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Was Ellen White a true or false prophet?

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tampasteve

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Now Ellen White may have done this in ignorance and with the best intentions to serve the chruch and Christ but good motivations don't magic the support in the bible. It's still not there. Best case it was done in ignorance but then we have to look at all that she said with an extra layer of human layer that she has demonstrated and it's hard in the end to know what of God and what's humans error.

Perhaps instead of a prophet we can say she was an imperfect Christian that had moments of the gift of prophecy but not always operating in that office and human ambition muddied the message.
I think this pretty much is a fair assessment of her. Although I would personally go as far as saying that she did not have moments of prophesy, but rather that she was adept and skilled at re-packaging and rewording the OT prophets for a modern time.
 
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Gary K

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They may be but what about the teachings that cannot be biblically supported? Some systems in the SDA church hinge on dividing up law to give them preferential treatment. Let's table the discussion about which laws you think are important, and focus on the biblical support to divide up law like this.

Is this not an Ellen White teaching? Where is the biblical support to treat law this way? If no such support is there these systems are based on false teachings and in a vacuum to those systems would be supported by a false teacher.

Now Ellen White may have done this in ignorance and with the best intentions to serve the chruch and Christ but good motivations don't magic the support in the bible. It's still not there. Best case it was done in ignorance but then we have to look at all that she said with an extra layer of human layer that she has demonstrated and it's hard in the end to know what of God and what's humans error.

Perhaps instead of a prophet we can say she was an imperfect Christian that had moments of the gift of prophecy but not always operating in that office and human ambition muddied the message.

Muhammad was an excellent leader driven by the right motivates and with Christian influence. You might even say in the begining he was a nestorian Christian, but a switch happened from a discovery pre-Christian leader to a war mongering and a hate for Jews and Christians. He become corrupted and his message was not under divine influence. White perhaps has some genuine prophecies but there may have been a turning point where her message become to muddied with human influence, she seems like a genuine Christian but her ideas probably get too much attention.
Her writings are Biblical. You and I disagree on that. I don't accept your reading of scripture.

I can't "prove" that to you as scriptural beliefs are based on faith and spiritual discernment, but the fruits of her life fit with those of Christ's life in her service for her fellow man. That is very telling. Someone who is not led by God will have the attributes of Satan not the attributes of God.

Here is an obituary from Boston University.


Here are other important factors I would point out to you. Ellen White never got beyond the third grade because of a severe injury. yet she has been named as one the top 100 of the most influential woman authors of all time. How does that happen without divine intervention? How did she know cancer was caused by an infectious agent? That wasn't verified by science until the 1970's and the discovers won the Nobel prize for their work. She also said meat eating is a cause of cancer, and that is only now being verified by science. How did she know all these things without divine intervention?
 
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Gary K

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Leaf473

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Her writings are Biblical. You and I disagree on that. I don't accept your reading of scripture.

I can't "prove" that to you as scriptural beliefs are based on faith and spiritual discernment, but the fruits of her life fit with those of Christ's life in her service for her fellow man. That is very telling. Someone who is not led by God will have the attributes of Satan not the attributes of God.

Here is an obituary from Boston University.


Here are other important factors I would point out to you.
Ellen White never got beyond the third grade because of a severe injury. yet she has been named as one the top 100 of the most influential woman authors of all time. How does that happen without divine intervention?
Hello Gary, my brother :heart:

Just dealing with that question specifically, we may wish to note that the "latter-day Saints" say the same thing about Joseph Smith. I'm not saying that White and Smith were both sent by God, or that neither were. I'm just saying that the situation of the person who can barely read and write who goes on to write something amazing has happened before.

The explanation that I use is that one person in every 10 million or so has a genius gift which may go unrecognized.

Similar to the kind of gift Mozart had. How could anyone at the age of maybe six or eight sit down at a keyboard and improvise a fugue out of thin air? It's impossible... well, except for that one in 10 million.

Peace be with you, my friend!

How did she know cancer was caused by an infectious agent? That wasn't verified by science until the 1970's and the discovers won the Nobel prize for their work. She also said meat eating is a cause of cancer, and that is only now being verified by science. How did she know all these things without divine intervention?
 
