Was Ellen White a true or false prophet?

[Gary K]

Ellen White wrote a 5 book series titled The Conflict of the Ages about the history of the war between Christ and Satan and it's ultimate end.

The first and last sentences in the series exactly are the same. God is love.

 

[DamianWarS]

I asked for specific questions so it's possible to answer them in a reasonable amount of time and typing and I explained why.

I guess we'll just have to go through the Biblical tests for a prophet as you ignore what I asked.

Sure, i'll extract a question from my comment

What authority does Ellen White have to add on to scripture that which scripture does not reveal? This works on the little things like conversations God has with angels and it works on a major things like on doctrinal levels.

I'm not certain what you mean by a biblical test for a prophet and it would probably be better to just list the conditions you are using.

Deu 18:22 says:
If what a prophet proclaims in the name of the Lord does not take place or come true, that is a message the Lord has not spoken. That prophet has spoken presumptuously, so do not be alarmed.

This should be simple, does everything that Ellen White said come true? But it seems to be a matter of contention. So that we can agree on this, what is the condition of a true/false claim?

 

[Gary K]

Sure, i'll extract a question from my comment

What authority does Ellen White have to add on to scripture that which scripture does not reveal? This works on the little things like conversations God has with angels and it works on a major things like on doctrinal levels.

I'm not certain what you mean by a biblical test for a prophet and it would probably be better to just list the conditions you are using.

Deu 18:22 says:
If what a prophet proclaims in the name of the Lord does not take place or come true, that is a message the Lord has not spoken. That prophet has spoken presumptuously, so do not be alarmed.

This should be simple, does everything that Ellen White said come true? But it seems to be a matter of contention. So that we can agree on this, what is the condition of a true/false claim?

Yes, except for conditional prophecies such as Jonah's,

Exactly what I have said in my last post. A true prophet will be scriptural and the fruits of their work will be in harmony with Jesus' words and works. You will reject her because you do not believe in the Sabbath.

 

[Gary K]

I have more to say about Ellen White.

Jesus said that by their fruits ye will know them. This is very true of Ellen White's life work. Her book The
Desire of Ages has recived a lot of praise from non SDAs. Catholic preists have endorsed it, and if you know anything about the beliefs of SDAs you understand why there is so much antipathy towards SDAs from the Catholic side. So the fact that Catholic priests have endorsed her book on the life of Christ says a lot about the power of the Spirit being found in it. Many non SDAs have said it is the best book on the life of Christ ever wtitten.

The same is true in my conversion. I was brought to Jesus for the first time in my life by her telling the story of Jesus. I read nothing else. No scripture other than the constant scripture found in her writings. She teaches a concept of salvation that is relational in nature. This is the scriptural view of salvation. No theology can save us. Only Jesus, through the work of the HS. can do that.

Joh 17:1 These words spake Jesus, and lifted up his eyes to heaven, and said, Father, the hour is come; glorify thy Son, that thy Son also may glorify thee:
Joh 17:2 As thou hast given him power over all flesh, that he should give eternal life to as many as thou hast given him.
Joh 17:3 And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.

The entire chapter is about knowing the Father and the Son and the fact that both of them will come and live within us.

Joh 17:20 Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their word;
Joh 17:21 That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me.
Joh 17:22 And the glory which thou gavest me I have given them; that they may be one, even as we are one:
Joh 17:23 I in them, and thou in me, that they may be made perfect in one; and that the world may know that thou hast sent me, and hast loved them, as thou hast loved me.

John wrote a great deal about a love relationship with God in his 3 small books just before Revelastion. This is also taught in the OT.

Isa_50:1 Thus saith the LORD, Where is the bill of your mother's divorcement, whom I have put away? or which of my creditors is it to whom I have sold you? Behold, for your iniquities have ye sold yourselves, and for your transgressions is your mother put away.

Isa_54:5 For thy Maker is thine husband; the LORD of hosts is his name; and thy Redeemer the Holy One of Israel; The God of the whole earth shall he be called.

Jer_31:32 Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they brake, although I was an husband unto them,

This is how God describes His desired relationship with His followers under both covenants. It's a very intimate relationship. Thwere is no more intimate human relationship than marriage. Yet even that fails to adequately describe in full terms the relationship He desires with all of us as He can know us much better than our spouses ever will as He an read each and every thought we have. This is a very large part of what Ellen White teaches. In fact it is the basis of all her writings.

