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[SobriaInebrietas]

Hi everyone. I haven't been around CF for a long while, so I guess you could consider me a new member.

I have been a Christian for 3 1/2 years. Most of what I understand and believe about Christianity is from a Reformed/Calvinist perspective. I am going through a tough time in my life right now and am having serious doubts and questions about my current church and some specific issues with Reformed doctrine that I don't really want to get into right now. In short I am feeling quite lost and confused.

I have been doing some reading about Luther and his life and have become very interested in what it is that Lutherans believe and practice, especially differences between Lutheranism and Calvinism. I have done a little research, but am not sure where to look for more in-depth definitions and explainations (I am afraid to ask this advice of the Reformed Forums as I would expect only highly-biased super-critical advice and resources.)

I am thinking about visiting a local Lutheran church to see what it is like, but I don't know if I should yet or even if my husband would approve.

Can anyone give me some advice about any of this?

Thanks for listening.

 

[DaRev]

Here is a link that explains the basic differences between Lutheran and Reformed theology.
http://www.lcms.org/pages/internal.asp?NavID=2242

You are certainly free to ask question in this forum. Questions can be answered generally here. If you wish more specific answers to specific questions, you may PM me and I'll be happy to assist in any way I can.

 

[Plutonius]

Remember DaRev is a Rev

P.S. I havent been on CF for awhile since they screwed up my entire account, i.e. No denomination, no profile, no nothing

 

[BigNorsk]

Well in the worship service, some Calvinists follow what is known as the regulative prinicple. Meaning if it isn't specifically authorized, then it is prohibited. Not all but some Calvinists follow this. Lutherans on the other hand operate that there are those things commanded, those prohibited and those that are neither, adiaphora, we call them or areas of freedom.

The other major difference you will see is that Calvinists approach everything with the central doctrine beind predestination. This causes problems when everything is hung based on the scrutiny of the inscrutible. Luther actually thought it dangerous to dig too deeply into predestination because it wouldn't be long before you were thinking things like God was the cause of sin and such. Or that God doesn't intend to save some or many people.

For Lutherans, the central doctrine is the doctrine of justificaion that we are saved by grace alone through faith alone solely for Christ's sake. That is the purpose of the Bible, to lead people to God.

Another thing is that Lutherans are more strictly sola Scriptura. If a question is not answered by scripture we try to leave it unanswered. If there seems to be tension between two things in scripture, we try to leave the tension. We are concerned with having biblical Christianity, not with having a neat orderly system.

Last thing I can think of is there is a general trend in Calvinism towards the denial of the supernatural. Calvin speculated that Jesus didn't miraculously appear in the upper room that for some reason he thought it more likely that Jesus made a door and suddenly walked in. Also a lot of the denial of the real presence in Holy Communion seems to come from the understanding that a body can't be in more places than one, even if it is Jesus' body.

That's a general trend. You see a lot of varience on that one.

Oh we disagree on the perseverance of the saints. Gets back to the faith. Lutherans just leave it at the doctrine of justification, you believe, you are saved. Stop believing, you aren't.


Marv

 

[Edial]

I think Marv (BigNorsk) answered it well.

I would add the following.

In plain terms, the Lutherans believe that Christ died for all yet many would reject Him.
Apparently you know that the Calvinists believe that Christ died only for the few.

That is a huge difference (in my opinion) that cannot be explained by the Calvinists using the Scriptures.
They use logic in order to explain their position.

That teaching also aborts John 3:16 (probably the most known verse in the entire Bible) to something that is very limited. "For God so loved the world" loses it's meaning, since they teach that God does not love all.

The fact that the Lutherans are more Sola Scriptura (as Marv noted) is that they (we) see the Scriptures plainly.
If Christ said "This is my body", who am I to argue?
How can I possibly prove that it is not?
And I tried, believe me .
Yet this verse bothered me when I was teaching it to be symbolic, as a Baptist.

Lutherans stress the love of God.

Calvinists stress the judgement of God.

Thanks,
Ed

 

[Edial]

...

I am thinking about visiting a local Lutheran church to see what it is like, but I don't know if I should yet or even if my husband would approve.

Can anyone give me some advice about any of this?

Thanks for listening.

This is a tough one.

I presume your husband knows that you have doubts about the Reformed theology.
How does he handle it?

Thanks,
Ed

 

[SobriaInebrietas]

Oh yay, lots of replies!

Thank you all for the answers!

This is a tough one.

I presume your husband knows that you have doubts about the Reformed theology.
How does he handle it?

