Voicing Valid Concerns vs Verbal Bashing

[Susan]

I personally think if someone is decieving their followers and stealing money from them, that we should speak out.

Nowhere in the Bible are we called to cover for fraudulent activity and theft.

I also believe it is our duty to speak out if someone is using their ministry as a cover or a recruitment for sexual immorality.

1 Corinthians 5 speaks to how we should deal with unrepentant sexually immoral people in the church.

 

[SpiritPsalmist]

Originally posted by Outspoken
"I would think that Christians calling other Christians names would be leading people away from God "

We are addressing their teachings, not them personally. Big difference.

"I believe scripture to be quite clear about the way we speak to each other.  What we reap we will sow.  The measure that we deal out is the same measure that will be dealt back to us.  By our words we will be judged.  By HIM!  I would think that alone would make us more cautious."

So you believe that you are exempt from these scriptures because your end may justify your means????

Does this also mean that because I believe some of your teachings to be false that I can call you a false teacher?  I won't because it's against what the Bible teaches, but am I allowed to?  If not, then neither should anyone else be allowed to do it.

Quaffer



 

 

[SpiritPsalmist]

Originally posted by Susan
I personally think if someone is decieving their followers and stealing money from them, that we should speak out.

Nowhere in the Bible are we called to cover for fraudulent activity and theft.

Yes, there is, James 5:19, 20 Brethren, if anyone among you wanders from the truth, and someone turns him back, let him know that he who turns a sinner from the error of his way will save a soul from death and cover a multitude of sins.

Jesus gives us the correct way to approach those who are doing this activity.  If we do it any other way, we are in the wrong.

Originally posted by Susan I also believe it is our duty to speak out if someone is using their ministry as a cover or a recruitment for sexual immorality.

Again, Jesus tells us how to do that in Matt 18.

Originally posted by Susan 1 Corinthians 5 speaks to how we should deal with unrepentant sexually immoral people in the church.

The key word here is unrepentant.  Do you know what their leadership has already done regarding the issue?  How do you know they are unrepentant unless you've personally talked to them? 

I know of ministers who are repentant.  They have gone through the necessary correction by those they are accountable to.  Yet . . .there are still people trying to drag their names through the mud.  Seemingly unaware of the judgement they are heaping upon themselves for doing so.

1 Cor 5 does not say it is OK to judge the members of another church.  The church you attend is allowed to judge the members of the church you attend.  Not the church down the street, or around the corner. 

Also, look more closely at verse 11.  I'm using the Amplified since it spells it out more clearly.  "But now I write to you not to associate with anyone who bears the name of [christian] brother if he is known to be guilty of immorality or greed, or is an idolater [whose soul is devoted  to any object that usurps the place of God], or is a person with a foul tongue [railing, abusing, reviling, slandering], or is a drunkard or a swindler or a robber. [No] you must not so much as eat with such a person." 

Wow, we see immorality, greed, idolatery, foul tongue, drunkard, swindler, and robber.  How many of us fall into any of these catagories?   In any of their forms?

Quaffer

 

[Outspoken]

"So you believe that you are exempt from these scriptures because your end may justify your means???? "

I'll be held accountable for what i do just like them. I try to sow watchfulness and reap discernment. That is why I point out false teachings if I see them. I am to do so, just as Paul did with gnostics, judizers, etc..

 

[SpiritPsalmist]

Originally posted by Outspoken
"So you believe that you are exempt from these scriptures because your end may justify your means???? "

I'll be held accountable for what i do just like them. I try to sow watchfulness and reap discernment. That is why I point out false teachings if I see them. I am to do so, just as Paul did with gnostics, judizers, etc..

I'm sorry Outspoken but you did not answer ALL my questions.

For your convenience I've posted them for you again. 

Originally posted by Quaffer Does this also mean that because I believe some of your teachings to be false that I can call you a false teacher?  I won't because it's against what the Bible teaches, but am I allowed to?  If not, then neither should anyone else be allowed to do it.

Sincerely,

Quaffer  

 

[Outspoken]

"Does this also mean that because I believe some of your teachings to be false that I can call you a false teacher?"

Prove them biblically, in context, yup.
Of course you're allowed to call people on false teachings, what do you think Paul did when confronted with them.

 

[Andrew]

Quaffer,

There is indeed a big difference between calling someone's doctrines/teachings false and calling someone a false teacher.

In the former, one is attacking or dealing with the doctrine.

