venerating icons, statues, etc

[D'Ann]

Before I was Catholic, I never would have viewed that picture as the pope worshipping Mary. I don't think that I would want to make that kind of assumption.

 

[Thekla]

iconoclasm arose in the east as an effort to "make friendly" with Islam (as in Islam, pictures were forbidden) -- removing icons was a political act of appeasement.

the restoration of icons by the 7th Ecumenical Council is celebrated to this day as a victory of Christianity -- remembering that the encroachment of syncretism (in this case, Islam was kept from influencing Christianity) was averted.

I'm responding to my own post
to add info

“Shall I tell you what I heard from the Messenger of Allah, Prophet Muhammed (Allah bless him and give him peace) I heard the Messenger of Allah say, “Every maker of pictures will go to the fire, where a being will be set upon him to torment him in hell for each picture he made. So if you must, draw tress and things without animate life in them.”

from here: http://www.islamicacademy.org/html/Articles/English/Picutres_in_Islam.htm

(its the second google hit I found -- so randomly chosen,btw)

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

I'm responding to my own post
to add info

from here: http://www.islamicacademy.org/html/Articles/English/Picutres_in_Islam.htm

(its the second google hit I found -- so randomly chosen,btw)

Hi Thekla! Have you ever read Islam's version of Mary and Jesus.

http://www.islamreligion.com/articles/621/
The Birth of Jesus

"So she conceived him, and she withdrew with him to a remote place. And the pains of childbirth drove her to the trunk of a palm tree. She said, ‘I wish I had died before this, and had been long forgotten. [Mary was worried that people would think badly of her as she was not married.]

Genesis 21:9 And Sarah saw the son of Hagar the Egyptian, which she had born unto Abraham, mocking.

Genesis 21:14 And Abraham rose up early in the morning, and took bread, and a bottle of water, and gave it unto Hagar, putting it on her shoulder, and the child, and sent her away: and she departed, and wandered in the wilderness of Beer-sheba.

 

[Thekla]

Hi Thekla! Have you ever read Islam's version of Mary and Jesus.

http://www.islamreligion.com/articles/621/
The Birth of Jesus

"So she conceived him, and she withdrew with him to a remote place. And the pains of childbirth drove her to the trunk of a palm tree. She said, ‘I wish I had died before this, and had been long forgotten. [Mary was worried that people would think badly of her as she was not married.]

Genesis 21:9 And Sarah saw the son of Hagar the Egyptian, which she had born unto Abraham, mocking.

Genesis 21:14 And Abraham rose up early in the morning, and took bread, and a bottle of water, and gave it unto Hagar, putting it on her shoulder, and the child, and sent her away: and she departed, and wandered in the wilderness of Beer-sheba.

Thanks, LLoJ --

quite interesting ! Both Gospel sources and "traditional teachings" about the Theotokos are included in the passages, though of course distorted. But it does make the document historically interesting, as (is often the case with Islam) one can see bits of Christianity through the distortion and changes. So Islam "shows" both ancient Christian practice and teaching, and it is understandable why earlier Christians thought of Islam as "another Christian heresy".

thanks again

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

Thanks, LLoJ --

quite interesting ! Both Gospel sources and "traditional teachings" about the Theotokos are included in the passages, though of course distorted. But it does make the document historically interesting, as (is often the case with Islam) one can see bits of Christianity through the distortion and changes. So Islam "shows" both ancient Christian practice and teaching, and it is understandable why earlier Christians thought of Islam as "another Christian heresy".

thanks again

You are welcome. Their story of Isaac/Ishmael is also different, which we debated on the NCR board awhile back. I gave up on it as they do not believe in the Resurrection and/or the Scriptural significance of it LOL

http://www.islamic-awareness.org/Quran/Contrad/MusTrad/sacrifice.html

......"In a nutshell, the great Qur'ânic commentator Ibn Kathîr adds to our first three arguments two new ones: according to the Bible, the sacrificed is said to be Abraham's(P) only son (or his firstborn in some versions), which cannot fit Isaac(P); according to the Qur'ân, the good news of Isaac(P) said that he would have a progeny and consequently God cannot order Abraham(P) to sacrifice Isaac(P) before the promise is fulfilled. Again, according to the Qur'ân, the sacrificed cannot be Isaac............

