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Virginia Tech and Calvinism
- Thread starter Boxmaker
- Start date
[FONT="]This comment by GodsElect is exactly where my question comes from.
After the shootings at Virginia Tech, how many of you either individually or corporately during worship, ever offered God praise and worship for His as yet unrevealed glory that will come from the Virginia Tech shootings? If not, why not? The question is much broader and GrinningDwarf alludes to it. According to your theology, ALL things are for Gods ultimate glory.[/FONT]
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I and my family absolutely did. Our Pastor did during corporate prayer.Even my children know to do that. You evidently haven't been around reformed folks much.
Shoot! I was expecting something a tad more challenging than that, Box.
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heymikey80
Quidquid Latine dictum sit, altum viditur
It depends whether it abusively presumes something about God that a Calvinist doesn't presume. If it makes presumptions, no, don't. Or send it privately and one of us will review it and tell you.
If it includes or assumes any of the following attacks (now nearly 400 years old), save it. We've heard it before:
that the teaching of the Reformed churches on predestination and on the points associated with it by its very nature and tendency draws the minds of people away from all godliness and religion, is an opiate of the flesh and the devil, and is a stronghold of Satan where he lies in wait for all people, wounds most of them, and fatally pierces many of them with the arrows of both despair and self-assurance;that makes God the author of sin, unjust, a tyrant, and a hypocrite; and is nothing but a refurbished Stoicism, Manicheism, Libertinism, and Mohammedanism;
that makes people carnally self-assured, since it persuades them that nothing endangers the salvation of the chosen, no matter how they live, so that they may commit the most outrageous crimes with self-assurance; and that on the other hand nothing is of use to the reprobate for salvation even if they have truly performed all the works of the saints;
that God predestined and created, by the bare and unqualified choice of his will, without the least regard or consideration of any sin, the greatest part of the world to eternal condemnation; that in the same manner in which election is the source and cause of faith and good works, reprobation is the cause of unbelief and ungodliness; that many infant children of believers are snatched in their innocence from their mothers' breasts and cruelly cast into hell so that neither the blood of Christ nor their baptism nor the prayers of the church at their baptism can be of any use to them; and very many other slanderous accusations of this kind the Reformed churches not only disavow but even denounce with their whole heart.
that makes people carnally self-assured, since it persuades them that nothing endangers the salvation of the chosen, no matter how they live, so that they may commit the most outrageous crimes with self-assurance; and that on the other hand nothing is of use to the reprobate for salvation even if they have truly performed all the works of the saints;
that God predestined and created, by the bare and unqualified choice of his will, without the least regard or consideration of any sin, the greatest part of the world to eternal condemnation; that in the same manner in which election is the source and cause of faith and good works, reprobation is the cause of unbelief and ungodliness; that many infant children of believers are snatched in their innocence from their mothers' breasts and cruelly cast into hell so that neither the blood of Christ nor their baptism nor the prayers of the church at their baptism can be of any use to them; and very many other slanderous accusations of this kind the Reformed churches not only disavow but even denounce with their whole heart.
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It was not that challenging, it was just a question of how close you hold your beliefes. I wanted to warn a bit about how nasty the question would sound so that people would (hopefully) understand I was not trying to be cruel.
Even my children know to do that. You evidently haven't been around reformed folks much.
Shoot! I was expecting something a tad more challenging than that, Box.
Could you do so if that tragedy hit closer to home?
My wife went through breast cancer. It was a long 4.5 years and we are now struggling to put our lives back together. All the rules have changed but she is here to work things out. We are both thankful that God was with us through the whole ordeal. When things were at there worst, I had to give some thought to what would happen if my bride died. Would I have been able to offer praise to God for that? The answer was no. The best I could say was I do not understand why Nori had to die. The best I can do is to keep trusting in God and teach my daughters that bad things happen to good people. It is not God punishing us, it is just life. And through it all, God is there. If we are willing to trust in Him, He will work things for our good. In His time, not ours.
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heymikey80
Quidquid Latine dictum sit, altum viditur
Of course I can and do so. Both my wife's parents died of cancer.
I have a relative whose gone through exactly your proposed situation, too. And I can say with a straight face, our love for Christ shows us their tragedy was one reason why we went through the death of my wife's parents.
