Voting in favor of your Bible POV - God's Word

[JacksBratt]

Yep - each day determined by the rotation of the planet it pertains to.

And each reference to day with ordinals like first, second, third... in the Bible refers to that same standard for the time it takes for one day... "evening and morning" -- one rotation of the planet.

So, Bob, If they were to travel to Venus by space craft.... At what point in time would NASA start stating "They will be home in 15/243's of a day?
Or, "they have been there for 10/243's of a day?

There is no need to assume, speculate, extrapolate, stretch, bend or skew any of the days of creation into anything but our standard 24 hours.

Unless you have a reason to start putting things into scripture that are not there. Or trying to fit "the wisdom of men" into the "solid truth of God".

Anytime you start trying to fit something into a chain of events, that doesn't fit.. you must then change the definitions of the time scale to fit the items into it that you so desire.

Only when people want to fit things, not mentioned in the bible, into the six days, do they start the gap theory or tossing the whole six days altogether.

In it's literal form and as it is written, there is nothing that is contradicted, not in the power and capabilities of God, or anything else in the biblical commentary, that needs to be changed or can not take place if it is six x 24 hour days.

 

[JacksBratt]

This is a good point. It is frustrating to see people demand a particular literal interpretation of some pericopes while rejecting a literal interpretation of others.

Love your flag icon at the bottom of your post.

We need police more every day... They truly need our solid support and need to know that we have their backs.

 

[K2K]

This is not something answered with "He did.. but".

My question was "So, it was possible for Him to do it in the time indicated by the scriptures then?"

And, I am listening to Him... Are you saying that I'm not?

The Scriptures? Yes, the Scriptures are correct but obviously not your understanding of them. His days are clearly not 24 hour periods and if you are listening to Him what did He tell you personal about them. Did you not find out that what that the day the He is really concerned about is "Today"? Did you not find out that He teaches in parables and sayings, so that it is the meaning you learn and not the literal meaning that He is after? Did you not then have Him go over that part about how a thousands days to Him is like a day, and a day to Him is like a thousand days - so that you found out that His meaning of a day is not your meaning of a day. You should have figured that out from the other things He told you, but if not that then from the other things you read in the Bible. Did you not read about how talked to Daniel about weeks?

Dan 9:26 “Then after the sixty-two weeks the Messiah will be cut off and have nothing, and the people of the prince who is to come will destroy the city and the sanctuary. And [fn]its end will come with a flood; even to the end there will be war; desolations are determined.

Dan 10:2 In those days, I, Daniel, had been mourning for three entire weeks.

Compare the two verses above. The second was indeed weeks of 24 hour days, but it was Danial writing about his view of time. The first however was not weeks of 24 hours days because it was God talking about His view of time which is not our view of time. So in Genesis we see God giving an explanation of how He created things, do you not understand that it is in God's view of time not yours? If you are thinking 7 24 hour days you are still thinking in the physical and not the spiritual. Yet if you have been listening to the Lord regularly you certainly must have regularly run up against the exact problem, where He is talking about His view of time and you are trying to comprehend Him by using your view of time and it wasn't working that well. That is to say; if a person does indeed spend time talking to the Lord they are going to realize that He tends to think in spiritual meanings and we tend to think in physical meanings. So you are going to understand quickly that the 7 days in Genesis are not going to be interpreted correctly to think of them as being seven 24 hour days!!!

So then, you are also going to understand that people who insist on them being 7 24 hours days are have not been listening to the Lord that much. Daniel would have understood that his meaning of 3 weeks and the Lord's meaning of 3 weeks were not the same thing. You should have from reading what Daniel wrote, but we people tend to get stubborn and so we lean on our instead of His. That is why we don't seek Him.

So the Bible is right about the seven days, but you are wrong to think God meant 7 24 hour days, because His thoughts are not your thoughts!! You get to understand that His thoughts are not His thoughts pretty quickly if indeed you are listening to Him on the days called "Today".

I know that.. However, They are all powerful and live in a dimension without time.

We, humans, cannot work everyday all day. That is why He set the pattern that works best for us, created beings, living in a dimension of time, with mortal bodies that need rest, recovery and sleep.

Are you trying to say that we should work everyday now?

That might not actually be true ' that they live in a dimension with out time. It might be but remember that God is omni-present and there is something written about us being His temple, so that He lives in us and we live in time. Still, He was the One who created time. He once was talking to me about Genesis and told me "Karl, time is something you can count, and do you see where it is written 'one day'. Well, that was where I created time." So He existed before time, which makes Him eternal but might not have Him in another dimension. It could be, and probably is, that He just created what we call a dimension by creating time. That is to say that days are nothing more than a way to count. Everything could go on exactly like it is without dividing it into periods we count.

So if you want to see God as setting an example for us, then the days in Genesis are and example to us on how we should divide up events into periods. Still, Jesus said He and His Father had not rested to that very day, so then has the seventh day when God rested even come about yet. It couldn't have unless Jesus lied could it? If then the seventh day talked about in Revelation has not yet come and we have certainly seen for ourselves many 24 hour periods we call days come and go, then obviously our conclusion that those were 24 hour days as we see them is way off!!

The incredibleness of God then is not so much in that He can cause a big bang in a moment and all things we see come into existence, but rather the incredibleness of God is that 13 to 15 billions of our years later has is not even like a week to Him. Which is to say that He keeps coming up more incredible than we thought the more we think about Him and talk to Him.

Again, are you saying that God wants us to work 7 days a week?

I never said that. It sounds like you are just trying to put words in my mouth, but I will just assume that you misunderstood what I wrote. That happens.

I stand corrected.. Yes, I do believe that if you think that creating the universe in six literal days, is beyond the ability of our Creator.. you DO have a problem with God as He has told us that "nothing is impossible for Him"

Well, I don't have a problem with God being able to have created all things in the six literal day like you think I do. I have a problem with stubborn people though. Clearly it was not 6 literal days. Our increased knowledge (the Lord did say knowledge would increase) show that is not the case. The Bible shows that is not the case either. The Bible shows that His thoughts are not our thoughts. It shows like I explained, that His concept of time is not our concept of time. The Bible explains clearly that He speaks to us in parable and saying (thus not so much in literal meaning like you suppose)

Ps 78:2 "I will open my mouth in a parable; I will utter dark sayings of old"

How can a person read that and not understand that Genesis was a parable and dark saying of old?

