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[DaRev]

A wife is a part of her husband. If he does not listen to her, he is ignoring a part of himself.

 

[BigNorsk]

Thank you for the advice. There is a church called St. Peter's here which is LCMS. I do want to visit and am hoping I can do so soon, which may be possible since they have an early morning service at 8 (I am still obligated to go to my current church at this point as I am a member and a member of the RCUS - but their service doesn't start until 10:30).

Well as far as my husband goes, as of last night he officially thinks I am crazy - I mean literally - that I don't know what I want/need/believe about anything, that I am simply rejecting biblical teaching that I don't like hearing because it is hard and confusing and depressing... He acts like he is afraid I am developing a Joan of Arc complex (his reaction when I mentioned that maybe I felt that this is something God wants me to do or look in to). I think he is afraid to take me seriously as we are really dealing with so much right now... He doesn't quite understand, and is quite livid about me not first seeking help from our pastor way back when I first started having these reservations about Reformed doctrine. He is refusing to take me seriously until I do some "legitimate" research and talk to our pastor and the elders about it (I imagine he thinks they are just going to be able to eplain my doubts away and bring me back to reason).

UGGGGHHHHH.... Everything pretty much blew up last night; all because for some compelling feeling I had to talk to him about this. I didn't expect this reaction at all! What a mess... This is all so ridiculous and frustrating. I don't know what I can do anymore!

Please do not judge your husband, nor your church too harshly. I know that if very difficult for you. I don't know that I would use the term crazy because that brings with it all sorts of emotional baggage, but let's admit, you do have severe problems and really aren't in the best position to judge many things because of that.

It is really, really important for you to trust your husband in your situation. After all you know that you get all sorts of feelings that aren't necessarily justified whether setting someone or something up on a pedestal or going the other way and feeling totally rejected.

I would agree with your husband in that the two of you really need to go to your current pastor and do some work together. Whatever doctrinal questions you have should be answered. Your husband needs to be there because often things don't translate well if you tell him what the pastor said. And he does need to be involved in this.

And you should talk to the pastor about your feelings and why you feel that way. Might be that you have a mistaken impression or two there.

And your husband is correct that many people instead of repenting will run and hide from the law. You haven't really shared any areas of sin in your life with us and really you don't need to. But if your feeling of rejection is because someone showed you where your behavior should be different and you are then just running, well your husband is correct that running isn't the proper response.

I suspect your desire to check out a Lutheran church kind of blindsided your husband and he's probably thinking it's one of the emotional roller coasters you've had in your life and not a well thought out decision. Realize that your condition makes life very difficult for him as well. I'm sure it has taken a toll on you as a family, and because of that too, the two of you really need to be in counseling with your pastor.

Maybe in the future you and your husband might decide together, as a family, to worship together some place else. Unless and until that time comes, I think your place is beside your husband, you have too many challenges to attempt to do this apart.

Marv

 

[SobriaInebrietas]

Please do not judge your husband, nor your church too harshly. I know that if very difficult for you. I don't know that I would use the term crazy because that brings with it all sorts of emotional baggage, but let's admit, you do have severe problems and really aren't in the best position to judge many things because of that.

It is really, really important for you to trust your husband in your situation. After all you know that you get all sorts of feelings that aren't necessarily justified whether setting someone or something up on a pedestal or going the other way and feeling totally rejected.

I would agree with your husband in that the two of you really need to go to your current pastor and do some work together. Whatever doctrinal questions you have should be answered. Your husband needs to be there because often things don't translate well if you tell him what the pastor said. And he does need to be involved in this.

And you should talk to the pastor about your feelings and why you feel that way. Might be that you have a mistaken impression or two there.

And your husband is correct that many people instead of repenting will run and hide from the law. You haven't really shared any areas of sin in your life with us and really you don't need to. But if your feeling of rejection is because someone showed you where your behavior should be different and you are then just running, well your husband is correct that running isn't the proper response.

I suspect your desire to check out a Lutheran church kind of blindsided your husband and he's probably thinking it's one of the emotional roller coasters you've had in your life and not a well thought out decision. Realize that your condition makes life very difficult for him as well. I'm sure it has taken a toll on you as a family, and because of that too, the two of you really need to be in counseling with your pastor.

