VOTE HOW MANY BELIEVE IN A PRE TRIBULATION HOPE/RAPTURE ?

[Jeffrey Bowden]

The pre-Trib rapture is the next prophesied event in the Bible.

The proof is in Acts 1:9-11 and 1 Th 4:16-17.

Acts 1:11 serves as a prophetic guideline for the next coming of Jesus Christ. Here is verse 11 (ESV): and said, “Men of Galilee, why do you stand looking into heaven? This Jesus, who was taken up from you into heaven, will come in the same way as you saw him go into heaven.”

Acts 1:11 is about "the same way" that the next return of Jesus will occur. Acts 1:11 isn’t about location; it’s explicitly about “the same way as you saw Him go into Heaven.” Jesus ascended by Himself, in the view of believers only (His disciples), and a heavenly cloud then took him out of their sight (Acts 1:9).

That next return of Jesus must follow the reverse-sequence of His ascension. The reverse-sequence would be: Jesus will descend by Himself, behind heavenly clouds, and into the view of believers, only.

In 1 Th 4:16, Jesus will descend by Himself. It’s also important that it doesn’t say He will be seen by the whole world. This is because, as evidence will show in verse 17, Jesus will descend behind heavenly clouds. His descension will end into the view of believers, only (also in verse 17).

In 1 Th 4:17, we won't see Jesus until we pass through clouds, to meet Him in the air. This is very important: we have to pass through clouds before we can even see Jesus. Those are the heavenly clouds that will keep Jesus from being seen by the world below in His descent. Jesus will descend by Himself, behind clouds, and into the view of believers only, as the exact reverse-sequence of His ascension.

It is impossible for that reverse-sequence to apply to the 2A (2nd Advent). The 2A starts with Jesus ON CLOUDS and in full view of the world (Matt 24:30 and Rev 1:7). Therefore, right at the start of the 2A, Jesus will not be in alignment with Acts 1:11. In full, Jesus will be ON CLOUDS (not BEHIND clouds); He's not by Himself (Matt 24:31); and He will be in full view of billions of unbelievers, as they mourn (Matt 24:30). That's all perfect for the 2A, but it doesn't align in the least with Acts 1:11. Therefore, it is biblically impossible for the 2A to be the next prophesied return of Jesus Christ.

Those are the biblical facts of the next coming of Jesus Christ.

Your turn. Prove me wrong, and I mean PROVE me wrong. Silly assertions are not proof. Stand up and PROVE me wrong.

Apostle Paul first introduced the pre-Trib timing of the rapture in 1 Th 1:10 (ESV): and to wait for his Son from heaven, whom he raised from the dead, Jesus who delivers us from the wrath to come.

What are some certified examples of God's wrath? Ezekiel 14:21 (NLT): “Now this is what the Sovereign Lord says: How terrible it will be when all four of these dreadful punishments fall upon Jerusalem—war, famine, wild animals, and disease—destroying all her people and animals.

Please note that "war" can be a certified form of God's wrath (one of the "dreadful punishments").

In the Trib, the 2nd seal is opened in Rev 6:3. Its devastating effects are achieved through wars, described in Rev 6:4 (NLT): Then another horse appeared, a red one. Its rider was given a mighty sword and the authority to take peace from the earth. And there was war and slaughter everywhere.

So, there you see that God's wrath, in the Trib, begins no later than the 2nd seal, which is sure to be opened on day 1. This is precisely what Paul was writing about in 1 Th 1:10.

 

[keras]

1 Thessalonians 4:15-17 This is a word from the Lord; those of His people who are still alive when the Lord comes, will have no advantage over those who have died.
...when Gods trumpet sounds and Jesus descends from heaven, firstly the Christian dead will rise, then we who are still alive will join them.
Thus, we shall always be with the Lord. [on the earth]

Zechariah 14:4-5 On that Day His feet will stand on the Mount of Olives.....the Lord will appear, attended by all His holy ones.
The angel armies of heaven; Matthew 16:27, Revelation 19:14

Scripture reads clearly – the so called rapture is actually just a gathering, which will occur when Jesus Christ returns at the end of the Great Tribulation.
The doctrine that His “church” people are simply waiting to be whisked away into heaven tends to produce a carefree and careless attitude in those awaiting Christ’s Return. Tragically, millions are now being set up to ‘simply believe in Jesus and don’t worry about anything else”. This is short-sighted, irresponsible thinking.
Many verses show that Christianity involves active effort, at the very least “watch and pray always”.

