want to talk about OSAS?

[Bible Highlighter]

I'm not saying that people should be told they can sin with impunity. There is the principle of sowing and reaping. Your attitude to believers, frankly, stinks. You seem to think that Christians have to be threatened and bludgeoned into behaving. It is just not true.

Then why would Jesus warn us against how looking at a woman in lust can cause our whole body to be cast into hellfire? (See: Matthew 5:28-30).

One of the characteristics of real Christians is that they hate sin. I've read many posts from Christians bemoaning their inability to overcome. You would consign them to hell because they are not as well behaved as you. Be warned. You will be judged as harshly as you judge others. Those who think they stand need to watch out in case they fall.

It does not matter if they say they hate sin. It matters if they have a proper view of sin and salvation. Believers must confess and forsake sin in order to have mercy.

“He that covereth his sins shall not prosper: but whoso confesseth and forsaketh them shall have mercy.” (Proverbs 28:13).

New Christians may not know what is acceptable to God and what is not. Someone needs to show them. God's word is a great tutor. However, just banging on about how you can't do this and must not do that is not edifying. It is heaping condemnation on people who need help, not to be judged and criticised.

On the contrary, Hebrews 12:14 says: “Follow peace with all men, and holiness, without which no man shall see the Lord:”

Most of Paul's writings begin with encouragement and with teaching about who we are in Christ and who Christ is in us. Then the issue of right behaviour is brought up. You get it back to front. We live righteously because we are already righteous. We can be holy in practice because we are holy already. Most people don't even know what holiness and righteousness are. They sure won't get any help from you to find out.

There are two aspects of salvation believers need to be focused on.

#1. God's Grace Through Faith in Jesus Christ as the Savior
(Initial Salvation, and or Foundational Salvation).
(The 1st synergistic work of GOD done in a believer).
Being saved by God's grace through faith in Jesus as ones Savior is the entrance gate to salvation, and it is the foundation of our salvation (by faith) upon which we stand. Being saved by God's grace is believing the gospel (Which is the power of God unto salvation to everyone who believes it - Romans 1:16). According to 1 Corinthians 15:1-4: The gospel is you believing that Jesus Christ died for your sins, He was buried, and He had risen again three days later for your salvation (Note: Do not let anyone sell you on another gospel besides this one). Depending on a person’s access or exposure to the Word: Being saved by God's grace will also generally include receiving Jesus as your Savior (John 1:12), and calling upon the name of the Lord (i.e. confessing with your mouth the words: “Lord Jesus” or similar equivalent - Romans 10:9) as a part of seeking forgiveness of your sins with Him by way of prayer (Romans 10:13) (Luke 15:18-21) (Luke 18:9-14). This process of salvation is without the deeds of the Law or works because it is based upon God’s mercy and grace and His redemptive work. As a result: One is born again spiritually (Note: Born again by the Spirit, and born again by water (i.e. the Scriptures - Romans 10:17, 1 Peter 1:23)). A person is foundationally or ultimately saved by God’s grace because if they happen to sin on rare occasion in their Christian walk, they do not do a good work to absolve that sin, but they confess of their sins to Jesus in order to be forgiven of that sin (1 John 1:9) (1 John 2:1) (Hebrews 4:16) (For verses on being saved by God's grace, see: Ephesians 2:8-9, Romans 4:1-6, Titus 3:4-7, 1 Corinthians 15:1-4, Luke 18:9-14, Romans 5:1-2).

#2. Sanctification of the Spirit to Live a Holy Life & A Belief of the Truth.
(The Next Step or Phase in the Salvation Process).
(The 2nd synergistic work of God done in a believer).
This is based on 2 Thessalonians 2:13-14 (Which is call of the gospel; Note: 2 Thessalonians 2:13-14 is not the gospel. It is simply the call of the gospel; For the gospel is 1 Corinthians 15:1-4).