Maybe in the future you and your husband might decide together, as a family, to worship together some place else. Unless and until that time comes, I think your place is beside your husband, you have too many challenges to attempt to do this apart.

Marv

Such sound and penetrating advice... These are all good suggestions that I know my husband would agree to and feel best with. He does want me to seek answers to the questions and objections I have from our pastor, which is good and reasonable; I know I have an obligation and responsibility to bring these things up - I know I can't just leave the church all of sudden on some whim and I really am not trying to do that.

Honestly the breaking point was the teachings that I disagree with became key features in the counselling that I recently begun with my pastor about my personal issues... That is when I really realized that these problems are a great source of despair and hopelessness in my life (election to damnation, limited atonement, etc.), which shouldn't be the case. The gospel is intended to comfort and help us isn't it? My counselling with our pastor so far has consisted of him exposing serious wounds and poking them with a hot iron (I am to seek repentance for alowing certain things to happen to me as a child because it was sin)....

I'm sorry, I don't want to bring anyone down... and I hope no one minds if I stick around while I try to sort all of this out...

Thank you for the advice again and to all who have answered me so far. It really has been helpful.

 

[DaRev]

Such sound and penetrating advice... These are all good suggestions that I know my husband would agree to and feel best with. He does want me to seek answers to the questions and objections I have from our pastor, which is good and reasonable; I know I have an obligation and responsibility to bring these things up - I know I can't just leave the church all of sudden on some whim and I really am not trying to do that.

Honestly the breaking point was the teachings that I disagree with became key features in the counselling that I recently begun with my pastor about my personal issues... That is when I really realized that these problems are a great source of despair and hopelessness in my life (election to damnation, limited atonement, etc.), which shouldn't be the case. The gospel is intended to comfort and help us isn't it? My counselling with our pastor so far has consisted of him exposing serious wounds and poking them with a hot iron (I am to seek repentance for alowing certain things to happen to me as a child because it was sin)....

I'm sorry, I don't want to bring anyone down... and I hope no one minds if I stick around while I try to sort all of this out...

Thank you for the advice again and to all who have answered me so far. It really has been helpful.

Prayers are being lifted for you.

 

[SobriaInebrietas]

Prayers are being lifted for you.

Thank you....

 

[seajoy]

I'm sorry, I don't want to bring anyone down... and I hope no one minds if I stick around while I try to sort all of this out...

You are not bringing anyone down. We are here to help.

 

[BigNorsk]

Yes, please stay. I don't really even know what to say to the pastor treating you like that.

Marv

 

[filosofer]

[FONT= "Book Antiqua"]
When a person struggles in the faith, the importance of faithful Christian friends who can provide wise advice is even more critical.

Plan to stay a while. We don't bite, well, if I take my teeth out, it wouldn't matter anyway.

Stay and be refreshed in the truths of God's Word.

[/font]

 

[SobriaInebrietas]

You are not bringing anyone down. We are here to help.

Thank you!

Yes, please stay. I don't really even know what to say to the pastor treating you like that.

Marv

Yah, me neither...

When a person struggles in the faith, the importance of faithful Christian friends who can provide wise advice is even more critical.

Plan to stay a while. We don't bite, well, if I take my teeth out, it wouldn't matter anyway.

Stay and be refreshed in the truths of God's Word.

Many many thanks... be sure I will have plenty of questions!

 

[Edial]

'Tis a wise Christian husband who listens carefully to his wife, her needs, her concerns, etc. God gives her insight that the husband cannot see. But woe to him who does not heed that quiet voice.

... speaking from experience.

EXACTLY what I wanted to say.

Thanks filo,
Ed

 

[Edial]

Yes, please stay. I don't really even know what to say to the pastor treating you like that.

Yah, me neither...

Unfortunately not every pastor is qualified to give advice on certain things.
It is not because they are bad people or are not learned, but because of their theology.

Theology can be as blinding as anything.

If one is asking a person to repent of sins when bad things were done to her as a child, I would say this pastor is disassociated with reality.
I am not saying he is right or wrong (I do not know the details), but he is not being realistic.

