Walk through if I have it wrong, Ezekiel 38-39

[LittleLambofJesus]

You make a good point, yet in order for you to be correct though, you have to be able to prove Gog had already been defeated before the event recorded in Acts 2 took place. Ezekiel 39 makes it abundantly clear that the fulfillment of Ezekiel 39:29 is after that of the defeat of Gog, and not before the defeat of Gog. As to Gog himself, let's look at something here.

Ezekiel 39:11 And it shall come to pass in that day, that I will give unto Gog a place there of graves in Israel, the valley of the passengers on the east of the sea: and it shall stop the noses of the passengers: and there shall they bury Gog and all his multitude: and they shall call it The valley of Hamongog.

This clearly indicates Gog and his multitude are someone that can physically die and that can be buried in graves. That seems to leave out the possibility that Gog might not even be human, but might be meaning satan, or a demon, etc. Only humans can die and are in need of burial after that. The text doesn't say they shall bury just Gog's multitude, the text indicates they shall bury both Gog and all his multitude. And if that is to be taken literally, how can Gog not be human?

There is another possibility I am working on.

Perhaps Gog and his hoards are symbolizing those of the Jewish rebellion and Zealots in first century Israel and Jerusalem?

Daniel 11:14
And in times, those, many-ones shall stand on king of the south and sons of robbers/06530 p@riyts of thy people shall exalt themselves to establish of vision and they stumble

Matthew 21:13
And He is saying to them "it has been written 'My House a House of prayer shall be being called, ye yet are making it a den/cave of robbers'".
[Jeremiah 7:11/Daniel 11:14]

Ezekiel 2:3 And He saith unto Me, `Son of man, I am sending thee unto the sons of Israel, unto nations who are rebels, who have rebelled against Me; they and their fathers have transgressed against Me, unto this self-same day.
Ezekiel 20:38 And cleared out from you the rebels, And them transgressing against Me, From the land of their sojournings I bring them out, And unto the land of Israel they come not, And ye have known that I [am] Jehovah.
==================================================
This is what Josephus describes as happening in Jerusalem prior to Titus and the Romans coming:

https://www.preteristarchive.com/JewishWars/timeline_military.html
"..probably the greatest single slaughter in ancient history."
ROMAN SIEGE AND SACK OF JERUSALEM

The Destruction of Jerusalem - George Peter Holford, 1805AD

While Jerusalem was a prey to these ferocious and devouring factions, every part of Judea was scourged and laid waste by bands of robbers and murderers, who plundered the towns; and, in case of resistance, slew the inhabitants, not sparing either women or children. Simon, son of Gioras, the commander of one of these bands, at the head of forty thousand banditti, having with some difficulty entered Jerusalem, gave birth to a third faction, and the flame of civil discord blazed out again, with still more destructive fury.
The three factions, rendered frantic by drunkenness, rage, and desperation, trampling on heaps of slain, fought against each other with brutal savageness and madness. Even such as brou't sacrifices to the temple were murdered.

The dead bodies of priests and worshippers, both natives and foreigners were heaped together, and a lake of blood stagnated in the sacred courts. John of Gischala, who headed one of the factions, burnt storehouses full of provisions ; and Simon, his great antagonist, who headed another of them, soon afterwards followed his example. Thus they cut the very sinews of their own strength. At this critical and alarming c onjuncture, intelligence arrived that the Roman an army was approaching the city. The Jews were petrified with astonishment and fear ; there was no time for counsel, no hope of pacification, no means of flight:-- all was wild disorder and perplexity :- nothing was to be heard but "the confused noise of the warrior, " -- nothing to be seen but garments rolled in blood," -- nothing to be expected from the Romans but signal and exemplary vengeance. A ceaseless cry of combatants was heard day and night, and yet the lamentations of mourners were still more dreadful. The consternation and terror which now prevailed induced many inhabitants to desire that a foreign foe might come, and effect their deliverance. Such was the horrible condition of the place when Titus and his army presented themselves, and encamped before Jerusalem ; but, alas ! not to deliver it from its miseries but to fulfill the prediction, and vindicate the benevolent warning of our Lord : "When ye see (he had said to his disciples) the abomination of desolation, spoken or by the prophet Daniel, standing in the holy place, [11] and Jerusalem surrounded by armies (or camps,) then let those who are in the midst of Jerusalem depart, and let not those who are in the country enter into her," for " then know that the desolation thereof is nigh." Matt. xxiv. 15, 21 ; Luke xxi. 20, 1-11.

