They need to accept Christ as their Savior and be grafted into the New Covenant which doesn't concern itself with lands and the temple cultus like the nature of the Old Covenant. Mosaic Law presented temporary shadows and types of the current reality of Christ.

 

[stevevw]

Jesus ascended to heaven from the Mount of Olives, which is in Jerusalem and He will return again to the same place and enter the Jewish Temple. [Acts 1:9-12 and Zechariah 14:4-5].

Jesus won't be returning to London or New York. It will be to Jerusalem in Isreal.

 

[Carl Emerson]

You are quite incorrect. What is it that you do not comprehend about: “Know ye therefore that they which are of faith, the same are the children of Abraham. There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all  ONE in Christ Jesus. If you are Christ's, then you are Abraham's seed and heirs according to promise.” Gal. 3:7, 28-29

Yes of course - within the Body of Christ there is no Jew or Greek etc - Correct.

Outside of the Body of Christ is a different issue.

 

[Carl Emerson]

This conversation makes me wonder if any main stream churches have officially adopted 'replacement theology'

 

[trophy33]

Yes of course - within the Body of Christ there is no Jew or Greek etc - Correct.

Outside of the Body of Christ is a different issue.

What does that even mean?

Imagine the ark and flood all around it. Those on the ark (i.e. in Christ) are saved. Who are outside, will die. The same fate regardless one's genes.

 

[Carl Emerson]

What does that even mean?

Imagine the ark and flood all around it. Those on the ark (i.e. in Christ) are saved. Who are outside, will die. The same fate regardless one's genes.

What you fail to consider is who will be called to salvation and join those 'in the arK'

Paul speaking about his unsaved Jewish brothers in the flesh, indicates a time when all would be saved.

This would amount to a massive repentance among living Jews - I cant see that this has already happened in History.

Some think the Nation of Israel will be expelled from the land and find deep repentance, returning again to the land with Jesus in their hearts. Time will tell.

God has a way of having mercy on the undeserving. I am sure we can all relate to that.

 

[Ephesians321]

What you fail to consider is who will be called to salvation and join those 'in the arK'

Paul speaking about his unsaved Jewish brothers in the flesh, indicates a time when all would be saved.

This would amount to a massive repentance among living Jews - I cant see that this has already happened in History.

Some think the Nation of Israel will be expelled from the land and find deep repentance, returning again to the land with Jesus in their hearts. Time will tell.

God has a way of having mercy on the undeserving. I am sure we can all relate to that.

You are reading too much into the Romans 11:26 text. Jesus already saved all of Israel. Romans 11:26 + Romans 11:4-5 + Romans 11:7 = All of the Remnant were saved (all of Israel after the flesh that came to Christ were saved Rev. 7:14, 14:4). Today Jesus is still saving Jews but he had already saved all of the martyrs (firstfruits) out of the Great Tribulation A.D. 64-70. God is not ever going to save one complete whole generation of Jews. Romans 11:4-5 & Romans 11:7 says as much. He saved all the Jews that belonged to Christ. Romans 11:26 is speaking about his Remnant exclusively and not the whole of all of global Jewry. Romans 11:26 can not be divorced from the context of Romans 11:4-5, 7.

 

[Ephesians321]

Yes of course - within the Body of Christ there is no Jew or Greek etc - Correct.

Outside of the Body of Christ is a different issue.

There is no issue outside the Body of Christ, they are as equally as lost but not found as unrepentant Gentile unbelievers. They need to come to Christ in order to be saved.

 

[trophy33]

This would amount to a massive repentance among living Jews - I cant see that this has already happened in History.

I do not think this interpretation fits the text. The text is that all Israel (all elected - both from Gentiles and Jews) will be saved. Its not about "all genetic Jews".

Saving is through faith, not through ethnicity.

In other words, Israel does not equal ethnicity, in the text. But election/faith.