2 Thessalonians 2:13-14

13 “…God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation
through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth:
14 Whereunto he called you by our gospel,..”​

Anyways, this secondary aspect of salvation is in two parts. It is a two part intertwined secondary aspect of salvation (Which joins the cord of Initial Salvation or Foundational Salvation in being saved by God’s grace; See note below at the end of this post). Anyways, this secondary aspect of salvation is in two parts. One does not exist without the other (Note: The following is mentioned in order according to 2 Thessalonians 2:13-14 and it is not stating that one cannot proceed the other or vise versa).

(a). Sanctification of the Spirit to Live a Holy Life is the next step or phase in Salvation for a believer who lives out their faith; This is the work of God moving in a believer's life so as to help them to live holy, and to do good works and to put away the lusts of the flesh. These good works are the works of God done through the believer, and so all boasting or praise is given to the Lord. Therefore, there is no boasting in one's own work because they are ultimately the works of God done through the believer. A believer today who obeys the Lord looks to the commands of Jesus and His followers within the New Testament primarily. For believers today are not under the 613 Laws of Moses as a whole package deal (even though certain laws have carried over into the New Testament). Basically all ceremonial laws and judicial laws in the Old Testament no longer apply. For example: Believers do not have to keep the Saturday Sabbath, circumcision, dietary laws, animal sacrifices, holy days, etc.; However, believers must keep God's Moral Laws like: Do not murder, do not steal, do not covet, do not lie, do commit adultery, etc.; Two of the greatest commands that we should focus on daily is to love God and love our neighbor which is more fully described in Mark 12:29-31. We need to worship or adore the Lord our God, preach the gospel, help the poor, love the brethren, love our enemies, and live holy lives, etc. (For Sanctification verses, see: James 2:24, James 2:17-18, Titus 1:16, Hebrews 5:9, 2 Thessalonians 2:13, Hebrews 12:14, Romans 8:1 (KJV), 1 Corinthians 16:22, Romans 8:13, etc.).

(b) A Belief of the Truth is also another secondary synergistic intertwined aspect of salvation for the believer (in addition to Sanctification of the Holy Spirit). We need to study to show ourselves approved unto God according to 2 Timothy 2:15 (KJB). We need to hold to certain correct doctrines or teachings in God’s Word. One example: It is implied that denying bodily resurrection means one’s faith is overthrown (See: 2 Timothy 2:17-18). So we need to study God’s Word (the Holy Bible) and hold to it’s truths. Now, does that mean one is not saved if they don’t know of the bodily resurrection? I don’t believe so. I believe that is what God’s grace is for. But once a key core doctrine of God’s Word is revealed to a believer, they cannot reject it. So a belief of the truth is similar to Sanctification. A Christian must grow in the knowledge of God’s Word and accept it’s beautiful fundamental truths. Does holding to all truths in the Bible save? Well, I don’t think a belief in the Nephilim saves (although it is a truth taught in His Word). But I believe there are other foundational truths we must eventually learn and accept as Christians. The Spirit will guide a believer into all truth within God’s Word.​

If you want me to be unborn again, you will have to go back 2,000 years and stop Lord Jesus from being crucified. You will have to prevent Him from rising again. I will stand before my Saviour relatively soon. I'm 70. I will have nothing to boast about. I will be declaring what Lord Jesus has done for me, not what I've done for him.

So you believe in Universalism? That everyone was saved the moment Jesus died upon the cross, and He was risen?

Besides, faith is more than just trusting in the blood of Christ according to Romans 3:25. We also have to walk in the light as He is in the light in order for the blood of Jesus to cleanse us from all sin, too (See: 1 John 1:7).

Side Note:

(A) Initial Salvation is solely in being saved by God’s grace through faith without works.

(B) Continued Salvation (or the Secondary Aspect of Salvation) is sort of like a three corded rope (or a cord of three strands). This rope involves:

Cord #1. Initial Salvation continuing in our life as one strand of the rope in our ongoing trust in God’s grace as the foundation of our salvation. Without this grace, we would be without any hope and without salvation. For Jesus is our cornerstone or foundation upon which we are ultimately saved.

