venerating icons, statues, etc

[NoDoubt]

When people, especially Americans who usually know zilch about the world as a whole, come onto the 'net and say that 'we' don't worship icons/statues, they are fabricating, simply because they cannot know what goes on in the minds of the millions in poor countries. They can't even prove that they are telling the truth about themselves. There is a well-known photo of Mr Wojtyla on bended knee before a crowned statue of 'Mary' (who never looks anything like a Jewess in the 'Tradition' tradition). This sort of thing, and the experience of those who have taken the gospel to countries such as Chile, Portugal, Romania and Russia, does not encourage Protestants to believe this assertion. What is absolutely certain is that these religious people leave themselves open to charges of idolatry, and that alone, imv, is a grave irresponsibility and an offence.

If someone in a remote area of the world who has never heard the Gospel were shown these images, what would be his logical conclusion? He would assume that this man is worshipping an idol and that this is his god, would he not?

 

[D'Ann]

You mean like this "rich-man" in Luke 16:19?

http://foru.ms/showthread.php?p=33730992#post33730992

Luke 16:19 A-Man, yet any, was rich and clothed purple/porfuran <4209> and fine-linen/busson <1040> making-merry down to a-day, shiningly/lamprwV <2988>

Reve 18:12 merchandise/cargoes of gold, and of silver, and of precious stone, and of pearl, and of fine linen, and of purple/porfuraV <4209>, and of silk, and of scarlet, and every citron wood............................14 And the fruition of the desire of the soul of thee are lost from thee: and all fat-things and shinings/lampra <2986> are lost/aphlqen <565> from thee. And not-any not no shall be finding them.

I'm a bit dense... Not sure what you are getting at.

God Bless

 

[D'Ann]

No Doubt,

And if a person saw a picture with a non-Catholic standing infront of a cross or kneeling infront of a cross, he/she might also believe that the non-Catholic is worshipping the cross. But it wouldn't mean that the non-Catholic would really be worshipping the cross.

And if they could see a picture, obviously, they would be around a fellow Christian to teach them the difference.

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

If someone in a remote area of the world who has never heard the Gospel were shown these images, what would be his logical conclusion? He would assume that this man is worshipping an idol and that this is his god, would he not?

Hmm. The Muslims and Jews bring that kind of stuff up all the time concerning venerating statues.
The Muslims for example revere Mary but from what I have seen , they do not make icons or images of her today. Maybe they did in the past, not sure.

ROME, FEB. 11, 2008 (Zenit.org).- Five cardinals have sent a letter inviting prelates worldwide to join them in petitioning Benedict XVI to declare a fifth Marian dogma they said would "proclaim the full Christian truth about Mary.".....

 

[D'Ann]

p.s. Awesome pics No Doubt. Thanks.

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

I'm a bit dense... Not sure what you are getting at.

God Bless

That parable is actually one of the most important Covenatle parables in the NC in my humble view.

Identify that "rich-man" and you can identify the ones thrown into the "lake of fire" in Revelation.

I would suppose different Denominations view it differently, but my question would be, how would the OC Hebrew Jews/Israelites view it?

Luke 16:24 And he sounding said: "Father Abraham! be you merciful to-me! and send Lazarus!, that he should be dipping the tip of the finger of him of water, and should be cooling down the tongue of me,--that I am being pained/odunwmai <3600> (5743) in the flame, this."
29 Saying to him, Abraham: "They are having Moses and the Prophets: Let them hearken to them"!

 

[Trento]

If someone in a remote area of the world who has never heard the Gospel were shown these images, what would be his logical conclusion? He would assume that this man is worshipping an idol and that this is his god, would he not?