Many of the Bible’s greatest prophecies culminate in the Return of Jesus. This will be the most wonderful event that the world has seen, but what precedes it will be very different – terrible disasters and tribulations will engulf every society. It will take great trust and faith in Gods power to hold steady until the end.
Luke 18:8 When the Son of Man comes, will He find faith on the earth?

God wants you to rely on Him, to trust Him completely. In the near future , when others are gripped by fear, uncertainty and confusion and have no idea of where to turn to for answers, God does not want His people to agonise over what may happen next.

Luke 21:18-19 Not a hair of your head will be lost. By standing firm you will win yourselves life.

Revelation 13:10 ..... this calls for the endurance and faithfulness of Gods people.

Matthew 24:30-31 And then shall appear.... the son of Man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. He shall send His angels with the sound of the great trumpet, and they shall gather His faithful people from heaven, [the souls of the martyrs] and the four corners of the earth. [every person who kept their trust in God]

Daniel 7:27 The kingly power and sovereignty of all the kingdoms under heaven will be given to the Holy people of the Most High. Their power will last forever and every realm will serve and obey them.
Reference; Revised English Bible, some verses abridged

 

[Jeffrey Bowden]

1 Thessalonians 4:15-17 This is a word from the Lord; those of His people who are still alive when the Lord comes, will have no advantage over those who have died.
...when Gods trumpet sounds and Jesus descends from heaven, firstly the Christian dead will rise, then we who are still alive will join them.
Thus, we shall always be with the Lord. [on the earth]

Zechariah 14:4-5 On that Day His feet will stand on the Mount of Olives.....the Lord will appear, attended by all His holy ones.
The angel armies of heaven; Matthew 16:27, Revelation 19:14

Scripture reads clearly – the so called rapture is actually just a gathering, which will occur when Jesus Christ returns at the end of the Great Tribulation.
The doctrine that His “church” people are simply waiting to be whisked away into heaven tends to produce a carefree and careless attitude in those awaiting Christ’s Return. Tragically, millions are now being set up to ‘simply believe in Jesus and don’t worry about anything else”. This is short-sighted, irresponsible thinking.
Many verses show that Christianity involves active effort, at the very least “watch and pray always”.

Many of the Bible’s greatest prophecies culminate in the Return of Jesus. This will be the most wonderful event that the world has seen, but what precedes it will be very different – terrible disasters and tribulations will engulf every society. It will take great trust and faith in Gods power to hold steady until the end.
Luke 18:8 When the Son of Man comes, will He find faith on the earth?

God wants you to rely on Him, to trust Him completely. In the near future , when others are gripped by fear, uncertainty and confusion and have no idea of where to turn to for answers, God does not want His people to agonise over what may happen next.

Luke 21:18-19 Not a hair of your head will be lost. By standing firm you will win yourselves life.

Revelation 13:10 ..... this calls for the endurance and faithfulness of Gods people.

Matthew 24:30-31 And then shall appear.... the son of Man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. He shall send His angels with the sound of the great trumpet, and they shall gather His faithful people from heaven, [the souls of the martyrs] and the four corners of the earth. [every person who kept their trust in God]

Daniel 7:27 The kingly power and sovereignty of all the kingdoms under heaven will be given to the Holy people of the Most High. Their power will last forever and every realm will serve and obey them.
Reference; Revised English Bible, some verses abridged

1 Thessalonians 4:15-17 This is a word from the Lord; those of His people who are still alive when the Lord comes, will have no advantage over those who have died.
...when Gods trumpet sounds and Jesus descends from heaven, firstly the Christian dead will rise, then we who are still alive will join them.
Thus, we shall always be with the Lord. [on the earth]

Zechariah 14:4-5 On that Day His feet will stand on the Mount of Olives.....the Lord will appear, attended by all His holy ones.
The angel armies of heaven; Matthew 16:27, Revelation 19:14

Scripture reads clearly – the so called rapture is actually just a gathering, which will occur when Jesus Christ returns at the end of the Great Tribulation.
The doctrine that His “church” people are simply waiting to be whisked away into heaven tends to produce a carefree and careless attitude in those awaiting Christ’s Return. Tragically, millions are now being set up to ‘simply believe in Jesus and don’t worry about anything else”. This is short-sighted, irresponsible thinking.
Many verses show that Christianity involves active effort, at the very least “watch and pray always”.