That relationship with God and His infinite power over sin is what brought me out of drug adiction. I was still addicted psychologically to the extent that if I walked down the street and smelled pot smoke on someone I would get all the physical symptoms of being high, yet my desire to get high was gone. It was dwecades later that God was able to finally break the chains of my dependency on drugs because of the effects of all the abuse I went throujgh. Others have gone through worse than I did, but the fact that I had no one in my immediate family to relate to and who truly cared about me enough to put out any effort to get to know who I am was extremely damaging for me. In effect I grew up completely alone. That is not a pleasant place to be.

I felt no one cared outside of God, and God designed us to be socal beings who need caring relationships with others. That's part of being made in His image. He desires our love and our friendship and His love and friendship is what makes us complete when we are fi ally able to accept it. That healing is sanctification and remakes back into His image. It casn take decades if we've been really scarred by sin, but He can do it if we will only allow Him to. Remember, Jesus told His disciples, let not your heart be troubled. Don't allow yourself to become discouraged. Press closer to Jesus. Spend more time with Him in prayer and Bible study. Ask for the pressence of the HS every time you open His word. Ask Him to come and take control of your life every day. If you will do that you will find yourself changing every day. It;s wny Paul stressed righteousness by faith so strongly.

What I hasve beren relating are the fruits of Ellen White's life work. That is the grestest reason for me believing her to be a true prophet, and why no one will ever be able to tell me differently. I God because of her and knowing God has radically changed my life for the better.

 

[DamianWarS]

Yes, except for conditional prophecies such as Jonah's,

Exactly what I have said in my last post. A true prophet will be scriptural and the fruits of their work will be in harmony with Jesus' words and works. You will reject her because you do not believe in the Sabbath.

So when is something called "conditional" and something not? Rather than look at conditional claims in practice they are unverifiable, or claims that have yet to come to pass it would be best to view these claims as inconclusive rather than a tick for or against.

there also seems to be disagreements with some of the prophecies claimed as failed or conditional. Let's call a spade and spade here and defaulting to "conditional" when something doesn't work out may seem insincere. So who get's to decide if something is true or not true? Conditional or not conditional? Considering we should not count the unverifiable as mentioned above do you have some examples of prophecies that are verified?

When it relates to shaping doctrine my issue is claims that perhaps are thematically biblical but infact are adding information that bible cannot support. For example lableing law as moral, health, etc... so we may descriminately approach law or give it preferencial treatment may feel biblical but it in fact is never revealed this way. Then conflating each NT "God's commandments" with this cut up law also doesn't feel very sincere and not honestly approaching the text.

So if it is by Ellen White's word that these things are this way (or any other individual outside the bible) I would have to reject it and call it a false teaching.

 

[tampasteve]

Ellen White wrote a 5 book series titled The Conflict of the Ages about the history of the war between Christ and Satan and it's ultimate end.

The first and last sentences in the series exactly are the same. God is love.

Many well meaning Christian authors write great historical fiction books, with messages that align with scripture - but they are still historical fiction and should be read as such.

 

[Gary K]

Many well meaning Christian authors write great historical fiction books, with messages that align with scripture - but they are still historical fiction and should be read as such.

Hey Steve. How are you? Well, I hope.

Historical fiction full of scripture and that completely changes people's lives? That kind of fruit?

 

[tampasteve]

Hey Steve. How are you? Well, I hope.

I am doing well, thank you for asking, I sincerely hope that you are as well.

Historical fiction full of scripture and that completely changes people's lives? That kind of fruit?

Sure, there are whole genera of historical fiction, both Christian and not. Admittedly EGW's writings were/are treated differently, but they were composed in a different time period that saw other similar writings elevated as truth and not fiction and the authors presented them as such, unlike current historical fiction writers (for the most part).

 

[Gary K]

So when is something called "conditional" and something not? Rather than look at conditional claims in practice they are unverifiable, or claims that have yet to come to pass it would be best to view these claims as inconclusive rather than a tick for or against.

there also seems to be disagreements with some of the prophecies claimed as failed or conditional. Let's call a spade and spade here and defaulting to "conditional" when something doesn't work out may seem insincere. So who get's to decide if something is true or not true? Conditional or not conditional? Considering we should not count the unverifiable as mentioned above do you have some examples of prophecies that are verified?

