venerating icons, statues, etc

[New_Wineskin]

Edited by self . This post was a response to another that was off topic .

 

[New_Wineskin]

quote:
Perhaps maybe if it was a Christ-ian burning it it might, but then how do ya "murder" a picture?.


I was thinking about that option but I came to the conclusion that the believer would not only be doing this but doing it to specifically disrespect the Lord . However , that would give me reason to consider that the person was *not* a believer , afterall . Either way , it wouldn't be about the image but about the person's attitude towards Him .

So , I still cannot fathom why the Lord would do so .

 

[Trento]

When people, especially Americans who usually know zilch about the world as a whole, come onto the 'net and say that 'we' don't worship icons/statues, they are fabricating, simply because they cannot know what goes on in the minds of the millions in poor countries. They can't even prove that they are telling the truth about themselves. There is a well-known photo of Mr Wojtyla on bended knee before a crowned statue of 'Mary' (who never looks anything like a Jewess in the 'Tradition' tradition). This sort of thing, and the experience of those who have taken the gospel to countries such as Chile, Portugal, Romania and Russia, does not encourage Protestants to believe this assertion. What is absolutely certain is that these religious people leave themselves open to charges of idolatry, and that alone, imv, is a grave irresponsibility and an offence.

But there is more bad news. Icons and statues are, imv, a subtle form of mendacity. Many show scenes of Bible events that are distortions, heresies in paint. Pictures of 'Jesus' never look remotely like what the artisans of Nazareth took to be one of their own, but, usually, an effete intellectual uninvolved with the practical matters of the world. So if someone said to me, 'Show disrespect to this image of Jesus," I would have no compunction about taking a dangerous lie out of the world, provided that my intent was known to witnesses, of course.

!

Welcome to the A.C.L.U. They are on the way to rid the Country of anything related to Christianity.

No one familiar with the early years of Christianity can be unaware of the loathing and disdain that our Christians forefathers had of Idolatry. Countless thousands died in excruciating ways rather than offer Incense to the Emperor as God, or worship the State deities. One would have thought that this was so obvious as to be beyond dispute.
From the second century onwards in the very cemeteries where the bones of the martyrs were laid to rest we find the earliest representations of our Lady, our Lord and the saints. For self-styled 'Christians' to accuse the early Christians of idolatry on this account is so vicious and insensitive an assumption that it must bring a smile of contentment to the devil's face.


"A Christian people celebrates together in religious solemnity the memorials of the martyrs, both to encourage their being imitated and so that it can share in their merits and be aided by their prayers. But it is done in such a way that our altars are not set up to any one of the martyrs -- although in their memory -- but to God Himself, the God of those martyrs." (Augustine, Against Faustus the Manichaean, c. 400 AD, 20,21, from Jurgens, Faith of the Early Fathers, volume 3, page 59)



Describing a painting of Abraham preparing to sacrifice his only son Isaac, St Gregory of Nysa (330-39S) writes, 'I have often seen the image of his suffering in a painting and passed the night not without tears, so vividly did the art of the painter bring the story before the eyes'. 7
Prudentius, in 405 saw in the forum Cornelianum in Rome a picture of the martyrdom of St Cornelius, a schoolmaster whom the pagan magistrate had ordered his pupils to stab to death with the styluses they used for writing on their wax tablets, at school. 8
St Nilus, also known as the ascetic (died 430) advised Olympiodorus, from Thebes in Egypt,

'to fill the holy Church on all sides with stories from the Old and New Testament by the hand of the finest painter, that those who cannot read or write and are unable to read the Holy Scriptures might, by contemplating the picture be reminded of the virtue of those who served God truly.
​

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

St Nilus, also known as the ascetic (died 430) advised Olympiodorus, from Thebes in Egypt,

'to fill the holy Church on all sides with stories from the Old and New Testament by the hand of the finest painter, that those who cannot read or write and are unable to read the Holy Scriptures might, by contemplating the picture be reminded of the virtue of those who served God truly.
​

Now the next thing to do is get them to believe the Bible itself is the Inspired Words of YHWH and His Christ.
We all know how difficult it can to believe in something "Not Seen" but we know it is the Heart that feels all things and His Words must convict that heart with Spirit and Truth also, correct?