Christians whose piety embraces such religious objects and acts need to "always be prepared to make a defense to any one who calls you to account" (1Peter 3:15). Indeed the Gilead tribes of Israel, and the altar they made (Joshua 22:9-34), serve as a model of why we need to explain the holy rather than blasphemous meaning of our unique devotions. And by doing this, we also educate ourselves against succumbing to idolatry - as unfortunately the Hebrews eventually did with the gold serpent Moses made (2Kings 18:4).
So for example, if incense were burned before an image of Jesus, it must not be done to please the image since that would simply be idolatry. Rather, such incense should represent prayer lifted to Jesus: "accept my prayer as incense offered to you, and my upraised hands as an evening offering" (Psalm 141:2). Likewise, if someone chooses to bow to a bishop of the Church, it must be out of respect (Genesis 23:7, 1Kings 1:31, 1Tim 5:17) rather than for worship (Acts 10:25-26). If we have or wear a crucifex, it is because "we preach Christ crucified, a stumbling block to Jews and folly to Gentiles" (1Cor 1:23). If we bow to an image of God to glorify His presence, we thereby mimick the veneration of the temple (Psalm 138:2, Leviticus 19:30). If we bow to an image of a saint, we show God's will to give "glory and honor for every one who does good" (Romans 2:10). If we wear a scapular in response to the promise "he who dies in this will not suffer eternal fire," we must understand our scapular as a mnemonic for faith in Christ. And even though relics of a saint may have miraculous power, such as the bones of Elisha (2Kings 13:20-21), we must understand and profess that such power ultimately comes from God.
However, since "not all possess this knowledge," it can "defile the conscience" (1Corinthians 8:7) of weaker saints to see such use of bowing or images "since Moses has been preached in every city from the earliest times and is read in the synagogues on every Sabbath" (Act 15:21). And so we must "only take care lest this liberty somehow become a stumbling block to the weak" (1Cor 8:9, Rom 14). For if saints of weaker conscience see us venerating an image, they might be encouraged to become idolaters.

1Cor 8:
11 And so by your knowledge this weak man is destroyed, the brother for whom Christ died.
12 Thus, sinning against your brethren and wounding their conscience when it is weak, you sin against Christ.
​

Therefore, if images and veneration tempts the fall of our brethren, we should make pains to seperate them from such piety (1Tim 4:8) until they are educated of Christ's liberty - lest we cause them to fall. Whatever the case, we glorify God when we respect fellow Christians who themselves do not accept such devotions (Romans 14:1-10, Phillipians 2:3).
However, we must also be mindful of "of false brethren secretly brought in, who slipped in to spy out our freedom which we have in Christ Jesus, that they might bring us into bondage [of the law]" (Galations 2:4). More specifically, "to the pure all things are pure, but to the corrupt and unbelieving nothing is pure; their very minds and consciences are corrupted" (Titus 1:15). Such self-righteousness judges (Romans 2:1, Luke 18:9-14) "accuse us saints day and night" (Revelation 12:10) of idolatry and blasphemy. In short they "desire to be teachers of the law, without understanding either what they are saying or the things about which they make assertions" (1st Timothy 1:5-7). We need not fear such accusations and assertions:

Romans 8:
15 For you did not receive the spirit of slavery to fall back into fear, but you have received the spirit of sonship. When we cry, "Abba! Father!"
16 it is the Spirit himself bearing witness with our spirit that we are children of God
​

Indeed, armed with right knowledge in the use of these devotions (Hosea 4:6), we glorify God and show forth His freedom. "Now the Lord is the Spirit, and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is freedom" (2Corinthians 3:17). B. Arias

 

[NoDoubt]

Hmm. The Muslims and Jews bring that kind of stuff up all the time concerning venerating statues.
The Muslims for example revere Mary but from what I have seen , they do not make icons or images of her today. Maybe they did in the past, not sure.

ROME, FEB. 11, 2008 (Zenit.org).- Five cardinals have sent a letter inviting prelates worldwide to join them in petitioning Benedict XVI to declare a fifth Marian dogma they said would "proclaim the full Christian truth about Mary.".....

I know...<---it's not the Pope but close enough...(I had already started a thread about that some time ago but had to have it closed. It got a bit too heated. )

p.s. Awesome pics No Doubt. Thanks.

You're welcome.