People are trying to take an explanation, to people of all times, from God about how He created things (which of course is beyond any of our abilities to understand) and make it literal when of course He had to make it like a parable or saying just so we could get a rough idea!!!!

Frankly, it amazes me how silly we people can be. God, when He talked to Moses had to give a simply explanation to Moses about something so far beyond people of any age that of course He didn't intend that it should be taken so literal. It was and is just an explanation about something we really can't fully understand anyway. Even today, with our best science we our increased learning over time, we can not figure it out. Our laws of physic break down when we theorize close to the moment of the Big Bang, if we are even correct about that.

You know, I see something in common with scientist and theologians. They are both trying to figure out God, what He did, and how He is, but neither seem to spend much time actually talking to Him otherwise they would understand that is not possible! Still, He likes people thinking. He created us with some extremely limited ability (compared to Him) to think. But have you never heard Him laugh at you and your thinking, like a Father would laugh at and enjoy a child who figured out something.

Look, people want to tell me that they listen to Him, but I know how He is from listening to Him for 20 years. It doesn't take long to tell. I had a friend I worked in a Christian healing ministry and he hears from the Lord. I can tell that too. I knew that before I ever talk to him, because the Holy Spirit told me that he was someone that hear from the Lord when he was just sitting in the pew in front of me.

Yesterday my friend, which I don't see so much of anymore because I left that ministry to man a prayer room for the Lord, was told by the Lord to turn around and go to a storage facility to meet up with me. I should not have been at that storage facility at the time but I was running several hours late and how was he even to know I would have been there at all. Yet the Lord talked to him and went to the storage facility. He got there right as I was opening the door. God's timing and knowledge is perfect. He invited me back to that ministry. They were trying a drive thru thing and the prayer room is close now due to Covid. He also prayed for me as instructed. We talk again about hearing from the Lord. It is nice to know some people who do actually know the Lord. They know He talks about a specific day "Today". Like Isaiah wrote "You will hear a voice behind you saying, 'this is the way' when ever you turn to the right or to the left." Is 30:21 Understand that and then you will understand.

A Belgian priest named Georges Lemaître first suggested the big bang theory in the 1920s, when he theorized that the universe began from a single primordial atom.

Thank you Jack for that information. I had not ever looked at where the big bang theory actually came from. It had to be a scientist, and a quick research on Georges Lemaitre shows that he was both a priest and scientist. That was awesome, and it should be like that because as I mentioned above both theologians and scientist are trying to figure out God. From what I read it doesn't look like he would have held to the 7 24 hour day idea, though I am certain that he read the Bible and believed it was from God. I doubt that especially because he had a lot to do with developing the red-shirt concept which puts the universe way way back in time. You can't have the "Let there be light" big bang in one 24 hour period and think that in next few 24 hour period we got all we do on earth when the red-shift put things billion of years which a year consist of 365 24 hour periods.

Face it Jack, there are scientist who are Christians, who have come to realize that God did not mean the seven days to be taken literally!!! That doesn't mean they don't think the Bible is correct. It just means that they are not thinking the 7 days are literally 24 hour days. They are not so stubbornly stuck in thousand of year old thinking, but realize that God does speak in symbolic

 

[K2K]

There is no need to put the word priest in scare quotes. Priest and bishop are English derivations of the Greek words presbyteros and episkopos, used in the New Testament to mean elder and overseer respectively. Indeed, John Wesley translated the older English forms into “Elder” and “Superintendent”, and the United Methodist Church retains this usage in part even today, while the Anglicans keep it simple and continue to refer to their Elders as Priests. There is nothing in the term which should discountenance any Protestant.

Unfortunately most English Bibles muddy the waters a bit by using the word priest to translate “sacerdos” or “kohanim”, thus causing a certain confusion between the sacerdotal priesthood of Aaron, of Melchizedek, of our Lord, and of all believers and the sacramental priesthood clearly defined in the epistles of the New Testament.

I'm sorry if you are offended by my putting "priest" in quotations. Perhaps you misunderstood my meaning. There is something in the Bible about making us a nation of priests! Indeed, because of the cross you, the next guy, and myself can all get to know the Lord personally. So we can all, if we believe, can have conversations with Him, pray and intercede for others, and an oversee what the Lord has asked us to oversee. Regardless of what you think, we all need to listen to the Lord, or have we not read that they will all be taught of God. Perhaps even that the sheep hear His voice. And the reference really had to do with us all looking to know about the Lord, which priests and even scientist are actually trying to do.

That is what I like about science, though I as much a scientist as I am a priest. People would considered me neither though the Lord considers me His friend because we talk unlike many "elders', 'Superintendents' and certainly the Chief Priest when Jesus Christ was in the flesh! So was the Chief Priest then even a priest at all since He didn't know the One who He was supposed to serve? In name only was he the Chief Priest. So it is not meant to offend you but you might ask the Lord why it seemed to and then listen for Him. That is my purpose anyway. He once told me to open by Bible up to Ezekiel 3 and told me that He was sending me to those who should listen to me but that they would be unwilling to listen to me because they were unwilling to listen to Him. So be willing to listen to me telling you to seek Him and His voice. Make seeking Him a habit and listening to Him a habit (See the last part of Heb 5), because a person is not even qualified to teach about Him unless they first start practicing listening to Him so that they are not dull of hearing.

It still amazes me that people even from reading the Bible are still looking to men instead of the Lord!

 

[JacksBratt]

The Scriptures? Yes, the Scriptures are correct but obviously not your understanding of them. His days are clearly not 24 hour periods and if you are listening to Him what did He tell you personal about them. Did you not find out that what that the day the He is really concerned about is "Today"? Did you not find out that He teaches in parables and sayings, so that it is the meaning you learn and not the literal meaning that He is after? Did you not then have Him go over that part about how a thousands days to Him is like a day, and a day to Him is like a thousand days - so that you found out that His meaning of a day is not your meaning of a day. You should have figured that out from the other things He told you, but if not that then from the other things you read in the Bible. Did you not read about how talked to Daniel about weeks?

