Vegetarianism

[H2o]

For anyone who wants to know anything about b-12, read this:

http://www.pamrotella.com/health/b12.html

LOL I knew that was a QUACK site when I went to the homepage and it mentioned cures for cancer and HIV. At the bottom of the page her first source listed is Hulda Regehr Clark who can be found here: http://www.quackwatch.org/01QuackeryRelatedTopics/Cancer/clark.html

It says a lot about the site when one the main contributors can be found on quackwatch.org, just for comedy purposes this is some of the stuff the woman says......

All cancers are alike. They are all caused by a parasite. A single parasite! It is the human intestinal fluke. And if you kill this parasite, the cancer stops immediately. The tissue becomes normal again. In order to get cancer, you must have this parasite. . . .

The adult liver fluke -- which she misspells as Faciolopsis buskii -- "stays stuck to our intestine, (or liver, causing cancer, or uterus, causing endometriosis, or thymus, causing AIDS, or kidney, causing Hodgkin's disease)." [4:4] Or the pancreas, causing diabetes; the brain, causing Alzheimer's disease; the prostate (causing prostatitis; or the skin if you have Kaposi's sarcoma [4:35].

The website is a good laugh but its also full of rubbish.

 

[a servant of YHVH]

I don't care what your silly studies say, H2o. I know what the Bible says and God did not give Adam and Eve animals or animal by-products to eat . God isn't a moron. If it was so necessary, He would have told them to eat the stuff. He didn't. There's your evidence that it's perfectly healthy to be a vegan. God is a lot smarter than the people you got those studies from. Also, if you'd like to know anything at all about b12 go read the link I gave in my last post.

Greetings Tami in the Matchless Name of YahShua [that's the name Jesus was called by His mom, dad, brothers, sisters, disciples and others who loved Him] !!

It seems pretty clear to me that H2O isn't going to address the Adam and Eve issue. As soon as he does he and his studies are dead in the water. He is pretty good with straw men arguments. Wonder if he's a farmer? That could explain his infatuation with water and meat.

The fact of the matter is that the so called "vitamin" B12 isn't even a vitamin anyway. [ For that matter there is no such thing as a vitamin but that is another l-o-o-o-o-n-g story. ]

B12 (like every other so called "vitamin") is a created need rather than an actual need.

Ahava b' YahShua
(Love in The SAVIOUR)
Baruch YHVH,

(Bless The LORD)


a servant of YHVH

 

[Tami]

Another thing, meat eaters can have B12 deficiency, too:

http://articles.findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m0820/is_n214/ai_16930507/pg_2

 

[Tami]

H2o, I dare ya to go read "Mad Cowboy Plain Truth From The Cattle Rancher Who Won't Eat Meat by Howard F. Lyman and see just what's in your oh-so-nutritious B12-rich meat.

 

[fallen^sparrow]

I think H2o did address the Adam and Eve issue. You can't just take bits and pieces of the Bible and use whatever best suites your argument.

Genesis 9:1-3

1 Then God blessed Noah and his sons, saying to them, "Be fruitful and increase in number and fill the earth. 2 The fear and dread of you will fall upon all the beasts of the earth and all the birds of the air, upon every creature that moves along the ground, and upon all the fish of the sea; they are given into your hands. 3 Everything that lives and moves will be food for you. Just as I gave you the green plants, I now give you everything.

Please read verse 3 and comment on what you believe it means Tami and servant... I'm curious.

"Wonder if he's a farmer? That could explain his infatuation with water and meat."

That sounds like a derogatory/flaming statement against H2o ... whats wrong with being a farmer (I have been)?

straw^man... aka fallen^sparrow

 

[a servant of YHVH]

"Wonder if he's a farmer? That could explain his infatuation with water and meat."

That sounds like a derogatory/flaming statement against H2o ... whats wrong with being a farmer (I have been)?

straw^man... aka fallen^sparrow

Greetings straw^man... aka fallen^sparrow in the Matchless Name of YahShua [that's the name Jesus was called by His mom, dad, brothers, sisters, disciples and others who loved Him] !!

I made an observation ... neither derogatory nor flaming. I'm a farmer myself (or so I'm told) ... I am not against myself.

Some things are good for flaming, though ... like straw man arguments. They are what is referred to as a logical fallacy and only detract from meaningful conversation.

Ahava b' YahShua
(Love in The SAVIOUR)
Baruch YHVH,

(Bless The LORD)


a servant of YHVH

 

[zoe_uu]

I don't believe the Bible was intended to be a nutrition manual. Arguments for both vegetarianism and meat eating can be found in the Bible. I believe people should do what is right for them and refrain and ridiculing those who choose differently. IMO

 

[fallen^sparrow]

Yep ... that sounds pretty well right on Veggie. Its an individuals choice whether they want to use meat as a food source. Just don't use the Bible as a foundation to base your vegetarian lifestyle on. I'm curious though about the whole "religion" of vegetarianism. Why do so many "veggies" feel the need to try and "convert" others to vegetarianism? If you don't want to eat meat products, then don't. It seems though that whenever I find myself eating beside a vegetarian they feel the need to voice their "concerns" about my food... or need to tell me why they have a tofu paddie in their burger bun. Just curious... anyone ?

fallen^sparrow

 

[zoe_uu]

Why do Christians feel the need to spread the "Good news"? Most would say out of love and concern for their fellow neighbor? I don't know.... I don't try to "convert" anyone to my diet, but I don't mind sharing my reasons for it if someone asks.

