War

[Neogaia777]

I would. However, there is a difference between a psychotic killer, and a war. How many civilians have we killed in the past? Perhaps there is a better way. Prayer. Im sorry, i just cannot reconcile dropping bombs with the Gospel.

A terrorist or terrorist leader is not psychotic?

We try to have as little innocent, civilian casualties as possible in what we do, while they do not even think twice about that, in fact that is who they are targeting, and that's not psychotic behavior to you...?

 

[Albion]

Why then did Paul say our weapons of warfare are not carnal? and our fight isnt carnal either?

He was not talking about the kind of warfare this thread presents to us. He was speaking of standing against Satan, etc. and saying that ordinary weapons won't work for that.

 

[Greg J.]

... This thread addresses the morality of war. How can we support war? Shouldn't we be praying instead of bombing people?

This morality of such choices can't be examined from the armchair. One's only hope in being able to do so somewhat is to have been responsible for the protection of enough people than you need a large organization to communicate with them—some of whom are not only going to ignore you, but work against you. Unless you have to make the final decision for 318 million people, in the end, you won't be able to discern the morality for the POTUS. Fortunately for Americans, our presidents have access to more information than anyone on earth on which to base a decision—some of which, btw, no one else has.

If one believes in God and his willingness to act for the humble, then recognize that you are idealizing the POTUS to do something that hardly anyone on earth could do. A full-blown godly response (for someone who has not learned to recognize God's voice) would be to face allowing many Americans to die and essentially stand strong on doing nothing. God's response is not going to just be based on the actions of the leader but also upon the moral environment of the whole nation.

So while such an action would be best for the country because God would respond to it, it may not ever be visible. A truly righteous approach would get the POTUS removed from power quickly. If you were in power and were aware of that fact, would you have the strength to "die" doing what is holy instead of do something that your advisors, journalists, other government officials, and 90% of the population of the country and the world consider sane?

 

[W2L]

It doesn't matter, God will make the most "moral" side in his view to prevail anyway, regardless of anything else, including belief systems... Yet, it is usually the lesser of two evil's...

I am not approving either, I'm just saying that sometimes, it is necessary, and it is done to protect one side or the other in "some" cases, yet certainly not all...

Would you say America did the right thing by getting involved in WWII when it and doing what it did in that war, including dropping "the bomb"...?

The question now is, is our prayer effective, or do we need to wage war too?

 

[Neogaia777]

I would. However, there is a difference between a psychotic killer, and a war. How many civilians have we killed in the past? Perhaps there is a better way. Prayer. Im sorry, i just cannot reconcile dropping bombs with the Gospel.

I'm all for conquering their land by non-violent or at least, non-lethal means and capturing and imprisoning them, by building prisons in that land funded by the resources in that land, where they would not be mistreated at all, except for being imprisoned, and just for spite, making sure they have access to selected Christian books in a carefully selected prison library, and Christian television 24/7, and giving them proper medical and dental care, and have prison Psychologists and counselors to see them regularlly and evaluate them from time to time, to see if there is a change or certain conditions met for possible release, when they're not psychotic anymore...

God Bless!

 

[Neogaia777]

The question now is, is our prayer effective, or do we need to wage war too?

We should be trying to ensure that we always have the moral, "upper hand" or high ground in the conflict, and those not directly involved should be looking to ensure this in the societies in which they live...

 

[Albion]

The question now is, is our prayer effective, or do we need to wage war too?

Maybe it should have been a poll rather than a discussion with several different issues involved in it.

 

[W2L]

Then that is your own personal commitment and we understand that it is. Other people see things differently.

I dont own a gun, so i would need to let my dog chew on him while i knocked him out. See, my faith is in prayer, not guns. I believe i have addressed this topic with a lot of meat. What about prayer. Does it work? maybe i wont need to kill anyone if my faith and prayers are effective. Also, why does Paul say that our weapons are not carnal? Perhaps prayer is the answer?

 

[Albion]

All has been answered.

 

[W2L]

We should be trying to ensure that we always have the moral, "upper hand" or high ground in the conflict, and those not directly involved should be looking to ensure this in the societies in which they live...

The apostles left us an example to follow. How did they live? Did they support war too?

 

[W2L]

All has been answered.

No. Why did Paul say our weapons of warfare are not carnal? Did i miss your answer on that?

 

[Neogaia777]

We (America) did not win WWII, but God did through America, including fighting individual American soldiers... He was behind all of our success in that war, including our being able to get and use "the bomb" before Hitler did...

 

[W2L]

A terrorist or terrorist leader is not psychotic?