Genes 22:9 And they are comong unto the place which He said to him, the Elohiym, and Abraham is building there the altar, and he is arranging the woods, and is binding Isaac his son, and is placing him upon the altar from above the woods; 10 and Abraham is stretching forth his hand, and is taking the knife to slaughter/07819 shachat of his son. 11 And a messenger of YHWH is calling to him from the heavens, and is saying, "Abraham, Abraham;'" and He saying, "Behold Me"! 12 and He is saying, "must not thou be stretching forth thy hand to the lad, and must not thou are doing anything to him, that now I know that fearing one of Elohiym, and not thou withheld thy son, thine only one, from Me."

Acts 13:29 As yet they finish/etelesan <5055> all-things the about Him having been written, taking-down from the wood/xulou<3586>, they laid/place Him into a tomb;

 

[BigNorsk]

hmm well oki how about I put my question in slightly different terms

let's say you saw someone ..I dunno, let's say they're burning a picture of Christ or something.

Do you think this would offend the Lord.

If so, that means that what they did to the picture got attributed to Jesus (they disrespected Him).

So if disrespect to an image/symbol gets attributed to what it represents...why not veneration (respect)?

this would mean that when Catholics and Orthodox venerate images...we are not worshipping the image, but Christ on the image.

hope that makes sense more..

An unbeliever would be offensive to the Lord. Burning the picture wouldn't have anything to do with that.

You want to make a big deal about a painting that some artist made to represent Jesus. I don't know why that should be the big deal. God told you he made that person in his image, God didn't say some picture is his image, the person is.

If you want to be offended about someone desecrating the image of God, then I would suggest you should be concerned with how man treats man.

The idea of the guy burning a picture. That really doesn't have much to do with God, he wouldn't be burning it to offend God, he'd be buring it to offend you, and it sounds like it would work. It sounds like you want to justify the offense you would take by saying it is offense God would take.

But God never told us to make paintings and hang them all over, it's people and not God that did that. Instead God warned us about images. They tend to become too important to people you know. After awhile people seem to think the image and what it represents are the same. And they are not. Never were, never will be. If you start to treat the image you say represents Jesus as Jesus, then it is you who have become offensive to God, and the loving thing to do would be to burn it so you no longer had it to esteeme too highly. I admit, I probably wouldn't do that, I guess I fail in the love category.

My apologies.

Marv

 

[D'Ann]

An unbeliever would be offensive to the Lord. Burning the picture wouldn't have anything to do with that.

You want to make a big deal about a painting that some artist made to represent Jesus. I don't know why that should be the big deal. God told you he made that person in his image, God didn't say some picture is his image, the person is.

If you want to be offended about someone desecrating the image of God, then I would suggest you should be concerned with how man treats man.

The idea of the guy burning a picture. That really doesn't have much to do with God, he wouldn't be burning it to offend God, he'd be buring it to offend you, and it sounds like it would work. It sounds like you want to justify the offense you would take by saying it is offense God would take.

But God never told us to make paintings and hang them all over, it's people and not God that did that. Instead God warned us about images. They tend to become too important to people you know. After awhile people seem to think the image and what it represents are the same. And they are not. Never were, never will be. If you start to treat the image you say represents Jesus as Jesus, then it is you who have become offensive to God, and the loving thing to do would be to burn it so you no longer had it to esteeme too highly. I admit, I probably wouldn't do that, I guess I fail in the love category.

My apologies.