Why demand such a huge step of faith from a fragile person?
Christ never demanded that.

Let me give you an unrelated example of this.

Just recently I have seen a Baptist minister (for some 40 years) councel a couple that was living together and decided to get married and came to him for a blessing and to perform a ceremony.
(They were getting the constant advice from their friend that they should not be living tohether and get married).
At the pastor's house the topic quickly turned to the point of remarriage. Although both former spouses left them the minister refused to budge. They must wait for the spouses to return or remain single.
In the end the couple was devastated. The woman was in tears and the guy was angry.

They left the church and got married.
The minister did not want to allow them to leave and wanted to discipline them instead. I know the minister quiet well and was able to convince him that they have a right to leave and he has no right to order them to stay.

That minister was demanding a huge leap of faith from people that were fragile.

Incorrect theology does that.
Some teachers simply DO NOT KNOW how to resolve problems without demanding leaps of faith.
They say: "But the Bible teaches this".
However, they do not even realize (yet some do) that the Bible teaches some other options too.

He knew that other denominations teach differently concerning remarriage. He also knew that a topic of remarriage is debatable. However, his main purpose did not appear to be the happiness of the couple, but the teaching that he is used to.

Why did I write all this? ... just to say that if one has a title of a pastor he is not necessarily a good spiritual counselor.

Thanks,
Ed

 

[DaRev]

We don't bite,

No, we don't bite...

...hard, anyway.

 

[SobriaInebrietas]

Unfortunately not every pastor is qualified to give advice on certain things.
It is not because they are bad people or are not learned, but because of their theology.

Theology can be as blinding as anything.

If one is asking a person to repent of sins when bad things were done to her as a child, I would say this pastor is disassociated with reality.
I am not saying he is right or wrong (I do not know the details), but he is not being realistic.

Why demand such a huge step of faith from a fragile person?
Christ never demanded that.

Let me give you an unrelated example of this.

Just recently I have seen a Baptist minister (for some 40 years) councel a couple that was living together and decided to get married and came to him for a blessing and to perform a ceremony.
(They were getting the constant advice from their friend that they should not be living tohether and get married).
At the pastor's house the topic quickly turned to the point of remarriage. Although both former spouses left them the minister refused to budge. They must wait for the spouses to return or remain single.
In the end the couple was devastated. The woman was in tears and the guy was angry.

They left the church and got married.
The minister did not want to allow them to leave and wanted to discipline them instead. I know the minister quiet well and was able to convince him that they have a right to leave and he has no right to order them to stay.

That minister was demanding a huge leap of faith from people that were fragile.

Incorrect theology does that.
Some teachers simply DO NOT KNOW how to resolve problems without demanding leaps of faith.
They say: "But the Bible teaches this".
However, they do not even realize (yet some do) that the Bible teaches some other options too.

He knew that other denominations teach differently concerning remarriage. He also knew that a topic of remarriage is debatable. However, his main purpose did not appear to be the happiness of the couple, but the teaching that he is used to.

Why did I write all this? ... just to say that if one has a title of a pastor he is not necessarily a good spiritual counselor.

Thanks,
Ed

Thanks for the advice. I agree... I actually talked to a friend in the church about this (she has had similar experiences with him) and she also admits that she doesn't think he is not qualified for this kind of thing.

I have decided that I would rather not talk to him about that kind of stuff at all... (I am going to be joining a group that meets once a week for three hours that is based on a three month program to help people with my kind of problems)... Since I am kind of stuck at this point since I have already agreed to counseling with him, maybe I can just start talking to him about my concerns about theology and doctrines that I am having trouble accepting (for good reason I believe) - spiritual concerns. Since he is more knowledgable in that area (I hope!) I may as well... It couldn't hurt anything. I am already a mess as it is.

 

[Edial]

Thanks for the advice. I agree... I actually talked to a friend in the church about this (she has had similar experiences with him) and she also admits that she doesn't think he is not qualified for this kind of thing.