We try to have as little innocent, civilian casualties as possible in what we do, while they do not even think twice about that, in fact that is who they are targeting, and that's not psychotic behavior to you...?

what i mean is, there is a difference between dropping bombs overseas, and protecting my home here. Again, why did paul say our weapons are not carnal? You are contradicting Paul.

 

[W2L]

We (America) did not win WWII, but God did through America, including fighting individual American soldiers... He was behind all of our success in that war, including our being able to get and use "the bomb" before Hitler did...

We are holy, a holy nation. Not america, but the kingdom of God. Was paul wrong when he said our weapons are not carnal? Should i be arming myself?

 

[Neogaia777]

No. Why did Paul say our weapons of warfare are not carnal? Did i miss your answer on that?

Paul had the ability (through God) to confront the controversial issues of the day and time, and, by God, had the ability to wage spiritual warfare with them, with his words, often, in the court systems of that day and time... Paul had and upper hand on all the issues by God, and could, through logic and reason, change and "win the hearts" of all people including world leaders...

Pray for the ability to do that, then, DO IT... Paul already had an answer for all the controversial subjects of that day, pray for that and then do it... Pray to know the truth, then with the truth, win the hearts of all people, this is spiritual warfare...

God Bless!

 

[W2L]

Paul had the ability (through God) to confront the controversial issues of the day and time, and, by God, had the ability to wage spiritual warfare with them, with his words often, in the court systems of day and time... Paul had and upper hand on all the issues by God, and could, through logic and reason, change the hearts of all people including world leaders...

Pray for the ability to do that, then, DO IT... Paul already had an answer for all the controversial subjects of that day, pray for that and then do it...

God Bless!

Thanks for your opinion.

 

[Albion]

No. Why did Paul say our weapons of warfare are not carnal? Did i miss your answer on that?

Paul wasn't saying that the Roman government couldn't use weapons. He wasn't saying that ordinary disciples shouldn't use weapons. He was saying that when it comes to the bigger threat from the forces of evil that are not physical we have (as Christians) other weapons that WiLL work on spiritual forces and enemies. In that sense, our weapons are not those of ordinary warfare such as we are talking about on this thread.


Ephesians 6:12

12 For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places.

 

[buzuxi02]

What about prayer though? Is our prayer so ineffective that we must bomb our enemies? Why can we boast about God fixing our finances, and healing our bodies, but we lack faith that He will protect us as well? What kind of faith is this?

All western countries are secular powers, thus whether we pray or not, whether our prayers are effective or ineffective may not matter much. Organizations like NATO could care less about the efficacy of your prayers. You also have the military Industrial complex that keeps engineers and workers (many christian)employed by building war machinery a major backbone of the economy . Militaries are meant to defend the homeland from foreign aggressors instead it's now used for imperialism, policing the world, imposing our strategic and business interests, and arming proxies etc. NATO was formed as a defense against Soviet interests and was never required to be utilized. Since the collapse of the Soviet Union NATO has become an imperialist army bombing small weak nations one after the other. Christians have no say about these policies except for in the voting booth.
Thus what Christians think of war means nothing. Our military still has over 1.2 million men who freely volunteered, it is multicultural where the top planners are not even christian, other Christians believe it is the divine duty of the gentile Christians to die protecting Israel or to protect the vulnerable, etc. And any commander in chief can manipulate the people into supporting foreign adventure's in the name of the children.

 

[W2L]

Paul wasn't saying that the Roman government couldn't use weapons. He wasn't saying that ordinary disciples shouldn't use weapons. He was saying that when it comes to the bigger threat from the forces of evil that are not physical we have (as Christians) other weapons that WiLL work on spiritual forces and enemies. In that sense, our weapons are not those of ordinary warfare such as we are talking about on this thread.


Ephesians 6:12

12 For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places.

Paul says though we walk in the flesh, we dont war in the flesh. (2 Co 10)

Im going to let this go now. Its time to give it a rest. Thanks for your input brother.

 

[W2L]

All western countries are secular powers, thus whether we pray or not, whether our prayers are effective or ineffective may not matter much. Organizations like NATO could care less about the efficacy of your prayers. You also have the military Industrial complex that keeps engineers and workers (many christian)employed by building war machinery a major backbone of the economy . Militaries are meant to defend the homeland from foreign aggressors instead it's now used for imperialism, policing the world, imposing our strategic and business interests, and arming proxies etc. NATO was formed as a defense against Soviet interests and was never required to be utilized. Since the collapse of the Soviet Union NATO has become an imperialist army bombing small weak nations one after the other.
Thus what Christians think of war means nothing. Our military still has over 1.2 million men who volunteered, it is multicultural where the top planners are not even christian, other Christians believe it is the divine duty of the gentile Christians to die protecting Israel or to protect the vulnerable, etc.

Thanks for your thoughts.