Marv

Just because someone has a sentimental attachment to something like a cross or bible or picture does not mean they are worshipping those items. And somehow, I think that if someone started burning a bible in front of you... I can't help but think that you would care. How could you not? We don't worship the bible, but we cherish the words within the bible. We don't worship the cross, but we cherish what the cross symbolizes to us. We don't worship the pictures or statues, but we cherish what they represent to us. Also, when there is an altar call for people to kneel and pray to God, they are not worshipping the altar or the pastor or the cross that happens to be there, they are praying to God and/or worshipping God. Kneeling has always, since the beginning of time, been a sign of showing respect. For some, it could become a type of worship, but most people kneel out of love and respect for God and they are kneeling as a means to worship and pray to God... and the kneeling and the altar and all of the other symbols point us towards God...

There is a difference between respect (reverence) and worshipping items, and that is the point that I believe Monica is trying to make.

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

There is a difference between respect (reverence) and worshipping items, and that is the point that I believe Monica is trying to make.

Well, you could always say what Jesus said in Luke 23:34 and let the Lord deal with them

Luke 23:34 The yet Jesus said "Father! forgive/suffer Thee them for not they are aware/knowing what they are doing

Reve 6:16 And they are saying to the mountains and to the rocks: 'Be falling upon us! and hide us! from Face of the One sitting upon the Throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb-kin 17 that came the Day, the great, of His wrath, and who is able to stand'.

 

[Joykins]

hmm well oki how about I put my question in slightly different terms

let's say you saw someone ..I dunno, let's say they're burning a picture of Christ or something.

Do you think this would offend the Lord.

The Lord has an ability that I do not, to see the heart of the person doing this and know why they are doing it and being able to judge with the complete picture in mind. So, I cannot tell. It would probably offend ME.

If so, that means that what they did to the picture got attributed to Jesus (they disrespected Him).

So if disrespect to an image/symbol gets attributed to what it represents...why not veneration (respect)?

this would mean that when Catholics and Orthodox venerate images...we are not worshipping the image, but Christ on the image.

hope that makes sense more..

Symbolic acts can be very powerful, especially socially. I tend to think people overrate symbols as opposed to the substance, but I can also recognize that what I think about this doesn't necessarily place negative judgment on others who disagree.

In other words, I defend and respect your right to define and treat icons as powerful symbols of your faith although it doesn't work for me.

 

[racer]

I was thinking about how many Protestants believe that it is wrong to venerate (ie: show respect to), say - an icon or statue or painting of Jesus, because that is 'worshipping the image, not Christ'.

I have a question for you guys.

If someone told you to show disrespect an image of Christ, would you do it?

why or why not?

(and if you say 'no', why, wouldn't you just be disrespecting the image, not the Lord Himself? if you disagree with this though, then why should it be any different with veneration? When we venerate images of Christ or of His Saints..we are not thinking about the images themselves, but the people who are depicted on them..and whatever honour we (seemingly) give to the images (the symbols) actually goes to the Lord - and that is what we intend)

hope my question makes sense!

God bless

monica

Here is the irony of your statement (and I haven't read any of the other posts as of yet), these people who "believe" that RCS or EOCs are actually worshipping images by venerating them, obviously do not distinguish between revering a dipiction of or an image of Jesus. So, of course they would not disrespect or damage an image of Christ.

God said that we should not worship idols or put any other Gods before Him. Idols are items/gods that are worshipped "instead of God." God is completely replaced by these items. That is idol worship.

Now, that said, I don't believe that touching items supposedly having belonged to a saint or touching an image of a saint will produce miracles. I don't believe that by praying to saints that are possibly in heaven with Jesus is anymore beneficial that asking a living, breathing, christian friend still earthbound to pray for you.


I don't consider it to be idol worship either.

 

[BereanTodd]

God said that we should not worship idols or put any other Gods before Him. Idols are items/gods that are worshipped "instead of God." God is completely replaced by these items. That is idol worship.

You have an interesting memory there, however God devoted one of the 10 commandments to explicitly stating:

4 "You shall not make for yourself a carved image, or any likeness of anything that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth.

It doesn't say don't worship, it says don't even make them.

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

You have an interesting memory there, however God devoted one of the 10 commandments to explicitly stating:

4 "You shall not make for yourself a carved image, or any likeness of anything that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth.