I have decided that I would rather not talk to him about that kind of stuff at all... (I am going to be joining a group that meets once a week for three hours that is based on a three month program to help people with my kind of problems)... Since I am kind of stuck at this point since I have already agreed to counseling with him, maybe I can just start talking to him about my concerns about theology and doctrines that I am having trouble accepting (for good reason I believe) - spiritual concerns. Since he is more knowledgable in that area (I hope!) I may as well... It couldn't hurt anything. I am already a mess as it is.

He certainly is knowledgeable about Calvinist theology.

If you need to speak to him about it, I would suggest you ask him why he thinks that God does not love all people?
He will then point out verses in the OT concerning God hating the wicked.
Then you ask him why he does not have any NT references for it? (There are none in the NT).
If he tries showing you some from NT, they clearly present that God hates their sin and not the sinner himself.

Then you might ask him: "Why does this verse tell us to love our enemies, since God also loves them?"

MT 5:43 "You have heard that it was said, `Love your neighbor n and hate your enemy.' 44 But I tell you: Love your enemies n and pray for those who persecute you, 45 that you may be sons of your Father in heaven. He causes his sun to rise on the evil and the good, and sends rain on the righteous and the unrighteous. 46 If you love those who love you, what reward will you get? Are not even the tax collectors doing that? 47 And if you greet only your brothers, what are you doing more than others? Do not even pagans do that? 48 Be perfect, therefore, as your heavenly Father is perfect.

Every Calvinist agrees that "be perfect" in v.48 means to do the same thing as the Father does ... that is to love all.

Then he might ask: "Does God change from the OT to the NT?"
God does not change. But his attitude towards the mankind changed after His sacrifice on the cross.

I hope I am not overburdening you here.

... but that is theology.

Thanks,
Ed

 

[SobriaInebrietas]

He certainly is knowledgeable about Calvinist theology.

If you need to speak to him about it, I would suggest you ask him why he thinks that God does not love all people?
He will then point out verses in the OT concerning God hating the wicked.
Then you ask him why he does not have any NT references for it? (There are none in the NT).
If he tries showing you some from NT, they clearly present that God hates their sin and not the sinner himself.

Then you might ask him: "Why does this verse tell us to love our enemies, since God also loves them?"

MT 5:43 "You have heard that it was said, `Love your neighbor n and hate your enemy.' 44 But I tell you: Love your enemies n and pray for those who persecute you, 45 that you may be sons of your Father in heaven. He causes his sun to rise on the evil and the good, and sends rain on the righteous and the unrighteous. 46 If you love those who love you, what reward will you get? Are not even the tax collectors doing that? 47 And if you greet only your brothers, what are you doing more than others? Do not even pagans do that? 48 Be perfect, therefore, as your heavenly Father is perfect.

Every Calvinist agrees that "be perfect" in v.48 means to do the same thing as the Father does ... that is to love all.

Then he might ask: "Does God change from the OT to the NT?"
God does not change. But his attitude towards the mankind changed after His sacrifice on the cross.

I hope I am not overburdening you here.

... but that is theology.

Thanks,
Ed

No, not overburdening at all! It is quite appropriate since for the past couple of weeks I have been mulling about trying to figure out what exactly it is that I am going to say to him - So yes! That is extremely helpful! I didn't ever consider that the only examples they use are from the OT and never the NT... I didn't think it mattered since as they say, God never changes his mind (which is what I know he will say).

 

[filosofer]

[FONT= "Book Antiqua"]
Two notes:

He will probably say that "all" does not mean "all-inclusive" in every context, and then use that to dismiss passages such as 1 Timothy 2:3-5 and 1 John 2:1-2.

Also, keep in mind that since he is knowledgeable about Calvinist theology, he may appear to "run circles around you" confusing you more. If at any time you feel that he has not listened, it is appropriate for you to cut short the visit. The goal isn't to satisfy a "criteria" for him or anyone else or the congregation or the church body. The goal is your salvation and especially your assurance of salvation through what Christ has done for you.

[/font]

 

[Plutoniua]

He certainly is knowledgeable about Calvinist theology.

If you need to speak to him about it, I would suggest you ask him why he thinks that God does not love all people?
He will then point out verses in the OT concerning God hating the wicked.
Then you ask him why he does not have any NT references for it? (There are none in the NT).
If he tries showing you some from NT, they clearly present that God hates their sin and not the sinner himself.