Many of the Bible’s greatest prophecies culminate in the Return of Jesus. This will be the most wonderful event that the world has seen, but what precedes it will be very different – terrible disasters and tribulations will engulf every society. It will take great trust and faith in Gods power to hold steady until the end.
Luke 18:8 When the Son of Man comes, will He find faith on the earth?

God wants you to rely on Him, to trust Him completely. In the near future , when others are gripped by fear, uncertainty and confusion and have no idea of where to turn to for answers, God does not want His people to agonise over what may happen next.

Luke 21:18-19 Not a hair of your head will be lost. By standing firm you will win yourselves life.

Revelation 13:10 ..... this calls for the endurance and faithfulness of Gods people.

Matthew 24:30-31 And then shall appear.... the son of Man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. He shall send His angels with the sound of the great trumpet, and they shall gather His faithful people from heaven, [the souls of the martyrs] and the four corners of the earth. [every person who kept their trust in God]

Daniel 7:27 The kingly power and sovereignty of all the kingdoms under heaven will be given to the Holy people of the Most High. Their power will last forever and every realm will serve and obey them.
Reference; Revised English Bible, some verses abridged

1 Thessalonians 4:15-17 This is a word from the Lord; those of His people who are still alive when the Lord comes, will have no advantage over those who have died.
...when Gods trumpet sounds and Jesus descends from heaven, firstly the Christian dead will rise, then we who are still alive will join them.
Thus, we shall always be with the Lord. [on the earth]

Zechariah 14:4-5 On that Day His feet will stand on the Mount of Olives.....the Lord will appear, attended by all His holy ones.
The angel armies of heaven; Matthew 16:27, Revelation 19:14

Scripture reads clearly – the so called rapture is actually just a gathering, which will occur when Jesus Christ returns at the end of the Great Tribulation.
The doctrine that His “church” people are simply waiting to be whisked away into heaven tends to produce a carefree and careless attitude in those awaiting Christ’s Return. Tragically, millions are now being set up to ‘simply believe in Jesus and don’t worry about anything else”. This is short-sighted, irresponsible thinking.
Many verses show that Christianity involves active effort, at the very least “watch and pray always”.

Many of the Bible’s greatest prophecies culminate in the Return of Jesus. This will be the most wonderful event that the world has seen, but what precedes it will be very different – terrible disasters and tribulations will engulf every society. It will take great trust and faith in Gods power to hold steady until the end.
Luke 18:8 When the Son of Man comes, will He find faith on the earth?

God wants you to rely on Him, to trust Him completely. In the near future , when others are gripped by fear, uncertainty and confusion and have no idea of where to turn to for answers, God does not want His people to agonise over what may happen next.

Luke 21:18-19 Not a hair of your head will be lost. By standing firm you will win yourselves life.

Revelation 13:10 ..... this calls for the endurance and faithfulness of Gods people.

Matthew 24:30-31 And then shall appear.... the son of Man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. He shall send His angels with the sound of the great trumpet, and they shall gather His faithful people from heaven, [the souls of the martyrs] and the four corners of the earth. [every person who kept their trust in God]

Daniel 7:27 The kingly power and sovereignty of all the kingdoms under heaven will be given to the Holy people of the Most High. Their power will last forever and every realm will serve and obey them.
Reference; Revised English Bible, some verses abridged

This is from you:
...when Gods trumpet sounds and Jesus descends from heaven, firstly the Christian dead will rise, then we who are still alive will join them.
Thus, we shall always be with the Lord. [on the earth]

You intentionally omitted words from 1 Th 4:17.