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Gary K

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Hello Gary, my brother :heart:

Just dealing with that question specifically, we may wish to note that the "latter-day Saints" say the same thing about Joseph Smith. I'm not saying that White and Smith were both sent by God, or that neither were. I'm just saying that the situation of the person who can barely read and write who goes on to write something amazing has happened before.

The explanation that I use is that one person in every 10 million or so has a genius gift which may go unrecognized.

Similar to the kind of gift Mozart had. How could anyone at the age of maybe six or eight sit down at a keyboard and improvise a fugue out of thin air? It's impossible... well, except for that one in 10 million.

Peace be with you, my friend!
Right. so much of a genius she guessed many years ahead of science. I have to chuckle at that assertion.
 
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Gary K

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I believe Ellen White was a false prophet.
I can guess why in one attempt. You think she condemned you as a Catholic. She didn't. She condemned the Catholic system of belief. Big difference.

Romanism is now regarded by Protestants with far greater favor than in former years. In those countries where Catholicism is not in the ascendancy, and the papists are taking a conciliatory course in order to gain influence, there is an increasing indifference concerning the doctrines that separate the reformed churches from the papal hierarchy; the opinion is gaining ground that, after all, we do not differ so widely upon vital points as has been supposed, and that a little concession on our part will bring us into a better understanding with Rome. The time was when Protestants placed a high value upon the liberty of conscience which had been so dearly purchased. They taught their children to abhor popery and held that to seek harmony with Rome would be disloyalty to God. But how widely different are the sentiments now expressed!


The defenders of the papacy declare that the church has been maligned, and the Protestant world are inclined to accept the statement. Many urge that it is unjust to judge the church of today by the abominations and absurdities that marked her reign during the centuries of ignorance and darkness. They excuse her horrible cruelty as the result of the barbarism of the times and plead that the influence of modern civilization has changed her sentiments. [564]


Have these persons forgotten the claim of infallibility put forth for eight hundred years by this haughty power? So far from being relinquished, this claim was affirmed in the nineteenth century with greater positiveness than ever before. As Rome asserts that the "church never erred; nor will it, according to the Scriptures, ever err" (John L. von Mosheim, Institutes of Ecclesiastical History, book 3, century II, part 2, chapter 2, section 9, note 17), how can she renounce the principles which governed her course in past ages?
 
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She had a head injury which I think greatly impacted her thinking IMHO.
So a head injury caused her to know years ahead of science that cancer was caused by an infectious agent and become a top 100 woman writer of all time?
 
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Here is an article written by Ellen White in 1904 on the training for ministry in the SDA church. Look at how she upholds the love of God.

