want to talk about OSAS?

1an said:

My father was.

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Unusual for a pentecostal. I cut some of my teeth listening to Irvine Baxter Jr 30+ years ago and his dad was really rough. I used to hate it when he visited the church. You remind me of him a bit

RickReads said:

Unusual for a pentecostal. I cut some of my teeth listening to Irvine Baxter Jr 30+ years ago and his dad was really rough. I used to hate it when he visited the church. You remind me of him a bit

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I'm not sure about American preachers.
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1an said:

I'm not sure about American preachers.
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I`m not surprised. LOL! He was a ball of fire though, both were really. I still hear their words in my head when I need to get tough with myself.

Rachel20 said:

I've decided Pauls race isn't a picture of salvation, but of rewards at the Bema. If he used it to picture salvation, it would contradict Romans 4:4 where anything earned is counted as debt, not grace

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You don't say why you've decided that.

Running the race is all about perseverance, something that is not necessary if you have already crossed the finish line. Romans 4 doesn't contradict this as it is all about works, which I suspect we can both dismiss and still maintain our views.

Albion said:

Meaning that it's possible, after conversion, never to sin again (and thus earn salvation)??

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In theory yes, but in practice definitely not and I be very surprised if anyone achieved this. And I don't think it is about earning salvation as much as grasping hold of it and trying never to let go. Reach for the prize, don't hang around on the starting line assuming you are already there.

Jesus is YHWH said:

where does the bible say that " we must accept Jesus " as savior ?

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Romans 10:9-10
that if you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved; for with the heart a person believes, resulting in righteousness, and with the mouth he confesses, resulting in salvation.

lismore said:

Yes. Seems to me that the brothers and sisters who support 'OSAS' are falling back on the Holy Scriptures for support. Others who are against it are relying on tradition or traditional interpretations for support. So it's the solid word of God against the shifting sands of tradition, which we have seen with the current Pope, tradition can go 180 degrees in a short space of time. God Bless

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Well there is nothing wrong with traditional interpretations... as long as they are correct. Tradition I agree is not a good cause, but don't assume those that don't hold to OSAS don't apply scripture. In fact it comes down entirely to interpretation of what the scriptures say and what they mean. And everyone should apply scripture with wisdom else it is just dead words.

Something to consider: The Jews had yearly sacrifice for sin because they recognised that people sin, even unintentionally on a regular basis. We as Christians have just the one sacrifice, but that doesn't make us immune from sin, it just cleanses us of the consequences.

1an said:

We will always be welcomed back into the fold by the Good Shepherd as illustrated in the parable of the prodigal son.

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That is really important to be clear with! Once I "knew" in my heart I had blasphemed the Holy Spirit, even another Christian confirmed it was so (how on Earth he could confirm such a thing, I don't know). Anyhow in my despair Jesus met me and showed me my heart had been wrong all along. Thankful forever for his mercy! Jesus loves us all so much!

alllivesmatter said:

What osas person said they never believed? That makes no sense.

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It's often what I hear too when someone falls away - they never truly believed in the first place, i.e. they didn't lose their salvation as they didn't actually have it in the first place. It is a convenient excuse to explain those that have been saved by Jesus but then fall away and even oppose the gospel.

Kenny'sID said:

You don't have to but if I lost my salvation, I'd recommend you work to get it back, as often as you must.

Why is that a problem? The prodigal son came back, at least once.

What if one suddenly decided to live in sin, are you saying they won't lose salvation then?

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Encouraging

Swag365 said:

As soon as you recognize your error and admit that OSAS is untrue.

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"I'm right and anyone who disagrees with me is wrong" is pretty much proof that OSAS is untrue!

alllivesmatter said:

Correct, that is why I believe in OSAS.
Thanks for your post. Seems like most everyone else here has lost their sanity, lol

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I don't think it is sanity as much as comfort. OSAS requires nothing else of the believer... to the extent that they don't even have to believe any more (though clearly most of them do). When we call that into question, it breaks a fundamental support in their beliefs.

I switched gradually from one side to the other and it helped to discuss it and the issues involved and it helped to read about it. Two books by David Pawson and R.T. Kendall were very helpful in the process, one from either side of the argument (I think Kendall's book was a response to Pawson - but it is such a long time since I read either). In the end Pawson's arguments felt like a better fit both Biblically and logically, not that there were then no difficulties.

I never believed OSAS, but I do believe that The Lord works in people according to their own personalities.
From personal experience, we were forced into religious submission by an overbearing parent. It took years of backsliding/repenting to find Jesus. When reading the Gospels, I have to admit that I’m still searching!
My siblings are in a mess.

alllivesmatter said:

Explain that please?