Cord #2. Sanctification of the Spirit (to live a holy life by God’s power according to His Word) (Living holy by the Spirit involves putting away sin, and doing good works, and in keeping oneself pure and not by justifying sin).

Cord #3. A Belief of the Truth (Which is a continual study and belief of God’s Holy Word known as the Holy Bible).​

For Ecclesiastes 4:12 (GNT) says,
“A rope made of three cords is hard to break.”

Anyways, I hope this helps, and may God bless you all greatly today.

 

[Aussie Pete]

I'll answer one point, with respect to universalism. You know already what I believe, which is according to God's word. In one sense, I am a universalist. Lord Jesus is the Saviour of all men. He tasted death for every man. As in Adam, all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive. Before you get the firewood and matches to burn me at the stake, let me continue.

The Word also makes salvation conditional. Not all believe and accept. Salvation is available to all. As far as predestination is concerned, I agree. As far as free will is concerned, I agree. I refuse to put God in convenient pigeon holes. I live according to the law of the Spirit of Life in Christ Jesus, not by a tidy set of systematic theological doctrines.

I do not believe all people will be found in heaven one day. I do believe that some will be there by the skin of their teeth. Lord Jesus said that I must have a righteousness that exceeds that of the pharisees. Guess what. I do. His name is Jesus.

1 Corinthians 1:30 It is because of Him that you are in Christ Jesus, who has become for us wisdom from God: our righteousness, holiness, and redemption.

I can no more make myself righteous than I can redeem myself. If I could, I would not need Jesus. I am far more conscious of my need now than the day that I was born again .

 

[Aussie Pete]

You are not born again from Jesus' death on the cross. That's a personal decision made in steps of repentance.

If Jesus did not die on the cross, no one can be forgiven. If He did not rise from the dead, no one could be born again. God saves, we do not save ourselves.

 

[Rapture Bound]

SkyWriting replied [post #1410], "Thanks for the vote of confidence. I wonder how you identified my true faith from my false one though? Because you saw my death?"

Although your question wasn't addressed to me, allow me to give my two cents on the matter. Although no person can identify with certainty that you have experienced regeneration by the operation of the Holy Spirit ... God can ... and does.

Neostarwecc said, "Besides, I dare you to try walking away on your own free will, it's impossible because God has a hold of you and will always restore you back to the faith."

I would agree with his statement, except for the last part ... "back to the faith." By saying "the faith" here really seems to imply that a person could be regenerated more than once [which Hebrews 6 clearly denies ... not saying that he is using it in that manner]. I would say "will always keep you from losing all faith in Christ's imputed righteousness on your behalf". Just trying to make this important point crystal clear.

As for the rest of the statement, "Besides, I dare you to try walking away on your own free will, it's impossible because God has a hold of you."... Although this statement may seem mind-blowing, shocking, or erroneous to many, I believe the scriptural evidence clearly backs it up. Ultimately, denying Jesus Christ as our personal Lord and Savior before men, or abandoning our trust in Christ's atoning work on our behalf, would be what this "walking away" from the faith entails.

It could not mean living a lifestyle of sin before men since 1 John 3:6 clearly says otherwise, "Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen him, neither known him." True believers will not habitually, deliberately, and characteristically sin. [see my post #61 < Can a genuine, blood-bought, regenerated believer forfeit their salvation? >

And although Peter in a moment of weakness, and under extreme duress, denied his Master, that isolated act certainly did not define his character, or prove that he never exercised saving faith [and had experienced genuine H.S. regeneration]. My point is that no genuine, blood-bought follower of Jesus Christ will continually deny Him as their personal Lord and Savior before men.

Lastly, a true believer will not "walk away" from Christ [unto everlasting destruction] due to the radical change of nature that occurred at their new birth experience [see post #62 <Can a genuine, blood-bought, regenerated believer forfeit their salvation? >

(1) We must persevere in faith to enter heaven [2 Tim.2:12; Heb.3:14;10:26]. Not to persevere is to perish.

