Viruses that prove common descent

sfs · May 10, 2017

Speedwell said:
What he means is, that if he voiced his true opinion about non-YEC Christians, the forum moderators would get on his case.

Exactly. He's not saying that we're not Christians -- he's just saying that the forum rules against saying we're not Christians prevent him from saying whether he thinks we're Christians.

yeshuaslavejeff · May 10, 2017

sfs said:
Exactly. He's not saying that we're not Christians -- he's just saying that the forum rules against saying we're not Christians prevent him from saying whether he thinks we're Christians.

Not really.

For years I once thought that witchcraft was or could be "Christian".

Obviously it cannot be, but I was completely deceived for some years regarding that, and I was still Christian in every sense of any definition here,
and also whole-heartedly after YHWH like King David was ,
so
temporary blindness , or worse, can and does occur, even to those who truthfully and whole-heartedly seek YHWH and YHWH'S KINGDOM> i.e. even to Christians.

Speedwell · May 10, 2017

yeshuaslavejeff said:
Not really.

For years I once thought that witchcraft was or could be "Christian".

Obviously it cannot be, but I was completely deceived for some years regarding that, and I was still Christian in every sense of any definition here,
and also whole-heartedly after YHWH like King David was ,
so
temporary blindness , or worse, can and does occur, even to those who truthfully and whole-heartedly seek YHWH and YHWH'S KINGDOM> i.e. even to Christians.

What if it's not temporary? My interpretation of scripture is different than yours (and therefore wrong and evil in your eyes, of course) but it is almost 2000 years old and shared by the majority of the world's (self-identifying) Christians. We're not going to give it up on your say-so.

Barry Desborough · May 10, 2017

xianghua said:
what is your best evidence from that article that those ervs are the product of viral insertion?

Veritas: ERV FAQ: Why do virologists and geneticists think that ERVs come from retroviruses? Isn't that just supposition on their part?

Barry Desborough · May 10, 2017

Justatruthseeker said:
That's a totally false belief. Those viruses develop specific strategies for envading cells. If they had to develop a new strategy every time because they were unable to target specific cells, they would die out. I know you like to believe falsely that their envasion is random, but the fact they are indeed located in the same locale in both species shows your belief has no merit. You even admit these retrovirus are found in corresponding locals, then utter the falsehood they don't target the same locals. They target those exact locals because they have developed invasion strategies for those cells and mechanisms for defenses against the cells at those specific locals.

HIV in fact targets only white blood cells. It does not target any other cell within the body for reproduction. This well known selective targeting falsifies your belief they do not target specific types of cells that perform specific functions in specific locals. Also HTLV-I and II target lymph cells only.

They understand this fact well in designing gene therapies where a key consideration in retro viral vector design is the source of the viral envelope protein on vector virons, because this protein binds to specific cell-surface proteins and is the primary determination of the range of cells that can be tranduced by the vector. Only specific cells existing in specific locations that have specific functions can be targeted. Your beliefs are outdated and do not coincide with modern genetic knowledge on the subject.

See Veritas: ERV FAQ: Don't retroviruses target particular locations in the DNA? Doesn't this explain corresponding ERVs?

Barry Desborough · May 10, 2017

ImAllLikeOkWaitWhat said:
Barry what do you exactly think this means, in regards to theism. If it doesn't matter then why did you even post this thread.

The truth is very important. Particularly how human beings came about. Imagine you are a zoo-keeper charged with managing a species. You need to understand that species in order to make the best decisions for its welfare. Part of that understanding necessitates understanding its evolution.

Barry Desborough · May 10, 2017

yeshuaslavejeff said:
I go by what YHWH Reveals.

He has revealed that man's wisdom and man's knowledge is not only false, it is leading men to worship the creation in stead of the CREATOR.

The evidence when the TRUTH is known and explained,
in line with YHWH'S WORD and PLAN and PURPOSE,
is all against you, not for you.