Jeremiah 17:10 I YHWH, searching heart, examining the affections/kidneys/ 03629 kilyah and giving to man Ways of him, as fruit of his doings. [Reve 22:23]

Reve 2:23 And the offspring of her I shall be killing in death, and shall be knowing all the Out-Calleds that I am the One searching kidneys/nefrouV <3510> and hearts and I shall be giving to Ye each according to the works of Ye. [Jeremiah 17:10]

 

[Trento]

Now the next thing to do is get them to believe the Bible itself is the Inspired Words of YHWH and His Christ.
We all know how difficult it can to believe in something "Not Seen" but we know it is the Heart that feels all things and His Words must convict that heart with Spirit and Truth also, correct?

]

Most at that time could not read and bibles were scarce as it took years to print by hand. Just figure now days at $15 an hour if someone was print the entire bible by hand what it would cost.

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

Most at that time could not read and bibles were scarce as it took years to print by hand. Just figure now days at $15 an hour if someone was print the entire bible by hand what it would cost.

It is not that way today

John 18:37 Said then to Him, the Pilate: "Not then a king art Thou"? Answered the Jesus: "Thou are saying that a king am I. Into this I have been born, and into this, I have come into the world, that I should be testifying to the Truth. Every the one being out of the Truth, is hearing of Me the voice.

John 19:11 Answered the Jesus: "Not thou are having authority against Me, none at all, if no not to thee been given from above. Therefore this the one delivering up Me to thee greater sin is having".

 

[D'Ann]

quote:
How about if you caught a person burning a picture of your mother? Or your father or brother or sister, how would that effect your heart?

For me personally, if someone burned a picture of my mom or dad or siblings or kids in front of me... I would want to kick their butts.


Then it wouldn't be about them but me - trying to rile me - nothing about disrespecting them . Your expected response indictes that they would win with you .

Maybe I don't buy into all of that who wins stuff and an insult is an insult and well... sorry, but bad behavior does effect others. Period. Disrespect is disrespect... wrong is wrong... there is no gray area here imho.

My mom use to use that logic on me and for the longest time, I allowed people to push me around, it took a lot of courage to learn how to stand up and fight back and so... sorry, but I don't care about what their reason is... the bottom line to me is they are burning a picture(s) of my loved ones and no way would I just stand there and not fight back in one way or another.

But that is not what this thread is about. It's about the terminalogy that non-Catholics verses Catholics use when it comes to showing respect to those that we love and respect and admire.

When I was Pentecostal and even Methodist and Lutheran now that I'm thinking about it, I had no problem going up to the altar and kneeling in front of a cross that represented Jesus to me. I wasn't worshipping the cross, I was worshipping Jesus and the cross was a symbol of Jesus to me...

So... the question is... what is the difference between when non-Catholics go to the altar for an altar call and kneel and are prayed over or may be the ones praying infront of a cross verses Catholics who show the same respect by kneeling at a symbol of Jesus or another that points them to Jesus? There is a big difference between showing reverence and respect verses bowing down and worshipping an statue or cross or picture. I think that is what this thread is about, but I could be mistaken... it wouldn't be the first time that I missed a point or two or three... or four... and probably more... five... six... LOL

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

My mom use to use that logic on me and for the longest time, I allowed people to push me around, it took a lot of courage to learn how to stand up and fight back and so... sorry, but I don't care about what their reason is... the bottom line to me is they are burning a picture(s) of my loved ones and no way would I just stand there and not fight back in one way or another.

Hi. On CF, Atheists only use Reason and Logic whereas we use the Sword of the Spirit. Most of the time our sword just seems to go right thru them without touching them, but perhaps a 1 in a million thrust might hit just one of them in the heart.

Reve 2:17 The one having an ear let him hear! what the Spirit is saying to the Out-Called: To the one conquering I shall be giving to him of the manna, of the having been hidden, and I shall be giving him a counter/yhfon <5586> and on the counter/yhfon <5586> a name, new, having been written which no one has seen if no/except the one obtaining.

Reve 13:18 Here the Wisdom is, the one having Mind let him calculate/yhfisatw <5585> (5657) the number the number of the wild-beast/N for of man it is and the number of it six hundred sixty six. [Luke 14:28 uses "calculating"]

 

[D'Ann]

quote:
How about if you caught a person burning a picture of your mother? Or your father or brother or sister, how would that effect your heart?