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The Bible doesn`t use the word accept.

zoidar said:

That is really important to be clear with! Once I "knew" in my heart I had blasphemed the Holy Spirit, even another Christian confirmed it was so (how on Earth he could confirm such a thing, I don't know). Anyhow in my despair Jesus met me and showed me my heart had been wrong all along. Thankful forever for his mercy! Jesus loves us all so much!

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God bless, I love your testimony.
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RickReads said:

That still doesn`t explain how a thorn branch partakes of the Holy Ghost. I`m not settled with it because OSAS rests on the work of the Holy Ghost. I see it as a problem for the doctrine that I don`t have a good answer for.

Holy Ghost, powers of the world to come for thorns works against the OSAS ideal in my opinion.

I`ve never seen a good answer for this and I myself will try to avoid dealing with that verse. I`ve been in a position more then once where I needed to encourage someone who was troubled by the Hebrew passages in 6 & 10.

I`ve never been satisfied with the answers I am able to give. I actually have one answer I use that I haven`t seen on this board but it`s closer to being a theory then what I consider solid Biblical proof.

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In regards to partakers of the Holy Spirit (Hebrews 6:4), the word translated “partaker” can certainly refer to a saving partaking in Christ, as we read in Hebrews 3:14, yet it can also refer to a less than saving association or participation. See Luke 5:7 and Hebrews 1:9 - "comrades, companions," which describes one who shares with someone else as an associate in an undertaking. These Hebrews who fell away had obviously in some aspect shared in the ministry of the Holy Spirit, but in what way? There are other ministries of the Holy Spirit which precede receiving the indwelling and sealing of the Holy Spirit, which only genuine believers receive..

Those who fall away absolutely could have been affiliated closely with the fellowship of the church. Such people certainly may have experienced sorrow for sin, heard and understood the gospel and have given some assent to it and have become associated with the work of the Holy Spirit while around believers and have tasted the heavenly gift and the powers of the age to come. They may have been exposed to the true preaching of the word of God, yet have simply tasted and stopped there. People who have experienced these factors may be genuine Christians, yet these factors alone are not enough to give conclusive evidence that the beginning stages of the Christian life (repentance unto life, regeneration, salvation, justification, adoption etc..) have taken place for those who fell away. The experiences in Hebrews 6:4-6 are all preliminary to those decisive beginning stages of becoming a Christian, yet some draw back to perdition after receiving the 'knowledge' of the truth and do not believe to the saving of the soul, as we see in Hebrews 10:26-39.

So these certain individuals who fell away certainly may have become partakers of the Holy Spirit in his pre-salvation ministry, convicting of sin and righteousness and judgment to come by tasting the good word of God and temporarily responded to His drawing power which is intended to ultimately lead unbelievers to Christ, yet the writer of Hebrews does not use conclusive terms that these individuals were "indwelled by the Holy Spirit" or "sealed by the Holy Spirit" which is the guarantee of future inheritance. Genuine believers who truly believe the gospel are sealed in Him with the Holy Spirit who is the guarantee of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession/unto the day of redemption. (Ephesians 1:13-14; 4:30)

In Hebrews 6:7-8, we read - For the earth which drinks in the rain that often comes upon it, and bears herbs useful for those by whom it is cultivated, receives blessing from God; but if it bears thorns and briars, it is rejected and near to being cursed, whose end is to be burned. In this metaphor relating to agriculture, those who receive final judgment are compared to land that bears no vegetation or useful fruit, but rather bears thorns and thistles. We read in scripture that good fruit is a sign of spiritual life and a lack of good fruit is a sign of false believers (Matthew 3:8-10; 7:15-20; 12:33-35) so we have an indication that the evidence of one's spiritual condition is the fruit they bear (whether good or bad), suggesting that the writer of Hebrews is talking about people who are not genuine believers.

*Verse 9 sums it up for me. The writer is speaking to those truly saved (refers to them as BELOVED). He says that even though he speaks like this concerning THOSE types of people, He is convinced of better things concerning YOU. Things that ACCOMPANY SALVATION. Thorns and briars and falling away permanently do not accompany salvation.

Kenny'sID said:

Jesus's parable said they believed....period, so of course we are talking real faith. Please don't try to change the clear meaning of scripture just to win an argument.

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See post #69. - want to talk about OSAS?

Jesus is YHWH said:

I agree one is saved by belief/faith in Christ. That doesn't mean to "accept" Christ.

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I know what I do if someone offers me a free gift. I accept it, and I don't need telling. (grin.)