When it relates to shaping doctrine my issue is claims that perhaps are thematically biblical but infact are adding information that bible cannot support. For example lableing law as moral, health, etc... so we may descriminately approach law or give it preferencial treatment may feel biblical but it in fact is never revealed this way. Then conflating each NT "God's commandments" with this cut up law also doesn't feel very sincere and not honestly approaching the text.

So if it is by Ellen White's word that these things are this way (or any other individual outside the bible) I would have to reject it and call it a false teaching.

So, because you have rejected a Biblical teaching makes her a false prophet? The vast majority of Sunday keepers reject her writings. But that doesn't make her a false prophet. That doesn't nullify the fruits of her writings either. There are a lot of people whose lives have been changed by her writings. Just because you don't know them doesn't mean they don't exist. Look at the fruit's of Christ's life. Did the Pharisee's and Sadducee's rejection of Jesus nullify the fruits of His life?

I can point you to evidence, overwhelming evidence in my opinion, of the fruits of her relationship with God in which she revealed secrets of people she had never met or seen and exposed them as frauds. She also did things while in vision that are humanly impossible. She once held a family Bible, which in those days weighed 15 lbs or so over her head for hours, and she was a frail woman in her younger years due to a severe injury she received as a child, and while doing that turned to and pointed to scripture she couldn't see and quoted it word for word as it was above her eye level. She also didn't breathe during her visions and yet survived and spoke for extended periods of time. Can you do that? I know I can't.

Further evidence is that because of the injury she received she never got past the third grade. Yet she is the most widely published woman in the history of the US. How does anyone do that with only a third grade educastion. She was also far in advance of medical knowledge of her day. She condemned cigarette smoking when doctors were still prescribing it for its "health benefits".

 

[Gary K]

I am doing well, thank you for asking, I sincerely hope that you are as well.

Sure, there are whole genera of historical fiction, both Christian and not. Admittedly EGW's writings were/are treated differently, but they were composed in a different time period that saw other similar writings elevated as truth and not fiction and the authors presented them as such, unlike current historical fiction writers (for the most part).

What does that have to do with anything?

 

[tampasteve]

What does that have to do with anything?

I am saying that the writings EGW purports to be fact are historical fiction. Just because they contain scripture or have "changed people's lives" does not make the prophesy or worthy of elevation. About 15% of the Book of Mormon is based on scripture, including around 30% of the book of Isaiah. I think we can agree that it has "changed people's lives" but is a work of historical fiction held out to be factual.

 

[Gary K]

I am saying that the writings EGW purports to be fact are historical fiction. Just because they contain scripture or have "changed people's lives" does not make the prophesy or worthy of elevation. About 15% of the Book of Mormon is based on scripture, including around 30% of the book of Isaiah. I think we can agree that it has "changed people's lives" but is a work of historical fiction held out to be factual.

Ok, I tried to talk with you and gave you a lot of evidence outside of what what you chose to respond to and you ignored it. Only God can convince you. I can't, That's a long ways above my pay grade. Infinitely above my pay grade. I'll just agree to disagree and we'll go on our merry ways.,

Talk to you later.

 

[tampasteve]

Ok, I tried to talk with you and gave you a lot of evidence outside of what what you chose to respond to and you ignored it.

Well yes, I did not find it convincing, but then you also choose to ignore the critiques of her and the writings.

Only God can convince you. I can't, That's a long ways above my pay grade. Infinitely above my pay grade.

Fair enough, I will believe the opposite as we stand on opposite sides of the issue.

I'll just agree to disagree and we'll go on our merry ways.,

Talk to you later.

I am Ok with that, I know you are a good man that means well, I hope that I convey that to you too. We are all just doing our best to represent Him as faithfully as we can.

 

[Gary K]

The accusations have been made that I ignore everything wrong in the SDA church. Here are several prophecies Ellen White made concerning the SDA church, and I fully believe them. I see evidence of these things happening today.

The shaking is the winds of doctrine blowing through the church and the self righteousness thast exists in the SDA church because it rejected righteousness by faith back in 1888. .