For me personally, if someone burned a picture of my mom or dad or siblings or kids in front of me... I would want to kick their butts.


Then it wouldn't be about them but me - trying to rile me - nothing about disrespecting them . Your expected response indictes that they would win with you .

Hi. On CF, Atheists only use Reason and Logic whereas we use the Sword of the Spirit. Most of the time our sword just seems to go right thru them without touching them, but perhaps a 1 in a million thrust might hit just one of them in the heart.

Reve 2:17 The one having an ear let him hear! what the Spirit is saying to the Out-Called: To the one conquering I shall be giving to him of the manna, of the having been hidden, and I shall be giving him a counter/yhfon <5586> and on the counter/yhfon <5586> a name, new, having been written which no one has seen if no/except the one obtaining.

Reve 13:18 Here the Wisdom is, the one having Mind let him calculate/yhfisatw <5585> (5657) the number the number of the wild-beast/N for of man it is and the number of it six hundred sixty six. [Luke 14:28 uses "calculating"]

Very true. that being said, I'm human... and no one should mess around with anyone's family and not expect to have some trouble over it. That being said, being a Christian does mean we need to forgive and not seek revenge. So... anyway, not sure what this has to do with the topic at hand. LOL

 

[New_Wineskin]

Edited by self . There is no reason to discuss something with someone who would beat/kill someone over the destruction of a picture .

 

[New_Wineskin]

Edited by self for same reason .

 

[Trento]

quote:

Of course , that would be your rationalization to be more disrespectful than the person whom you think you are better . The real reason would be that you simply want to bully someone and that a picture is more important in your eyes than a human being . You only prove that they have a right to be disrespectful to you and your family since you have none for them .

The reason you want to beat/kill people over things is because you want to do that . You will give any reason for it . How did they obtain the pictures if you did not provide them ? Or , what did you do to provoke them into waiting for you to witness their damaging the items only so that you would then have a reason to escalate it into being physical ?

When it was almost time for the Jewish Passover, Jesus went up to Jerusalem. In the Temple courts he found men selling cattle, sheep and doves and others sitting at tables exchanging money. So he made a whip out of cords and drove all from the Temple, both sheep and cattle; he scattered the coins of the money changers and overturned their tables. To those who sold doves he said: 'Get out of here.' (John 2:13-16)

The temple is just a building made of stone and mortice. Why would Jesus get so violent over a mere building?

 

[New_Wineskin]

quote:When it was almost time for the Jewish Passover, Jesus went up to Jerusalem. In the Temple courts he found men selling cattle, sheep and doves and others sitting at tables exchanging money. So he made a whip out of cords and drove all from the Temple, both sheep and cattle; he scattered the coins of the money changers and overturned their tables. To those who sold doves he said: 'Get out of here.' (John 2:13-16)The temple is just a building made of stone and mortice. Why would Jesus get so violent over a mere building?


He wouldn't - and didn't . The temple *was* not just a building and you should know that . The Catholics even think that their clubhouses are holy for some reason even though the Lord stated that only one building would be declared to be such .

Those things weren't done to get Jesus riled . Nor did Jesus beat anyone . None of that has anything to do with that part of the discussion .

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

When it was almost time for the Jewish Passover, Jesus went up to Jerusalem. In the Temple courts he found men selling cattle, sheep and doves and others sitting at tables exchanging money. So he made a whip out of cords and drove all from the Temple, both sheep and cattle; he scattered the coins of the money changers and overturned their tables. To those who sold doves he said: 'Get out of here.' (John 2:13-16)

The temple is just a building made of stone and mortice. Why would Jesus get so violent over a mere building?

Perhaps they were giving more veneration to the objects of the Temple and Sanctuary than they were giving to YHWH?

Luke 21:5 And certain saying about the Temple that to Stones ideal/kaloiV <2570>, and devoted-things/anaqhmasin <334> it hath been adorned/worlded/kekosmhtai <2885>, He said,

Reve 21:2 And the city, the holy, Jerusalem, New, I perceived descending out of the heaven from the God, having been made ready as bride having been adorned/worlded/kekosmhmenhn <2885> (5772) to the man of her.