(2) God will preserve us in our faith even though at times we may doubt and wander from the path of righteousness. But He will always remain true to his promise by ensuring that none of His children will fall so far as to finally and forever fail. God will preserve us, we will in fact persevere, we will endure in faith.

Jude 1:1-2,"Jude, a bondservant of Jesus Christ, and brother of James, To those who are called, sanctified by God the Father, and preserved in Jesus Christ:"

1 Thessalonians 5:23-24," Now may the God of peace Himself sanctify you completely; and may your whole spirit, soul, and body be preserved blameless at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ. He who calls you is faithful, who also will do it."

 

[Saint Steven]

I'll answer one point, with respect to universalism. You know already what I believe, which is according to God's word. In one sense, I am a universalist. Lord Jesus is the Saviour of all men. He tasted death for every man. As in Adam, all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive. Before you get the firewood and matches to burn me at the stake, let me continue.

That's good, thanks.
The results of the acts of the two Adams is expanded in the scripture below.
Stated twice so we don't miss the point.
Adam #1 = resulted in condemnation for all people/the many were made sinners
Adam #2 (Christ) = resulted in justification and life for all people/the many will be made righteous

Romans 5:18-19
Consequently, just as one trespass resulted in condemnation for all people,
so also one righteous act resulted in justification and life for all people.
19 For just as through the disobedience of the one man the many were made sinners, so also through the obedience of the one man the many will be made righteous.

 

[Saint Steven]

That's good, thanks.
The results of the acts of the two Adams is expanded in the scripture below.
Stated twice so we don't miss the point.
Adam #1 = resulted in condemnation for all people/the many were made sinners
Adam #2 (Christ) = resulted in justification and life for all people/the many will be made righteous

Romans 5:18-19
Consequently, just as one trespass resulted in condemnation for all people,
so also one righteous act resulted in justification and life for all people.
19 For just as through the disobedience of the one man the many were made sinners, so also through the obedience of the one man the many will be made righteous.

And lest anyone should think my post is off topic, that is not the case.

Our resultant condemnation, due to the act of the one man (Adam) were nullified by the one righteous act of Christ. And the acts of both men had an effect on all humankind. Through Adam we were made sinners under condemnation. Through Christ we were (will be) made righteous by his justification on our behalf.

Our condemnation is through inherited sin, our justification is through the work of Christ on our behalf. None of this can be undone.

Therefore, once saved, always saved. It happened on the cross.

We cannot, by an act of our own free will, undo what only God can do in the first place.

 

[Saint Steven]

The only "Mortal Sin" is unbelief. This is the one sin that cannot be forgiven and leads to death.

That's an interesting, but related side topic.
What you say is the consensus of theologians. But what I find curious is how they arrived at that conclusion. They had to leave the text behind to formulate their answer to the question: "What is the unforgivable sin?"

To me, this is a great mystery. Because "the unforgivable sin" is not identified as anything other than "the blasphemy against the Holy Spirit" in the text.

And working from the text, I have concluded that this means attributing the work of God to Satan. The Pharisees had claimed that Jesus was casting out demons using Beelzebub. I can see how this claim could very well be "the blasphemy against the Holy Spirit". However, why that would be "the unforgivable sin" is not clear.

Furthermore, Jesus refers to this life and the afterlife as "ages". (times of limited duration) Meaning, every age has a beginning and an end. And is followed by another age.

So, with all this in mind, claiming OSAS is wrong on that basis is a pretty flimsy argument. IMHO

The bottom line for anyone claiming there is an unforgivable sin, is whether you have committed it, and will never be forgiven. If you don't know what it is, how could you ever know? (until is is too late?)

 

[SkyWriting]

That's an interesting, but related side topic.
What you say is the consensus of theologians. But what I find curious is how they arrived at that conclusion. They had to leave the text behind to formulate their answer to the question: "What is the unforgivable sin?"