This is the COMPLETE (no words are intentionally omitted) 1 Th 4:17 (ESV): Then we who are alive, who are left, will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we will always be with the Lord.

We are raptured into the clouds: "... caught up together with them in the clouds .."

Then we: "meet the Lord in the air, and so we will always be with the Lord." ----- That means we go to Heaven. This is the same as John 14:3 (ESV): And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again and will take you to myself, that where I am you may be also.

Jesus does not return to Earth in the rapture.

 

[keras]

Then we: "meet the Lord in the air, and so we will always be with the Lord." ----- That means we go to Heaven.

No; Jesus is Returning to the earth and those faithful people, those who endured until the end; will be gathered by His angels and transported to Jerusalem, where He will be for the next thousand years.

It is a false assumption to think the Christians will be taken up to heaven. We are earth creatures and never leave the earth, [only a few astronauts] The rapture theory is escapism at its worst. It makes people complacent and careless about the future. It is wrong and not scriptural.

As a Christian, I serve the Lord on earth now and I look forward to the fulfilment of Gods Promises, as we all live in peace and prosperity in the holy Land. Ezekiel 34:11-16, Isaiah 62:1-5, Romans 9:24-26

 

[Jeffrey Bowden]

No; Jesus is Returning to the earth and those faithful people, those who endured until the end; will be gathered by His angels and transported to Jerusalem, where He will be for the next thousand years.

It is a false assumption to think the Christians will be taken up to heaven. We are earth creatures and never leave the earth, [only a few astronauts] The rapture theory is escapism at its worst. It makes people complacent and careless about the future. It is wrong and not scriptural.

As a Christian, I serve the Lord on earth now and I look forward to the fulfilment of Gods Promises, as we all live in peace and prosperity in the holy Land. Ezekiel 34:11-16, Isaiah 62:1-5, Romans 9:24-26

Keras, I will see you after we pass through the clouds and into the view of Jesus, as we meet Him in the air in 1 Th 4:17. God bless you when you come to the realization that you are pre-Trib raptured.

 

[keras]

Keras, I will see you after we pass through the clouds and into the view of Jesus, as we meet Him in the air in 1 Th 4:17. God bless you when you come to the realization that you are pre-Trib raptured.

First; you need a reality check.
We live in a natural world, of flesh and blood. That does not change until Eternity comes. There will be no 'flying off to heaven' for anyone.
For God to do that for His People, is contrary to His plan for mankind and would constitute His failure.

Regarding 1 Thess 4:17, thinking that proves a pre-trib rapture to heaven, is quite wrong.
That Prophecy describes the glorious Return of Jesus to the earth for His Millennium reign and we who are still alive, will be gathered to Jerusalem, where He will be. Zechariah 14:16-21

Nice of you to include me in your fantasies.
But I don't need to imagine anything that is not Prophesied in the Bible. When we get to Jerusalem, it will be like heaven on earth.

 

[Douggg]

We live in a natural world, of flesh and blood. That does not change until Eternity comes. There will be no 'flying off to heaven' for anyone.

Matthew 6:
20 But lay up for yourselves treasures in heaven, where neither moth nor rust doth corrupt, and where thieves do not break through nor steal:

21 For where your treasure is, there will your heart be also.

So your heart is not in heaven because you have no treasures there ?

 

[Jeffrey Bowden]

First; you need a reality check.
We live in a natural world, of flesh and blood. That does not change until Eternity comes. There will be no 'flying off to heaven' for anyone.
For God to do that for His People, is contrary to His plan for mankind and would constitute His failure.

Regarding 1 Thess 4:17, thinking that proves a pre-trib rapture to heaven, is quite wrong.
That Prophecy describes the glorious Return of Jesus to the earth for His Millennium reign and we who are still alive, will be gathered to Jerusalem, where He will be. Zechariah 14:16-21

Nice of you to include me in your fantasies.
But I don't need to imagine anything that is not Prophesied in the Bible. When we get to Jerusalem, it will be like heaven on earth.

Keras, true or false? 1 Th 4:17 has us passing through clouds to meet Jesus in the air. We are then behind those clouds and now in the air to meet Jesus. The world below can't see us. Jesus comes to us, believers only, and only we can see Him. Do you understand that from 1 Th 4:17?