Dan 9:26 “Then after the sixty-two weeks the Messiah will be cut off and have nothing, and the people of the prince who is to come will destroy the city and the sanctuary. And [fn]its end will come with a flood; even to the end there will be war; desolations are determined.

Dan 10:2 In those days, I, Daniel, had been mourning for three entire weeks.

Compare the two verses above. The second was indeed weeks of 24 hour days, but it was Danial writing about his view of time. The first however was not weeks of 24 hours days because it was God talking about His view of time which is not our view of time. So in Genesis we see God giving an explanation of how He created things, do you not understand that it is in God's view of time not yours? If you are thinking 7 24 hour days you are still thinking in the physical and not the spiritual. Yet if you have been listening to the Lord regularly you certainly must have regularly run up against the exact problem, where He is talking about His view of time and you are trying to comprehend Him by using your view of time and it wasn't working that well. That is to say; if a person does indeed spend time talking to the Lord they are going to realize that He tends to think in spiritual meanings and we tend to think in physical meanings. So you are going to understand quickly that the 7 days in Genesis are not going to be interpreted correctly to think of them as being seven 24 hour days!!!

So then, you are also going to understand that people who insist on them being 7 24 hours days are have not been listening to the Lord that much. Daniel would have understood that his meaning of 3 weeks and the Lord's meaning of 3 weeks were not the same thing. You should have from reading what Daniel wrote, but we people tend to get stubborn and so we lean on our instead of His. That is why we don't seek Him.

So the Bible is right about the seven days, but you are wrong to think God meant 7 24 hour days, because His thoughts are not your thoughts!! You get to understand that His thoughts are not His thoughts pretty quickly if indeed you are listening to Him on the days called "Today".



That might not actually be true ' that they live in a dimension with out time. It might be but remember that God is omni-present and there is something written about us being His temple, so that He lives in us and we live in time. Still, He was the One who created time. He once was talking to me about Genesis and told me "Karl, time is something you can count, and do you see where it is written 'one day'. Well, that was where I created time." So He existed before time, which makes Him eternal but might not have Him in another dimension. It could be, and probably is, that He just created what we call a dimension by creating time. That is to say that days are nothing more than a way to count. Everything could go on exactly like it is without dividing it into periods we count.

So if you want to see God as setting an example for us, then the days in Genesis are and example to us on how we should divide up events into periods. Still, Jesus said He and His Father had not rested to that very day, so then has the seventh day when God rested even come about yet. It couldn't have unless Jesus lied could it? If then the seventh day talked about in Revelation has not yet come and we have certainly seen for ourselves many 24 hour periods we call days come and go, then obviously our conclusion that those were 24 hour days as we see them is way off!!

The incredibleness of God then is not so much in that He can cause a big bang in a moment and all things we see come into existence, but rather the incredibleness of God is that 13 to 15 billions of our years later has is not even like a week to Him. Which is to say that He keeps coming up more incredible than we thought the more we think about Him and talk to Him.



I never said that. It sounds like you are just trying to put words in my mouth, but I will just assume that you misunderstood what I wrote. That happens.



Well, I don't have a problem with God being able to have created all things in the six literal day like you think I do. I have a problem with stubborn people though. Clearly it was not 6 literal days. Our increased knowledge (the Lord did say knowledge would increase) show that is not the case. The Bible shows that is not the case either. The Bible shows that His thoughts are not our thoughts. It shows like I explained, that His concept of time is not our concept of time. The Bible explains clearly that He speaks to us in parable and saying (thus not so much in literal meaning like you suppose)

Ps 78:2 "I will open my mouth in a parable; I will utter dark sayings of old"

How can a person read that and not understand that Genesis was a parable and dark saying of old?

People are trying to take an explanation, to people of all times, from God about how He created things (which of course is beyond any of our abilities to understand) and make it literal when of course He had to make it like a parable or saying just so we could get a rough idea!!!!

Frankly, it amazes me how silly we people can be. God, when He talked to Moses had to give a simply explanation to Moses about something so far beyond people of any age that of course He didn't intend that it should be taken so literal. It was and is just an explanation about something we really can't fully understand anyway. Even today, with our best science we our increased learning over time, we can not figure it out. Our laws of physic break down when we theorize close to the moment of the Big Bang, if we are even correct about that.

You know, I see something in common with scientist and theologians. They are both trying to figure out God, what He did, and how He is, but neither seem to spend much time actually talking to Him otherwise they would understand that is not possible! Still, He likes people thinking. He created us with some extremely limited ability (compared to Him) to think. But have you never heard Him laugh at you and your thinking, like a Father would laugh at and enjoy a child who figured out something.

Look, people want to tell me that they listen to Him, but I know how He is from listening to Him for 20 years. It doesn't take long to tell. I had a friend I worked in a Christian healing ministry and he hears from the Lord. I can tell that too. I knew that before I ever talk to him, because the Holy Spirit told me that he was someone that hear from the Lord when he was just sitting in the pew in front of me.

Yesterday my friend, which I don't see so much of anymore because I left that ministry to man a prayer room for the Lord, was told by the Lord to turn around and go to a storage facility to meet up with me. I should not have been at that storage facility at the time but I was running several hours late and how was he even to know I would have been there at all. Yet the Lord talked to him and went to the storage facility. He got there right as I was opening the door. God's timing and knowledge is perfect. He invited me back to that ministry. They were trying a drive thru thing and the prayer room is close now due to Covid. He also prayed for me as instructed. We talk again about hearing from the Lord. It is nice to know some people who do actually know the Lord. They know He talks about a specific day "Today". Like Isaiah wrote "You will hear a voice behind you saying, 'this is the way' when ever you turn to the right or to the left." Is 30:21 Understand that and then you will understand.



Thank you Jack for that information. I had not ever looked at where the big bang theory actually came from. It had to be a scientist, and a quick research on Georges Lemaitre shows that he was both a priest and scientist. That was awesome, and it should be like that because as I mentioned above both theologians and scientist are trying to figure out God. From what I read it doesn't look like he would have held to the 7 24 hour day idea, though I am certain that he read the Bible and believed it was from God. I doubt that especially because he had a lot to do with developing the red-shirt concept which puts the universe way way back in time. You can't have the "Let there be light" big bang in one 24 hour period and think that in next few 24 hour period we got all we do on earth when the red-shift put things billion of years which a year consist of 365 24 hour periods.