These armies, we do not hesitate to affirm were those of the Romans, who now invested the city. From the time of the Babylonian captivity, idolatry had been held as an abomination by the Jews. This national aversion was manifested even against the images of their gods and emperors, which the Roman armies carried in their standards ; so that, in a time of peace, Pilate, and afterwards Vitellius, at the request of some eminent Jews, on this account avoided marching their forces throu' Judea.
Of the desolating disposition which now governed the Roman army, the history of the Jewish war, and especially of the final demolition of the holy city, presents an awful and signal example. Jerusalem was not captured merely, but, with its celebrated temple, laid in ruins. Lest, however, the army of Titus should not be sufficiently designated by this expression, our LORD adds, "Wheresoever the carcass is, there will the eagles be gathered together." Matt. xxiv. 28.

The Jewish state, indeed, at this time, was fitly compared to a carcass. The sceptre of Judah, i . e . its civil and political authority, the life of its religion, and the glory of its temple, were departed. It was, in short, morally and judicially dead. The eagle, whose ruling instinct is rapine and murder, as fitly represented the fierce and sanguinary temper of the Romans, and, perhaps, might be intended to refer also to the principal figure on their ensigns, which, however obnoxious to the Jews, were at length planted in the midst of the holy city, and finally on the temple itself.

https://www.preteristarchive.com/JewishWars/timeline_military.html

CHRONOLOGY IMMEDIATELY SURROUNDING THE WAR

Stage 1: Murder of James the Just, "Opposition High Priest" ; Irrevocable Split: 62
Stage 2: General Revolt in Jerusalem ; Zealot Occupation of Masada: August-September 66
Stage 3: The Campaign of Cestius Gallus and the Defeat of the Twelfth Legion: October-November 66
Stage 4: End of Collaborative Government, Priesthood ; General Flight: November 66 - March 67
Part 6: Vespasian Subdues Northern and Western Palestine: December 66 - December 68
Part 7: Three-way Power Struggle within Jerusalem After Roman Retreat: January 68 - May 70
Part 8: Romans Breach City Walls and Leave Jerusalem Desolate: May 10 - September 10, 70


....................................

...................................

 

[Douggg]

Why focus on just 2 chapters of Ezekiel.

That's a fair question of why I intended for this thread to focus on the 2 chapters of Ezekiel 38-39.

It is because in the entire bible, Ezekiel 38-39 gives the entire latter days picture start to finish overview in one place in terms of the major events in order. That can be expressed in outline form of a walk through.

It only took me maybe a couple of minutes to type...

Israel will be living at rest and safely before Gog/Magog takes place, Ezekiel 38:8-11
Gog/Magog takes place - Ezekiel 38
Gog's army is destroyed - Ezekiel 39:4
Then the cleanup, followed by 7 years - Ezekiel 39:9-16
Then those 7 years (the great tribulation takes place during the second half of the 7 years)
Then Armageddon - Ezekiel 39:17-20
Jesus returned to earth - Ezekiel 39:21-29.

....it took me 50 years to know what to type.

There are, as you have noted, references to those same events elsewhere in the bible. And we posters here argue those to no end. However, those different views of posters in those discussions lift portions of the Ezekiel 38-39, that is fragments, into their arguments.

It is when a person is required to deal with Ezekiel 38-39 as a whole, applying whatever beliefs they may hold, whether their views pass the test of being right or wrong.

In this thread, I have asked over and over for posters to provide a outline walk through of Ezekiel 38-39. But what I receive is a lot of verbage on pieces and parts, but no action to actually provide an outline walk through. Why not? Because the views people have - don't fit. And it becomes apparent, because taken as a whole, walking through the two chapters, they have conflicts.

It took me fifty years. So I am asking a lot from most persons here. So, not likely to get any outline walk throughs of Ezekiel 38-39, the secondary objective for me, is to get people to "think" about what they believe, bible prophecy wise. I am not surprised for the bulk of resistance I get.

Anyone who is trying to make a outline walk through like this one, is thinking right now, on how to do it and keep their other bible prophecy views in tact.