It doesn't say don't worship, it says don't even make them.

Ok. How many Catholics work on Sunday?

8 To remember day of the Sabbath, to hallow it.
9 Six of days shalt thou serve, and thou do all thy work;
10 And day of the seventh to YHWH thy Elohiym: not thou shall do any of work of thee, and thy son, and thy daughter, thy man-servant, and thy maid-servant, and thy cattle, thy sojourner who in thy gates:

Btw, has anyone read this article concerning the 10 commandments?

http://www.biblicalheritage.org/Bible%20Studies/10com2b.htm

 

[Trento]

You have an interesting memory there, however God devoted one of the 10 commandments to explicitly stating:

4 "You shall not make for yourself a carved image, or any likeness of anything that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth.

It doesn't say don't worship, it says don't even make them.

In the ten commandments of Exodus 20:4-5, a clear law is given:

4 "You shall not make for yourself a graven image, or any likeness of anything that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth;
5 you shall not bow down to them or serve them; for I the LORD your God am a jealous God
​

This commandment is made doubly adament, since the ten commandments (the decalogue) are repeated twice - once in Exodus and once in Deuteronomy 5:6-21. And to avoid controversy, the decalogue of Deuteronomy is prefaced with a careful explanation of exactly why God forbids the making of images of Himself:

Deuteronomy 4:
15 "Therefore take good heed to yourselves. Since you saw no form on the day that the LORD spoke to you at Horeb out of the midst of the fire,
16 beware lest you act corruptly by making a graven image...
​

Thus no images of God are to be made, because the people of God saw no form of God on mount Horeb. But despite this, even in the Old Testament, religious objects and statues could be made as long as they were not known to represent God himself:

Numbers 21:
8 And the LORD said to Moses, "Make a fiery serpent, and set it on a pole; and every one who is bitten, when he sees it, shall live."
9 So Moses made a bronze serpent, and set it on a pole; and if a serpent bit any man, he would look at the bronze serpent and live.
​

In fact, it was even acceptable to venerate religious objects by bowing towards them:

Leviticus 19:30 You shall venerate my sanctuary: I am the LORD.
Psalm 138:2 I bow down toward thy holy temple...
​

It was also acceptable to make self-expression with religious objects, such as the Jordan altar (Joshua 22:9-34), or a procession:

2Samuel 6:
11 And the ark of the LORD remained in the house of Obededom the Gittite three months; and the LORD blessed Obededom and all his household.
12 And it was told King David, "The LORD has blessed the household of Obededom and all that belongs to him, because of the ark of God." So David went and brought up the ark of God from the house of Obededom to the city of David with rejoicing;
13 and when those who bore the ark of the LORD had gone six paces, he sacrificed an ox and a fatling.
14 And David danced before the LORD with all his might; and David was girded with a linen ephod [religious garb].
15 So David and all the house of Israel brought up the ark of the LORD with shouting, and with the sound of the horn.
​

And so while some objects and acts were governed strictly, such as the priestly liturgical censers (Leviticus 10:1-10), freedom was given regarding other religious objects and acts. Even so, the first point must be repeated: Scripture forbade the making or bowing to images of God Himself because God's people had not seen His form (Deuteronomy 4:15-16).
But the incarnation of Jesus Christ changed that circumstance. As is written:

John 14:
7 "If you had known me, you would have known my Father also; henceforth you know him and have seen him."
8 Philip said to him, "Lord, show us the Father, and we shall be satisfied."
9 Jesus said to him, "Have I been with you so long, and yet you do not know me, Philip? He who has seen me has seen the Father; how can you say, `Show us the Father'?
​

So in the person of Jesus we have now seen God's form, which therefore removes the reason for prohibiting images of God (Deuteronomy 4:15-16). And it is written "a former commandment is set aside because of its weakness and uselessness" (Hebrews 7:15). Thus now the measure of idolatry is not by externals (Luke 11:37-41), by merely having or not having images of God, but instead the measure comes from the heart (Matthew 15:10-20, 1Tim 1:5). This is the law of Christ (1st Cor 9:21, Gal 6:2), setting us free from legalism (Romans 7:6), as it is written: B. Arias

 

[MamaZ]

IT says you shall not make them.. Meaning don't make them.. Do not bow down to them.. We are not to make them even of created things.. in the heavens or in the earth...