To me, this is a great mystery. Because "the unforgivable sin" is not identified as anything other than "the blasphemy against the Holy Spirit" in the text.

And working from the text, I have concluded that this means attributing the work of God to Satan. The Pharisees had claimed that Jesus was casting out demons using Beelzebub. I can see how this claim could very well be "the blasphemy against the Holy Spirit". However, why that would be "the unforgivable sin" is not clear.

Furthermore, Jesus refers to this life and the afterlife as "ages". (times of limited duration) Meaning, every age has a beginning and an end. And is followed by another age.

So, with all this in mind, claiming OSAS is wrong on that basis is a pretty flimsy argument. IMHO

The bottom line for anyone claiming there is an unforgivable sin, is whether you have committed it, and will never be forgiven. If you don't know what it is, how could you ever know? (until is is too late?)

I came to the conclusion myself and disdain theologians, as a general rule.
"the blasphemy against the Holy Spirit"
is akin to "committing adulty" as an act of sin.
But Jesus said that even lusting for others is a sin against ones marriage.

So following that guide, then "Thinking in opposition to" the Holy Spirit would
be the foundation of the Sin. And this makes sense.

1 Samuel 16:7
But the Lord said to Samuel, “Do not look on his appearance or on the height of his stature, because I have rejected him. For the Lord sees not as man sees: man looks on the outward appearance, but the Lord looks on the heart.”

So "the blasphemy against the Holy Spirit" is in ones heart, not actually speech patterns.

So being in opposition to God in ones heart is the unforgivable sin.

On the cross, Jesus took the time in his busy day to to ask " “Eli, Eli, lema sabachthani?” that is, “My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?”.

So by this we can see that just pleading with God about hardship and strife and impending death is not an unforgivable sin. The unforgivable sin must be a persistent disdain or hatred or rebellion against Gods efforts to forgive us.
Blasphemy against the Holy Spirit.

I'd have to guess that "Blasphemy" is as close a word to "disdain" as possible. Or maybe "disdain" is not strong enough to include the "persistent" aspect of it.

 

[Saint Steven]

So following that guide, then "Thinking in opposition to" the Holy Spirit would
be the foundation of the Sin. And this makes sense.

Thanks for your detailed response.
I still find it interesting that literally everyone I have talked to, or heard from, on this subject steers away from the actual text to find answers.

How well does your theory on this fit the text?

 

[SkyWriting]

Thanks for your detailed response.
I still find it interesting that literally everyone I have talked to, or heard from, on this subject steers away from the actual text to find answers.

How well does your theory on this fit the text?

I steered away? I dun thin so. I covered what you offered, but ok:

27 But no one can enter a strong man’s house and plunder his goods, unless he first binds the strong man. Then indeed he may plunder his house.
28 “Truly, I say to you, all sins will be forgiven the children of man, and whatever blasphemies they utter, 29 but whoever blasphemes against the Holy Spirit never has forgiveness, but is guilty of an eternal sin”— 30 for they were saying, “He has an unclean spirit.”

So 28 does happen to agree with my conclusion that all "speech" is forgiven.
and 29 - is what I said
and the context? 27 meybe - that the Holy Spirit must be tied up with ropes? I'll agree with that.

 

[Saint Steven]

I steered away? I dun thin so.

I'll do the thinnin' around here, Bubba Louie. - lol
You quoted I Samuel. That appeared to be steering away to me.

And I certainly don't think the "strong man" in this context is the Holy Spirit. Casting out demons plunders Satan's house. As I understand it.

 

[SkyWriting]

I'll do the thinnin' around here, Bubba Louie. - lol
You quoted I Samuel. That appeared to be steering away to me.

Steering away from what?

 

[SkyWriting]

Thanks for your detailed response.
I still find it interesting that literally everyone I have talked to, or heard from, on this subject steers away from the actual text to find answers.

How well does your theory on this fit the text?