Perhaps on the web someone can provide a webpage showing this more clearly.

Not here.

You seem to be confused between what "YHWH" "reveals", and what people claim he reveals. All you've got is the claims of people like you and me. Me, I prefer to go with solid facts and reasoning. As I said, if you think you have any reasonable doubt, I'd be glad to hear it.

yeshuaslavejeff · May 10, 2017

Barry Desborough said:
You seem to be confused between what "YHWH" "reveals", and what people claim he reveals. All you've got is the claims of people like you and me. Me, I prefer to go with solid facts and reasoning. As I said, if you think you have any reasonable doubt, I'd be glad to hear it.

You have already rejected God's Word. (apparently, clearly, for a long long time too; so I do not ever expect nor even hope to change your mind)

I have no doubt at all about YHWH'S WORD. He does not put doubt in our minds - man and science and society does that :
for short example just posted elsewhere: (note "society"/ "world opinion" below)
(as in Galatians key word describing society "pernicious"/ death dealing, corrupt thoroughly)

Matthew 10:5-42The Message (MSG)

5-8 Jesus sent his twelve harvest hands out with this charge:

“Don’t begin by traveling to some far-off place to convert unbelievers. And don’t try to be dramatic by tackling some public enemy. Go to the lost, confused people right here in the neighborhood. Tell them that the kingdom is here. Bring health to the sick. Raise the dead. Touch the untouchables. Kick out the demons. You have been treated generously, so live generously.

9-10 “Don’t think you have to put on a fund-raising campaign before you start. You don’t need a lot of equipment. You are the equipment, and all you need to keep that going is three meals a day. Travel light.

11 “When you enter a town or village, don’t insist on staying in a luxury inn. Get a modest place with some modest people, and be content there until you leave.

12-15 “When you knock on a door, be courteous in your greeting. If they welcome you, be gentle in your conversation. If they don’t welcome you, quietly withdraw. Don’t make a scene. Shrug your shoulders and be on your way. You can be sure that on Judgment Day they’ll be mighty sorry—but it’s no concern of yours now.

16 “Stay alert. This is hazardous work I’m assigning you. You’re going to be like sheep running through a wolf pack, so don’t call attention to yourselves. Be as cunning as a snake, inoffensive as a dove.

17-20 “Don’t be naive. Some people will impugn your motives, others will smear your reputation—just because you believe in me. Don’t be upset when they haul you before the civil authorities. Without knowing it, they’ve done you—and me—a favor, given you a platform for preaching the kingdom news! And don’t worry about what you’ll say or how you’ll say it. The right words will be there; the Spirit of your Father will supply the words.

21-23 “When people realize it is the living God you are presenting and not some idol that makes them feel good, they are going to turn on you, even people in your own family. There is a great irony here: proclaiming so much love, experiencing so much hate! But don’t quit. Don’t cave in. It is all well worth it in the end. It is not success you are after in such times but survival. Be survivors! Before you’ve run out of options, the Son of Man will have arrived.

24-25 “A student doesn’t get a better desk than her teacher. A laborer doesn’t make more money than his boss. Be content—pleased, even—when you, my students, my harvest hands, get the same treatment I get. If they call me, the Master, ‘Dungface,’ what can the workers expect?

26-27 “Don’t be intimidated. Eventually everything is going to be out in the open, and everyone will know how things really are. So don’t hesitate to go public now.

28 “Don’t be bluffed into silence by the threats of bullies. There’s nothing they can do to your soul, your core being. Save your fear for God, who holds your entire life—body and soul—in his hands.
Forget About Yourself

29-31 “What’s the price of a pet canary? Some loose change, right? And God cares what happens to it even more than you do. He pays even greater attention to you, down to the last detail—even numbering the hairs on your head! So don’t be intimidated by all this bully talk. You’re worth more than a million canaries.

32-33 “Stand up for me against world opinion and I’ll stand up for you before my Father in heaven. If you turn tail and run, do you think I’ll cover for you?