Face it Jack, there are scientist who are Christians, who have come to realize that God did not mean the seven days to be taken literally!!! That doesn't mean they don't think the Bible is correct. It just means that they are not thinking the 7 days are literally 24 hour days. They are not so stubbornly stuck in thousand of year old thinking, but realize that God does speak in symbolic

Thanks for your post, K2K. Sounds like you and I have different opinions on this subject.

Doubt if we will change each others minds..

God Bless.

 

[K2K]

Thanks for your post, K2K. Sounds like you and I have different opinions on this subject.

Doubt if we will change each others minds..

God Bless.

Yeah - still thanks for the info on priest Georges Lemaitre. That gave me some information I appreciated. He seems like a great guy.

 

[AmigodeJesus]

Did you not find out that He teaches in parables and sayings

Parables are based upon the natural, original and literal. The literal, natural and original are first in any understanding, then comes the spiritual, parable, metaphor, euphemism, or secondary and other drawn meanings. Even Aquinas and others knew this, and stated as such, and one may read this as stated:

SUMMA THEOLOGICA: The nature and extent of sacred doctrine (Prima Pars, Q. 1)

"...for all the senses are founded on one — the literal — from which alone can any argument be drawn..."

"...nothing necessary to faith is contained under the spiritual sense which is not elsewhere put forward by the Scripture in its literal sense. ..."

Consider also,

Thomas Aquinas, Summa Theologica, Question 74, Article 3, Reply to Objection 6 and 7 and Suppliment

Thomas Aquinas, Summa Theologica; "Second Part of the Second Part "; "Question 122. The precepts of justice"; "Article 4"

 

[AmigodeJesus]

Yeah - still thanks for the info on priest Georges Lemaitre.

A Jesuit (an "advance guard" and "special forces" of the Catholic faith), who denied the foundation of scripture, and that which is written therein by what he taught. Big-Bangism theology is bankrupt and self-refuting, and violates all known laws by which it purports to have produced.

Jesuits must adhere to the following:

"... perinde ac cadaver, "like a corpse" ..." - Roman Catholic Online Encyclopedia, section S, Society of Jesus, History of the (Before 1773) - CATHOLIC ENCYCLOPEDIA: Pre-1773 History of the Jesuits

"... the renunciation of their will, and the abnegation of their judgment ..."

"...32. According to the Constitutions, “the entire purport of this fourth vow of obedience to the pope was and is with regard to missions… for having the members dispersed throughout the various parts of the world”.50 This is the matter of the vow. But the Constitutions also invite us to distinguish ourselves in obedience “not only in the matters of obligation but also in others even though nothing else be perceived except an indication of the superior’s will without an expressed command”.51 This is thoroughly congruent with Ignatius’s ideal of obedience, which holds “that obedience is imperfect in which there does not exist, in addition to the execution, agreement in willing and judging between him who commands and him who obeys”.52 ..." - http://www.sjweb.info/35/documents/Decrees.pdf

"... The thirteenth, finally, that we may be altogether of the same mind and in conformity with the Church herself, if she shall have defined anything to be black which to our eyes appears to be white, we ought in like manner to pronounce it to be white. [Autograph, The thirteenth: that we may in all things attain the truth (that we may not err in anything), we ought ever to hold it (as a fixed principle), that what I see white, I believe to be black, if the Hierarchical Church so define it (to be);]] ..." - The Spiritual Exercises of St. Ignatius of Loyola, [PDF page 229] page 180, translated from the Authorised Latin; with Extracts from the Literal Version and Notes of the Rev. Father Rothaan. Father-General of the Company of Jesus; by Charles Seager, M.A.: to which is prefixed A Preface by the Right Rev. Nicholas Wiseman, D.D., Bishop of Melipotamus, and Coadjutor of theMidland District of England. London: Charles Dolman, 61 New Bond-Street. MDCCCXLVII. (1847) - The spiritual exercises of St. Ignatius of Loyola

This very principle is seen in Orwell's "1984".

Jesuits practice the following:

"… cum finis est licitus, etiam media sunt licita." - Medulla Theologiae Moralis, by R. P. Hermanni Busenbaum, page 539 - Medulla theologiae moralis R. P. Hermanni Busembaum Societatis Jesu theologi; cum adnotationibus per reverendum patrem D. Alphonsum de Ligorio rectorem majorem Congregationis Sanctissimi Salvatoris ... accedunt in calce libri propositiones damnatae; necnon omnes epistolae encyclicae, et pontificia decreta mores spectantia SS. D. : Hermann Busenbaum : Free Download, Borrow, and Streaming : Internet Archive

English translation - "… when the end is lawful, the means also are lawful."

They also say, "ad maiorem dei gloriam"

 

[The Liturgist]

I'm sorry if you are offended by my putting "priest" in quotations. Perhaps you misunderstood my meaning. There is something in the Bible about making us a nation of priests! Indeed, because of the cross you, the next guy, and myself can all get to know the Lord personally. So we can all, if we believe, can have conversations with Him, pray and intercede for others, and an oversee what the Lord has asked us to oversee. Regardless of what you think, we all need to listen to the Lord, or have we not read that they will all be taught of God. Perhaps even that the sheep hear His voice. And the reference really had to do with us all looking to know about the Lord, which priests and even scientist are actually trying to do.

That is what I like about science, though I as much a scientist as I am a priest. People would considered me neither though the Lord considers me His friend because we talk unlike many "elders', 'Superintendents' and certainly the Chief Priest when Jesus Christ was in the flesh! So was the Chief Priest then even a priest at all since He didn't know the One who He was supposed to serve? In name only was he the Chief Priest. So it is not meant to offend you but you might ask the Lord why it seemed to and then listen for Him. That is my purpose anyway. He once told me to open by Bible up to Ezekiel 3 and told me that He was sending me to those who should listen to me but that they would be unwilling to listen to me because they were unwilling to listen to Him. So be willing to listen to me telling you to seek Him and His voice. Make seeking Him a habit and listening to Him a habit (See the last part of Heb 5), because a person is not even qualified to teach about Him unless they first start practicing listening to Him so that they are not dull of hearing.