 

[Jeffrey Bowden]

Keras, true or false? 1 Th 4:17 has us passing through clouds to meet Jesus in the air. We are then behind those clouds and now in the air to meet Jesus. The world below can't see us. Jesus comes to us, believers only, and only we can see Him. Do you understand that from 1 Th 4:17?

Because of the prophecy in Acts 1:11, Jesus will return to rapture us to Heaven. That is supported by 1 Th 1:10 and Rev 3:10. We will be raptured before "the wrath to come" and before "the hour of trial," just as Jesus said.

 

[keras]

So your heart is not in heaven because you have no treasures there ?

Physically; no. Spiritually; yes.

Keras, true or false? 1 Th 4:17 has us passing through clouds to meet Jesus in the air. We are then behind those clouds and now in the air to meet Jesus. The world below can't see us. Jesus comes to us, believers only, and only we can see Him. Do you understand that from 1 Th 4:17?

This all happens when Jesus Returns to the earth, for His Millennium reign,
Why do you think you will go to heaven, when Jesus will be on earth?

What will happen to fulfil 1 Thess 4:17, is a transportation, from where we are on earth; to where Jesus will be; in Jerusalem. The same as what happened to Philip. Acts 8:39

Because of the prophecy in Acts 1:11, Jesus will return to rapture us to Heaven. That is supported by 1 Th 1:10 and Rev 3:10. We will be raptured before "the wrath to come" and before "the hour of trial," just as Jesus said.

Jesus never delivers His people by removing them. Many good and faithful Christians have been killed for their faith. Why should you be exempt?

REALITY CHECK:
The teaching of a 'rapture to heaven', is not in the Bible. It is a theory without any proper Biblical support, an incredible and impossible belief, that many gullible people have fallen for.
It is a lie from the father of lies, from the pit of hell and its promoters are ravening wolves who ravage the flock with their false promises.
The people say to their teachers and pastors: Do not give us true visions, give us smooth words and illusions. Isaiah 30:9-10,

Jesus said; do not be deceived. Matthew 24:4 This warning and many other scriptures, show that it is possible for good Christians to believe false ideas, and to grip onto fables, especially with teachings that promise them an easy way out of the worlds troubles.
Paul said in 2 Timothy 4:3-4, that many would disbelieve the truths and will turn to false theories and fables.

That is the unfortunate situation today. The 'many' of the Christian people fail to see or understand the truths of Bible Prophecy. Only a few will know God's plans for our future. Daniel 12:10 and the truths of the Prophetic Word are hidden from the so called wise and learned people. Matthew 11:25-26

 

[Jeffrey Bowden]

Physically; no. Spiritually; yes.

This all happens when Jesus Returns to the earth, for His Millennium reign,
Why do you think you will go to heaven, when Jesus will be on earth?

What will happen to fulfil 1 Thess 4:17, is a transportation, from where we are on earth; to where Jesus will be; in Jerusalem. The same as what happened to Philip. Acts 8:39

Jesus never delivers His people by removing them. Many good and faithful Christians have been killed for their faith. Why should you be exempt?

REALITY CHECK:
The teaching of a 'rapture to heaven', is not in the Bible. It is a theory without any proper Biblical support, an incredible and impossible belief, that many gullible people have fallen for.
It is a lie from the father of lies, from the pit of hell and its promoters are ravening wolves who ravage the flock with their false promises.
The people say to their teachers and pastors: Do not give us true visions, give us smooth words and illusions. Isaiah 30:9-10,

Jesus said; do not be deceived. Matthew 24:4 This warning and many other scriptures, show that it is possible for good Christians to believe false ideas, and to grip onto fables, especially with teachings that promise them an easy way out of the worlds troubles.
Paul said in 2 Timothy 4:3-4, that many would disbelieve the truths and will turn to false theories and fables.

That is the unfortunate situation today. The 'many' of the Christian people fail to see or understand the truths of Bible Prophecy. Only a few will know God's plans for our future. Daniel 12:10 and the truths of the Prophetic Word are hidden from the so called wise and learned people. Matthew 11:25-26

Physically; no. Spiritually; yes.