34-37 “Don’t think I’ve come to make life cozy. I’ve come to cut—make a sharp knife-cut between son and father, daughter and mother, bride and mother-in-law—cut through these cozy domestic arrangements and free you for God. Well-meaning family members can be your worst enemies. If you prefer father or mother over me, you don’t deserve me. If you prefer son or daughter over me, you don’t deserve me.

38-39 “If you don’t go all the way with me, through thick and thin, you don’t deserve me. If your first concern is to look after yourself, you’ll never find yourself. But if you forget about yourself and look to me, you’ll find both yourself and me.

40-42 “We are intimately linked in this harvest work. Anyone who accepts what you do, accepts me, the One who sent you. Anyone who accepts what I do accepts my Father, who sent me. Accepting a messenger of God is as good as being God’s messenger. Accepting someone’s help is as good as giving someone help. This is a large work I’ve called you into, but don’t be overwhelmed by it. It’s best to start small. Give a cool cup of water to someone who is thirsty, for instance. The smallest act of giving or receiving makes you a true apprentice. You won’t lose out on a thing.”
The Message (MSG)

Copyright © 1993, 1994, 1995, 1996, 2000, 2001, 2002 by Eugene H. Peterson

Barry Desborough · May 10, 2017

yeshuaslavejeff said:
You have already rejected God's Word. (apparently, clearly, for a long long time too; so I do not ever expect nor even hope to change your mind)

I have no doubt at all about YHWH'S WORD. He does not put doubt in our minds - man and science and society does that :
for short example just posted elsewhere: (note "society"/ "world opinion" below)
(as in Galatians key word describing society "pernicious"/ death dealing, corrupt thoroughly)

Matthew 10:5-42The Message (MSG)

5-8 Jesus sent his twelve harvest hands out with this charge:

“Don’t begin by traveling to some far-off place to convert unbelievers. And don’t try to be dramatic by tackling some public enemy. Go to the lost, confused people right here in the neighborhood. Tell them that the kingdom is here. Bring health to the sick. Raise the dead. Touch the untouchables. Kick out the demons. You have been treated generously, so live generously.

9-10 “Don’t think you have to put on a fund-raising campaign before you start. You don’t need a lot of equipment. You are the equipment, and all you need to keep that going is three meals a day. Travel light.

11 “When you enter a town or village, don’t insist on staying in a luxury inn. Get a modest place with some modest people, and be content there until you leave.

12-15 “When you knock on a door, be courteous in your greeting. If they welcome you, be gentle in your conversation. If they don’t welcome you, quietly withdraw. Don’t make a scene. Shrug your shoulders and be on your way. You can be sure that on Judgment Day they’ll be mighty sorry—but it’s no concern of yours now.

16 “Stay alert. This is hazardous work I’m assigning you. You’re going to be like sheep running through a wolf pack, so don’t call attention to yourselves. Be as cunning as a snake, inoffensive as a dove.

17-20 “Don’t be naive. Some people will impugn your motives, others will smear your reputation—just because you believe in me. Don’t be upset when they haul you before the civil authorities. Without knowing it, they’ve done you—and me—a favor, given you a platform for preaching the kingdom news! And don’t worry about what you’ll say or how you’ll say it. The right words will be there; the Spirit of your Father will supply the words.

21-23 “When people realize it is the living God you are presenting and not some idol that makes them feel good, they are going to turn on you, even people in your own family. There is a great irony here: proclaiming so much love, experiencing so much hate! But don’t quit. Don’t cave in. It is all well worth it in the end. It is not success you are after in such times but survival. Be survivors! Before you’ve run out of options, the Son of Man will have arrived.

24-25 “A student doesn’t get a better desk than her teacher. A laborer doesn’t make more money than his boss. Be content—pleased, even—when you, my students, my harvest hands, get the same treatment I get. If they call me, the Master, ‘Dungface,’ what can the workers expect?