In the latter, one is actually accusing another of having evil intentions to deceive by way of doctrine. ie saying that the Christian is out to mislead another. The Bible calls it wolf in sheep's clothing. IOW, there is this element of wanting to deceive others.

So while we may disagree with one another and say "Hey, that teaching is false or wrong", it is quite another thing to say "Hey, why are you out here to deceive others! You have hidden agendas!"

Most of us are sincerely seeking the truth or sincerely wrong -- not out to deceive with ulterior motives. So unless God has revealed to us that such and such a "brother" is actually a con-artist out to deceive, we should not simply lable another Christian as a false teacher just becos we do not agree with his doctrine.

 

[dignitized]

False teacher is a word thrown around too liberally just like heresy. Some people have the tenancy to call everyone and ANYONE who disagrees doctrinally with them an heretic or false teacher. A false teacher would me a person whose teachings will bring a soul into DAMNATION. I'll use the tribulation issue again. I've heard it said more than once that anyone who teaches the ___tribulation rapture is a false teacher. (I'll allow you to supply pre-, post-, or mid- as you see fit because I've heard each.) As if when I THINK God is going to rapture has any affect on my salvation!!

 

[SpiritPsalmist]

Originally posted by Outspoken
"Does this also mean that because I believe some of your teachings to be false that I can call you a false teacher?"

Prove them biblically, in context, yup.
Of course you're allowed to call people on false teachings, what do you think Paul did when confronted with them.

Outspoken,

You appear to be avoiding the direct question. . .not very outspoken of you . . . And, according to your standard I have proven some of your teaching to be wrong.  But you don't accept it.  I've used the dictionary and you said the dictionary definition was wrong.  I used Strongs Concordance and you said the concordance was wrong.  You have not been willing to accept the proof I have given.

MY QUESTION: Does this also mean that because I believe some of your teachings to be false that, on this forum, we who dissagree with you can call you a false teacher?  That no moderator is going to bleep it out or close the thread if we do????


From my understanding of the forum rules there are to be NO personal attacks on people and/or ministries.  But that is not the way it seems to happen. 


It's a very simple question.  Please answer.

Thankyou,

Quaffer

 

[Outspoken]

"And, according to your standard I have proven some of your teaching to be wrong. "

No, I've explained all the views you object to and they are clearly backed up by scripture. Someone who steals from people can't say that can they?

"Does this also mean that because I believe some of your teachings to be false that, on this forum, we who dissagree with you can call you a false teacher? "

If you can CLEARLY prove it in scripture without refute, yes.

 

[SpiritPsalmist]

Originally posted by Outspoken
"And, according to your standard I have proven some of your teaching to be wrong. "

No, I've explained all the views you object to and they are clearly backed up by scripture. Someone who steals from people can't say that can they?

"Does this also mean that because I believe some of your teachings to be false that, on this forum, we who dissagree with you can call you a false teacher? "

If you can CLEARLY prove it in scripture without refute, yes.

CLEARLY?  According to who? You, me, him, her, them, ????? And anyone can refute, all they have to do is deny it, the way you do.    Like when I showed you the Strong's Concordance and you said the concordance was wrong. 

Forum Rule #1) You will not post any messages that harrass, insult, belittle, threaten or flame another member or guest. You may discuss another member's beliefs but there will be no personal attacks on the member himself or herself.

Saying "you are a false teacher", is breaking this rule. 

Forum Rule #2) You will not post any topic that disrupts the peace and harmony of this forum. This will include any new user with less than 50 posts starting a "discretionable" topic - i.e. a topic not suitable for children. This will also include posts that put down Christianity in general or any posts considered as blasphemy by staff (this is a CHRISTIAN FORUMS site), or posts that put down another Christian group or denomination. This includes links to websites in profiles and signatures.

Saying "WOF people are false teachers", "Baptists are false teachers", Penticostals are false teachers", *****  **** (*is mine) is a fraud, cheat, lier, etc, etc, is breaking this rule.

Quaffer

 

[Outspoken]

"CLEARLY? According to who?"

Scripture, who else? If you say no faithful christian gets sick, I'd say that's a false teaching because there are some in the bible that got sick. If I said you MUST be bapisted to go to heaven, you should say thats a false teaching and quote about the thief and other passages in the bible that say otherwise.