This all happens when Jesus Returns to the earth, for His Millennium reign,
Why do you think you will go to heaven, when Jesus will be on earth?

What will happen to fulfil 1 Thess 4:17, is a transportation, from where we are on earth; to where Jesus will be; in Jerusalem. The same as what happened to Philip. Acts 8:39

Jesus never delivers His people by removing them. Many good and faithful Christians have been killed for their faith. Why should you be exempt?

REALITY CHECK:
The teaching of a 'rapture to heaven', is not in the Bible. It is a theory without any proper Biblical support, an incredible and impossible belief, that many gullible people have fallen for.
It is a lie from the father of lies, from the pit of hell and its promoters are ravening wolves who ravage the flock with their false promises.
The people say to their teachers and pastors: Do not give us true visions, give us smooth words and illusions. Isaiah 30:9-10,

Jesus said; do not be deceived. Matthew 24:4 This warning and many other scriptures, show that it is possible for good Christians to believe false ideas, and to grip onto fables, especially with teachings that promise them an easy way out of the worlds troubles.
Paul said in 2 Timothy 4:3-4, that many would disbelieve the truths and will turn to false theories and fables.

That is the unfortunate situation today. The 'many' of the Christian people fail to see or understand the truths of Bible Prophecy. Only a few will know God's plans for our future. Daniel 12:10 and the truths of the Prophetic Word are hidden from the so called wise and learned people. Matthew 11:25-26

Jesus never touches the earth in 1 Th 4:16-17. His next descent must be in total alignment with Acts 1:9-11. He descends by Himself (1 Th 4:16). He will be behind clouds when He descends (because He ascended to being behind clouds in Acts 1:9). We won't be able to see Him until we pass through those clouds to meet Him in the air (1 Th 4:17). Jesus descends into the view of believers, only (1 Th 4:17), just as He ascended from the view of believers, only (Acts 1:9).

Where is Jesus now? When and where we meet Jesus, we will be in Heaven. John 14:3 (NIV): And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come back and take you to be with me that you also may be where I am.

You can't connect any verse related to Jerusalem to 1 Th 4:16-17 because (1) Jesus never touches the earth in those verses; and (2) Jesus is to never be seen by unbelievers in his next prophesied return.

 

[keras]

You can't connect any verse related to Jerusalem to 1 Th 4:16-17 because (1) Jesus never touches the earth in those verses;

1 Thessalonians 4:13-17 is quite clearly describing what will happen when Jesus Returns to the earth. ...those Christians who are still alive when the Lord comes......at the Trumpet blast of God, in His power and great glory......

Your failed attempts to make a rapture to heaven out of that Prophecy., loses you all credibility.

When and where we meet Jesus, we will be in Heaven

Wrong.
Jesus will stand on Mt Zion ........ Revelation 14:1 Your belief puts you where Jesus will not be!

I repeat: the rapture doctrine is a false teaching and is never Prophesied to happen. Jesus refutes it; John 3:13

 

[Jeffrey Bowden]

1 Thessalonians 4:13-17 is quite clearly describing what will happen when Jesus Returns to the earth. ...those Christians who are still alive when the Lord comes......at the Trumpet blast of God, in His power and great glory......

Your failed attempts to make a rapture to heaven out of that Prophecy., loses you all credibility.

Wrong.
Jesus will stand on Mt Zion ........ Revelation 14:1 Your belief puts you where Jesus will not be!

I repeat: the rapture doctrine is a false teaching and is never Prophesied to happen. Jesus refutes it; John 3:13

Jesus is done with 1 Th 4:16-17 before the Trib. Rev 14 is in the Trib. Rev 14 therefore relates to the 2A (2nd Advent). 1 Th 4:16-17 have NOTHING to do with the 2A. The trumpet in verse 16 raises the dead in Christ ("in Christ" is the key phrase). They and we together are raptured into the heavenly clouds to meet Jesus in the air. That's what verse 17 says. Jesus can only descend into the view of believers on His next coming (Acts 1:11). That is the rapture. John 14:3 says He will take us to (His Father's house). Therefore, we go straight to His Father's house.