 

[ViaCrucis]

What is false about the term "replacement theology"

Supersessionism, also called replacement theology or fulfillment theology, is a Christian theological doctrine which describes the theological conviction that the Christian Church has superseded the nation of Israel assuming their role as God's covenanted people, thus asserting that the New Covenant through Jesus Christ has superseded or replaced the Mosaic covenant exclusive to Jews. Supersessionist theology also holds that the universal Christian Church has replaced ancient Israel as God's true Israel and that Christians (including gentiles) have replaced the biological bloodline of ancient Israelites as the people of God.

Because "Replacement Theology" is a pejorative label and is incorrect.

The historic teaching of the Christian Church and Scripture is not that the Church has replaced Israel, but that Israel is the Church, and the Church is Israel. Israel, as God's people, isn't being replaced by another people; but rather Israel is expanded. When a Gentile is baptized and becomes a member of the Body of Christ, they are now a branch on the tree that is Israel. The olive tree has natural branches (Jews) and wild branches which have been grafted on (Gentiles); that tree is Israel/the Church and Christ is the root.

I am not a Jew, but I am a child of Abraham through faith in the Messiah; and therefore an heir of God's promises to Abraham fulfilled through the Messiah--through Jesus. And, therefore, there is neither Jew nor Gentile; there is the one people in the Messiah. This is Israel, this is the Church.

It has always been Jesus Christ who makes Israel Israel. The promise given to Abraham is fulfilled in the Messiah, in Jesus. Jesus is the foundation, the root. St. Paul says that when the people were in the wilderness under Moses Christ was with them,

"For I want you to know, brothers, that our fathers were all under the cloud, and all passed through the sea, and all were baptized into Moses in the cloud and the sea, and all ate the same spiritual food, and all drank the same spiritual drink. For they drank from the spiritual rock that followed them, and the rock was Christ." - 1 Corinthians 10:1-4

Jesus was there in the beginning of Israel's formation as the people. He has always been the foundation. The "stone which the builders rejected has become the chief cornerstone" (Psalm 118:22, Matthew 21:42)

Being a member of God's people was never about genetics or biology. Just read the story of Ruth. Or consider the words of St. John the Baptist in Matthew 3:9-10 and Luke 3:8-9). It was always based on God's mercy, God's compassion, and God's promises.

Jesus isn't an addition to the story of Israel that we see played out in the Old Testament; Jesus is the foundation of that story, He is the through-line of that story. He's the reason for that story.

God chose Abraham for Christ's sake; and Abraham became the father of not just a great nation, but many nations, through the Promised Offspring, Jesus Christ. God delivered His people out of Egypt for Christ's sake, and it was Christ who was with them through the wilderness. The giving of the Torah was for Christ's sake, for the Law was the paidagogos, the harsh tutor, to point to Christ. Jesus is the Light about which Israel was to be a light to the nations; the same light which He says is shining as a city on a hill.

Jesus doesn't come after Israel, and then establish a secondary group as though the former group is forgotten.

From Abraham to Moses, to David, Solomon, and all the Prophets including John the Baptist; and stretching all the way back to Adam there is Jesus Christ the Son of God, the First and the Last, the Alpha and Omega, the Lamb of God slain before the foundation of the world for the sins of the world--conceived and born of Mary and who suffered under Pontius Pilate.

For all things were made by Him and for Him (Collossians 1:16) and apart from Him nothing made was made (John 1:3), that in all things Christ is preeminent (Colossians 1:18) and all things summed up in HIm (Ephesians 1:9-10).

Jesus Christ is Israel.

Read through the Suffering Servant poem of Isaiah, the Suffering Servant is Israel, and yet we see in Isaiah 53 that this Servant is also an individual, it's the Messiah, it's Jesus (Acts 8:32-35). And what does the Prophet Hosea say?

"When Israel was a child, I loved him, and out of Egypt I called My son." - Hosea 11:1

"And he rose and took the Child and His mother by night and departed to Egypt and remained there until the death of Herod. Ths was to fulfill what the Lord had spoken by the prophet, 'Out of Egypt I called My Son.'" - Matthew 2:14-15

There is no Israel without Christ. There never has been.