It still amazes me that people even from reading the Bible are still looking to men instead of the Lord!

I agree, which is why I strongly urge anyone with misguided anti-clerical sentiment to open up their Bible and turn to the Pastoral Epistles of Paul to Timothy, and also the Acts of the Apostles. These books collectively explain the Biblical functions of New Testament clergy, the qualifications clergy must have, and the roles and responsibilities of Presbyters, Episkopoi (Overseers/Bishops) and Deacons in the Christian Church.*

*In the New Testament, the words Presbyter and Episkopoi are used somewhat interchangeably, but in the following decades, the term Episkopoi began to be used for those who succeeded the Apostles in leadership roles as most of the Apostles were martyred.

 

[K2K]

I agree, which is why I strongly urge anyone with misguided anti-clerical sentiment to open up their Bible and turn to the Pastoral Epistles of Paul to Timothy, and also the Acts of the Apostles. These books collectively explain the Biblical functions of New Testament clergy, the qualifications clergy must have, and the roles and responsibilities of Presbyters, Episkopoi (Overseers/Bishops) and Deacons in the Christian Church.*

*In the New Testament, the words Presbyter and Episkopoi are used somewhat interchangeably, but in the following decades, the term Episkopoi began to be used for those who succeeded the Apostles in leadership roles as most of the Apostles were martyred.

Nice little study! I would go a bit farther to suggest that if a person get to know the Lord so that the person just starts doing what the Lord tells them then Christ in them is the leader and Priest, so that we who listen to Him and follow Him are the nation of priests (mentioned in the Scriptures) because He is always with us and we are serving Him. After all - have we not all (who know Him) been given the responsibility to pray (intercede) for others, and even to make sacrifices (according to what He askes us personally to do) for others?

Anyway - I liked the short study.

 

[K2K]

A Jesuit (an "advance guard" and "special forces" of the Catholic faith), who denied the foundation of scripture, and that which is written therein by what he taught. Big-Bangism theology is bankrupt and self-refuting, and violates all known laws by which it purports to have produced.

Jesuits must adhere to the following:

Are not Christian supposed to follow their Lord Jesus Christ?

And is the cornerstone that was thrown away the Scriptures or Jesus Christ?

According to the Scriptures I see big problems with you assumptions! Mainly that you have thrown away Jesus Christ and replaced Him with the rules of men and an extremely faulty interpretation of the very Scriptures you are putting your faith in.

I understand that people do that - even people that are supposed to be His people. Jesus told the Jews that they searched the Scriptures thinking in them they had eternal life instead of coming to Him.

He is a "Him"!! He is not the sacred writings -- which are able to give you the wisdom to find salvation which is through "Him", but being able to give you that wisdom does not mean they did. Perhaps a person read the sacred writings and failed to believe in "Him"!

If a person writes that we "must adhere to the following" and they are not saying Jesus Christ then they are not looking to Him are they?

And the person who supposes He knows, according to the Scriptures, has a problem, does he not?

1 Cor 8:1-3 Now concerning food offered to idols: we know that "all of us possess knowledge." "Knowledge" puffs up, but love builds up. If any one imagines that he knows something, he does not yet know as he ought to know. But if one loves God, one is known by him.

The priest "Georges Lemaitre." brought to my attention by another poster seemed to be to be on the right track. It seemed that as a person he was seeking the Lord and an understanding of the Lord. A person's understanding of the Lord should primarily be obtained through a personal relationship with the Lord- which is to say we need to seeking His voice and listen to what He has to say to us personally. Yet doing that causes us to look into Him even more, does it not.?

So while one person may search the Scriptures because they think that in them they have eternal life, another person may search the Scriptures to find out more about the One who talks to them. And science is another way to seek more information about Him who talks to you. Of course since you know Him personally, you understand that it is not your understanding but His that is important. It doesn't take many actual conversations with Him to figure out that He is way beyond you. You stand a better chance of flapping your arms and getting to the moon that you have of understanding the depths of God. Yet still He created us to want to know more. And if you know Him you want to know more about Him, as previously mentioned.

So I like looking at the Scriptures to find our more about Him who talks to me. And I like looking to the cosmos to find out more about Him who made it all. And what do I find? Well simply put - the more I look into Him who talks to me that greater I find out that He is - therefore the less I think that my simply understanding as a person could ever match His understanding. That in causes me to turn back to Him and seek His voice more, and to listen to Him.

All that shows me how silly some people are by seeking to lean on their own understanding and especially their own understanding of the Scriptures and the making their own rules. Do you not know that the foremost command is "Hear, O Israel"??? It is by hearing from the Lord that we learn to love the Lord and thus fulfill the first command in the Law of God "You shall love the Lord with all your heart..."

So if you don't listen to the Lord Jesus Christ as the Word of God you are not keeping that foremost command that should be on your door posts, so to speak. And then you do not love the Lord your God with all your heart... And are you not then seeking the Scriptures thinking in them you have eternal life instead of coming to Him?

Mark 12:28 And one of the scribes came up and heard them disputing with one another, and seeing that he answered them well, asked him, "Which commandment is the first of all?"

Mark 12:29 Jesus answered, "The first is, 'Hear, O Israel: The Lord our God, the Lord is one;

You understand that "Hear, I Israel" is a commandment right? It leads to understanding the the Lord our God is one. It also lead to us loving Him.

Mark 12:30 and you shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, and with all your soul, and with all your mind, and with all your strength.'

This command "Hear, O Israel" is supposed to be on the doorpost, so that the going into and coming out is accomplished by hearing (and you understand that I mean going into the heavenlles )

Deut 6:4-6 Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God is one LORD; and you shall love the LORD your God with all your heart, and with all your soul, and with all your might. And these words which I command you this day shall be upon your heart;

Indeed, if you listen to the Lord you shall love Him, because what He says to you personally is so incredible, and it shall be that "Hear, O Israel" will also remain on your heart for the same reason that what He says to you is so incredible - and perhaps the most incredible thing you hear Him say to you personally is: "Karl, I love you" - Well that is what I hear. I'm certain that He you call you by our name. Yet how incredible is it that He (the HIM) who made all things would talk to me. That is incredible. It is more incredible when knowledge increases because the more you find out the greater you find out that He is.

