Virginia Tech and Calvinism

[Boxmaker]

Who has done that? I certainly haven't.

Then:
Your open theology is an insult and an assault upon God's omniscience. You inhabit chaos. You stand upon theological incoherence. You personify confusion, of which God is not the author. Repent, you usurper, or fall with the other created beings who reject the sovereignty of almighty God. I hereby shake the dust off my sandals as a testimony against you.

How would you interpret bradfordl's statement?

 

[strengthinweakness]

Honestly, Boxmaker, I do think that bradfordl went too far in his reply there. Your way of conversing with Reformed Christians can be frustrating, at times, and some of your statements are indeed theologically contradictory, but from what I have seen, you seem, to me, to be a brother in Christ. A theologically inconsistent and confused brother-- as I myself definitely was, before God kindly humbled me of my man-centered ideas!-- but a brother in Christ nonetheless. You are definitely wrong about Calvinism being hopeless though. Nothing makes me more hopeful than the truth of the absolute sovereignty of God over all things-- including our wills. It is only on that basis that we can pray, with any confidence, for non-Christians to be saved!

 

[heymikey80]

Man 1 - "One of the pillars of a Christian life is to believe that Christ died for all men"

Calvinist - "I don't believe that."

Man 2 - {Laughs}

Calvinist - "No. I'm serious. I don't believe that."

Pastor - {Sits in uncomfortable silence.}

My Pastor did not take a stand one way or the other, a fact that I am concerned about. He is more concerned about creating a group that can work together than he is about the theology of the group.

And as you've seen I'm also uncomfortable with that wording. I don't think Christ came for the salvation of everyone. I think Christ knew quite well God didn't intend to give everyone faith. If your statement in this post is true, you don't either: "God chooses who will recieve faith and who will not." Did Christ die for the salvation of those God didn't choose?

And here is an example o what seperates believers. You contend the Chrsit did not intend to save all men. I contend that Christ died knowing that not all men would be saved.

Right. You must conclude Christ is not in control of the primary thing He intends to do. Yet apparently God is, for "God chooses who will recieve faith and who will not."

Its a subtle, almost insignificant difference but it completely colors the way we look at the world of non believers. When I look at the world of non-believers I see the Gentiles who need to be reached with the truth. There is not one of them that I do not think can't be saved. Can you say the same?

Certainly. I can say exactly the same. Because it's true -- every Gentile everywhere needs to be reached with the truth. I carry the Spirit within me to everyone I come in contact with. And not one of them can't be saved. In fact the Spirit could save all of them.

But He said He will not save all. And if that's not God's will, exactly how do I say it is His will to die for all those He doesn't will to save?

Actually, there is no difference between our two views here. In either case, we believe that God is the only source of salvation. Whether God predestined only the elect or works in the hearts of all men, only those to whom God grants faith recieve His gift of salvation. We are chosen by God. Many are called but few are chosen. It is God's choice. But we must not forget that those who seek find.

"No one seeks God." Rom 3:9

As you pointed out, none of us seek God. But that doesn't mean we don't know that something is missing from our lives. When we hear the Gospel, God takes that ruth and convicts us. God chooses who will recieve faith and who will not.

Are you saying, people don't seek God, but they seek something, and God rewards that with faith? And yet God says He chooses, not based on the will of man (which would will to seek out something), nor on the actions of man (which would do the seeking), but on Himself, who has mercy. Rom 9:16

 

[heymikey80]

And that is a shinning example of the hopelessness of the gospel of Calvinism. If people don't agree with them, they conclude that they are no longer worth their time, hurl a few insults and walk away.

I am truely thankful that Jesus is more loving and patient than that.

I'm sorry, Boxmaker, but the problem is one where that Calvinist recognizes the inconsistency you're not attempting to see. Your concepts are not those of a Calvinist; yet you're "stating in my own words what I have learned from what they have been saying to me." That's a vast leap: that what you decide you learn is what Calvinism actually teaches. It's quite clear you don't have the concepts of Calvinism organized as Calvin has them -- and that makes what you learn quite different from what Calvinism teaches.

And I propose to stretch this even further, in a mind-bending sort of way. There are plenty of self-professed Calvinist who are simply Methodists or Baptists with Calvin's vocabulary. It's actually worthwhile you should ask these questions, because when others approach Calvin with certain concepts skewed, they risk much the same mistakes you're asking about. That's why I'm constantly asking what people actually say: representatives of Calvinism sometimes hold views Calvin himself would be aghast at. For instance, the idea of universal call is pervasive to Calvin's thought. Yet some things you're saying indicate some professed Calvinists don't believe in a universal call of the Gospel.

Yet it's clearly in Calvin's view, as well as among early Calvinists as well as Puritans and more. The effective call doesn't exclude the universal call.

 

[bradfordl]

This discussion began on December 29, 2006 on the thread "Why do Calvinists?", and has become so incredibly redundant it is pointless to carry on. One thing you have to say for Boxmaker is that he consistent in his error. His rejection of God's sovereignty over the will of man necessarily leads him to open theology, which by a minimal standard of proper exegesis of scripture is heterodoxy. Stubborn adherence to such nonsense in the face of so much admonition from scripture is madness. The fact is that there are two possible realities at work here. One is that Box is simply a vessel fitted for destruction, and is here to stumble the weaker of the brethren, or the other is that he is a vessel formed to show forth God's mercy but has yet to come to the place in time that God has ordained that he would come to the faith of the bible.