What actual text? I quoted actual text. Ok you want this one, and not the other one:

30He who is not with Me is against Me, and he who does not gather with Me scatters. 31Therefore I tell you, every sin and blasphemy will be forgiven men, but the blasphemy against the Spirit will not be forgiven. 32Whoever speaks a word against the Son of Man will be forgiven, but whoever speaks against the Holy Spirit will not be forgiven, either in this age or in the one to come.

We covered this. God judges the heart. Remember some people have their speech impaired. I suppose we could cut out our tongues and this way we could avoid hell? You start that trend. It could be a cult with no tongues. Why didn't anybody think of this sooner?

If you have no tongue, then God will not know that you hate the Holy Spirit. That sounds like a plan?

The words people say is not the crime.

 

[Aussie Pete]

That's an interesting, but related side topic.
What you say is the consensus of theologians. But what I find curious is how they arrived at that conclusion. They had to leave the text behind to formulate their answer to the question: "What is the unforgivable sin?"

To me, this is a great mystery. Because "the unforgivable sin" is not identified as anything other than "the blasphemy against the Holy Spirit" in the text.

And working from the text, I have concluded that this means attributing the work of God to Satan. The Pharisees had claimed that Jesus was casting out demons using Beelzebub. I can see how this claim could very well be "the blasphemy against the Holy Spirit". However, why that would be "the unforgivable sin" is not clear.

Furthermore, Jesus refers to this life and the afterlife as "ages". (times of limited duration) Meaning, every age has a beginning and an end. And is followed by another age.

So, with all this in mind, claiming OSAS is wrong on that basis is a pretty flimsy argument. IMHO

The bottom line for anyone claiming there is an unforgivable sin, is whether you have committed it, and will never be forgiven. If you don't know what it is, how could you ever know? (until is is too late?)

I agree with you. However, I also believe that the unpardonable sin is only unpardonable while the person holds to that attitude. If they have a change of heart, they can be forgiven.

God has only one primary judgement. Is the person before Him alive or dead? Everything else is a subtext, so to speak. The most noble sinner is disqualified while the one born again accepted, no matter how lacking in fruit he might be.

 

[SkyWriting]

And working from the text, I have concluded that this means attributing the work of God to Satan. The Pharisees had claimed that Jesus was casting out demons using Beelzebub. I can see how this claim could very well be "the blasphemy against the Holy Spirit". However, why that would be "the unforgivable sin" is not clear.

Because the Holy Spirit cannot be respected (how you get saved) and disrespected by the same person.

You get saved by honoring God. Not dishonoring him.

"Oh look at the stars! That must be the work of Satan. "
Yikes!

Psalm 8:3
When I look at your heavens, the work of your fingers, the moon and the stars, which you have set in place,

 

[Saint Steven]

If Jesus did not die on the cross, no one can be forgiven. If He did not rise from the dead, no one could be born again. God saves, we do not save ourselves.

Well said.
And since only God can save, we cannot un-save ourselves either. Once saved, always saved.

Colossians 1:19-20
For God was pleased to have all his fullness dwell in him, 20 and through him to reconcile to himself all things, whether things on earth or things in heaven, by making peace through his blood, shed on the cross.

 

[Saint Steven]

I agree with you. However, I also believe that the unpardonable sin is only unpardonable while the person holds to that attitude. If they have a change of heart, they can be forgiven.

God has only one primary judgement. Is the person before Him alive or dead? Everything else is a subtext, so to speak. The most noble sinner is disqualified while the one born again accepted, no matter how lacking in fruit he might be.

There is a timing aspect as well. Each in turn.

1 Corinthians 15:22-24 NIV
For as in Adam all die, so in Christ all will be made alive. 23 But each in turn: Christ, the firstfruits; then, when he comes, those who belong to him. 24 Then the end will come, when he hands over the kingdom to God the Father after he has destroyed all dominion, authority and power.

 

[returntosender]

If Jesus did not die on the cross, no one can be forgiven. If He did not rise from the dead, no one could be born again. God saves, we do not save ourselves.

I agree but we still have to take those personal steps to be born again.