If you want more ... well of course there's more. When I left high school for college my family tore itself apart without telling me about it. I came home to a battlefield I never knew happened, and was already decided. I firmly believe going through that helped me in my personal ministry. It turned my life upside down -- and it gave me a radical new insights people just don't have without it.
And there are more. Some I'm flatly responsible for. But plenty hit me that I could never have predicted.
These things hurt like I was being ripped apart inside. Was I angry at God as well as my family? Of course. But pain and anger is not a reason to reject facts. Facts are true no matter the pain. It's certainly a reason to wish that things had been different.
Deep hurts are resolved in a closer life with God. Rejection of the truth can set us up for worse and worse anger and hatred, as each successive tragedy and adversity lands on us.
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heymikey80
Quidquid Latine dictum sit, altum viditur
Actually, I led the corporate prayer that Sunday morning. Not only that, I put it all together extemporaneously on the podium.
Don't think we don't pray for healing either, and restraint on evil, and we express the fact of the crime and punishment that will happen upon evil. This also is God's will.
And thanks for God working glory through tragedy is not a "Woo-hoo, God's glory, let's go celebrate the killing!" It's a "God will move in a way that both condemns evil people and redeems others of evil. And God will ultimately and finally condemn the one, and glorify the other."
The events of the day are going for God's glory.
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Like what Job did after a messenger told him that most of his family had been wiped out?
Job 1:
[18] While he was yet speaking, there came also another, and said, Thy sons and thy daughters were eating and drinking wine in their eldest brother's house:
[19] And, behold, there came a great wind from the wilderness, and smote the four corners of the house, and it fell upon the young men, and they are dead; and I only am escaped alone to tell thee.
[20] Then Job arose, and rent his mantle, and shaved his head, and fell down upon the ground, and worshipped,
[21] And said, Naked came I out of my mother's womb, and naked shall I return thither: the LORD gave, and the LORD hath taken away; blessed be the name of the LORD.
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It sounds more like you stated that you trust that God will work things out rather than actually praising God for an event that you do not yet understand.
Would it have been right to say something like, "God, we praise Your wisdom that these people were killed so that your glory will be revealed in due course." Or, "God, we don't understand your wonderful and mysterious ways, but we praise you for taking these people in a way that will ultimately prove your glory to all men."
Do you praise God in times of human tragedy for that tragedy? Not just state that God is in control and will work things out, do you actually offer praise for the tragedy itself? The tragedy was caused by God for Gods greater glory. You hold that as a core belief. There should be no grief in a Calvinist community. Consider, anything that happens, happens for God's glory. Death, disease, divorce as well as the birth of a baby, good health and marriage are all done by God for Gods glory. So whether it is death or birth, the emotion should be the same awe and reverence that God chose you and/or your family to play a roll in His glory.
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GrinningDwarf
Just a humble servant
Absolutely, we did! Even my non-Reformed pastor offered up such a prayer that Sunday. (I attend a non-denominational church.)
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That's an asinine statement if ever I heard one. We understand that all things redound to the glory of God, the scriptures plainly teach that, but we don't see the full story yet, and we experience the sorrows of loss that is common to all men, but with a distinct difference:
We don't presume to say we can view all of life from the perspective of eternity, but we know from scripture that our Redeemer does, and we take comfort in that. You saw what Job said, you've read of the sorrow of Jacob over the his perceived loss of Joseph, the sorrow of David over the death of Jonathan, the sorrows of old testament saints over the loss of spouses, family and friends, the sorrow of Lazurus' friends at his death in the NT, so you know that sorrow over loss is not wrong, just we are not as those who have no hope.
You have no idea what those of us here have endured in God's providence. I understand and have compassion for you and your wife over the trial you were chosen to endure, and I hope you have learned to praise God by it. I have seen the suffering and death of several people who were very dear to me, and it was very sorrowful each time, especially in the case of those whose salvation was not evident. But God is sovereign and all-wise, so through the sorrow I have understood that He was carrying out His will in holiness.
And we have this to look forward to:
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heymikey80
Quidquid Latine dictum sit, altum viditur
I'm sorry, what do you mean? Events are intended and organized by God for His glory -- so they are organized. Events don't exist in a vacuum.
