Virginia Tech and Calvinism

[xapis]

Yes God loved one and hated the other. I wonder about something. The greek in which the Bible was written has about 4 different words we translate as love, each of which conveys a different type of love. I wonder if hate is similar?

No.
http://cf.blueletterbible.org/search/preSearch.cfm?Criteria=3404&Version=kjv

The same word, μισέω, is used in Mal. 1:3 in the Septuagint.

Pauls use of the Potter and clay is in reference to Nations, not individuals.

Really? Who said? That seems to go completely against any contextual reading of chapter 9.

 

[bradfordl]

And they are still better than a great many other people because God chose Paul and Jacob. Unless God rolls dice to determine who gets into the book of life, the people there must be there for a reason. And the reason is: God loves them and hates everybody else. Since God loves them, they must be better than those whom God hates, at least in Gods view. Agree or disagree?

Then:

We are chosen by God. Many are called but few are chosen. It is God's choice.

 

[bradfordl]

Box says:

I have never denied the absolute sovergienty of God. I deny the Calvinistic definition of God's sovergienty.

Then:

The door was never open for the non-elect, they were never chosen. Thats Calvinism, there are the elect and the non-elect.

Then:

We are chosen by God. Many are called but few are chosen. It is God's choice. But we must not forget that those who seek find.

 

[bradfordl]

I remember way back in 1989 when I was an unconscious arminian, when it was all I'd ever heard, talking with a friend about what part we played in our salvation. We kept whittling it down to as small a part as we could, just an acknowledgement of the truth of the gospel... but the idea that we played no part in it, that it was entirely a work of God, was so foreign to us that it did not even enter our minds. We were too enamored of the idea that there was something worthwhile in us to warrant God's "grace", unable to see that it would then not be grace, to accept the teaching of scripture that there is nothing in us or done by us that will warrant anything but hell.

But God had mercy!

 

[UMP]

I remember way back in 1989 when I was an unconscious arminian, when it was all I'd ever heard, talking with a friend about what part we played in our salvation. We kept whittling it down to as small a part as we could, just an acknowledgement of the truth of the gospel... but the idea that we played no part in it, that it was entirely a work of God, was so foreign to us that it did not even enter our minds. We were too enamored of the idea that there was something worthwhile in us to warrant God's "grace", unable to see that it would then not be grace, to accept the teaching of scripture that there is nothing in us or done by us that will warrant anything but hell.

But God had mercy!

My experience was very similar. I kept hanging unto my choice. Every time I sinned and doubted my salvation, I would go back to "my choice". I chose God, I chose Christ. Not until God broke my heart and made me to see that even my choice was a "filthy rag" before Him, did I begin to see what a sinner I really was and how much I needed a savior, for I could not help myself in ANY way.
Thankfully, that's who Christ came to save !

Mark 2:
[17] When Jesus heard it, he saith unto them, They that are whole have no need of the physician, but they that are sick: I came not to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance.

 

[Boxmaker]

:

Box says:

I have never denied the absolute sovergienty of God. I deny the Calvinistic definition of God's sovergienty.

And I still do.

The door was never open for the non-elect, they were never chosen. Thats Calvinism, there are the elect and the non-elect.

I have not seen anything on this thread or any other that would lead me to believe Calvinism teaches anything different. R.C. Sproul definatly supports this view.

We are chosen by God. Many are called but few are chosen. It is God's choice. But we must not forget that those who seek find.

It is God's work in our life.
Ephesians 2:7-9 (New International Version)

7in order that in the coming ages he might show the incomparable riches of his grace, expressed in his kindness to us in Christ Jesus. 8For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— 9not by works, so that no one can boast.

 

[GrinningDwarf]

I remember way back in 1989 when I was an unconscious arminian, when it was all I'd ever heard, talking with a friend about what part we played in our salvation. We kept whittling it down to as small a part as we could, just an acknowledgement of the truth of the gospel... but the idea that we played no part in it, that it was entirely a work of God, was so foreign to us that it did not even enter our minds. We were too enamored of the idea that there was something worthwhile in us to warrant God's "grace", unable to see that it would then not be grace, to accept the teaching of scripture that there is nothing in us or done by us that will warrant anything but hell.

But God had mercy!

Pretty much the same thing here. No matter how bad stuff was going in my life, based upon choices I had made, I would always look to my Christianity and say to myself "At least I did that right." I never saw that as anything to really boast about...just doing what was required of me, but certainly not meriting any favor. It wasn't until Sproul starting getting through to me that I saw that saying "At least I did that right" was, in fact, boasting, and the only reason I had even "done that right" was because God had first changed my heart.

 

[bradfordl]

Quote:

The door was never open for the non-elect, they were never chosen. Thats Calvinism, there are the elect and the non-elect.

I have not seen anything on this thread or any other that would lead me to believe Calvinism teaches anything different. R.C. Sproul definatly supports this view.

Absolutely right! And so do you:

We are chosen by God. Many are called but few are chosen. It is God's choice. But we must not forget that those who seek find.