As the disciples travelled throughout Israel 2000 years ago, they were given instruction by the Lord Himself to remain with those who received the truth, but as for those who rejected it, to shake off the dust of their sandals as a testimony against them. My perception is that this was for the purpose of convicting those among the scoffers that were of the elect, that they would be brought to their senses. Those that were sons of destruction would be of no interest, and would be themselves uninterested. It is in that spirit of hope that I have followed in the tradition of my elder brothers in the Lord, and left the journey's clinging dregs behind.

May God have mercy.

 

[cygnusx1]

Amen Brad

now for a bit of closure ;

​

This is admittedly an unpleasant doctrine. It is not taught to gain favor with men, but only because it is the plain teaching of the Scriptures and the logical counterpart of the doctrine of Election. We shall find that some Scripture passages do teach the doctrine with unmistakable clearness. These should be sufficient for any one who accepts the Bible as the word of God. “Jehovah hath made everything for its own end; Yea, even the wicked for the day of evil,” Prov. 16:4. Christ is said to be to the wicked, “A stone of stumbling, and a rock of offence; for they stumble at the word, being disobedient; whereunto also they were appointed,” I Peter 2:8. “For there are certain men crept in privily, even they who were of old written of beforehand to this condemnation, ungodly men, turning the grace of our God into lasciviousness, and denying our only Master and Lord, Jesus Christ,” Jude 4. “But these, as creatures without reason, born mere animals to be taken and destroyed, railing in matters whereof they are ignorant, shall in their destroying surely be destroyed,” II Peter 2:12. “For God did put in their heart to do His mind, and to come to one mind, and to give their kingdom unto the beast, until the word of God should be accomplished,” Rev. 17:17. Concerning the beast of St. John’s vision it is said, “All that dwell on the earth shall worship him, every one whose name hath not been written from the foundation of the world in the book of life of the lamb that hath been slain,” Rev. 13:8; and we may contrast these with the disciples whom Jesus told to rejoice because their names were written in heaven (Luke 10:20), and with Paul’s fellow-workers, “whose names are in the book of life,” Phil. 4:3.
Paul declares that the “vessels of wrath” which by the Lord were “fitted unto destruction,” were “endured with much long suffering” in order that He might “show His wrath, and make His power known”; and with these are contrasted the “vessels of mercy, which He afore prepared unto glory” in order “that He might make known the riches of His glory” upon them (Rom. 9:22, 23). Concerning the heathen it is said that “God gave them up unto a reprobate mind, to do those things which are not fitting,” Rom. 1:28; and the wicked, “after his hardness and impenitent heart treasures up for himself wrath in the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God,” Rom. 2:5.
In regard to those who perish Paul says, “God sendeth them a working of error, that they should believe a lie,” II Thess. 2:11. They are called upon to behold these things in an external way, to wonder at them, and to go on perishing in their sins. Hear the words of Paul in the synagogue at Antioch in Pisidia: “Behold, ye despisers, and wonder, and perish; For I work a work in your days, A work which ye shall in no wise believe, if one declare it unto you,” Acts 13:41.
The apostle John, after narrating that the people still disbelieved although Jesus had done so many signs before them, adds, “For this cause they could not believe, for that Isaiah said again, He hath blinded their eyes, and He hardened their heart; Lest they should see with their eyes, and perceive with their heart, And should turn, And I should heal them,” John 12:39, 40.
Christ’s command to the wicked in the final judgment, “Depart from me, ye cursed, into the eternal fire which is prepared for the Devil and his angels,” Matt. 25:41, is the strongest possible decree of reprobation; and it is the same in principle whether issued in time or eternity. What is right for God to do in time it is not wrong for Him to include in His eternal plan.
On one occasion Jesus Himself declared: “For judgment came I into this world, that they that see not may see; and that they that see may become blind,” John 9:39. On another occasion He said, “I thank thee, O Father, Lord of heaven and earth, that thou didst hide these things from the wise and understanding, and didst reveal them unto babes,” Matt. 11:25. It is hard for us to realize that the adorable Redeemer and only Savior of men is, to some, a stone of stumbling and a rock of offence; yet that is what the Scriptures declare Him to be. Even before His birth it was said that He was set (that is, appointed) for the falling, as well as for the rising, of many in Israel (Luke 2:84). And when, in His intercessory prayer in the garden of Gethsemane, He said, “I pray for them; I pray not for the world, but for those whom thou hast given me,” the non-elect were repudiated in so many words.

http://www.the-highway.com/election3_Boettner.html#Proof%20from%20Scripture

 

[Boxmaker]

Thanks for the time. God be with you all.

 

[gmkimani]

God is good

 

[gmkimani]

The previous post was just a test, but just to say, God got the glory out of this tragic event because through it, some people who deserved His fury received it, and others who realized their need form Him got saved. To God be the glory