Thanks,
Ed

Well, I am in and out of doubts about life in general lately (Maybe my prayer requests on my profile could explain a little about that. I have just been having an all around hard time, so of course we have discussed that aspect as well). Anyway, he is pretty gracious and understanding. I mentioned recently to him that I would like to visit a Lutheran church. He gave no objections and I think he is a little interested himself (He recently met and worked with a Lutheran that left quite an impression on him - my husband is an artist). I think I am just afraid to tell him that I am more than "a little" interested. Our current church is VERY small and half of the congregation are his relatives or lifelong friends of his. I don't know how all this is going to go over if the word gets out.

Lutherans stress the love of God.

Calvinists stress the judgement of God.

Thanks,
Ed

One of my key issues right now. I am struggling to find the love of God and the comfort of Christ in a church that stresses total depravity and guilt and judgement to excess, and to the the point that sometimes I just wish I could die already. This ominous cloud so heavily darkens the good news of the gospel that even when I read it I feel nothing but despair...

Here is a link that explains the basic differences between Lutheran and Reformed theology.
http://www.lcms.org/pages/internal.asp?NavID=2242

You are certainly free to ask question in this forum. Questions can be answered generally here. If you wish more specific answers to specific questions, you may PM me and I'll be happy to assist in any way I can.

Thanks to DaRev for the link, which has been tremendously helpful so far and very encouraging! I am still navagating the site, because there is so much information in one place! I have been reading it all day! You don't know how encouraging this is to me right now. (I even see that there are two congregations in my town!)

I will probably stick around here for a while...

 

[Plutoniua]

If you need anymore help or would like to ask questions, we are here to help

 

[Jim47]

Wanting to avoid an information overload I will only offer for the moment a link to a condensed article of faith from my church synod, there is of course more there to read and I can provide other links as well.

Just click on your choice of language (english I'm guessing ) http://www.wels.net/cgi-bin/site.pl?2601&collectionID=783

 

[filosofer]

[FONT= "Book Antiqua"]
Howdy, and welcome! Your concerns, questions are excellent. And there have been excellent responses.

One other crucial area has to do with Law and Gospel. Distinguishing these two is important, but even more important is being able to apply the right one at the right time to the right person.

Law (what we are to do and not do, and punishment when we fail)

Gospel (what God does for us in Jesus Christ)

True hope, comfort, and peace come from the Gospel, not the Law. For instance, the place for comfort is not the (double) predestination of Calvinism (which essentially is a Law to look within ourselves), but rather the cross of Jesus Christ (the Gospel which looks outside ourselves to God).

There is much more to this, but this begins to open up spiritual insight into the Scriptures and growth in your faith.

Blessings on your inquiries and searching.

[/font]

 

[SobriaInebrietas]

True hope, comfort, and peace come from the Gospel, not the Law. For instance, the place for comfort is not the (double) predestination of Calvinism (which essentially is a Law to look within ourselves), but rather the cross of Jesus Christ (the Gospel which looks outside ourselves to God).

There is much more to this, but this begins to open up spiritual insight into the Scriptures and growth in your faith.

Blessings on your inquiries and searching.

Wow! that is a lot to chew on... But exactly what I have been hoping/longing to hear. I will be praying about this... Thank you for the encouraging advice.

 

[Edial]

...
Well, I am in and out of doubts about life in general lately (Maybe my prayer requests on my profile could explain a little about that. I have just been having an all around hard time, so of course we have discussed that aspect as well). Anyway, he is pretty gracious and understanding. I mentioned recently to him that I would like to visit a Lutheran church. He gave no objections and I think he is a little interested himself (He recently met and worked with a Lutheran that left quite an impression on him - my husband is an artist). I think I am just afraid to tell him that I am more than "a little" interested. Our current church is VERY small and half of the congregation are his relatives or lifelong friends of his. I don't know how all this is going to go over if the word gets out.

If your husband has no problems for you to see a Lutheran church, see it.
Make certain however that it is not an ELCA synod. They can be extremely liberal in many ways. If you are ready to go to one, let us know and some of the people here would find a good Lutheran church in your neighborhood or outside of it, if you so choose.

And concerning your small church and the difficulties that might arise if the word gets out, I would suggest your husband handles this. These are his relatives and he himself is probably not too comfortable being under a microscope.
I do not know anyone who is.

I did read your profile and we do have a person here who is medically suffering as you do.
I'll alert her via a PM to look at your posts.

...
One of my key issues right now. I am struggling to find the love of God and the comfort of Christ in a church that stresses total depravity and guilt and judgement to excess, and to the the point that sometimes I just wish I could die already. This ominous cloud so heavily darkens the good news of the gospel that even when I read it I feel nothing but despair.

I know what you are saying.
The message of Christ is that he did not come to condemn the world, but to save it.
If one thinks that the Big God's primary interest is to judge the little Us, one loses the message of the Gospel.

Condemnation cannot save, love saves.

Thanks,
Ed

 

[DaRev]

Make certain however that it is not an ELCA synod.

She's already located a couple LCMS congregations near her.

 

[KimLCMS]

Just wanted to pop in and say welcome and I'll pray for you!