26-27 “Don’t be intimidated. Eventually everything is going to be out in the open, and everyone will know how things really are. So don’t hesitate to go public now.

28 “Don’t be bluffed into silence by the threats of bullies. There’s nothing they can do to your soul, your core being. Save your fear for God, who holds your entire life—body and soul—in his hands.
Forget About Yourself

29-31 “What’s the price of a pet canary? Some loose change, right? And God cares what happens to it even more than you do. He pays even greater attention to you, down to the last detail—even numbering the hairs on your head! So don’t be intimidated by all this bully talk. You’re worth more than a million canaries.

32-33 “Stand up for me against world opinion and I’ll stand up for you before my Father in heaven. If you turn tail and run, do you think I’ll cover for you?

34-37 “Don’t think I’ve come to make life cozy. I’ve come to cut—make a sharp knife-cut between son and father, daughter and mother, bride and mother-in-law—cut through these cozy domestic arrangements and free you for God. Well-meaning family members can be your worst enemies. If you prefer father or mother over me, you don’t deserve me. If you prefer son or daughter over me, you don’t deserve me.

38-39 “If you don’t go all the way with me, through thick and thin, you don’t deserve me. If your first concern is to look after yourself, you’ll never find yourself. But if you forget about yourself and look to me, you’ll find both yourself and me.

40-42 “We are intimately linked in this harvest work. Anyone who accepts what you do, accepts me, the One who sent you. Anyone who accepts what I do accepts my Father, who sent me. Accepting a messenger of God is as good as being God’s messenger. Accepting someone’s help is as good as giving someone help. This is a large work I’ve called you into, but don’t be overwhelmed by it. It’s best to start small. Give a cool cup of water to someone who is thirsty, for instance. The smallest act of giving or receiving makes you a true apprentice. You won’t lose out on a thing.”
The Message (MSG)

Copyright © 1993, 1994, 1995, 1996, 2000, 2001, 2002 by Eugene H. Peterson

What the screaming heck does all this drivel have to do with ERVs?

yeshuaslavejeff · May 10, 2017

Just for example, how bad (evil) this whole field and direction is:

"Biometric Security

If Americans continue to allow their government to violate their Fourth Amendment protection against unreasonable search and seizures and be humiliated with naked body scans and enhanced pat downs in order to travel, what else will they let the government do?

Homeland Security has a Global Biometric Plan and is considering replacing the naked body scanners with body scanners that scan and store biometric data

By Alessio Damato
[GFDL (GNU Free Documentation License v1.3 - GNU Project - Free Software Foundation)
or CC-BY-SA-3.0
(Creative Commons — Attribution-ShareAlike 3.0 Unported — CC BY-SA 3.0)],
via Wikimedia Commons

Providing Biometric data including a fingerprint scans, iris scans, DNA samples, etc. is an act of submission that is being required by government and private venues more and more.

Governments and large corporations are now introducing systems to identify individuals using biometric data as opposed to traditional card forms of identification.

To obtain a driver’s license, you must submit to a thumb scan. If you refuse, you will not be issued a license, your right to travel will be severely limited, and you will lack a common form of personal identification.

In California, a thumb scan is required to obtain a real estate/mortgage broker’s license or purchase ammunition."

Signs of the Last Days: Mark of the Beast | Jeremiah Project

Barry Desborough · May 10, 2017

yeshuaslavejeff said:
Just for example, how bad (evil) this whole field and direction is:

"Biometric Security

If Americans continue to allow their government to violate their Fourth Amendment protection against unreasonable search and seizures and be humiliated with naked body scans and enhanced pat downs in order to travel, what else will they let the government do?

Homeland Security has a Global Biometric Plan and is considering replacing the naked body scanners with body scanners that scan and store biometric data

By Alessio Damato
[GFDL (GNU Free Documentation License v1.3 - GNU Project - Free Software Foundation)
or CC-BY-SA-3.0
(Creative Commons — Attribution-ShareAlike 3.0 Unported — CC BY-SA 3.0)],
via Wikimedia Commons

Providing Biometric data including a fingerprint scans, iris scans, DNA samples, etc. is an act of submission that is being required by government and private venues more and more.