Let me ask and you consider - Is it greater that He created this world you personally live in in seven days to that He we know that He made hundreds of billions of galaxies of with millions of star each of which our Sun is just average, of which we are on just a little planet which has over a billion people, made up of extremely small molecules, made up of smaller atoms, which is made of particles like electrons which are soo small that the relative distance between them is like the earth to the sun, and there are smaller things like quarks, and that it get stranger still to where we seem to think there is this energy call dark energy because we can't find it and there seems to be much more of this energy that we can't find than that which we can - Then we go back to thinking about Him who talks to us, knowing that He had you pray for people and you watched legs grow out in front of you, growths shrink under your fingers, and hundreds of other things. Then you conclusion is and can only be that you need to listen to Him, but find people saying that you must follow the rules.

Funny, He too wants you to follow the rules!! The first of which is "Hear, O Israel" - which is the first not followed, isn't it? Instead they search the Scriptures thinking in them they have eternal life. They make rules for themselves which do not start of with listening to Him. yet they proclaim they are following the Scriptures?

Jn 5:46,47 If you believed Moses, you would believe me, for he wrote of me. But if you do not believe his writings, how will you believe my words?"

They search the Scriptures but they don't believe them, otherwise they would know that they first need to seek the Kingdom of God which has a King, our Lord Jesus Christ!!!

 

[BobRyan]

So, Bob, If they were to travel to Venus by space craft.... At what point in time would NASA start stating "They will be home in 15/243's of a day?
Or, "they have been there for 10/243's of a day?

A day exists on Venus, a "day" exists on Mars and it is specific to the context - the rotation of the planet you are on.

If you want to translate time between a day on Mars vs a day on Earth then you have those formulas for getting to the same number of hours no matter which "day" is being referenced given a system of two planets and different rotation speed.

There is no need to assume, speculate, extrapolate, stretch, bend or skew any of the days of creation into anything but our standard 24 hours.

Indeed - context is everything - which is why we like exegesis so much

================================

BTW

"A day on Venus lasts for 243 Earth days or 5,832 hours! A day on Earth is 23.943 hours. Venus also rotates backwards compared to the Earth and most of the other planets."

well "So much" for preserving angular momentum in that accretion disc that supposedly formed the solar system - eh?

 

[Root of Jesse]

And what was it that Jesus and His disciples had before them that night.

The Passover meal.

So what was it that Jesus and His disciples ate that night? Bread. What was it that they drank? The fruit of the vine: grape juice. He didn't give them His own flesh and blood for He was right there with them. His object lesson was clearly symbolic just like the Passover lamb was symbolic of His death on Calvary.

That's not what the Passover meal is. It's a lamb, which in that particular case was Jesus, himself.

People read all kinds of things into His statements that night, but the context of the story of the last supper tells us Jesus' meaning was symbolic just like the Passover lamb was symbolic.

But we're talking about John 6, where the disciples heard him say "Unless you eat my flesh and drink my blood, you have no life in you." And they walked away. It wasn't a misunderstanding, because Jesus didn't try to explain it differently.

Jesus replaced one ceremony with another. He also replaced one symbolic event with another. The first symbolic event looked forward to Him. The second looked back to remind us of Him and His sacrifice. Just like the Passover lamb looked forward to Him and His sacrifice.

It wasn't a symbolic event. It was a commemoration by re-enactment.

 

[Root of Jesse]

Ironic that you should bring up Zwingli. I'm reading J. H. Merle d'Aubigne's history of the 16th Century Reformation. Outstanding book. I also, not too long ago, finished reading the Selected Works of Huldrich Zwingli made available for download by The Online Library of Liberty. Another very good read. And Zwingli was correct in his theology. That you want to go back to the day's before the Reformation and the obvious corruption of the church of those days is sad. Truth keeps moving on. It's always going forward from one truth to the next and it always ties together in an unmistakable way. New truth never contradicts old truth. They just build on each other.

And the doctrine of transubstantiation does not fit with the teachings of the Bible. Therefore it is not truth.

Edit: Forgot to answer your question on creation. Yes, I believe in the Bible's story of creation. Literally. It's a literal story, just like the story of the last supper. Only what Jesus said there about His body and his blood was symbolic. Moses' story of creation is is not a story that is symbolic. He uses no symbolic language like Jesus did at the last supper.

What about John 6?

 

[Root of Jesse]

And that's your opinion. You're welcome to it, but all I see is opinion. And I take personal opinions for what for they are worth. Not much. You're defending the organization that burned people at the stake, tortured them in dungeons, drowned people, etc... for having their own opinions. I respect those who died for trusting God's word more than man's much more than I respect someone who thinks that organization is the one to follow.

That organization showed the spirit of the devil, not the spirit of God. God died to show man what he is worth in the eyes of God. The organization you're defending murdered people for having a conscience and not surrendering to the dictates of those who made themselves their enemies. I find those murdered people heroic and well worth emulating. I don't find the behavior of those who murdered people by the millions worth emulating and find their behavior to be the fruits of their theology. That those murders showed no semblance of the love of God says it all as far as I'm concerned. Oh, and the life styles they lived showed they had little use for the word of God. Any organization that would put people as evil as the Borgias at the head of a church is beyond sick in my eyes. Paul says anyone who practices the lusts of the flesh will never go to heaven, and yet you proclaim those type of people to be infallibly in the right.[/QUOTE]
That's your opinion. But we never claimed to all be saintly. We're all sinners. Even popes. And even with bad popes, we're still the faith of Jesus Christ.

 

[K2K]

1. The Bible is correct when it comes to its historic account (Gen 1:2-2:4) of how it is that all life on earth gets here in a literal 7 day week as we see defined in legal code - Exodus 20:11. ("Legal code" is not parable or allegory or ...)

• It is "compatible with science fact"

I have made many posts on this thread showing how the above is wrong, and wrong according to the Bible, science, and even from actually listening to the Lord - but I though I might summarize based on the Bible, because this section of the Christian forum is focused on the Bible.