Israel will be living at rest and safely before Gog/Magog takes place, Ezekiel 38:8-11
Gog/Magog takes place - Ezekiel 38
Gog's army is destroyed - Ezekiel 39:4
Then the cleanup, followed by 7 years - Ezekiel 39:9-16
Then those 7 years (the great tribulation takes place during the second half of the 7 years)
Then Armageddon - Ezekiel 39:17-20
Jesus returned to earth - Ezekiel 39:21-29.

 

[Douggg]

That's just poor logic. They are both within the same context of Gog/Magog. why would they not be the same event, if they in fact match?

Ezkeiel 39:4 and Ezekiel 39:17-18 are in the same chapter, but they are not the same event because one is before the 7 years and the other is after the 7 years and cleanup. No mention of the cleanup or Gog/Magog or Gog after Ezekiel 39:16.

 

[DavidPT]

There is another possibility I am working on.

Perhaps Gog and his hoards are symbolizing those of the Jewish rebellion and Zealots in first century Israel and Jerusalem?

Daniel 11:14
And in times, those, many-ones shall stand on king of the south and sons of robbers/06530 p@riyts of thy people shall exalt themselves to establish of vision and they stumble

Matthew 21:13
And He is saying to them "it has been written 'My House a House of prayer shall be being called, ye yet are making it a den/cave of robbers'".
[Jeremiah 7:11/Daniel 11:14]

Ezekiel 2:3 And He saith unto Me, `Son of man, I am sending thee unto the sons of Israel, unto nations who are rebels, who have rebelled against Me; they and their fathers have transgressed against Me, unto this self-same day.
Ezekiel 20:38 And cleared out from you the rebels, And them transgressing against Me, From the land of their sojournings I bring them out, And unto the land of Israel they come not, And ye have known that I [am] Jehovah.
==================================================
This is what Josephus describes as happening in Jerusalem prior to Titus and the Romans coming:

https://www.preteristarchive.com/JewishWars/timeline_military.html
"..probably the greatest single slaughter in ancient history."
ROMAN SIEGE AND SACK OF JERUSALEM

The Destruction of Jerusalem - George Peter Holford, 1805AD

While Jerusalem was a prey to these ferocious and devouring factions, every part of Judea was scourged and laid waste by bands of robbers and murderers, who plundered the towns; and, in case of resistance, slew the inhabitants, not sparing either women or children. Simon, son of Gioras, the commander of one of these bands, at the head of forty thousand banditti, having with some difficulty entered Jerusalem, gave birth to a third faction, and the flame of civil discord blazed out again, with still more destructive fury.
The three factions, rendered frantic by drunkenness, rage, and desperation, trampling on heaps of slain, fought against each other with brutal savageness and madness. Even such as brou't sacrifices to the temple were murdered.

https://www.preteristarchive.com/JewishWars/timeline_military.html

CHRONOLOGY IMMEDIATELY SURROUNDING THE WAR

Stage 1: Murder of James the Just, "Opposition High Priest" ; Irrevocable Split: 62
Stage 2: General Revolt in Jerusalem ; Zealot Occupation of Masada: August-September 66
Stage 3: The Campaign of Cestius Gallus and the Defeat of the Twelfth Legion: October-November 66
Stage 4: End of Collaborative Government, Priesthood ; General Flight: November 66 - March 67
Part 6: Vespasian Subdues Northern and Western Palestine: December 66 - December 68
Part 7: Three-way Power Struggle within Jerusalem After Roman Retreat: January 68 - May 70
Part 8: Romans Breach City Walls and Leave Jerusalem Desolate: May 10 - September 10, 70


....................................

...................................

In the event some of you might be correct about some of these things, I wish I could get on the same page with you first, in order to at least grasp what you are ultimately getting at. But I can't seem to get on the same page with some of you though. Unfortunately then you are speaking way over my head with posts such as this one.

 

[Douggg]

I disagree, Ezekiel 39:7 is clearly referenced in Ezekiel 43:7.

Where in Ezekiel 39:7 are you getting that right after Gog/Magog, Jesus has returned to earth and is dwelling in the midst of the children of Israel?

Ezekiel 43:7 And he said unto me, Son of man, the place of my throne, and the place of the soles of my feet, where I will dwell in the midst of the children of Israel for ever, and my holy name, shall the house of Israel no more defile, neither they, nor their kings, by their whoredom, nor by the carcases of their kings in their high places.