No Doubt,

And if a person saw a picture with a non-Catholic standing infront of a cross or kneeling infront of a cross, he/she might also believe that the non-Catholic is worshipping the cross. But it wouldn't mean that the non-Catholic would really be worshipping the cross.

And if they could see a picture, obviously, they would be around a fellow Christian to teach them the difference.

I hope so, because they would have a lot of explaining to do! Btw I don't think people should kneel in front of anything. Just a personal preference.

 

[MoNiCa4316]

If someone in a remote area of the world who has never heard the Gospel were shown these images, what would be his logical conclusion? He would assume that this man is worshipping an idol and that this is his god, would he not?

But surely it would not mean that the man IS worshipping an idol in reality?

 

[D'Ann]

That parable is actually one of the most important Covenatle parables in the NC in my humble view.

Identify that "rich-man" and you can identify the ones thrown into the "lake of fire" in Revelation.

I would suppose different Denominations view it differently, but my question would be, how would the OC Hebrew Jews/Israelites view it?

Luke 16:24 And he sounding said: "Father Abraham! be you merciful to-me! and send Lazarus!, that he should be dipping the tip of the finger of him of water, and should be cooling down the tongue of me,--that I am being pained/odunwmai <3600> (5743) in the flame, this."
29 Saying to him, Abraham: "They are having Moses and the Prophets: Let them hearken to them"!

Well, I knew that, but I was trying to figure out how that particular scripture applied to what I had previously posted.

Like I said, Catholics are not worshipping these icons. For non-Catholics to say otherwise would be bearing false witness. Not only that but also, I'm still not getting a reasonable answer to why is it okay for non-Catholics to have altar calls and kneel at the altar and infront of a cross and yet, some have a problem with Catholics who do the same...

Again... there is a difference between showing respect and reverence verses worshipping... and kneeling at a cross is not the same as worship. It is a grave sin to worship the bible or picture or icon/idol and to make those items a god... We should only worship Jesus. Otherwise, we would be committing the sin of idolatry. I think we all can agree on that.

I have no problem going to an altar call and kneeling infront of a pastor for prayer or infront of a cross and having people pray over me or me praying over others... there is no difference here for Catholics... we just do this process differently than non-Catholics.

And we are not going to hell and we do not have anything in common with the rich man... other than we all have a sinful nature that we all need to sincerely and daily give up to Christ and pick up the cross and follow Jesus... and no, that doesn't mean worship the cross.

 

[NoDoubt]

Christians whose piety embraces such religious objects and acts need to "always be prepared to make a defense to any one who calls you to account" (1Peter 3:15). Indeed the Gilead tribes of Israel, and the altar they made (Joshua 22:9-34), serve as a model of why we need to explain the holy rather than blasphemous meaning of our unique devotions. And by doing this, we also educate ourselves against succumbing to idolatry - as unfortunately the Hebrews eventually did with the gold serpent Moses made (2Kings 18:4).
So for example, if incense were burned before an image of Jesus, it must not be done to please the image since that would simply be idolatry. Rather, such incense should represent prayer lifted to Jesus: "accept my prayer as incense offered to you, and my upraised hands as an evening offering" (Psalm 141:2). Likewise, if someone chooses to bow to a bishop of the Church, it must be out of respect (Genesis 23:7, 1Kings 1:31, 1Tim 5:17) rather than for worship (Acts 10:25-26). If we have or wear a crucifex, it is because "we preach Christ crucified, a stumbling block to Jews and folly to Gentiles" (1Cor 1:23). If we bow to an image of God to glorify His presence, we thereby mimick the veneration of the temple (Psalm 138:2, Leviticus 19:30). If we bow to an image of a saint, we show God's will to give "glory and honor for every one who does good" (Romans 2:10). If we wear a scapular in response to the promise "he who dies in this will not suffer eternal fire," we must understand our scapular as a mnemonic for faith in Christ. And even though relics of a saint may have miraculous power, such as the bones of Elisha (2Kings 13:20-21), we must understand and profess that such power ultimately comes from God.
However, since "not all possess this knowledge," it can "defile the conscience" (1Corinthians 8:7) of weaker saints to see such use of bowing or images "since Moses has been preached in every city from the earliest times and is read in the synagogues on every Sabbath" (Act 15:21). And so we must "only take care lest this liberty somehow become a stumbling block to the weak" (1Cor 8:9, Rom 14). For if saints of weaker conscience see us venerating an image, they might be encouraged to become idolaters.

