Venerate

[Epiphanygirl]

Tradition is good as long as it does not contradict the bible.

Act 17:11
(11) These were more noble than those in Thessalonica, in that they received the word with all readiness of mind, and searched the Scriptures daily, whether those things were so.

You mean OT scriptures right???? there was NO bible back then.....there was NO New Testament yet.....some had letters, not all of them even had copies of them........they were mainly teaching by word.....(Tradition)

Which begs to question.....the Eucharist was taught and accepted from the very beginning....is even in the "Scriptures"..........so what is the excuse for those who do not follow this clear example of scripture and tradition?

 

[kepha31]

1Jo 2:27
(27) But the anointing which ye have received of him abideth in you, and ye need not that any man teach you: but as the same anointing teacheth you of all things, and is truth, and is no lie, and even as it hath taught you, ye shall abide in him.

And

Joh 16:13
(13) Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will show you things to come.

Livingword26, these verses do not give liscence for private interpretation, and 2 Peter 1:20 forbids it.

John 14:16 - Jesus promises that the Holy Spirit would be with the Church forever. The Spirit prevents the teaching of error on faith and morals. It is guaranteed because the guarantee comes from God Himself who cannot lie.

John 14:26 - Jesus promises that the Holy Spirit would teach the Church (the apostles and successors) all things regarding the faith. This means that the Church can teach us the right moral positions on such things as in vitro fertilization, cloning and other issues that are not addressed in the Bible. After all, these issues of morality are necessary for our salvation, and God would not leave such important issues to be decided by us sinners without His divine assistance.

John 16:12 - Jesus had many things to say but the apostles couldn't bear them at that point. This demonstrates that the Church's infallible doctrine develops over time. All public Revelation was completed with the death of the last apostle, but the doctrine of God's Revelation develops as our minds and hearts are able to welcome and understand it. God teaches His children only as much as they can bear, for their own good.

John 16:13 - Jesus promises that the Spirit will "guide" the Church into all truth. Our knowledge of the truth develops as the Spirit guides the Church, and this happens over time.

1 Cor. 2:13 – Paul explains that what the ministers teach is taught, not by human wisdom, but by the Spirit. The ministers are led to interpret and understand the spiritual truths God gives them over time.

Seems to me there are some who even deny having a mother. Let him surely die!

If yo are referring to Mary as the "Queen of heaven" perhaps you could post some scripture.

No, I am not refering to Mary as Queen, but as mother.
But I would be glad to discuss the Queenship of Mary as long as you don't deny the Kingship of Christ.
I would be glad to discuss Mary as the New Eve, and long as you don't deny Christ as the New Adam.
I would be glad to discuss the woman, as long as you don't deny the seed of the woman.
I would be glad to discuss the Daughter of Zion, as long as you don't deny the messianic Son of Man.

It's time the denials you make be pointed out to you, because I don't think you are aware of them.

 

[IamAdopted]

Livingword26, these verses do not give liscence for private interpretation, and 2 Peter 1:20 forbids it.

John 14:16 - Jesus promises that the Holy Spirit would be with the Church forever. The Spirit prevents the teaching of error on faith and morals. It is guaranteed because the guarantee comes from God Himself who cannot lie.

John 14:26 - Jesus promises that the Holy Spirit would teach the Church (the apostles and successors) all things regarding the faith. This means that the Church can teach us the right moral positions on such things as in vitro fertilization, cloning and other issues that are not addressed in the Bible. After all, these issues of morality are necessary for our salvation, and God would not leave such important issues to be decided by us sinners without His divine assistance.

John 16:12 - Jesus had many things to say but the apostles couldn't bear them at that point. This demonstrates that the Church's infallible doctrine develops over time. All public Revelation was completed with the death of the last apostle, but the doctrine of God's Revelation develops as our minds and hearts are able to welcome and understand it. God teaches His children only as much as they can bear, for their own good.

John 16:13 - Jesus promises that the Spirit will "guide" the Church into all truth. Our knowledge of the truth develops as the Spirit guides the Church, and this happens over time.

1 Cor. 2:13 – Paul explains that what the ministers teach is taught, not by human wisdom, but by the Spirit. The ministers are led to interpret and understand the spiritual truths God gives them over time.

Seems to me there are some who even deny having a mother. Let him surely die!


No, I am not refering to Mary as Queen, but as mother.
But I would be glad to discuss the Queenship of Mary as long as you don't deny the Kingship of Christ.
I would be glad to discuss Mary as the New Eve, and long as you don't deny Christ as the New Adam.
I would be glad to discuss the woman, as long as you don't deny the seed of the woman.
I would be glad to discuss the Daughter of Zion, as long as you don't deny the messianic Son of Man.

It's time the denials you make be pointed out to you, because I don't think you are aware of them.