Then you might ask him: "Why does this verse tell us to love our enemies, since God also loves them?"

MT 5:43 "You have heard that it was said, `Love your neighbor n and hate your enemy.' 44 But I tell you: Love your enemies n and pray for those who persecute you, 45 that you may be sons of your Father in heaven. He causes his sun to rise on the evil and the good, and sends rain on the righteous and the unrighteous. 46 If you love those who love you, what reward will you get? Are not even the tax collectors doing that? 47 And if you greet only your brothers, what are you doing more than others? Do not even pagans do that? 48 Be perfect, therefore, as your heavenly Father is perfect.

Every Calvinist agrees that "be perfect" in v.48 means to do the same thing as the Father does ... that is to love all.

Then he might ask: "Does God change from the OT to the NT?"
God does not change. But his attitude towards the mankind changed after His sacrifice on the cross.

I hope I am not overburdening you here.

... but that is theology.

Thanks,
Ed

Malachi 3:6 ESV
For I the LORD do not change;therefore you, O children of Jacob, are not consumed.

Just for those who would want a verse to back up the Immutability of God. There are plenty of other verses to backup this up. Some people actually hold to the view that God does change.

 

[BigNorsk]

If I may add to the "all" debate. See the thing is, that pretty clearly all does not mean absolutely every single one in many contexts in the bible.

For instance "All have sinned..." Now clearly there is one very obviouse exception, Jesus. So all doesn't mean absolutely all.

That's a given.

But at that point Calvinist theology leaves the question and just makes a leap that since all doens't necessarily mean all, that then it means only the elect.

Here's the problem. While all might not quite mean all. It's never used to only mean a small bunch or a minority. Ant that's really how Calvinists use it. Ask your pastor what percentage of people in the world he beilieves are elect, are saved. If he thinks about it, I doubt he would come up with anything over maybe 10%, but possibly higher, say 25%. So this is a huge leap from all doesn't mean all, to all only means a few.

The only ways he could get higher is to adopt nonCalvinistic beliefs, like general revelation can save or that a good Muslim or Hindu could be saved or some such thing, or reject salvation through faith, but I doubt he will do those. But he does, because he doesn't think about it, take all which can have some exceptions and make it mean some or a few.

Some will try to finesse it and say well it's all because the saved come from all nations, again just ask him to show you multiple locations where all means a few from many places and he won't be able to.

So all doesn't mean all, but the meaning in Greek is not the equivalent to some or the minority or a handful either. All just doesn't fit the elect.

Marv

 

[SobriaInebrietas]

Two notes:

He will probably say that "all" does not mean "all-inclusive" in every context, and then use that to dismiss passages such as 1 Timothy 2:3-5 and 1 John 2:1-2.

Maybe he is dizzy from all of that circle-running?!

Anyhoo..

Also, keep in mind that since he is knowledgeable about Calvinist theology, he may appear to "run circles around you" confusing you more. If at any time you feel that he has not listened, it is appropriate for you to cut short the visit. The goal isn't to satisfy a "criteria" for him or anyone else or the congregation or the church body. The goal is your salvation and especially your assurance of salvation through what Christ has done for you.

Thank you for that advice... I will definately keep that in mind and do so if need be. I am not fond of being belittled intellectually - not that anyone is. I am nervous about all this (thankfully he just left for two weeks to the Phillipines, so i will have a little time to prepare for some of this), but I think it will all work out... I am trying to remind myself that this is not a battle of wits, but an effort to uncover the true, clear meaning of Scripture - which does not need wit and clever intellectual tricks to make itself clear - of that I am sure.

 

[Edial]

Malachi 3:6 ESV
For I the LORD do not change;therefore you, O children of Jacob, are not consumed.

Just for those who would want a verse to back up the Immutability of God. There are plenty of other verses to backup this up. Some people actually hold to the view that God does change.

Of course God does not change.

But what do you think changed when in the OT God says that he hates the wicked, yet in the NT, after the sacrifice of his Son on the Cross for the sin of the world, God presents that he loves all, as in the Matthew text?

Thanks,
Ed