Except when you face the truth that there is no good thing in you, then you want to cling to this commendable thing you call a "decision" you think you made of your own free will. The hilarious thing is that you accuse calvinism of creating a tendency towards pride, of considering oneself "better" than the lost, when in fact it is your own soteriology that would engender pride; pride in an independent and "free" decision. We hold that God saves us not because of anything inherent in ourselves, or that He "saw" that we would do anything, but that He determined to save a certain number of humanity for the purpose of displaying His glory through mercy. We are of that number, predetermined before time began, by His sovereign decree, and not our own works - works like righteousness or a decision.

But you desire to withold for yourself a part to play in your redemption, a pivotal part. Which assigns you the final authority in salvation. And to keep your grasp on this authority you must hold to other errors; that God has not ordained every moment of all existence; that God would be unjust to find fault in those whom He had formed for the purpose of destruction; that God was as a man in time, your "open theology".

Do you not see how allowing your human way of thinking to cause you to err in one thing then extends to other error as a stone falling in a pond? A faulty foundation will set the whole house out of square and plumb. You are willing to swallow camels because you have strained at a gnat.

 

[cygnusx1]

I am a believer. God has shown me His mercy.

Could not a man with free will believe, notwithstanding Jesus said, “I work a work in your days, a work which ye shall in no wise believe, though a man declare it unto you”? (Acts 13:41)

 

[Boxmaker]

Absolutely right! And so do you:

I do not support the view as it is put forth by Calvinism in general and Sproul in particular. The Bible teaches us that no man is righteous but it also teaches that those who seek find. Calvinism holds that no man seeks until after God has given them faith. I think people are seeking something all the time. Our hearts are empty and we long to fill them. We try many different things but nothing works until we hear the Gospel. We hear God's truth and for the first time in our lives get an idea that there is something so much more fullilling than the garbage we value. God works that truth in our hearts and, by His grace, gives some faith. But God only does this in the willing heart. Its all God but some hearts are hard towards God. Either God hardens them or people harden them (Pharaoh did both). As Adam willing accepted the lies of Satan over God's command so to must we have a heart willing to accept God's command over Satan's lie.

Except when you face the truth that there is no good thing in you, then you want to cling to this commendable thing you call a "decision" you think you made of your own free will. The hilarious thing is that you accuse calvinism of creating a tendency towards pride, of considering oneself "better" than the lost, when in fact it is your own soteriology that would engender pride; pride in an independent and "free" decision. We hold that God saves us not because of anything inherent in ourselves, or that He "saw" that we would do anything, but that He determined to save a certain number of humanity for the purpose of displaying His glory through mercy. We are of that number, predetermined before time began, by His sovereign decree, and not our own works - works like righteousness or a decision.

But you desire to withold for yourself a part to play in your redemption, a pivotal part. Which assigns you the final authority in salvation. And to keep your grasp on this authority you must hold to other errors; that God has not ordained every moment of all existence; that God would be unjust to find fault in those whom He had formed for the purpose of destruction; that God was as a man in time, your "open theology".

Do you not see how allowing your human way of thinking to cause you to err in one thing then extends to other error as a stone falling in a pond? A faulty foundation will set the whole house out of square and plumb. You are willing to swallow camels because you have strained at a gnat.

I see no error. God is in control. He works all things according to His will. And he does so without having preordained whatsoever comes to pass. I utterly reject the Westminster statment of faith that claims God is responsible for everything except sin. It is a logical falicy and not consistant with the nature of God the Bible reveals.

God is not a puppet master that downloads a life into a body and lets it run without deviation. God is a Father who loves His children and wants them to return home to Him and rejoices when they do!

[BIBLE]Mathew 15:21"The son said to him, 'Father, I have sinned against heaven and against you. I am no longer worthy to be called your son. 22"But the father said to his servants, 'Quick! Bring the best robe and put it on him. Put a ring on his finger and sandals on his feet. 23Bring the fattened calf and kill it. Let's have a feast and celebrate. 24For this son of mine was dead and is alive again; he was lost and is found.' So they began to celebrate. [/BIBLE]

That parable was taught by Jesus to illistrate God's love for His creation. The story starts with the sons choice to leave. Here we see the sons realization of what he lost and his desire to return to that life. We also see God's joy at His lost son returning to Him.

We will continue to disagree here. You will contend that the whole episode was predestined. I will conend that God grants us free will and allows us to live or die by that will. In either case, it is God who is in control.

 

[Boxmaker]

Could not a man with free will believe, notwithstanding Jesus said, “I work a work in your days, a work which ye shall in no wise believe, though a man declare it unto you”? (Acts 13:41)

Believe in what? A man with free will can calim to believe in God and say all the right words and lead a life devoid of the fruits that would indicate he knows who Jesus truly is. You need look no further that preachers of prosperity gospel of George W. Bush for examples.

You cannot believe in God's truth until God has convicted you of that truth and granted you the faith to believe.

 

[bradfordl]

We are chosen by God. Many are called but few are chosen. It is God's choice. But we must not forget that those who seek find.

Then:

Its all God but some hearts are hard towards God. Either God hardens them or people harden them (Pharaoh did both). As Adam willing accepted the lies of Satan over God's command so to must we have a heart willing to accept God's command over Satan's lie.