So:

1] Ps 78 explains the Lord speaks to us in parables and dark sayings!!!! To state "("Legal code" is not parable or allegory or ...)" is not Biblical!! It is simply calling God a lair. He speaks to us in parables and dark saying even if you don't understand that, if for no other reason than He said He does!

2] The Bible explains that His thoughts are not our thoughts. We of course think in 24 hour days but if and since He said His thoughts are not our thoughts we are wrong to think of them as 24 hour days, again simply because He said His thoughts are not our thoughts. You make God a lair to think otherwise.

3] The Bible explains that we are not to lean on our own understanding, (Prov 3:5) and that clearly is what we are doing by saying they have to be 24 hours day. So in this case we are not doing what the Lord commanded us to do. We are leaning on are understanding instead of seeking His understanding

4] The Bible says do not be wise in your own eyes. This ties in with 3 but is not quite the same. You see this in Prov 3:7 Do not be wise in your own eyes... This is interesting because just a few veress away we read Prov 3:19 The Lord by wisdom founded the the earth. By understanding He established the heavens. In Proverbs we see that wisdom and understand apply to someone you find, like Jesus Christ and the Holy Spirit. We read things like My son, give attention to my wisdom, Incline your ear to my understanding.

5] The Bible says to hear His voice! Four leads us directly to # 5. His mouth is not His book. The Scriptures clearly explain in many places that we must live by everyword that proceeds out of His mouth, not just the Scriptures. Indeed our faith must be in Him, not in the Scriptures. I go over this a lot because I come across this a lot on the forum. Seek Him will give you greater insight than just the Scriptures alone

6] The Bible says that a 1000 years is like a day and a day is like a 1000 years to the Lord. This is of course a parable, which goes back to #1 and #2, #3, #4, and #5, and contradicts the OP and proves the Scriptures are correct though we become wrong by leaning on our own understanding. Someone tried to write that 'a 1000 years is like a day' is not a parable but that is of course just stubbornness because it says 'like' and not 'is'. It is clearly a parable or saying and not literal, but people will deny anything even when clearly shown to be wrong, just because of our pride which results in stubbornness which is like witchcraft because our pride and stubbornness keeps us from seeking Him and causes us to lean on our own understanding. Anyway, that saying of 1,000 years is like a day and a day is like a 1000 years is clearly about days to God and that those days in Genesis are not to be taken literally.

7] God said knowledge would increase. If then we say that knowledge is not increasing we again call God a lair. It was one thing for people thousands of years ago to think it was done in a literal 7 days but with knowledge increasing, as we should obvious be able to see, then it becomes quite a different thing for us to still think that. It shows we simply do not believe that God is correct in that He said knowledge would increase. It has and shows us that indeed those days are not 24 hour periods but instead it should indeed cause us to realize that His concept of time is not our concept of time.

8] By reading in different places in the Bible we should be able to see that from the Bible, His concept of time is not our concept of time. You could get this from a number of places, but I used Daniel as an example. God spoke to Daniel concerning weeks that it would take and when we look back it becomes apparent that they were weeks of years. Of course we also see Daniel taking literal weeks in his personal time devoted to God. So Daniel was aware of that God had a different concept of time than he did, and we should have also realized that when reading the book of Daniel. Again, it is wrong according to a reading of the Bible to think they are literal 24 hour days.

9] Jesus said He was the truth! Now the Scriptures came from people thousands of years ago writing from their personal relationship with Him, but they are not Him. This can be seen in a number of places like in Gal 3:22 "But the Scriptures has shut up everyone under sin, so that the promise of faith in Jesus Christ might be given to those who believe." - Now Jesus is the truth in that what He tells us is true, and we are finding out that the truth is not that the universe was created in 7 24 hour days. Jesus did lie when He told Moses about seven days, but Moses was not in a position to understand the depths of God. Neither are we for that matter. And the matter I am talking about is the universe. So the Truth, Jesus the Christ whose name is called The Word of God, talked to Moses thousands of years ago in a parable that is true but perhaps not as we understand it. That is still true today! The point I am making is that we increase in knowledge but we still don't understand that true depths of God thought He speaks to us. That is to say; We are not the Truth He is!! And by our understanding we are not going to be!

10] The Bible explains that we know we have knowledge but if anyone supposed he knows anything He does not yet know as he aught to know. This come from 1 Cor 8 1-3 and it applies so well to this stupid argument over whether it was 7 literal 24 hours days or not. If you are supposing you know, according to the Bible, you don't! Indeed coming across that way make you arrogant! That is written right there in the Bible


Now people might think I am arrogant, but if you read closely I am not asking you to believe me but I am asking you to seek the Lord and listen to Him. He matches up with the Scriptures even though you don't.

 

[pescador]

I have made many posts on this thread showing how the above is wrong, and wrong according to the Bible, science, and even from actually listening to the Lord - but I though I might summarize based on the Bible, because this section of the Christian forum is focused on the Bible.

So:

1] Ps 78 explains the Lord speaks to us in parables and dark sayings!!!! To state "("Legal code" is not parable or allegory or ...)" is not Biblical!! It is simply calling God a lair. He speaks to us in parables and dark saying even if you don't understand that, if for no other reason than He said He does!

2] The Bible explains that His thoughts are not our thoughts. We of course think in 24 hour days but if and since He said His thoughts are not our thoughts we are wrong to think of them as 24 hour days, again simply because He said His thoughts are not our thoughts. You make God a lair to think otherwise.

3] The Bible explains that we are not to lean on our own understanding, (Prov 3:5) and that clearly is what we are doing by saying they have to be 24 hours day. So in this case we are not doing what the Lord commanded us to do. We are leaning on are understanding instead of seeking His understanding

4] The Bible says do not be wise in your own eyes. This ties in with 3 but is not quite the same. You see this in Prov 3:7 Do not be wise in your own eyes... This is interesting because just a few veress away we read Prov 3:19 The Lord by wisdom founded the the earth. By understanding He established the heavens. In Proverbs we see that wisdom and understand apply to someone you find, like Jesus Christ and the Holy Spirit. We read things like My son, give attention to my wisdom, Incline your ear to my understanding.