Ezekiel 39:21 is Jesus returned to earth, not Ezekiel 39:7. Ezekiel 39:21 is right after Armageddon in Ezekiel 39:17-20. Armageddon is 7 years after Gog/Magog.

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

Ezkeiel 39:4 and Ezekiel 39:17-18 are in the same chapter, but they are not the same event because one if before the 7 years and the other is after the 7 years and cleanup. No mention of the cleanup or Gog/Magog or Gog after Ezekiel 39:16.

I can view 1st century Jerusalem/Israel as Armageddon.
How long did it take for the cleanup of all the rubble and burying of bodies in 70ad Jerusalem and 1st century Israel?

Are they burying just the Jews slaughtered in Jerusalem and Judea, or all of the land of Israel?
I haven't really studied this yet:

Ezekiel 39:12
And house of Israel entomb them so that to cleanse the land Seven Months.
And all of the people of the Land entomb them, and He becomes to them for a Name, Day of to be glorified Me, declaration of Adonay Yahweh.

Mat 3:7
But when he saw many of the Pharisees and Sadducees coming to his baptism, he said to them,
“Brood of vipers! Who warned you to flee from the being about wrath?
Luk 3:7
Then he said to the multitudes that came out to be baptized by him,
“Brood of vipers! Who warned you to flee from the being about wrath?
===============================
The 7 year Jewish wars in the 1st century certainly created a lot of dead in Israel and Judea.

This historical video of that event shows all the places the Jewish rebels/Zealots had taking hold of in Israel, that the Romans had to conquer [best viewed full screen]

https://www.preteristarchive.com/JewishWars/timeline_military.html
"..probably the greatest single slaughter in ancient history."
ROMAN SIEGE AND SACK OF JERUSALEM

........................

 

[claninja]

I can also point to Peter making "use" of scripture to make a point. Peter made use out of Psalms 2 regarding why do the heathen rage and image a vain thing, as he was talking against the Jewish religious leaders (in Acts 4:5-6) in Acts 4:25-28. But what Peter was saying was out of context of Psalms 2.

It wasn't Peter who stated that. The believers quote psalm 2:1-2 as being fulfilled through herod, pilate, gentiles, and people of Israel conspiring against Jesus, who God anointed.

Acts 4:24-27 When the believers heard this, they lifted up their voices to God with one accord. “Sovereign Lord,” they said, “You made the heaven and the earth and the sea and everything in them. You spoke by the Holy Spirit through the mouth of Your servant,b our father David: ‘Why do the nations rage and the peoples plot in vain? The kings of the earth take their stand and the rulers gather together against the Lord and against His Anointed One.’c In fact, in this very city Herod and Pontius Pilate conspired with the Gentiles and the people of Israel against Your holy servant Jesus, whom You anointed.

But what Peter was saying was out of context of Psalms 2.

Again, it wasn't peter.

Wait...out of context? Are you saying the believers were wrong about Psalm 2:1-2 being fulfilled through herod, pilate, the gentiles, and people of Israel conspiring against Jesus?

What you are saying, referreing to Acts, doesn't change anything about what is said in the context of Ezekiel 38-39, Ezekiel 39:29 specifically.

Acts 2 tells us when the spirit was poured out on Israel: 10 days after Jesus ascended.

Considering Ezekiel 38-39 is a very difficult passage that most don't seem to agree on, even those within the same eschatological belief system, simply reading Ezekiel 38-39 and telling us what you believe is correct, is simply not enough. You have to support your conclusions with evidence, preferably outside of Ezekiel 38-39. in other words, use scripture to interpret scripture.

Acts 2 is that scripture that confirms when the spirit was poured out on Israel.

 

[Seville90210]

Here is what I say, to happen during your lifetime...

Gog/Magog takes place - Ezekiel 38
Gog's army is destroyed - Ezekiel 39:4
Then the cleanup, followed by 7 years - Ezekiel 39:9-16
Then those 7 years
Then Armageddon - Ezekiel 39:17-20
Jesus returned to earth - Ezekiel 39:21-29.

There's no way Ezekiel 38 can happen before the 7 year tribulation, unless you're ignoring what the verses are saying below.