The shaking of God blows away multitudes like dry leaves.—Testimonies for the Church 4:89 (1876).

Chaff like a cloud will be borne away on the wind, even from places where we see only floors of rich wheat.—Testimonies for the Church 5:81 (1882).

Soon God's people will be tested by fiery trials, and the great proportion of those who now appear to be genuine and true will prove to be base metal.... LDE p. 180

When the religion of Christ is most held in contempt, when His law is most despised, then should our zeal be the warmest and our courage and firmness the most unflinching. To stand in defense of truth and righteousness when the majority forsake us, to fight the battles of the Lord when champions are few—this will be our test. At this time we must gather warmth from the coldness of others, courage from their cowardice, and loyalty from their treason.—Testimonies for the Church 5:136 (1882).

As the storm approaches, a large class who have professed faith in the third angel's message, but have not been sanctified through obedience to the truth, abandon their position and join the ranks of the opposition.—The Great Controversy, 608 (1911)

This more evidence of the fruits of her work. God's messengers down throughout history have never said smooth words to His people. They have been very critical of those indulging in sin just like Jesus was/is for in Him there is no variableness nor shadow of turning.

Jas_1:17 Every good gift and every perfect gift is from above, and cometh down from the Father of lights, with whom is no variableness, neither shadow of turning.

 

[Gary K]

I thought I'd post a couple of quotes from Ellen White on righteousness by faith'

The first comes from the aforementioned Steps to Christ.

Many are inquiring, “How am I to make the surrender of myself
to God?” You desire to give yourself to Him, but you are weak in
moral power, in slavery to doubt, and controlled by the habits of your
life of sin. Your promises and resolutions are like ropes of sand. You
cannot control your thoughts, your impulses, your affections. The
knowledge of your broken promises and forfeited pledges weakens
your confidence in your own sincerity, and causes you to feel that
God cannot accept you; but you need not despair. What you need to
understand is the true force of the will. This is the governing power
in the nature of man, the power of decision, or of choice. Everything
depends on the right action of the will. The power of choice God
has given to men; it is theirs to exercise. You cannot change your
heart, you cannot of yourself give to God its affections; but you can
choose to serve Him. You can give Him your will; He will then
work in you to will and to do according to His good pleasure. Thus
your whole nature will be brought under the control of the Spirit of
Christ; your affections will be centered upon Him, your thoughts
will be in harmony with Him.

Anyone who is honest with themselves understands the truth of her statement on ropes of sand. Our determination to do right lasts until the next temptation comes along, or thereabouts. It is only by choosing to serve God and then relying upon His power that can we obey Him.

This next quote comes from The Desire of Ages. It comes from a chapter titled Let Not Your Heart Be Troubled which has been my favorite chapter ever since ny conversion

All true obedience comes from the heart. It was heart work with
Christ. And if we consent, He will so identify Himself with our
thoughts and aims, so blend our hearts and minds into conformity to
His will, that when obeying Him we shall be but carrying out our
own impulses. The will, refined and sanctified, will find its highest
delight in doing His service. When we know God as it is our privilege
to know Him, our life will be a life of continual obedience. Through
an appreciation of the character of Christ, through communion with
God, sin will become hateful to us.

 

[DamianWarS]

So, because you have rejected a Biblical teaching makes her a false prophet?

I reject teaching not found in the bible. SDA places discriminatory value on the law by dividing it up and then saying which ones we should keep or not keep. Law is biblical, Sabbath or the 10 commandments are biblical, clean/unclean laws are biblical, and circumcision is biblical what isn't biblical is dividing law and giving it preferential treatment, and that's the problem. the only biblical-endorsed division is from new to old. I treat the law how the bible treats the law, indiscriminately, and all part of the same system of the old.

Was White a false prophet? I don't know, it seems she had some failings I would like to see better in that position, she also profited quite a bit from her books (and the name still does), certainly if it were today she would be ranked among others who also profit from the gospel in similar manner. She also had false teachings which I detail above. What is the fruit of the prophecy/teachings? it becomes unclear who is getting the glory, as all this talk is pointing to her, whether good or bad and not to Christ.