 

[Edial]

She's already located a couple LCMS congregations near her.

OK.

 

[SobriaInebrietas]

If your husband has no problems for you to see a Lutheran church, see it.
Make certain however that it is not an ELCA synod. They can be extremely liberal in many ways. If you are ready to go to one, let us know and some of the people here would find a good Lutheran church in your neighborhood or outside of it, if you so choose.

And concerning your small church and the difficulties that might arise if the word gets out, I would suggest your husband handles this. These are his relatives and he himself is probably not too comfortable being under a microscope.
I do not know anyone who is.

I did read your profile and we do have a person here who is medically suffering as you do.
I'll alert her via a PM to look at your posts.



I know what you are saying.
The message of Christ is that he did not come to condemn the world, but to save it.
If one thinks that the Big God's primary interest is to judge the little Us, one loses the message of the Gospel.

Condemnation cannot save, love saves.

Thanks,
Ed

Thank you for the advice. There is a church called St. Peter's here which is LCMS. I do want to visit and am hoping I can do so soon, which may be possible since they have an early morning service at 8 (I am still obligated to go to my current church at this point as I am a member and a member of the RCUS - but their service doesn't start until 10:30).

Well as far as my husband goes, as of last night he officially thinks I am crazy - I mean literally - that I don't know what I want/need/believe about anything, that I am simply rejecting biblical teaching that I don't like hearing because it is hard and confusing and depressing... He acts like he is afraid I am developing a Joan of Arc complex (his reaction when I mentioned that maybe I felt that this is something God wants me to do or look in to). I think he is afraid to take me seriously as we are really dealing with so much right now... He doesn't quite understand, and is quite livid about me not first seeking help from our pastor way back when I first started having these reservations about Reformed doctrine. He is refusing to take me seriously until I do some "legitimate" research and talk to our pastor and the elders about it (I imagine he thinks they are just going to be able to eplain my doubts away and bring me back to reason).

UGGGGHHHHH.... Everything pretty much blew up last night; all because for some compelling feeling I had to talk to him about this. I didn't expect this reaction at all! What a mess... This is all so ridiculous and frustrating. I don't know what I can do anymore!

 

[NoMoreHopelessness]

SobriaInebrietas,

I am very sorry to hear of your problems. Obviously your situation is fairly complex and cannot be understood from the outside but one sentence you wrote, challenged me to try and geiv you an advice.

You wrote:
" I mentioned that maybe I felt that this is something God wants me to do or look in to"

I do not know how your husband feels, but if I would hear such a thing from my wife, I would feel like I am loosing control. And my reaction would be very negative. Your husband is the spiritual head of your home. As such he is of course also responsible for your well-being and I am pretty certain that he will agree if you explain to him that you do not get what you need and that you are interested in learning more about another church and another theology. Make him see your need. We men are usually slower than women.

Anyway I wish the two of you all the best and peace and grace of God.

 

[RadMan]

http://extranos.blogspot.com/2006/11/penny-drops.html

...........It sounds weird because they (reformed) look at Baptism as an ordinance, a command, rather than a gift. No point discussing the mode, or candidates for baptism, you gotta discuss first the nature of the Gospel ie justification. Now that is also weird - to some.

No wonder it was difficult for me to get it because somewhere in my growth, I was made to focus on the Gospel as a demand rather than a declaration............

 

[SobriaInebrietas]

SobriaInebrietas,

I am very sorry to hear of your problems. Obviously your situation is fairly complex and cannot be understood from the outside but one sentence you wrote, challenged me to try and geiv you an advice.

You wrote:
" I mentioned that maybe I felt that this is something God wants me to do or look in to"

I do not know how your husband feels, but if I would hear such a thing from my wife, I would feel like I am loosing control. And my reaction would be very negative. Your husband is the spiritual head of your home. As such he is of course also responsible for your well-being and I am pretty certain that he will agree if you explain to him that you do not get what you need and that you are interested in learning more about another church and another theology. Make him see your need. We men are usually slower than women.

Anyway I wish the two of you all the best and peace and grace of God.

Thank you... Yes I agree. I know you are right, I have a hard time seeing things from his perspective, not only as a man, but as the spiritual head. I have a tendancy to get lost in/blinded by my emotions. I am trying to show him that this is important to me and something I need to deal with, but at the same time I have to understand that he feels pretty upset about all of this - he might not have seen it coming and is probably suprised.



I'm sure it will all work out in the end. I feel pretty lost and confused right now, but I know I just need to keep praying about this, reading the Bible, researching and all that...

 

[filosofer]

[FONT= "Book Antiqua"]
'Tis a wise Christian husband who listens carefully to his wife, her needs, her concerns, etc. God gives her insight that the husband cannot see. But woe to him who does not heed that quiet voice.

... speaking from experience.

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