Ezekiel 38:11-14 King James Version (KJV)
11 And thou shalt say, I will go up to the land of unwalled villages; I will go to them that are at rest, that dwell safely, all of them dwelling without walls, and having neither bars nor gates,

12 To take a spoil, and to take a prey; to turn thine hand upon the desolate places that are now inhabited, and upon the people that are gathered out of the nations, which have gotten cattle and goods, that dwell in the midst of the land.

13 Sheba, and Dedan, and the merchants of Tarshish, with all the young lions thereof, shall say unto thee, Art thou come to take a spoil? hast thou gathered thy company to take a prey? to carry away silver and gold, to take away cattle and goods, to take a great spoil?

14 Therefore, son of man, prophesy and say unto Gog, Thus saith the Lord God; In that day when my people of Israel dwelleth safely, shalt thou not know it?


The invasion of Israel takes place when the country dwells safely. This has yet to happen and will not until after the peace treaty when the tribulation will shortly follow.

The only logical scenario based on scripture is this invasion takes place at the middle of the tribulation when the a/c (Gog) breaks the treaty and invades Jerusalem leading up to the AoD.


What are Gog and Magog?

Ezekiel's battle of Gog and Magog occurs in the tribulation period, more specifically in the first 3 1/2 years. The strongest evidence for this view is that the attack will come when Israel is at peace (Ezekiel 38:8, 11). The description from Ezekiel is that of a nation that has security and has laid down its defenses. Israel is definitely not at peace now, and it is inconceivable that the nation would lay down its defenses apart from some major event. When Israel's covenant with the Beast/Antichrist is in effect at the beginning of Daniel's 70th Week (also known as the 7-year tribulation, Daniel 9:27a), Israel will be at peace. Possibly the battle will occur just before the midpoint of the seven-year period.

 

[DavidPT]

Ezekiel 39:21 is Jesus returned to earth, not Ezekiel 39:7.

One reason why you might be concluding that is because this would place those 7 years of burning weapons, post the 2nd coming. But if you really think about it though, and maybe consider the following In Isaiah 2, maybe it's not as farfetched as you might think, that they could be burning weapons 7 years post the 2nd coming.

Isaiah 2:4 And he shall judge among the nations, and shall rebuke many people: and they shall beat their swords into plowshares, and their spears into pruninghooks: nation shall not lift up sword against nation, neither shall they learn war any more .

What I have underlined can't be fulfilled in this age since nation lifting up sword against nation will obviously continue all the way up to the 2nd coming. Even Jesus indicated it would in Matthew 24:7. And if they begin burning all the weapons of war, that would be a good jump start on learning war no more.

 

[Douggg]

It wasn't Peter who stated that. The believers quote psalm 2:1-2 as being fulfilled through herod, pilate, gentiles, and people of Israel conspiring against Jesus, who God anointed.

Acts 4:24-27 When the believers heard this, they lifted up their voices to God with one accord. “Sovereign Lord,” they said, “You made the heaven and the earth and the sea and everything in them. You spoke by the Holy Spirit through the mouth of Your servant,b our father David: ‘Why do the nations rage and the peoples plot in vain? The kings of the earth take their stand and the rulers gather together against the Lord and against His Anointed One.’c In fact, in this very city Herod and Pontius Pilate conspired with the Gentiles and the people of Israel against Your holy servant Jesus, whom You anointed.

The translation you are using reads different than the KJV. Nonetheless, I will acknowledge your point of who said it. If I forget in future posts, please remind me, because I think you told me this (at least) once before.

Again, it wasn't peter.

Wait...out of context? Are you saying the believers were wrong about Psalm 2:1-2 being fulfilled through herod, pilate, the gentiles, and people of Israel conspiring against Jesus?

I am saying they referred to Psalms 2 using it as a principle, but it was not the fulfillment of Psalms 2.

Acts 2 is that scripture that confirms when the spirit was poured out on Israel.

This is a classic case of missing what the scripture is saying. There were persons from all the tribes of Israel come to Jerusalem for Pentecost. It was not every person of the house of Israel. And not all of them who were there, and heard Peter speak, became Christians. 3000, convicted in their hearts, did.

 

[Douggg]

There's no way Ezekiel 38 can happen before the 7 year tribulation, unless you're ignoring what the verses are saying below.

Has the great tribulation begun yet? Are you aware that Trump, represented by Jared kushner is about to present a peace plan, that behind the scenes is being coordinated with the Arabs?