No where in scripture is Mary called the queen of heaven. She was Jesus mother according to the flesh. Christ lives in each and every one of His. We are His temple. . This is why Jesus was the second Adam.
1Co 15:21 For since by a man came death, by a man also came the resurrection of the dead.
1Co 15:22 For as in Adam all die, so also in Christ all will be made alive.

 

[SeraphimSarov]

She was Jesus mother according to the flesh.

This heresy was taken care of in 431 at Ephesus.

 

[Hentenza]

This heresy was taken care of in 431 at Ephesus.

Thats not nice, KB. We do believe that Jesus was fully man and fully God.

 

[SeraphimSarov]

Thats not nice, KB. We do believe that Jesus was fully man and fully God.

Okay... so that being the case, how is Mary not the Mother of God? Are you implying that Jesus' manhood and divinity are separable?

And I don't see what's not nice about what I said.

 

[Hentenza]

Okay... so that being the case, how is Mary not the Mother of God? Are you implying that Jesus' manhood and divinity are separable?

And I don't see what's not nice about what I said.

It is our belief that Mary is the literal mother of the human Jesus and the symbolical mother of God. I am in no way implying that Jesus manhood and divinity are separate. I don't know where you can assume that from my post.

 

[SeraphimSarov]

I am in no way implying that Jesus manhood and divinity are separate. I don't know where you can assume that from my post.

Right here:

It is our belief that Mary is the literal mother of the human Jesus and the symbolical mother of God.

Explain how she can be the literal mother of the "human" Jesus and the "symbolical" [sic] mother of God. You're making Jesus into two different persons. That is outright Nestorianism, heretical since 431 A.D.

 

[livingword26]

Livingword26, these verses do not give liscence for private interpretation, and 2 Peter 1:20 forbids it.

No one said anything about private interperetation, all I said is that the Holy spirit is out teacher.

John 14:16 - Jesus promises that the Holy Spirit would be with the Church forever. The Spirit prevents the teaching of error on faith and morals. It is guaranteed because the guarantee comes from God Himself who cannot lie.

John 14:26 - Jesus promises that the Holy Spirit would teach the Church (the apostles and successors) all things regarding the faith. This means that the Church can teach us the right moral positions on such things as in vitro fertilization, cloning and other issues that are not addressed in the Bible. After all, these issues of morality are necessary for our salvation, and God would not leave such important issues to be decided by us sinners without His divine assistance.

The Church is not just the Apostles and their successors, you added that to the bible. Paul was not a successor, he was Chosen by Jesus personally, as is every real apostle. Anyone who belongs to Jesus Christ is part of the Church and being so, is a partaker of the Holy Ghost. No one is saved without the aid of the Holy Ghost.

John 16:12 - Jesus had many things to say but the apostles couldn't bear them at that point. This demonstrates that the Church's infallible doctrine develops over time. All public Revelation was completed with the death of the last apostle, but the doctrine of God's Revelation develops as our minds and hearts are able to welcome and understand it. God teaches His children only as much as they can bear, for their own good.

Indeed, with our growth in Christ comes new revelation, but if that revelation or doctrine contradicts the bible then it is false and not of God.

John 16:13 - Jesus promises that the Spirit will "guide" the Church into all truth. Our knowledge of the truth develops as the Spirit guides the Church, and this happens over time.

Again, we (those who are Christs) are all members of His Church.

1 Cor. 2:13 – Paul explains that what the ministers teach is taught, not by human wisdom, but by the Spirit. The ministers are led to interpret and understand the spiritual truths God gives them over time.

Yet again, all who are Christs are led into truth.

 

[livingword26]

It is our belief that Mary is the literal mother of the human Jesus and the symbolical mother of God. I am in no way implying that Jesus manhood and divinity are separate. I don't know where you can assume that from my post.

God is without beginning or end, He does not have a mother, real or symbolic. She was the mother of the man Jesus, that is all the bible says. I am sure Jesus loved her very much, and still does, but she has no powers besides those that any other that dies in Christ has.

 

[SeraphimSarov]

GShe was the mother of the man Jesus, that is all the bible says.

Actually, it doesn't. Read Luke 1:43. What does "mother of my God" mean to you? And again, you are coming close to the Nestorian heresy...

 

[livingword26]

No where in scripture is Mary called the queen of heaven.

No, but there is a queen of Heaven mentioned in the bible:

Jer 7:15-20
(15) And I will cast you out of my sight, as I have cast out all your brethren, even the whole seed of Ephraim.
(16) Therefore pray not thou for this people, neither lift up cry nor prayer for them, neither make intercession to me: for I will not hear thee.
(17) Seest thou not what they do in the cities of Judah and in the streets of Jerusalem?
(18) The children gather wood, and the fathers kindle the fire, and the women knead their dough, to make cakes to the queen of heaven, and to pour out drink offerings unto other gods, that they may provoke me to anger.
(19) Do they provoke me to anger? saith the LORD: do they not provoke themselves to the confusion of their own faces?
(20) Therefore thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, mine anger and my fury shall be poured out upon this place, upon man, and upon beast, and upon the trees of the field, and upon the fruit of the ground; and it shall burn, and shall not be quenched.