1Cor 8:
11 And so by your knowledge this weak man is destroyed, the brother for whom Christ died.
12 Thus, sinning against your brethren and wounding their conscience when it is weak, you sin against Christ.
​

Therefore, if images and veneration tempts the fall of our brethren, we should make pains to seperate them from such piety (1Tim 4:8) until they are educated of Christ's liberty - lest we cause them to fall. Whatever the case, we glorify God when we respect fellow Christians who themselves do not accept such devotions (Romans 14:1-10, Phillipians 2:3).
However, we must also be mindful of "of false brethren secretly brought in, who slipped in to spy out our freedom which we have in Christ Jesus, that they might bring us into bondage [of the law]" (Galations 2:4). More specifically, "to the pure all things are pure, but to the corrupt and unbelieving nothing is pure; their very minds and consciences are corrupted" (Titus 1:15). Such self-righteousness judges (Romans 2:1, Luke 18:9-14) "accuse us saints day and night" (Revelation 12:10) of idolatry and blasphemy. In short they "desire to be teachers of the law, without understanding either what they are saying or the things about which they make assertions" (1st Timothy 1:5-7). We need not fear such accusations and assertions:

Romans 8:
15 For you did not receive the spirit of slavery to fall back into fear, but you have received the spirit of sonship. When we cry, "Abba! Father!"
16 it is the Spirit himself bearing witness with our spirit that we are children of God
​

Indeed, armed with right knowledge in the use of these devotions (Hosea 4:6), we glorify God and show forth His freedom. "Now the Lord is the Spirit, and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is freedom" (2Corinthians 3:17).

That was very impressive! But...did you just call me a "false bretheren secretely brought in" or am I just being paranoid?

 

[D'Ann]

Christians whose piety embraces such religious objects and acts need to "always be prepared to make a defense to any one who calls you to account" (1Peter 3:15). Indeed the Gilead tribes of Israel, and the altar they made (Joshua 22:9-34), serve as a model of why we need to explain the holy rather than blasphemous meaning of our unique devotions. And by doing this, we also educate ourselves against succumbing to idolatry - as unfortunately the Hebrews eventually did with the gold serpent Moses made (2Kings 18:4).
So for example, if incense were burned before an image of Jesus, it must not be done to please the image since that would simply be idolatry. Rather, such incense should represent prayer lifted to Jesus: "accept my prayer as incense offered to you, and my upraised hands as an evening offering" (Psalm 141:2). Likewise, if someone chooses to bow to a bishop of the Church, it must be out of respect (Genesis 23:7, 1Kings 1:31, 1Tim 5:17) rather than for worship (Acts 10:25-26). If we have or wear a crucifex, it is because "we preach Christ crucified, a stumbling block to Jews and folly to Gentiles" (1Cor 1:23). If we bow to an image of God to glorify His presence, we thereby mimick the veneration of the temple (Psalm 138:2, Leviticus 19:30). If we bow to an image of a saint, we show God's will to give "glory and honor for every one who does good" (Romans 2:10). If we wear a scapular in response to the promise "he who dies in this will not suffer eternal fire," we must understand our scapular as a mnemonic for faith in Christ. And even though relics of a saint may have miraculous power, such as the bones of Elisha (2Kings 13:20-21), we must understand and profess that such power ultimately comes from God.
However, since "not all possess this knowledge," it can "defile the conscience" (1Corinthians 8:7) of weaker saints to see such use of bowing or images "since Moses has been preached in every city from the earliest times and is read in the synagogues on every Sabbath" (Act 15:21). And so we must "only take care lest this liberty somehow become a stumbling block to the weak" (1Cor 8:9, Rom 14). For if saints of weaker conscience see us venerating an image, they might be encouraged to become idolaters.