You keep violating the strict guidelines set out in Acts 1:11: On His next return, Jesus can't be seen by any unbelievers. He can't be seen by the world below. He must be behind heavenly clouds, out of view of the wicked world below. This is the rapture, just as Jesus spoke of in Rev 3:10, wherein we are taken to Heaven, just as Jesus says in John 14:3.

 

[keras]

Jesus is done with 1 Th 4:16-17 before the Trib

This is a gross violation of plainly stated scripture. I doubt you would be able to find anyone to support you on this.

raptured into the heavenly clouds to meet Jesus in the air.

Jesus disappeared into the atmospheric clouds at His Ascension. He went to be with God in the Spiritual realm.
Heaven, as the destination for Christians, is just made up by the fooled and deceived rapture believers

we are taken to Heaven, just as Jesus says in John 14:3.

But Jesus doesn't say that, you have made it up and the day will come when you will have to answer for every word and action made in this life.
.

 

[Jeffrey Bowden]

This is a gross violation of plainly stated scripture. I doubt you would be able to find anyone to support you on this.

Jesus disappeared into the atmospheric clouds at His Ascension. He went to be with God in the Spiritual realm.
Heaven, as the destination for Christians, is just made up by the fooled and deceived rapture believers

But Jesus doesn't say that, you have made it up and the day will come when you will have to answer for every word and action made in this life.
.

1 Th 1:10 (NKJV): and to wait for His Son from heaven, whom He raised from the dead, even Jesus who delivers us from the wrath to come.

"Delivers us" in this context, means we are snatched away (raptured): "The second usage of deliverance refers to the Acts of God whereby he rescues his people from danger. The key words nasal [l;v"n] ("draw out, snatched away")," --- Source: Baker's Evangelical Dictionary of Biblical Theology.

God's wrath begins in the Trib no later than the 2nd seal. Here's the 2nd seal: Rev 6:4 (TLB): This time a red horse rode out. Its rider was given a long sword and the authority to banish peace and bring anarchy to the earth; war and killing broke out everywhere. ----- Wars are a form of God's wrath: Ezekiel 14:21 (NLT): “Now this is what the Sovereign Lord says: How terrible it will be when all four of these dreadful punishments fall upon Jerusalem—war, famine, wild animals, and disease—destroying all her people and animals. ----- What Paul was saying in 1 Th 1:10 is we will be raptured before the Trib, because God's wrath starts on day 1.



You said: "Jesus disappeared into the atmospheric clouds at His Ascension. He went to be with God in the Spiritual realm."

Acts 1:9 (ESV): And when he had said these things, as they were looking on, he was lifted up, and a cloud took him out of their sight.
Acts 1:11 (ESV): ... This Jesus, who was taken up from you into heaven, ...

Right after Jesus "was lifted up," "a cloud took him out of their sight" and "into heaven." This is why, in the reverse-sequence for Jesus' next return, He will be behind clouds the entire time, proven true in 1 Th 4:17. Jesus will descend behind heavenly clouds, into the view of believers, only. You can't refute the details to the ascension and the corresponding reverse-sequence for Jesus' NEXT return.

 

[keras]

Delivers us" in this context, means we are snatched away (raptured):

No, that doesn't prove your belief at all.
The context of 1 Thess 1:1-10 and continuing into Chapter 2 is; Pauls appreciation of how the Thessalonians accepted the Gospel.

If Paul really meant to say Jesus will remove His people from His wrath, he would have used words like 'take away', or separate from.
How can you say we will be raptured away before any wrath, when scriptures like 1 Peter 4:12 tell us that Gods wrath is sent to try us?

The idea that the Return must be identical to the Ascension and is when Christians go up to heaven, is laughable. Revelation 19:11-21 shows how wrong you are.