"Saying "you are a false teacher", is breaking this rule. "

No, its not breaking the rules because I adress the teachings, not the person. Just for your knowledge, a put-down is NOT documented evidience that false teaching or actions have occured. If the baptist denomination as a whole said stealing is okay according to the bible, you better beleive I'd call that a false teaching.

""WOF people are false teachers", "

this is the ONLY group that is 1. a movement 2. has teachings that DO NOT IN ANY WAY line up with scripture.

 

[SpiritPsalmist]

Originally posted by Outspoken
"CLEARLY? According to who?"

Scripture, who else? If you say no faithful christian gets sick, I'd say that's a false teaching because there are some in the bible that got sick. If I said you MUST be bapisted to go to heaven, you should say thats a false teaching and quote about the thief and other passages in the bible that say otherwise.

"Saying "you are a false teacher", is breaking this rule. "

No, its not breaking the rules because I adress the teachings, not the person. Just for your knowledge, a put-down is NOT documented evidience that false teaching or actions have occured. If the baptist denomination as a whole said stealing is okay according to the bible, you better beleive I'd call that a false teaching.

""WOF people are false teachers", "

this is the ONLY group that is 1. a movement 2. has teachings that DO NOT IN ANY WAY line up with scripture.

So even on the forum rules we can not have an agreement? 

I have not once quoted a WOF teacher, yet many times you have called me a false teacher.  According to your own thinking you have proven me wrong, but according to my thinking you have not.  I believe I have more than adequately supplied scriptures, in their context, along with dictionary definitions and Strong's Concordance but you say that you believe that I have not.

We are both believing that we are relying totally on the scriptures.  Who, is the one (not counting God) who decides that you are believing and trusting in God better than I am?  

Quaffer

 

[Outspoken]

"So even on the forum rules we can not have an agreement?"

you're stretching them, that's why.

"I have not once quoted a WOF teacher, yet many times you have called me a false teacher."

Based on the things you said. and I believe I called your teachings false.

No, the idea that God heals ALL things or that he ALWAYS gives to christian who are faithful is NOT supported biblically.

 

[SpiritPsalmist]

Originally posted by Outspoken
"So even on the forum rules we can not have an agreement?"

you're stretching them, that's why.

"I have not once quoted a WOF teacher, yet many times you have called me a false teacher."

Based on the things you said. and I believe I called your teachings false.

No, the idea that God heals ALL things or that he ALWAYS gives to christian who are faithful is NOT supported biblically.

Do we have any other mod's who could clarify the rules please? 

 

[Outspoken]

"Do we have any other mod's who could clarify the rules please? "

HUH? Go to the help section and ask a mod there or PM.

 

[Andrew]

quaffer,

I think what Outspoken is trying to say is that it's okay to call him a false teacher too and his teachings false (but we shall not descend to that level *L) -- becos he himself doesnt want to give up the 'right' to call us false teachers with false teachings, neither does he want to give up the ministry of condemnation -- calling WOFers, Pentecostals, baptists etc false teachers with false teachings etc.

IOW only he is right, only he has true scripture revelation and the true interpretation of forum rules. even Strongs and the dictionary are wrong and he is right.

this is all so amusing.

ok I'll PM Erwin to see just what the rules are. And what's considered blasphemy.

 

[Outspoken]

"IOW only he is right,"

/me hands andrew the words he unkindly stuffed into my mouth back to him.

WOF leaders I have heard and studied are false teachers based on their own words.

 

[Andrew]

outspoken said :

""WOF people are false teachers", "
this is the ONLY group that is 1. a movement 2. has teachings that DO NOT IN ANY WAY line up with scripture.

WOF leaders I have heard and studied are false teachers based on their own words.

so it is based on YOUR study and analysis that you have come to the conclusion the WOF like me, Quaffer are false teachers with false doctrines.

Well, lets see what Erwin says abt this when he comes back on the 13th of Jan.

So by your reasoning, if based on my own study and analysis, I come to the conclusion that the Catholics here are wrong, I can call their denom and priests false teachers with false doctrines? hhmmm .. I didnt know that was allowed in this forum.

You dont seem to "attack" them the way you attack WOFers. I take it you are in full agreement with their doctrines? or is it just pure bias and double standards?

 

[Blindfaith]

I want to pop in here quickly and remind everyone what the topic of this thread is about:

Voicing Valid Concerns  vs  Verbal Bashing.

Over the past 2 pages I'm seeing a lot of Verbal Bashing.  Please everyone, let's practice what we preach

Thanks!!

BF