1Cor 8:
11 And so by your knowledge this weak man is destroyed, the brother for whom Christ died.
12 Thus, sinning against your brethren and wounding their conscience when it is weak, you sin against Christ.
​

Therefore, if images and veneration tempts the fall of our brethren, we should make pains to seperate them from such piety (1Tim 4:8) until they are educated of Christ's liberty - lest we cause them to fall. Whatever the case, we glorify God when we respect fellow Christians who themselves do not accept such devotions (Romans 14:1-10, Phillipians 2:3).
However, we must also be mindful of "of false brethren secretly brought in, who slipped in to spy out our freedom which we have in Christ Jesus, that they might bring us into bondage [of the law]" (Galations 2:4). More specifically, "to the pure all things are pure, but to the corrupt and unbelieving nothing is pure; their very minds and consciences are corrupted" (Titus 1:15). Such self-righteousness judges (Romans 2:1, Luke 18:9-14) "accuse us saints day and night" (Revelation 12:10) of idolatry and blasphemy. In short they "desire to be teachers of the law, without understanding either what they are saying or the things about which they make assertions" (1st Timothy 1:5-7). We need not fear such accusations and assertions:

Romans 8:
15 For you did not receive the spirit of slavery to fall back into fear, but you have received the spirit of sonship. When we cry, "Abba! Father!"
16 it is the Spirit himself bearing witness with our spirit that we are children of God
​

Indeed, armed with right knowledge in the use of these devotions (Hosea 4:6), we glorify God and show forth His freedom. "Now the Lord is the Spirit, and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is freedom" (2Corinthians 3:17).

Awesome post. I have to post it again.

 

[NoDoubt]

But surely it would not mean that the man IS worshipping an idol in reality?

But isn't that the message he would be sending out initially?

 

[Trento]

That was very impressive! But...did you just call me a "false bretheren secretely brought in" or am I just being paranoid?

There is nothing personal there.

 

[D'Ann]

I know...<---it's not the Pope but close enough...(I had already started a thread about that some time ago but had to have it closed. It got a bit too heated. )

You're welcome.
I hope so, because they would have a lot of explaining to do! Btw I don't think people should kneel in front of anything. Just a personal preference.

I look at kneeling as a sign of respect. I kneel when I pray to Jesus at Mass... but I do understand as best as I can why you may have a different way of looking at this.

God's Peace

 

[Thekla]

iconoclasm arose in the east as an effort to "make friendly" with Islam (as in Islam, pictures were forbidden) -- removing icons was a political act of appeasement.

the restoration of icons by the 7th Ecumenical Council is celebrated to this day as a victory of Christianity -- remembering that the encroachment of syncretism (in this case, Islam was kept from influencing Christianity) was averted.

 

[NoDoubt]

There is nothing personal there.

Thank you.

 

[WarriorAngel]

If someone in a remote area of the world who has never heard the Gospel were shown these images, what would be his logical conclusion? He would assume that this man is worshipping an idol and that this is his god, would he not?

Never assume.

 

[WarriorAngel]

Kneeling is not a sign of worship.
Many peasants kneeled before kings.
They were showing respect.

Bowing is not worshipping, many were bowed to, such as the Angels whom
Lot bowed before.

I think history and the Bible should be carefully read to understand 'showing respect' vs today's world of 'no respect' and so ppl dont
comprehend how things are/were done when showing utmost respect and honor.

I may or may not kneel before the 'icon' of Mary...

BUT.....I dont fear bowing or kneeling because
I KNOW I am not worshipping her.

Tis why Jesus tells us NOT to judge
one another since we CANNOT read hearts.

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

Never assume.

Ya think the pope is quoting this as he is looking a "mary"? That is how I would view it being a non-Christian

Revelation 18:7 As much as glorifies herself, and indulges be giving to her tormenting and mourning that in her heart she is saying 'I am sitting a Queen and widow not I am, and mourning not I shall be seeing'.