 

[Veve13]

Seems that most people don't believe in a pre trib hope. RIght yes if you believe in a pretrib hope, or no if you believe the word doesn't teach this

Yes

 

[Jeffrey Bowden]

No
There will be no 'rapture to heaven' for anyone; pre, mid or post the Great Tribulation. Jesus said so: No one goes to heaven, except the One who came from there. John 3:13

John 3:13 was written for its time. John wrote Revelation much later, with Rev 3:10 and Rev 4:1, which are both about the pre-Trib rapture. A rapture to Heaven are also stated in Rev 7:9-19 and Rev 11:12. In Rev 7:9, the whole resurrected GM is seen before God’s throne in Heaven. The GM is about millions of new converts from the Trib, all who were martyred for their testimony of Jesus Christ. They are clearly raptured to Heaven in Rev 7:9.

1 Th 1:10 is completely validated by the second definition of “deliver” as being about the pre-Trib rapture. God’s wrath begins in the Trib no later than the 2nd seal. That seal represents the “sudden destruction” in 1 Th 5:3. All that occurs on day 1 of the Trib. In 1 Th 1:10, we are pre-Trib raptured.

 

[Jeffrey Bowden]

No, that doesn't prove your belief at all.
The context of 1 Thess 1:1-10 and continuing into Chapter 2 is; Pauls appreciation of how the Thessalonians accepted the Gospel.

If Paul really meant to say Jesus will remove His people from His wrath, he would have used words like 'take away', or separate from.
How can you say we will be raptured away before any wrath, when scriptures like 1 Peter 4:12 tell us that Gods wrath is sent to try us?

The idea that the Return must be identical to the Ascension and is when Christians go up to heaven, is laughable. Revelation 19:11-21 shows how wrong you are.

You’re denying the truth of 1 Th 1:10 through immature reasoning. Paul didn’t use your words of choice, so it’s false?

You’re literally laughing at the two angels who said to the disciples: Acts 1:11 (ESV): and said, “Men of Galilee, why do you stand looking into heaven? This Jesus, who was taken up from you into heaven, will come in the same way as you saw him go into heaven.”

What does “in the same way” mean?

 

[Jeffrey Bowden]

No, that doesn't prove your belief at all.
The context of 1 Thess 1:1-10 and continuing into Chapter 2 is; Pauls appreciation of how the Thessalonians accepted the Gospel.

If Paul really meant to say Jesus will remove His people from His wrath, he would have used words like 'take away', or separate from.
How can you say we will be raptured away before any wrath, when scriptures like 1 Peter 4:12 tell us that Gods wrath is sent to try us?

The idea that the Return must be identical to the Ascension and is when Christians go up to heaven, is laughable. Revelation 19:11-21 shows how wrong you are.

Rev 19:11-21 is about the 2A (2nd Advent). That cannot be the next coming because it doesn’t align with Acts 1:9-11.

Jesus ascended in Acts 1:9 by Himself, and in the view of believers, only

No, that doesn't prove your belief at all.
The context of 1 Thess 1:1-10 and continuing into Chapter 2 is; Pauls appreciation of how the Thessalonians accepted the Gospel.

If Paul really meant to say Jesus will remove His people from His wrath, he would have used words like 'take away', or separate from.
How can you say we will be raptured away before any wrath, when scriptures like 1 Peter 4:12 tell us that Gods wrath is sent to try us?

The idea that the Return must be identical to the Ascension and is when Christians go up to heaven, is laughable. Revelation 19:11-21 shows how wrong you are.

The sequence Jesus established in Acts 1:9 is: He ascended by Himself, in the view of believers only (His disciples), behind clouds, and into Heaven.

The reverse-sequence Jesus will follow for His next return is: He will descend by Himself (1 Th 4:16), behind clouds (1 Th 4:17) and into the view of believers, only (1 Th 4:17).

We are gathered to Him in 1 Th 4:17 (that doesn’t happen in Matt 24:31):

1 Th 2:1 (NLT): Now, dear brothers and sisters, let us clarify some things about the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and how we will be gathered to meet him.

Please note the “gathered to meet him.” That is 1 Th 4:17 (NIV): After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will be with the Lord forever.

We pass through clouds before we can see Jesus (1 Th 4:17). Those are the same clouds that Jesus is behind in His descent. And, He will descend into the view of believers, only.

We are in Heaven at the end of 1 Th 4:17. John 14:3 (NIV): And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come back and take you to be with me that you also may be where I am.