 

[Douggg]

The only logical scenario based on scripture is this invasion takes place at the middle of the tribulation when the a/c (Gog) breaks the treaty and invades Jerusalem leading up to the AoD.

Then please do a outline walk through of Ezekiel 38-39, based on everything you believe as you believe it.

Similar to this...

Israel will be living at rest and safely before Gog/Magog takes place, Ezekiel 38:8-11
Gog/Magog takes place - Ezekiel 38
Gog's army is destroyed - Ezekiel 39:4
Then the cleanup, followed by 7 years - Ezekiel 39:9-16
Then those 7 years (the great tribulation takes place during the second half of the 7 years)
Then Armageddon - Ezekiel 39:17-20
Jesus returned to earth - Ezekiel 39:21-29.

 

[Seville90210]

maybe it's not as farfetched as you might think, that they could be burning weapons 7 years post the 2nd coming.

This is correct. The burning of weapons for 7 years is after the tribulation during the beginning of the millennium.

The Isrealis will be burning the weapons instead of logs to stay warm after the tribulation.


Ezekiel 39:9-10 King James Version (KJV)
9 And they that dwell in the cities of Israel shall go forth, and shall set on fire and burn the weapons, both the shields and the bucklers, the bows and the arrows, and the handstaves, and the spears, and they shall burn them with fire seven years:

10 So that they shall take no wood out of the field, neither cut down any out of the forests; for they shall burn the weapons with fire: and they shall spoil those that spoiled them, and rob those that robbed them, saith the Lord God.


Two more reasons why Douggg is wrong and Ezekiel 38-39 cannot be before the tribulation.

1) During the tribulation, the entire middle east will be burning hot as a furnace, Malachi 4:1. This makes it illogical those 7 years of weapons burning to be in the tribulation.

2) Numerous scriptures in the old and new testament tells us the Jews will flee Israel at the middle of the tribulation. That would mean they can only burn the weapons for first 3 1/2 years while they're still Israel, not the entire 7 years as they're scattered during the second half.

7 years of weapons burning in Israel during the 7 year tribulation is not possible based on scripture.

 

[Seville90210]

Then please do a outline walk through of Ezekiel 38-39, based on everything you believe as you believe it.

I did. Ezekiel 38-39 is the second half of the final 7 years. It starts at the middle of the tribulation when Gog invades Israel and commits the AoD......when the nation is at peace dwelling safely! And without bars, gates and walls!

This is the ONLY scenario that fits and harmonies all prophecies together.

 

[Douggg]

One reason why you might be concluding that is because this would place those 7 years of burning weapons, post the 2nd coming. But if you really think about it though, and maybe consider the following In Isaiah 2, maybe it's not as farfetched as you might think, that they could be burning weapons 7 years post the 2nd coming.

Isaiah 2:4 And he shall judge among the nations, and shall rebuke many people: and they shall beat their swords into plowshares, and their spears into pruninghooks: nation shall not lift up sword against nation, neither shall they learn war any more .

What I have underlined can't be fulfilled in this age since nation lifting up sword against nation will obviously continue all the way up to the 2nd coming. Even Jesus indicated it would in Matthew 24:7. And if they begin burning all the weapons of war, that would be a good jump start on learning war no more.

David, try to envision following Gog/Magog (in my view of being before Armageddon 7 years later) how them in Israel would feel. Many Jews of Judaism who I have heard believe the messianic age begins following Gog/Magog. Which following Gog/Magog, they would have total control of the temple mount, and could begin offering animal sacrifices again.

And if their messiah person shows up and is anointed their king of Israel, this would confirm their view of the messianic age starting soon after Gog/Magog.

 

[claninja]

You make a good point, yet in order for you to be correct though, you have to be able to prove Gog had already been defeated before the event recorded in Acts 2 took place.

Ezekiel 39:29 And I will not hide my face anymore from them, when I pour out my Spirit upon the house of Israel, declares the Lord God.”

We should first look for a tent pole. I believe Ezekiel 39:29 is the clearest tent pole. we may disagree on the order of Ezekiel 39, we may disagree on the identity of Gog in Ezekiel 39, but Ezekiel 39:29 is very clearly the spirit being poured out.

The spirit was poured out on Pentecost, after Jesus ascended.


John 14:15 If you love me, you will keep my commandments. And I will ask the Father, and he will give you another Helper, to be with you to the age.