The true worker in the cause of God will banish from the mind, as impious, every thought of inherent merit. Even the heavenly angels take to themselves no praise. Throughout the heavenly courts, in one grand chorus, resounds their acknowledgment to the Creator: “All things come of thee, and of thine own have we given thee.” Those who live on this earth should unite with the heavenly host in ascribing all praise and glory to the Creator. No man has the least cause for boasting or self-exaltation, even when he does his very best. Man often fails of doing his duty, leaving undone a vast amount that a close connection with God would have enabled him to do. Constantly God is laboring to make up man's deficiencies. Even repentance is brought about through the application of grace. The natural heart feels no need of repentance. The tears that fall from the eyes of man because of sorrow for his sinfulness and because of sympathy for other sinners, start unbidden. They are as dew from eyes that belong to God. Man's sighs are but indications of the deep feeling in a heart that is God's. The good resolutions we make are but the expression of desires that are his. The reformed life is but the better employment of a life that has been ransomed by the sacrifice of his Son Jesus. No credit should we take to ourselves for anything that we may do. “All things come of thee,” we shall eventually be led to acknowledge to our Creator, “and of thine own have we given thee.”
Faith, too, is the gift of God. Faith is the assent of man's understanding to God's words, that binds the heart to God's service. And whose is man's understanding, if it be not God's? Whose the heart, if it be not God's? To have faith, is to render to God the intellect, the energy, that we have received from him; therefore those who exercise faith do not themselves deserve any credit. Those who believe so firmly in a Heavenly Father that they can trust him with unlimited confidence; those who by faith can reach beyond the grave to the eternal realities beyond, must pour forth to their Maker the confession, “All things come of thee, and of thine own have we given thee.”
No man has a right to call himself his own. And no man possesses any good thing that he can call his own. Every man, every thing, is the property of the Lord. All that man receives from the bounty of heaven is still the Lord's. Whatever knowledge he has that in any way helps him to be an intelligent workman in God's cause, is from the Lord, and should be imparted by him to his fellow men, in order that they, too, may become valuable workmen. He to whom God has entrusted unusual gifts should return to the Lord's storehouse that which he has received, by freely giving to others the benefit of his blessings. Thus God will be honored and glorified.
In all the departments of the Lord's work, every laborer is to help his fellow laborers. The workers who have had many advantages are to take no credit to themselves, nor are they to think that they deserve praise for using in the service of Christ the talents that he has entrusted to them. They should realize that the non-employment of their capabilities would place upon them a burden of guilt, making them deserving of God's just displeasure and severest judgments. Heavenly bestowed capabilities should not be made to serve selfish ends. Every energy, every endowment, is a talent that should contribute to God's glory by being used in his service. His gifts are to be put out to the exchangers, that he may receive his own, with usury. The talents that fit a man for service are entrusted to him not only that he may be an acceptable worker himself, but that he may also be enabled to teach others who in some respects are deficient. If in their ministry those whom we teach develop an energy and an intelligence even superior to that which we possess, we should be led to rejoice over the privilege of having a part in the work of training them. But there is danger that some in positions of responsibility as teachers and leaders, will act as if talent and ability have been given to them only, and that they must do all the work in order to make sure that it is done aright. They are liable to find fault with everything not originated by themselves. A great amount of talent is lost to the cause of God because many laborers, desiring to be first, are willing to lead, but never to follow. Although they closely scrutinize and criticize all that any one else does, they are in danger of regarding that which goes forth from their hands as perfect. To those upon whom God has bestowed many talents, I am instructed to say: Help the inexperienced; discourage them not. Take them into your confidence; give them fatherly counsel, teaching them as you would teach students in a school. Watch not for their mistakes, but recognize their undeveloped talents, and train them to make a right use of these powers. Instruct them with all patience, encouraging them to go forward and to do an important work. Instead of keeping them engaged in doing things of minor importance, give them an opportunity to obtain an experience by which they may develop into trustworthy workers. Much will thus be gained to the cause of God. Those placed in positions of responsibility should patiently seek to make others familiar with all parts of the work. This will reveal that they do not desire to be first, but that they are glad to have others become acquainted with details, and to become as efficient as they are. Those who faithfully fulfil their duty in this respect, will, in time, have standing by their side a large number of intelligent workers whom they have trained. Should they shape matters in accordance with narrow, selfish conceptions, they would stand almost alone. Some workers are incapable of filling positions that others can fill. Many who might have been able to fill positions of trust, have not disciplined themselves, nor have they done that which they could have done from day to day to meet the increasing demands of the present time. Others are able to bear responsibilities, and would do so, if they were encouraged, and if there were some one who, with patience, kindness, and forbearance, would teach them how to work. Ministers should show a real earnestness in helping such persons succeed, and should put forth persevering effort to develop talent. The inexperienced are in need of wise generals who by prayer and personal effort will encourage and help them to become perfect in Christ Jesus, wanting in nothing. This is the work which every gospel minister should endeavor to do, but which some are liable to fail of doing. Men of varied talents and superior ability will unite with us in the work of giving the last message of mercy to a perishing world. My brethren, learn to see and to recognize ability and talent in others besides yourselves. Be examples to the flock. Give to others the benefit of all the knowledge that the Lord has given to you. He has entrusted you with this knowledge, that you may impart it. With the same liberality and freedom that the Master teaches you, teach others, binding them to your heart by love and tenderness. Let no one seek to exalt himself by talking of his deeds, extolling his ties, displaying his knowledge, and cultivating self-conceit. Let no one strive to tear down the work of others who do not labor according to his standard. The heavenly Teacher extends to us the invitation: “Come unto me, all ye that labor and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest. Take my yoke upon you, and learn of me; for I am meek and lowly in heart: and ye shall find rest unto your souls. For my yoke is easy, and my burden is light.” Christ was never self-confident or conceited. He declared. “The Son can do nothing of himself, but what he seeth the Father do: for what things soever he doeth, there also doeth the Son likewise.”
A great work is to be done in America and in other lands. As yet, many fields are still unentered. The most important duty before those who have been sent out into the fields at home and abroad as missionaries, is to combine the forces and strength of all whom they can possibly enlist as helpers. Thus they can make mighty strokes for their Master. God will do a great work in every part of the field, if with willing hearts his servants put self out of sight, and labor for his glory