Governments and large corporations are now introducing systems to identify individuals using biometric data as opposed to traditional card forms of identification.

To obtain a driver’s license, you must submit to a thumb scan. If you refuse, you will not be issued a license, your right to travel will be severely limited, and you will lack a common form of personal identification.

In California, a thumb scan is required to obtain a real estate/mortgage broker’s license or purchase ammunition."

Signs of the Last Days: Mark of the Beast | Jeremiah Project

"I don't like it so it can't be true." I can understand that attitude from a three-year-old, but not from a supposedly mature adult.

TheBear · May 10, 2017

Barry Desborough said:
Hi guys,

Here's my FAQ on endogenous retroviruses (ERVs). They provide some of the best evidence for common descent. They show that you, me, and Charlie the chimp are cousins.

Now I'm a lifelong atheist (67 years), and I don't care whether you believe in God or not. What I do care about is the fact that evolution-denial is an impediment to our understanding of human nature. See the second link regarding this.

Questions/comments welcome.

Veritas: Endogenous Retroviruses - Frequently Asked Questions

Veritas: ERV FAQ: Aren't you just a plagiarist? Why don't you attribute your sources? And who are you anyway?

Genetics and DNA science is just fine with people when the science is used to track down a murderer. But when that same science shows common decent, well, then that whole field of study is evil.

Cognitive dissonance for the win!!!!

Barry Desborough · May 11, 2017

TheBear said:
Genetics and DNA science is just fine with people when the science is used to track down a murderer. But when that same science shows common decent, well, then that whole field of study is evil.

Cognitive dissonance for the win!!!!

Exactly.

dad · May 11, 2017

Barry Desborough said:
Hi guys,

Here's my FAQ on endogenous retroviruses (ERVs). They provide some of the best evidence for common descent. They show that you, me, and Charlie the chimp are cousins.

Now I'm a lifelong atheist (67 years), and I don't care whether you believe in God or not. What I do care about is the fact that evolution-denial is an impediment to our understanding of human nature. See the second link regarding this.

Questions/comments welcome.

Veritas: Endogenous Retroviruses - Frequently Asked Questions

Veritas: ERV FAQ: Aren't you just a plagiarist? Why don't you attribute your sources? And who are you anyway?

You know how transfer happens today? Yes. Maybe you do.

If viri or the predecessor to them got around species another way, the common decent could not be inferred. The only question then, is how did viri used to transfer..or get around? The answer is you don't know.

dad · May 11, 2017

TheBear said:
Genetics and DNA science is just fine with people when the science is used to track down a murderer. But when that same science shows common decent, well, then that whole field of study is evil.

Cognitive dissonance for the win!!!!

Don't mix apples with oranges. Modern genetics...we know about. Very ancient genetics we do not know about.

yeshuaslavejeff · May 11, 2017

Barry Desborough said:
"I don't like it so it can't be true." I can understand that attitude from a three-year-old, but not from a supposedly mature adult.

Yes, from a three year old, good !

Spiritual Lessons From a Three-Year-Old – City Life Church
"Spiritual Lessons From a Three-Year-Old

Posted on January 15, 2012 by JD Hornbacher

Today, my 3-yr-old Zoe woke up sobbing. As I wiped away the tears and asked her what was wrong.

“I want Jesus to come back to life! I just love Him so much!”

“Babe, Jesus DID come back to life, and He loves you too. Zoe, do you want to ask Jesus into your heart? Do you really want to know him?”

“Yes, daddy. I do.”

This is the conversation every God-fearing parent hopes to have with their child. But can I be honest? Sometimes I wonder if my child is genuinely seeking to understand, if when she says she “loves Jesus” she really means it, because maybe we’ve just “trained” her to say those things.