You contradict yourself. Is it God's choice or ours? Your open theology is an insult and an assault upon God's omniscience. You inhabit chaos. You stand upon theological incoherence. You personify confusion, of which God is not the author. Repent, you usurper, or fall with the other created beings who reject the sovereignty of almighty God. I hereby shake the dust off my sandals as a testimony against you.

 

[Boxmaker]

Then:
You contradict yourself. Is it God's choice or ours? Your open theology is an insult and an assault upon God's omniscience. You inhabit chaos. You stand upon theological incoherence. You personify confusion, of which God is not the author. Repent, you usurper, or fall with the other created beings who reject the sovereignty of almighty God. I hereby shake the dust off my sandals as a testimony against you.

And that is a shinning example of the hopelessness of the gospel of Calvinism. If people don't agree with them, they conclude that they are no longer worth their time, hurl a few insults and walk away.

I am truely thankful that Jesus is more loving and patient than that.

 

[UMP]

And that is a shinning example of the hopelessness of the gospel of Calvinism. If people don't agree with them, they conclude that they are no longer worth their time, hurl a few insults and walk away.

I am truely thankful that Jesus is more loving and patient than that.

Bradford and MANY others have been EXTREMELY patient with you.

The words of Christ:

Matthew 10:
[14] And whosoever shall not receive you, nor hear your words, when ye depart out of that house or city, shake off the dust of your feet.

Mark 6:
[11] And whosoever shall not receive you, nor hear you, when ye depart thence, shake off the dust under your feet for a testimony against them. Verily I say unto you, It shall be more tolerable for Sodom and Gomorrha in the day of judgment, than for that city.

 

[edie19]

And that is a shinning example of the hopelessness of the gospel of Calvinism. If people don't agree with them, they conclude that they are no longer worth their time, hurl a few insults and walk away.

You ought to be ashamed saying that.

Bradford and others have been extremely patient with you since you started this thread back in April. They've explained countless times what Calvinism is (and isn't). They've given multiple examples where the doctrines of grace line up with Scripture. They've stressed time and time again the fact that the doctrines of grace humble man before God.

In response you tell them what they think, what they mean, imply over and over that they are wrong. They've responded to your statements with grace and patience - referring back to Scripture to support their doctrine.

You certainly don't have to agree with them or with the doctrines of grace - but don't call them insulting without first looking in the mirror (even the way you accuse them of throwing insults comes across as insulting - once again implying something about Calvinism - hopelessness - that isn't there).

 

[xapis]

How many months should we tolerate your insults on our beliefs before you'd deem us patient?

 

[Boxmaker]

How many months should we tolerate your insults on our beliefs before you'd deem us patient?

Hmm....

I know! For as many months as I am will to tolerate your insults and your assertions that I am not a Christian.

 

[Boxmaker]

Bradford and MANY others have been EXTREMELY patient with you.

The words of Christ:

Matthew 10:
[14] And whosoever shall not receive you, nor hear your words, when ye depart out of that house or city, shake off the dust of your feet.

Mark 6:
[11] And whosoever shall not receive you, nor hear you, when ye depart thence, shake off the dust under your feet for a testimony against them. Verily I say unto you, It shall be more tolerable for Sodom and Gomorrha in the day of judgment, than for that city.

Is that not a two way street? From my point of view, as inspired by the Holy Spirit in my life, you have not recieved me.

 

[xapis]

Hmm....

I know! For as many months as I am will to tolerate your insults and your assertions that I am not a Christian.

Who has done that? I certainly haven't.

 

[Boxmaker]

And that is a shinning example of the hopelessness of the gospel of Calvinism. If people don't agree with them, they conclude that they are no longer worth their time, hurl a few insults and walk away.

You ought to be ashamed saying that.

Bradford and others have been extremely patient with you since you started this thread back in April. They've explained countless times what Calvinism is (and isn't). They've given multiple examples where the doctrines of grace line up with Scripture. They've stressed time and time again the fact that the doctrines of grace humble man before God.

In response you tell them what they think, what they mean, imply over and over that they are wrong. They've responded to your statements with grace and patience - referring back to Scripture to support their doctrine.

You certainly don't have to agree with them or with the doctrines of grace - but don't call them insulting without first looking in the mirror (even the way you accuse them of throwing insults comes across as insulting - once again implying something about Calvinism - hopelessness - that isn't there).

Interesting. You are accusing me of telling Calvinist what they believe. That is actually not true. I have been stating in my own words what I have learned from what they have been saying to me. Think about that for a minute.

It is hard for me to interpret this: You contradict yourself. Is it God's choice or ours? Your open theology is an insult and an assault upon God's omniscience. You inhabit chaos. You stand upon theological incoherence. You personify confusion, of which God is not the author. Repent, you usurper, or fall with the other created beings who reject the sovereignty of almighty God. I hereby shake the dust off my sandals as a testimony against you. as anything other than somebody deciding that there is no hope for me and abaondoning me. I believe in Jesus as my savior. I serve Him in accordance with the gifts He gave me. Is there really so much difference between us that you would consider my un-saved or un-savable? Have I ever accused anybody on this thread of being un-saved?