Now, as far as God's plans and purposes for un-believing Jews? St. Paul is hopeful (and we ought also to be hopeful), as the Apostle touches upon in Romans 11:25-36. I believe that God's grand designs and purposes, in Christ, for the world shall come to His desired end. What all of that looks like, in fullness, I don't think any of us can say.

But if I were to look at the modern state of Israel as the fulfillment of God's promises, rather than Jesus Christ and the redemption and salvation that is in Him for the whole world, I would be betraying the very essence of the Gospel.

-CryptoLutheran

 

[Carl Emerson]

There is no issue outside the Body of Christ, they are as equally as lost but not found as unrepentant Gentile unbelievers. They need to come to Christ in order to be saved.

Yes of course, but some are chosen and some are not - our discussion is circular because you believe all the Jews to be saved already are...

Yet how this claim relates to Messianics coming to salvation today is a matter for you to address.

 

[Ephesians321]

Yes of course, but some are chosen and some are not - our discussion is circular because you believe all the Jews to be saved already are...

Yet how this claim relates to Messianics coming to salvation today is a matter for you to address.

Now you are putting words in my mouth. Read Romans 11:4-5, 7 very, very, very carefully your attention needs to seriously drop on each and every word Paul wrote. Please remember Paul is addressing a 1st century audience not a 21st century audience. Furthermore, what is required to be a chosen people and an heir of Abraham and his promises today?

Hint: Deuteronomy 32:21; Isaiah 65:1, 15; 1 Peter 2:2-10

 

[Carl Emerson]

Now, as far as God's plans and purposes for un-believing Jews? St. Paul is hopeful (and we ought also to be hopeful), as the Apostle touches upon in Romans 11:25-36. I believe that God's grand designs and purposes, in Christ, for the world shall come to His desired end. What all of that looks like, in fullness, I don't think any of us can say.

Yes I think we are on the same page - as far as the Body of Believers is concerned. I believe the Cross is a timeless event which secures salvation through repentance throughout history for all who are chosen from whatever race.

And yes, the Modern Sate of Israel may have a spiritual purpose in the future, and we are hopeful for all the Jews to come to salvation as Paul was.

However I do believe that the Nation State of Israel in the Old Covenant had a mandate to reflect God's Righteousness to mankind and when in obedience experienced manifold blessings not known by surrounding nations.

Now the question posed in this thread is this - When God so chose to set apart the Nation of Israel in the old Covenant for this purpose, was that an act of apartheid ?

 

[Carl Emerson]

Now you are putting words in my mouth. Read Romans 11:4-5, 7 very, very, very carefully your attention needs to seriously drop on each and every word Paul wrote. Please remember Paul is addressing a 1st century audience not a 21st century audience. Furthermore, what is required to be a chosen people and an heir of Abraham and his promises today?

Hint: Deuteronomy 32:21; Isaiah 65:1, 15; 1 Peter 2:2-10

Sorry - have I misunderstood you - I thought you indicated all Jews were saved in fulfilment of what Paul said, back in the first century ???

 

[Ephesians321]

Sorry - have I misunderstood you - I thought you indicated all Jews were saved in fulfilment of what Paul said, back in the first century ???

I broke down Paul's message to distinguish between the Elect Jews in brackets and non-Elect Jews in parenthesis of the present time (when Paul wrote the letter).

1. But what saith the answer of God unto him? [I have reserved to myself seven thousand men], who have not bowed the knee to the image of Baal.

[Old Testament typology for the Jewish Remnant aka Jewish elect]

2. Even so then [at this present time also there is a remnant] according to the [election of grace.]

3. What then? (Israel hath not obtained that which he seeketh for) [but the election hath obtained it,] (and the rest were blinded.)

4. [And so all** Israel shall be saved**:] as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:

5. (And they also, if they abide not still in unbelief, shall be grafted in: for God is able to graft them in again.)


Romans 11:4-5,7,26,23

** Remnant & Gentile believers = Israel Of God