 

[livingword26]

Actually, it doesn't. Read Luke 1:43. What does "mother of my God" mean to you? And again, you are coming close to the Nestorian heresy...

Actually it says:

Luk 1:43
(43) And whence is this to me, that the mother of my Lord should come to me?

Lord meaning:

G2962
κύριος
kurios
koo'-ree-os
From κῦρος kuros (supremacy); supreme in authority, that is, (as noun) controller; by implication Mr. (as a respectful title): - God, Lord, master, Sir.

 

[SeraphimSarov]

Actually it says:

Luk 1:43
(43) And whence is this to me, that the mother of my Lord should come to me?

Lord meaning:

G2962
κύριος
kurios
koo'-ree-os
From κῦρος kuros (supremacy); supreme in authority, that is, (as noun) controller; by implication Mr. (as a respectful title): - God, Lord, master, Sir.

Very nice. Now tell me why referring to the Lord and referring to God are two different things.

 

[livingword26]

Very nice. Now tell me why referring to the Lord and referring to God are two different things.

"Lord" and "God" are both titles that may or may not be used to describe the actual Creator of our souls. The disciples didn't even really understand that Jesus was God until after His resurection.

John 14:6-9
6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.
7 If ye had known me, ye should have known my Father also: and from henceforth ye know him, and have seen him.
8 Philip saith unto him, Lord, shew us the Father , and it sufficeth us.
9 Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip? he that hath seen me hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou then, Shew us the Father?
KJV

Joh 20:26-28
(26) And after eight days again his disciples were within, and Thomas with them: then came Jesus, the doors being shut, and stood in the midst, and said, Peace, be unto you.
(27) Then saith he to Thomas, Reach hither thy finger, and behold my hands; and reach hither thy hand, and thrust it into my side: and be not faithless, but believing.
(28) And Thomas answered and said unto him, My Lord and my God.

 

[SeraphimSarov]

"Lord" and "God" are both titles that may or may not be used to describe the actual Creator of our souls. The disciples didn't even really understand that Jesus was God until after His resurection.

What the disciples did and did not understand at a particular point in time has no bearing here, and either way, I do not accept the validity of your claim. You refuted yourself with this verse:

(28) And Thomas answered and said unto him, My Lord and my God.

And despite all of this, you still have not told me why your claim that Mary is the mother of Jesus "the man literally" and mother of God "symbolically" is not Nestorianism.

 

[livingword26]

What the disciples did and did not understand at a particular point in time has no bearing here, and either way, I do not accept the validity of your claim. You refuted yourself with this verse:

No, that verse was after the resurrection just like I said.

And despite all of this, you still have not told me why your claim that Mary is the mother of Jesus "the man literally" and mother of God "symbolically" is not Nestorianism.

God used Mary's dna to take part in the creation of Jesus physical body. Jesus is, was and always will be eternal. To say that somehow Mary was the mother of the eternal God, of his Spirt, or soul, makes her eternal also, and she is not.

Rev 21:6
(6) And he said unto me, It is done. I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end. I will give unto him that is athirst of the fountain of the water of life freely.

 

[Hentenza]

Right here:



Explain how she can be the literal mother of the "human" Jesus and the "symbolical" [sic] mother of God. You're making Jesus into two different persons. That is outright Nestorianism, heretical since 431 A.D.

No, Nestorians separate the humanity of Christ from His divinity. I don't believe that. The problem with Mary being the literal mother of God is that it implies that God is not eternal since it needed a mother. Mary cannot be the literal mother of God since she did not give Jesus his divinity. Jesus is God which means that He was already divine. A mere mortal can not give dinity to God since only God is divine.
You have a misunderstanding of what a Nestorian is.

 

[SeraphimSarov]

No, that verse was after the resurrection just like I said.

And my response still is, so what?

God used Mary's dna to take part in the creation of Jesus physical body.

I'd love to see scriptural proof of that claim.

To say that somehow Mary was the mother of the eternal God, of his Spirt, or soul, makes her eternal also, and she is not.

Why are you talking about God having a soul? And who is saying that Mary is the mother of the Holy Spirit? Mary is the mother of God the Son. The fact that you are trying to explain how God could become incarnate speaks volumes - it's a holy mystery. Believing in the power of God to become incarnate of a woman, Mary His mother, is no lack of faith or understanding on my part.

 

[Hentenza]

God is without beginning or end, He does not have a mother, real or symbolic. She was the mother of the man Jesus, that is all the bible says. I am sure Jesus loved her very much, and still does, but she has no powers besides those that any other that dies in Christ has.

Mary gave birth to Jesus both human and divine. Do you not agree with that? Giving birth to Jesus does not give Mary any powers other than being blessed forever.