 

[D'Ann]

quote:When it was almost time for the Jewish Passover, Jesus went up to Jerusalem. In the Temple courts he found men selling cattle, sheep and doves and others sitting at tables exchanging money. So he made a whip out of cords and drove all from the Temple, both sheep and cattle; he scattered the coins of the money changers and overturned their tables. To those who sold doves he said: 'Get out of here.' (John 2:13-16)The temple is just a building made of stone and mortice. Why would Jesus get so violent over a mere building?


He wouldn't - and didn't . The temple *was* not just a building and you should know that . The Catholics even think that their clubhouses are holy for some reason even though the Lord stated that only one building would be declared to be such .

Those things weren't done to get Jesus riled . Nor did Jesus beat anyone . None of that has anything to do with that part of the discussion .

Actually, Trento was quoting Scripture.

Also, you are reading a lot into my words that I didn't even imply. it's not a very nice thing to make these negative assumptions about me. I would never kill anyone, nor would I "beat" someone in the way that you are falsely accusing me of. Hey... you are missing the point that I was making... which was that just because people kneel infront of a cross or anything does not mean that they are worshipping that object. Kneeling is a form of respect, but it is not the same as worship and that is the point that I was trying to make with the picture thing and well.. obviously, I didn't do a very good job of it. That being said, if someone did burn a picture of my family in front of me, sorry, but yeah, I would respond back in a negative way, but no, I wouldn't kill them, nor would I even use an object to hit them with. I would probably slap them and pull their hair.. LOL (sorta of kidding... trying to make light of the situation).

 

[MoNiCa4316]

I agree with you D'Ann

 

[D'Ann]

Perhaps they were giving more veneration to the objects of the Temple and Sanctuary than they were giving to YHWH?

Luke 21:5 And certain saying about the Temple that to Stones ideal/kaloiV <2570>, and devoted-things/anaqhmasin <334> it hath been adorned/worlded/kekosmhtai <2885>, He said,

Reve 21:2 And the city, the holy, Jerusalem, New, I perceived descending out of the heaven from the God, having been made ready as bride having been adorned/worlded/kekosmhmenhn <2885> (5772) to the man of her.

Actually, they were using the temple for business of making money due to their own greed and that is why Jesus got upset and responded in a righteous and right way.

 

[D'Ann]

There is a lot more to it, but that it's in a basic way.

 

[D'Ann]

I agree with you D'Ann

Hugs to you.


Wineskin, here is the Scripture that Trento was quoting... I'm posting it from the King Jame's Version...

John 2:12-22 12 After this he went down to Capernaum, he, and his mother, and his brethren, and his disciples: and they continued there not many days. 13 And the Jews' passover was at hand, and Jesus went up to Jerusalem, 14 And found in the temple those that sold oxen and sheep and doves, and the changers of money sitting: 15 And when he had made a scourge of small cords, he drove them all out of the temple, and the sheep, and the oxen; and poured out the changers' money, and overthrew the tables; 16 And said unto them that sold doves, Take these things hence; make not my Father's house an house of merchandise. 17 And his disciples remembered that it was written, The zeal of thine house hath eaten me up. 18 Then answered the Jews and said unto him, What sign shewest thou unto us, seeing that thou doest these things? 19 Jesus answered and said unto them, Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up. 20 Then said the Jews, Forty and six years was this temple in building, and wilt thou rear it up in three days? 21 But he spake of the temple of his body. 22 When therefore he was risen from the dead, his disciples remembered that he had said this unto them; and they believed the scripture, and the word which Jesus had said.

God Bless

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

Actually, they were using the temple for business of making money due to their own greed and that is why Jesus got upset and responded in a righteous and right way.

You mean like this "rich-man" in Luke 16:19?

http://foru.ms/showthread.php?p=33730992#post33730992

Luke 16:19 A-Man, yet any, was rich and clothed purple/porfuran <4209> and fine-linen/busson <1040> making-merry down to a-day, shiningly/lamprwV <2988>

Reve 18:12 merchandise/cargoes of gold, and of silver, and of precious stone, and of pearl, and of fine linen, and of purple/porfuraV <4209>, and of silk, and of scarlet, and every citron wood............................14 And the fruition of the desire of the soul of thee are lost from thee: and all fat-things and shinings/lampra <2986> are lost/aphlqen <565> from thee. And not-any not no shall be finding them.