Trying to copy and paste out of websites is just getting harder and harder. I can't get this to look right no matter what I try.
 
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DamianWarS

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Her writings are Biblical. You and I disagree on that. I don't accept your reading of scripture.

I can't "prove" that to you as scriptural beliefs are based on faith and spiritual discernment, but the fruits of her life fit with those of Christ's life in her service for her fellow man. That is very telling. Someone who is not led by God will have the attributes of Satan not the attributes of God.

We can't just gloss over this as "agree to disagree" these are doctrinal issues and are relavant to the authenticity of Ellen White's teaching.

The bible does not segment law so that we may give law preferential treatment. Christ does not segment law and speaks of it uniformly, without descrimination

Mat 5:18-19
For truly I tell you, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished. Therefore anyone who sets aside one of the least of these commands and teaches others accordingly will be called least in the kingdom of heaven, but whoever practices and teaches these commands will be called great in the kingdom of heaven.

Christ is quite clear that law remains the same, every single stroke, with no special divisions and segments. You can't have it both ways and use this to defend a segmented law while not teach or keep all of it. It's all or nothing, not "ala carte"

This is an important issue because anyone who teaches we should divide law up so we may give it preferencial treatment is in direct conflict with Christ's words and is a false teaching. They can be generous, they can have little education, they can be renowned over the world, but this doesn't change the false teaching. The bible plainly and explicitly does not teach this.

Here are other important factors I would point out to you. Ellen White never got beyond the third grade because of a severe injury. yet she has been named as one the top 100 of the most influential woman authors of all time. How does that happen without divine intervention? How did she know cancer was caused by an infectious agent? That wasn't verified by science until the 1970's and the discovers won the Nobel prize for their work. She also said meat eating is a cause of cancer, and that is only now being verified by science. How did she know all these things without divine intervention?

"I have been shown that children who practice self-indulgence ... If the practice is continued ... by numerous pains in the system and various diseases such as affection of the liver and lungs, neuralgia, rheumatism, affection of the spine, diseased kidneys, and cancerous humors" source

She thought touching yourself caused cancer too (and a pile of other things). touching yourself doesn't cause cancer (or the pile of other things she claimed). I'm in a position where I'm unable to trust what Ellen White said either spoken or written because of her reputation for the nonsense. There's just too many weeds to sort out and it tends to tarnish the major points.

It's my opinon Ellen White had a lot to say without a lot of discernment and has had hits and misses. I think over zealous times and over zealous people gave her a platform to be over zealous and she delivered. Perhaps head injury effected her frontal lope and caused her to respond without a filter which was interpreted as prophetic or power from the spirit.

She may have had some authentic moments in prophecy, I really can't say, but I fail to see what the fruit of these prophecies are. So she said cancer is caused by infections agents, this wasn't verified until the 70s but it certainly wasn't a new conversation in the 70s and the conversation was already well along. And that's where due diligence is missing because telling me who proved it doesn't mean a whole lot, why not do the research and tell me when this idea started to get traction in the scientific community.

But what is the goal behind such prophecies? If the goal is to prove she is the real deal so you better listen to her teaching then since the teaching is false anything that leads us to the teaching is also false. To me this all eventually boils down where does this lead me to? And does that goal require subscribing to Adventist teaching? Because if it does then the prophecies are self serving to fit an Adventist agenda. They should be pointing to the glory of God not the glory of a banner we're waving.
 