5] The Bible says to hear His voice! Four leads us directly to # 5. His mouth is not His book. The Scriptures clearly explain in many places that we must live by everyword that proceeds out of His mouth, not just the Scriptures. Indeed our faith must be in Him, not in the Scriptures. I go over this a lot because I come across this a lot on the forum. Seek Him will give you greater insight than just the Scriptures alone

6] The Bible says that a 1000 years is like a day and a day is like a 1000 years to the Lord. This is of course a parable, which goes back to #1 and #2, #3, #4, and #5, and contradicts the OP and proves the Scriptures are correct though we become wrong by leaning on our own understanding. Someone tried to write that 'a 1000 years is like a day' is not a parable but that is of course just stubbornness because it says 'like' and not 'is'. It is clearly a parable or saying and not literal, but people will deny anything even when clearly shown to be wrong, just because of our pride which results in stubbornness which is like witchcraft because our pride and stubbornness keeps us from seeking Him and causes us to lean on our own understanding. Anyway, that saying of 1,000 years is like a day and a day is like a 1000 years is clearly about days to God and that those days in Genesis are not to be taken literally.

7] God said knowledge would increase. If then we say that knowledge is not increasing we again call God a lair. It was one thing for people thousands of years ago to think it was done in a literal 7 days but with knowledge increasing, as we should obvious be able to see, then it becomes quite a different thing for us to still think that. It shows we simply do not believe that God is correct in that He said knowledge would increase. It has and shows us that indeed those days are not 24 hour periods but instead it should indeed cause us to realize that His concept of time is not our concept of time.

8] By reading in different places in the Bible we should be able to see that from the Bible, His concept of time is not our concept of time. You could get this from a number of places, but I used Daniel as an example. God spoke to Daniel concerning weeks that it would take and when we look back it becomes apparent that they were weeks of years. Of course we also see Daniel taking literal weeks in his personal time devoted to God. So Daniel was aware of that God had a different concept of time than he did, and we should have also realized that when reading the book of Daniel. Again, it is wrong according to a reading of the Bible to think they are literal 24 hour days.

9] Jesus said He was the truth! Now the Scriptures came from people thousands of years ago writing from their personal relationship with Him, but they are not Him. This can be seen in a number of places like in Gal 3:22 "But the Scriptures has shut up everyone under sin, so that the promise of faith in Jesus Christ might be given to those who believe." - Now Jesus is the truth in that what He tells us is true, and we are finding out that the truth is not that the universe was created in 7 24 hour days. Jesus did lie when He told Moses about seven days, but Moses was not in a position to understand the depths of God. Neither are we for that matter. And the matter I am talking about is the universe. So the Truth, Jesus the Christ whose name is called The Word of God, talked to Moses thousands of years ago in a parable that is true but perhaps not as we understand it. That is still true today! The point I am making is that we increase in knowledge but we still don't understand that true depths of God thought He speaks to us. That is to say; We are not the Truth He is!! And by our understanding we are not going to be!

10] The Bible explains that we know we have knowledge but if anyone supposed he knows anything He does not yet know as he aught to know. This come from 1 Cor 8 1-3 and it applies so well to this stupid argument over whether it was 7 literal 24 hours days or not. If you are supposing you know, according to the Bible, you don't! Indeed coming across that way make you arrogant! That is written right there in the Bible


Now people might think I am arrogant, but if you read closely I am not asking you to believe me but I am asking you to seek the Lord and listen to Him. He matches up with the Scriptures even though you don't.

The Bible says do not be wise in your own eyes.

 

[AmigodeJesus]

Are not Christian supposed to follow their Lord Jesus Christ? ...

??? ??? ??? is my perplexity in reaction to the response in toto.

 

[AmigodeJesus]

The Bible says do not be wise in your own eyes.

Thank God for His word, and such infinite wisdom as that.

 

[BobRyan]

BobRyan said: ↑
1. The Bible is correct when it comes to its historic account (Gen 1:2-2:4) of how it is that all life on earth gets here in a literal 7 day week as we see defined in legal code - Exodus 20:11. ("Legal code" is not parable or allegory or ...)

• It is "compatible with science fact"

I have made many posts on this thread showing how the above is wrong, and wrong according to the Bible, science

You can't be serious - may we have a link to one of your posts that does that?

I though I might summarize based on the Bible, because this section of the Christian forum is focused on the Bible.

Ok this is convenient -- we won't have to go back through all the posts to try and find out what you mean by your statement. Thanks...

So:
1] Ps 78 explains the Lord speaks to us in parables and dark sayings!!!!

But does not say we cannot read the Bible and believe what we read.

My point remains.. Did you have something more direct and to the point?

To state "("Legal code" is not parable or allegory or ...)" is not Biblical!!

At this point I think you have lost the idea of logic and exegesis.
Please be serious.

2] The Bible explains that His thoughts are not our thoughts.

You are going down a blind alley with all these out-in-left field statement about legal code being in the form of dark saying, myth, parable.. etc.

Legal code by defintion is plain and obvious easy to understand because the purpose is to give the reader an immediate understanding between right and wrong.

The Bible is correct when it comes to its historic account (Gen 1:2-2:4) of how it is that all life on earth gets here in a literal 7 day week as we see defined in legal code - Exodus 20:11.

Ex 20:8-11 "six days YOU shall labor...for in SIX days the Lord made" -- incredibly obvious for the readers even in Moses' day.. so they knew the working days from the day of worship and as it turns out - they even had the death penalty for violation - so "not rocket science" for everyone to count to 7 starting on day 1.

This is incredibly easy.

And Ex 20:11 is the easy summary of Gene 1:2-2:4
11 For in six days the Lord made the heavens and the earth, the sea and all that is in them, and rested on the seventh day; therefore the Lord blessed the sabbath day and made it holy.

easy...
simple..
obvious...
and yes ... legal code ... not poetry or parable so everyone knew what was sin and what was not when they saw that written in stone.

Gen 2:1-3 is as well
Thus the heavens and the earth were completed, and all their hosts. 2 By the seventh day God completed His work which He had done, and He rested on the seventh day from all His work which He had done. 3 Then God blessed the seventh day and sanctified it, because in it He rested from all His work which God had created and made.

easy...
simple..
obvious...

We can all count to 7... the level of difficulty here is very very low.

Notice my signature line - Christian scholars admit to this particular easy detail.