 

[Polycarp1]

To take a secular issue somewhat related to the question at hand, during the Vietnam Era in America there was an enormous controversy about burning the American Flag. Something I found ironic was that the official manual of flag etiquette provided that the proper way to dispose of a frayed, damaged flag was to cut out the union and then cut along the stripes, then respectfully burn the separate pieces.

The obvious point is that the bunting itself had no particular value; it was the meaning invested in the flag as a symbol of America that made flag burning so offensive to patriots. And the significance of a symbol, the respect to be paid to it, and the extent to which it is invested, in people's minds, with the importance of what it is a symbol of, will vary.

What is the key objection to worshipping an idol? (And by that I don't mean a facile "God forbade it" -- but why does He say He forbade it? What is the significance of an idol in worship? Why was this offiensive to Him?

Contrariwise, to what extent is He solicitous of the human need for a focus in worship? For something to represent the Most High God? If Jesus stood in the flesh before you today, would it be expected of you to fall down before Him and worship Him?

Is doing what Jesus commanded laudable? If so, do the tools one uses to follow His commandments deserve respect? Does God give grace through things of this world? If so, does what He uses to convey that grace deserve respect? What kind of respect? Who draws the line?

Does a Christian leader, one who teaches by example, warrant respect? Even after he or she dies? What kind of respect? Who draws the line?

 

[racer]

You have an interesting memory there, however God devoted one of the 10 commandments to explicitly stating:

Memory? You give me far too much credit. I usually double check my comments with Scripture before posting. However, how much thought have you given to the verse you have touted?

4 "You shall not make for yourself a carved image, or any likeness of anything that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth.

So, you got any family photos hanging around anywhere? If you do--better burn 'em.

It doesn't say don't worship, it says don't even make them.

Sure does. So, how far are you willing to take that commandment? Are you going to get rid of all the artwork in your house or office?

 

[WarriorAngel]

IT says you shall not make them.. Meaning don't make them.. Do not bow down to them.. We are not to make them even of created things.. in the heavens or in the earth...

TO make them a god...[by using images of things such as cows, trees, or whatever INTO gods]
Otherwise, all the pictures of loved ones are also bad.

I am going to assume you do have photos of family. Well, graven? Technically our technology still creates a likeness of someone on earth.

Its CONTEXT, not content.

 

[MamaZ]

Well I will admit that yes I do have pictures of my family.. I do not go to them and talk to them or pray to them. They do however hang on my wall. Very seldom do I even look at them other than when I dust them about once a week.. SO I have to admit that I am guilty of having these..

 

[racer]

Well I will admit that yes I do have pictures of my family.. I do not go to them and talk to them or pray to them. They do however hang on my wall. Very seldom do I even look at them other than when I dust them about once a week.. SO I have to admit that I am guilty of having these..

When tragedy strikes and people lose their homes due to weather or fire, what are the main things they did out of fires?

Trust me, I too battled Catholics over this issue. But, soon found that it's really not an issue. Yes they revere images of saints---and even "pray" to them. But, have you never picked up a picture of a loved one who is deceased and said, even to yourself, "I miss you" or "I wish you were still here with me?"

Veneration of saints and images, when not being abused and carried to the fanatical side, is not idol worship. The identity of God is not lost nor is He replaced.

However, just for the record, as a non-Catholic, I question whether saints in heaven can hear our prayers. They would be in possession of Godlike powers if they could hear all prayers that go up to them at one time. "I" believe only God has that ability.

 

[MommasaursRex]

IT says you shall not make them.. Meaning don't make them.. Do not bow down to them.. We are not to make them even of created things.. in the heavens or in the earth...

OH NO! Now someone tells me!


MRex(runs outside to her yard to smash the pink flamingos)