If God's glory is not clear as a single event occurs, it's tautological that God's glory is not revealed by it. Is that what you mean?
Each event adds to God's greater glory in the context of creation history, and that's why they occur. But to say that in every particular, isolated way it's interpreted, an event must contribute to God's glory, that's just not true. In fact it's logically deductively invalid. Hence it makes no meaning of the words.
And I have no idea what you mean by "no grief". In God's infinite view all events bring glory to Him. Yet we are limited in our view, and in our view of His view, and in our empathy with the views of others -- (which by the way, God also has). So it's a very myopic view that concludes "no grief". Even adversity and death bring God the glory -- but they also bring tragedy in our limited views.
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Out of context how? If He made all His sons and daughters, who it would seem are the most favored (albeit without merit) among fallen humanity for His own glory, and Jesus is the "brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person" (Heb 1:3), how do you say humanity was not made for Jesus, not made for God's glory?
But read, O Boxmaker, what the Word of God says:
Read and believe, that you might by God's grace throw this filthy rag of the lie of human supremacy at the foot of the Cross. God the Father created the universe for the pleasure of God the Son, by the Son. It's overarching and supreme purpose is the glory of the triune God, to whom humanity is but dust in the balance, which is what makes it all the more amazing that in His plan to glorify Himself He chose to redeem some of that dust by the blood of His beloved Son, to show forth the glory of His mercy and love. Rather than believing in a false self-importance, we should be moved to meekness and humility and overwhelming gratitude.
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Go back and read the entire chapter of Isiah you referenced. It is not talking about God gathering people to Him, it is talking about the sons and daughters if Israel be gather back to Israel.
God created the universe and all that is in it, including Adam, for fellowship with God. Adam mucked it up for all of us. God set about to redeem His creation to Himself because it pleases Him to do so. God did not create us to be scum, He created us for fellowship with Him. God doesn't see us as worthless sinners to be cast into the lake of fire, God sees us as worthless sinners that He loves and wants to redeem to Himself. A truly humbling thought that God loves me in spite of who I am. Far more humbling that believing God love you (the Elect) and hates me (the non-elect). You can not honestly expect me to believe that you don't feel privileged that God loves you and hates me. The creator of all chose you above a great many others to be saved. Now thats privilege! Do you deny that you feel privileged?
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cygnusx1
Jacob the twister.....
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everyone who understands election feels privileged humility , there can be no boasting of any sort , not even over faith , God reserves a remnant amongst the Jews , and even the saved Gentiles are said to have found without even seeking God.
It is only a misunderstanding of Grace and Election that can make anyone think in terms of pride ...... God chose the garbage of this world to shame those who thought they were worthy!
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Read it many times, Box, and although we may disagree with the eschatological implications of the text, the verse quoted states a truth that stands regardless of those differences. God says unequivocably that He created those that are His for His own glory. That was the issue addressed, not your argument for open theism.
No, He created all for His glory. He's not some lonely old man wistfully designing little beings then hoping they'll fall in love with Him to cure His loneliness.
I guess that was one of those little things that your theology says God "didn't have to ordain", that was just left up to Adam, and God adjusted things as it went along, right?
Now there's a sensible statement. Our differences are over why He created His creation in the first place, and what is the motive behind His redeeming of it. I say He both created and is redeeming for the purpose of His glory. You claim He has done these things because He was lonely? And because He liked us so much?
Strange then that He will cast every human being that has not the covering of the blood of His Son
into that lake of fire. Guess even God "can't always get what He wants", huh?
Amen!
Huh? Well, if you are "non-elect", or what I would call reprobate, then regardless of the effect on your humility, God does hate you. His Word says:
And His people are to hate you:
I don't know if the word "priveleged" best describes the feeling such knowledge gives me. A better description would be overwhelming gratitude. The word privelege I would apply to the idea that the Creator of the universe would leave to me the ability to make or break His plan by my decision. Now that's a pretty powerful position to have!
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And His glory is revealed everywhere you look!
The Creator of the univers chose you, above a great many others, and you don't feel honored? You get to go to heaven while many others get to go to hell and you don't call that a privlage? God loves you more than He loves me and you don't think that you are special?bradfordl said:
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