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We can't just gloss over this as "agree to disagree" these are doctrinal issues and are relavant to the authenticity of Ellen White's teaching.

The bible does not segment law so that we may give law preferential treatment. Christ does not segment law and speaks of it uniformly, without descrimination

Mat 5:18-19
For truly I tell you, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished. Therefore anyone who sets aside one of the least of these commands and teaches others accordingly will be called least in the kingdom of heaven, but whoever practices and teaches these commands will be called great in the kingdom of heaven.

Christ is quite clear that law remains the same, every single stroke, with no special divisions and segments. You can't have it both ways and use this to defend a segmented law while not teach or keep all of it. It's all or nothing, not "ala carte"

This is an important issue because anyone who teaches we should divide law up so we may give it preferencial treatment is in direct conflict with Christ's words and is a false teaching. They can be generous, they can have little education, they can be renowned over the world, but this doesn't change the false teaching. The bible plainly and explicitly does not teach this.



"I have been shown that children who practice self-indulgence ... If the practice is continued ... by numerous pains in the system and various diseases such as affection of the liver and lungs, neuralgia, rheumatism, affection of the spine, diseased kidneys, and cancerous humors" source

She thought touching yourself caused cancer too (and a pile of other things). touching yourself doesn't cause cancer (or the pile of other things she claimed). I'm in a position where I'm unable to trust what Ellen White said either spoken or written because of her reputation for the nonsense. There's just too many weeds to sort out and it tends to tarnish the major points.

It's my opinon Ellen White had a lot to say without a lot of discernment and has had hits and misses. I think over zealous times and over zealous people gave her a platform to be over zealous and she delivered. Perhaps head injury effected her frontal lope and caused her to respond without a filter which was interpreted as prophetic or power from the spirit.

She may have had some authentic moments in prophecy, I really can't say, but I fail to see what the fruit of these prophecies are. So she said cancer is caused by infections agents, this wasn't verified until the 70s but it certainly wasn't a new conversation in the 70s and the conversation was already well along. And that's where due diligence is missing because telling me who proved it doesn't mean a whole lot, why not do the research and tell me when this idea started to get traction in the scientific community.

But what is the goal behind such prophecies? If the goal is to prove she is the real deal so you better listen to her teaching then since the teaching is false anything that leads us to the teaching is also false. To me this all eventually boils down where does this lead me to? And does that goal require subscribing to Adventist teaching? Because if it does then the prophecies are self serving to fit an Adventist agenda. They should be pointing to the glory of God not the glory of a banner we're waving.
So, you have joined the wold in agreeing there is nothing wrong with giving in to lust for it is nothing but lust. That's your privelige but I disagree with you very strongly and since I believe her I will go along with her analysis. There is no research to prove or disprove her position but I'll go along with God as He knows an infinite amount more than I do.
 
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Bob S

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Gary, are you aware that there is no such thing as a tithing requirement in the new covenant? Are you aware that in the old covenant only the ones who raised livestock and or produce had to pay tithe? The Levites paid tithe on the tithe they received from the other tithe payers. Jesus and the disciples would not have been tithe payers. Yet Ellen grasped on to the tithing system that is used by the SDA church immediately when approached. Then she went on to have "visions" that reprimanded those who didn't p[ay up, telling them they would lose their eternal inheritance. She took God's plan for Israel and made it into a requirement for all members, then telling them if they didn't they would go to Hell. This was/is not Biblical and it is Ellen that went to Hell for lying to her flock.

Yes, Ellen wrote many flowering books and articles. That, in its self, does not make on a prophet. Prophets do not make blatant mistakes like the one in Genesis where she wrote that the Tower of Babel was built to keep them safe if God ever created another flood. That is opposed to what scripture tells us and God said He would never flood the world again. Just another of the many things she wrote that were not true.
 
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Leaf473

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Right. so much of a genius she guessed many years ahead of science. I have to chuckle at that assertion.
I wasn't talking about the science part, I was talking specifically about the situation of someone who can barely read and write who then writes some literature that has a large impact.
 