 

[Gary K]

I reject teaching not found in the bible. SDA places discriminatory value on the law by dividing it up and then saying which ones we should keep or not keep. Law is biblical, Sabbath or the 10 commandments are biblical, clean/unclean laws are biblical, and circumcision is biblical what isn't biblical is dividing law and giving it preferential treatment, and that's the problem. the only biblical-endorsed division is from new to old. I treat the law how the bible treats the law, indiscriminately, and all part of the same system of the old.

Was White a false prophet? I don't know, it seems she had some failings I would like to see better in that position, she also profited quite a bit from her books (and the name still does), certainly if it were today she would be ranked among others who also profit from the gospel in similar manner. She also had false teachings which I detail above. What is the fruit of the prophecy/teachings? it becomes unclear who is getting the glory, as all this talk is pointing to her, whether good or bad and not to Christ.

Ellen White was very generous wi5th her money. She and her husband were very poor in the early years of their marriage and yet they supported kids who came from bad homes and took in a nephew of James White and raised him as their own. They paid for paid their education too. In her later years when she was financially sound she paid for the education of a lot of kids and gave those from bad home environments a place in her own home. Plus she gave liberally to the church for many projects.

She was a genuine Christian woman who loved God.

She underwent a lot of personal attacks throughout her life time, The following link is a short pamphlet about the attacks upon her husband questioning his honesty simply because he was married to her. You can read it at the following link if you're interested.. It was written by Uriah Smith who authored several books and was part of a committee set up by their home church at the time to investigate the claims.

Vindication of the Business Career of Elder James White

m.egwwritings.org

 

[HIM]

I am saying that the writings EGW purports to be fact are historical fiction

Would love to see why you say this Steve. What is your proof of this?

 

[DamianWarS]

Ellen White was very generous wi5th her money. She and her husband were very poor in the early years of their marriage and yet they supported kids who came from bad homes and took in a nephew of James White and raised him as their own. They paid for paid their education too. In her later years when she was financially sound she paid for the education of a lot of kids and gave those from bad home environments a place in her own home. Plus she gave liberally to the church for many projects.

She was a genuine Christian woman who loved God.

She underwent a lot of personal attacks throughout her life time, The following link is a short pamphlet about the attacks upon her husband questioning his honesty simply because he was married to her. You can read it at the following link if you're interested.. It was written by Uriah Smith who authored several books and was part of a committee set up by their home church at the time to investigate the claims.

Vindication of the Business Career of Elder James White

m.egwwritings.org

They may be but what about the teachings that cannot be biblically supported? Some systems in the SDA church hinge on dividing up law to give them preferential treatment. Let's table the discussion about which laws you think are important, and focus on the biblical support to divide up law like this.

Is this not an Ellen White teaching? Where is the biblical support to treat law this way? If no such support is there these systems are based on false teachings and in a vacuum to those systems would be supported by a false teacher.

Now Ellen White may have done this in ignorance and with the best intentions to serve the chruch and Christ but good motivations don't magic the support in the bible. It's still not there. Best case it was done in ignorance but then we have to look at all that she said with an extra layer of human layer that she has demonstrated and it's hard in the end to know what of God and what's humans error.

Perhaps instead of a prophet we can say she was an imperfect Christian that had moments of the gift of prophecy but not always operating in that office and human ambition muddied the message.

Muhammad was an excellent leader driven by the right motivates and with Christian influence. You might even say in the begining he was a nestorian Christian, but a switch happened from a discovery pre-Christian leader to a war mongering and a hate for Jews and Christians. He become corrupted and his message was not under divine influence. White perhaps has some genuine prophecies but there may have been a turning point where her message become to muddied with human influence, she seems like a genuine Christian but her ideas probably get too much attention.

 

[tampasteve]

Would love to see why you say this Steve. What is your proof of this?

Because they are written as such and in a style not dissimilar of other at the time and the evidence of her actually being a mouthpiece of God are scant. Her writings are inspirational and many, though not all, are based in an interpretation of scripture. But the exact same can be said for other writers that write in the genre. I will lean back to the Book of Mormon, 15% is direct scripture from the Bible, 30% of the book of Isaiah even. Joseph Smith was certainly inspirational and the LDS did and do give meaning to many people - indeed they believe they hear direct from God through the Prophet to this day. That does not mean it is true. The evidences that the was not a Prophet are often simply swept away in favor of evidence that she was, but she needs to be looked at as a whole, not as a part.