John 14:26 the Helper, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in my name, he will teach you all things and bring to your remembrance all that I have said to you

Luke 24:49 And behold, I am sending the promise of my Father upon you. But stay in the city until you are clothed with power from on high.”

acts 2:15-16
For these people are not drunk, as you suppose, since it is only the third hour of the day.b 16But this is what was uttered through the prophet Joel:“‘And in the last days it shall be, God declares,
that I will pour out my Spirit on all flesh,

This clearly indicates Gog and his multitude are someone that can physically die and that can be buried in graves. That seems to leave out the possibility that Gog might not even be human, but might be meaning satan, or a demon, etc. Only humans can die and are in need of burial after that. The text doesn't say they shall bury just Gog's multitude, the text indicates they shall bury both Gog and all his multitude. And if that is to be taken literally, how can Gog not be human?

I believe Gog/Magog's identity is found in revelation 19-20, where it relates Ezekiel 38-39 to satan, the beast, the kings of the earth, and their armies. I believe Gog/Magog has both a spiritual and physical presence.

 

[Douggg]

I did. Ezekiel 38-39 is the second half of the final 7 years. It starts at the middle of the tribulation when Gog invades Israel and commits the AoD......when the nation is at peace dwelling safely! And without bars, gates and walls!

This is the ONLY scenario that fits and harmonies all prophecies together.

That's a commentary on fragments of Ezekiel 38-39, not an outline walk through of the two chapters.

This is an outline walk-though. See those verse references off to the side, and in order?
That's what I am asking from you.

Israel will be living at rest and safely before Gog/Magog takes place, Ezekiel 38:8-11
Gog/Magog takes place - Ezekiel 38
Gog's army is destroyed - Ezekiel 39:4
Then the cleanup, followed by 7 years - Ezekiel 39:9-16
Then those 7 years (the great tribulation takes place during the second half of the 7 years)
Then Armageddon - Ezekiel 39:17-20
Jesus returned to earth - Ezekiel 39:21-29.

 

[claninja]

I am saying they referred to Psalms 2 using it as a principle, but it was not the fulfillment of Psalms 2.

using it as principle? what does that even mean.

I absolutely disagree. scripture clearly has it fulfilled as they even interpret it for us :

Acts 4:27-28 for truly in this city there were gathered together against your holy servant Jesus, whom you anointed, both Herod and Pontius Pilate, along with the Gentiles and the peoples of Israel, to do whatever your hand and your plan had predestined to take place

This is a classic case of missing what the scripture is saying. There were persons from all the tribes of Israel come to Jerusalem for Pentecost. It was not every person of the house of Israel. And not all of them who were there, and heard Peter speak, became Christians. 3000, convicted in their hearts, did.

I never said every person received it at that moment. I'm saying this is the event when the spirit was poured out, as clearly outlined in Acts. There is no need for another outpouring, it's already here.

However, you seem to believe that there will be another outpouring, even though that logically makes no sense, as the spirit was already poured out and is presently here.

 

[Douggg]

using it as principle? what does that even mean.

It means the religious leaders in their day were doing the same kind of thing, opposing Jesus, as the heathen of the kings of the earth of the end times will be doing when they gather together to make war on Jesus.

 

[Seville90210]

That's a commentary on fragments of Ezekiel 38-39, not an outline walk through of the two chapters.

This is an outline walk-though. See those verse references off to the side, and in order?
That's what I am asking from you.

Israel will be living at rest and safely before Gog/Magog takes place, Ezekiel 38:8-11
Gog/Magog takes place - Ezekiel 38
Gog's army is destroyed - Ezekiel 39:4
Then the cleanup, followed by 7 years - Ezekiel 39:9-16
Then those 7 years (the great tribulation takes place during the second half of the 7 years)
Then Armageddon - Ezekiel 39:17-20
Jesus returned to earth - Ezekiel 39:21-29.

Your theory would be more convincing if you can proves Israel is at peace before the peace treaty and the tribulation.

But here's another verse in Ezekiel 39:21 that proves your theory wrong.

Ezekiel 39:21 New King James Version (NKJV)
“I will set My glory among the nations; all the nations shall see My judgment which I have executed, and My hand which I have laid on them.

When will God / Jesus execute judgement upon all the nations on earth? This will only happen in the tribulation, not before.

Therefore, Ezekiel 38-39 can only be in the tribulation, not before.