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Gary K

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Gary, are you aware that there is no such thing as a tithing requirement in the new covenant? Are you aware that in the old covenant only the ones who raised livestock and or produce had to pay tithe? Jesus and the disciples would not have been tithe payers. Yet Ellen grasped on to the tithing system that is used by the SDA church immediately when approached. Then she went on to have "visions" that reprimanded those who didn't p[ay up, telling them they would lose their eternal inheritance. She took God's plan for Israel and made it into a requirement for all members, then telling them if they didn't they would go to Hell. This was/is not Biblical and it is Ellen that went to Hell for lying to her flock.

Yes, Ellen wrote many flowering books and articles. That, in its self, does not make on a prophet. Prophets do not make blatant mistakes like the one in Genesis where she wrote that the Tower of Babel was built to keep safe if God ever created another flood. That is opposed to what scripture tells us and God said He would never flood the world again. Just another of the many things she wrote that were not true.
So because she disagrees with you she's a false prophet.

Gen 11:1 And the whole earth was of one language, and of one speech.
Gen 11:2 And it came to pass, as they journeyed from the east, that they found a plain in the land of Shinar; and they dwelt there.
Gen 11:3 And they said one to another, Go to, let us make brick, and burn them throughly. And they had brick for stone, and slime had they for morter.
Gen 11:4 And they said, Go to, let us build us a city and a tower, whose top may reach unto heaven; and let us make us a name, lest we be scattered abroad upon the face of the whole earth.
Gen 11:5 And the LORD came down to see the city and the tower, which the children of men builded.

Why do you think they wanted to build a tower that reached to heaven? Just because? Or did they not trust God not to send another flood, as they knew the first flood came because of the evil men practiced before the flood?

Your reasoning is very poor
 
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I wasn't talking about the science part, I was talking specifically about the situation of someone who can barely read and write who then writes some literature that has a large impact.
So you want to separate the evidences of God's work in her life and ignore that which shows she was a true prophet so you can call her a false prophet. Why?
 
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Bob S

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So because she disagrees with you she's a false prophet.
No, no, no Gary, it is because Ellen disagrees with the Bible. I could care less. I just wanted you to know the real truth. but you seem to be letting it go in one ear and out the other, Too bad.
Why do you think they wanted to build a tower that reached to heaven? Just because? Or did they not trust God not to send another flood, as they knew the first flood came because of the evil men practiced before the flood?

Your reasoning is very poor
It is not for me to reason why, it is what the Bible is telling us. The Bible was not asking us a question, it is giving us a answer. Ellen refused to use the Bible answer and make up an answer of her own.

What do you mean "poor reasoning". You are the one who will not reason. SDAs have certainly done a job on you.
 
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Gary K

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No, no, no Gary, it is because Ellen disagrees with the Bible. I could care less. I just wanted you to know the real truth. but you seem to be letting it go in one ear and out the other, Too bad.

It is not for me to reason why, it is what the Bible is telling us. The Bible was not asking us a question, it is giving us a answer. Ellen refused to use the Bible answer and make up an answer of her own.

What do you mean "poor reasoning". You are the one who will not reason. SDAs have certainly done a job on you.
No, SDAs have not "done a job" on me.

I've posted evidence on this thread that demonstrates the only way Ellen White could have known what she did is through divine revelation. God doesn't give that kind of revelation to false prophets. Why? Because they don't have any connection with God.
 
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Leaf473

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So you want to separate the evidences of God's work in her life and ignore that which shows she was a true prophet so you can call her a false prophet. Why?
I don't want to call her a false prophet, and I didn't.

That would probably be against CF rules.

"Examples of inflammatory words/phrases... false prophet..."

_____________
Edit: I did want to observe that when a person with little ability to read and write goes on to write literature that has a big impact, it doesn't necessarily follow that the person was given the message contained in the literature by God.
 
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Gary K

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I don't want to call her a false prophet, and I didn't.

That would probably be against CF rules.

"Examples of inflammatory words/phrases... false prophet..."

_____________
Edit: I did want to observe that when a person with little ability to read and write goes on to write literature that has a big impact, it doesn't necessarily follow that the person was given the message contained in the literature by God.
So? The overall impact of of what you said strongly implies your desire to keep rejecting her as a false prophet. You don't have to say the exact words to make your meaning clear.
 
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