Is it really HER who believes it? Can a 3-yr-old “get it”?

Paul, one of the New Testament writers, seemed to think so. In his second letter written to his “son” Timothy, he reminds him that “from childhood you have been acquainted with the sacred writings, which are able to make you wise for salvation through faith in Christ Jesus.” (2 Timothy 3:14-15)

You know what this tells me? God doesn’t put an age limit on personal revelation. He’s not deterred if you’re a person who hits your sibling or can’t say the word “yellow” or throws temper tantrums in Safeway or hasn’t quite mastered wiping your bum. God doesn’t care about that stuff. He’s simply looking for an open and pliable heart.

At bedtime Zoe and I prayed, thanking Jesus and asking for the Holy Spirit in her life. When we finished, I asked her,

“Zoe, do you feel any different?”

She looked down and patted her chest.

“My heart is talking.”

“What’s it saying?”

“’I love you, Zoe’.”

That was the moment I knew it was real for her. An answer as innocent and honest as that can only be a genuine response to the very real voice of God speaking to her heart.

So today, this is my prayer for every one of us: That we would quiet ourselves and realize our hearts are talking.

God is speaking to every one of us, regardless of our age or our past or our current life circumstances. And it’s not supposed to be complicated. Jesus told us in Matthew 18:3 that “unless you turn and become like children, you will never enter the kingdom of heaven.”

If a 3-yr-old can hear the voice of Almighty God speak directly to her heart, so can we. Jesus just wants us to keep it simple with “childlike faith”. "

=============================================
Matthew 11:25 ►
Verse (Click for Chapter)
New International Version
At that time Jesus said, "I praise you, Father, Lord of heaven and earth, because you have hidden these things from the wise and learned, and revealed them to little children.

==============================================
Study Bible
Rest for the Weary
24But I tell you that it will be more bearable for Sodom on the day of judgment than for you.” 25At that time Jesus declared, “I praise You, Father, Lord of heaven and earth, because You have hidden these things from the wise and learned, and revealed them to little children. 26Yes, Father, for this was well-pleasing in Your sight.…
Berean Study Bible · Download

Larniavc · May 11, 2017

yeshuaslavejeff said:
You know this is false science, right ?

So your only response is

"LIES! He's a LIAR! He LIIIIIIEEEEESSSSS!"?

yeshuaslavejeff · May 11, 2017

Larnievc said:
So your only response is

"LIES! He's a LIAR! He LIIIIIIEEEEESSSSS!"?

Some beliefs are very strange, and may be worse off perhaps for it,
but
no, I think many problably believe what is posted....
the world science teaches what is false, as if it is truth,

just as YHWH says in Scripture,
and who can resist it ? 'Educated' men must go along with it, in order to maintain such a system... while YHWH permits it to go on.

Jimmy D · May 11, 2017

yeshuaslavejeff said:
Some beliefs are very strange, and may be worse off perhaps for it,
but
no, I think many problably believe what is posted....
the world science teaches what is false, as if it is truth,

just as YHWH says in Scripture,
and who can resist it ? 'Educated' men must go along with it, in order to maintain such a system... while YHWH permits it to go on.

This is a thread about ERVs, no one is interested in your preaching.

Barry Desborough · May 11, 2017

dad said:
You know how transfer happens today? Yes. Maybe you do.

If viri or the predecessor to them got around species another way, the common decent could not be inferred. The only question then, is how did viri used to transfer..or get around? The answer is you don't know.

We certainly do know. This isn't hard. Retroviruses integrate DNA copies of their genomes in the genomes of host somatic cells. That's one way in which they "get around". The other way is when they integrate with germline cells and get reproduced along with the host DNA. The former process does not result in integrations to specific DNA loci. The latter one does, because this is how inheritance works. Read through the FAQ first, then let me know if there is anything you still don't understand.

Viruses that prove common descent

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