 

[Tami]

Why do Christians feel the need to spread the "Good news"? Most would say out of love and concern for their fellow neighbor? I don't know.... I don't try to "convert" anyone to my diet, but I don't mind sharing my reasons for it if someone asks.

I don't feel a "need" to spread the good news. I just get really irritated when people say that meat is necessary for good health. If someone is going to come on here and post a bunch of garbage then I will do my best to post some facts. I'd hate for anyone to be scared away from a vegetarian diet because someone says they'll be malnourished if they don't eat animal products which is just plain nonsense.

 

[zoe_uu]

I don't feel a "need" to spread the good news. I just get really irritated when people say that meat is necessary for good health. If someone is going to come on here and post a bunch of garbage then I will do my best to post some facts. I'd hate for anyone to be scared away from a vegetarian diet because someone says they'll be malnourished if they don't eat animal products which is just plain nonsense.

I agree with you and we should defend our diet when it is attacked by those who don't understand it because it can be a very healthy diet and people should make informed decisions.

 

[Tami]

I think H2o did address the Adam and Eve issue. You can't just take bits and pieces of the Bible and use whatever best suites your argument.

I haven't done that. I've never said that God never gave us animal products to eat. I just said that He didn't give them to Adam and Eve. If they were necessary for good health, He would've told Adam and Eve to eat them in the first place. He wouldn't want them to be unhealthy.

Genesis 9:1-3

1 Then God blessed Noah and his sons, saying to them, "Be fruitful and increase in number and fill the earth. 2 The fear and dread of you will fall upon all the beasts of the earth and all the birds of the air, upon every creature that moves along the ground, and upon all the fish of the sea; they are given into your hands. 3 Everything that lives and moves will be food for you. Just as I gave you the green plants, I now give you everything.

Please read verse 3 and comment on what you believe it means Tami and servant... I'm curious.

It means that God gave said it was ok to eat animals. He didn't say it was to necessary to eat them in order to be healthy.

My opinion is that people can eat whatever they want. If you want to eat steak and eggs, so be it. I just don't like it when people say you have to eat it in order to be healthy. If it was so necessary, God would have had Adam and Eve eating it from the get-go.

 

[fallen^sparrow]

Thats great to hear ... so we all agree that there's nothing wrong with eating animal products... and likewise there's nothing wrong with being vegetarian. Either lifestyle is correct and when correctly persued can result in a long health life (God willing). Does that mean we are dismissed from class and go for lunch? *psst ... whats in YOUR sandwich ???*

fallen^sparrow

 

[H2o]

Greetings Tami in the Matchless Name of YahShua [that's the name Jesus was called by His mom, dad, brothers, sisters, disciples and others who loved Him] !!

It seems pretty clear to me that H2O isn't going to address the Adam and Eve issue. As soon as he does he and his studies are dead in the water. He is pretty good with straw men arguments. Wonder if he's a farmer? That could explain his infatuation with water and meat.

The fact of the matter is that the so called "vitamin" B12 isn't even a vitamin anyway. [ For that matter there is no such thing as a vitamin but that is another l-o-o-o-o-n-g story. ]

B12 (like every other so called "vitamin") is a created need rather than an actual need.

Ahava b' YahShua
(Love in The SAVIOUR)
Baruch YHVH,

(Bless The LORD)


a servant of YHVH

What do you want me to address about the Adam and Eve issue?.......The fact that God said it was ok to eat meat?........Or maybe the fact that Adam and Eve didnt literally exsist?

 

[H2o]

I don't feel a "need" to spread the good news. I just get really irritated when people say that meat is necessary for good health. If someone is going to come on here and post a bunch of garbage then I will do my best to post some facts.

Garbage ........these studies contradict your veiw so they're garbage....hmmm...seems logical

I'd hate for anyone to be scared away from a vegetarian diet because someone says they'll be malnourished if they don't eat animal products which is just plain nonsense.

If they are scared off by the facts that I give, they don't need to be on a vegetarian diet because they obviously haven't researched it.

 

[fallen^sparrow]

Don't get into whether Adam and Eve literally existed H2o... go to the Discussion/Debate forums if you want to get into Apologetics. This is Health and Fitness so lets stick with that. I'm not sure what servant wants you to address concerning the vegetarian/Adam+Eve connect(?) ... lets just wait for servant to clarify what he(r) ment.

fallen^sparrow

 

[H2o]

Several studies have been done documenting B12 deficiencies in vegan children, often with dire consequences (12). Additionally, claims are made in vegan and vegetarian literature that B12 is present in certain algae, tempeh (a fermented soy product) and Brewer's yeast. All of them are false as vitamin B12 is only found in animal foods. Brewer's and nutritional yeasts do not contain B12 naturally; they are always fortified from an outside source.

12. J Mills and others. Cancer-incidence among California Seventh-day Adventists, 1976-1982. Am J Clin Nutr, 1994, 59 (suppl):1136S-42S; see also RL Phillips. Canc Res, 1975, 35:3513-3522 which showed that Seventh Day Adventist physicians had higher colon cancer rates than the general population.

 

[H2o]

Don't get into whether Adam and Eve literally existed H2o... go to the Discussion/Debate forums if you want to get into Apologetics. This is Health and Fitness so lets stick with that. I'm not sure what servant wants you to address concerning the vegetarian/Adam+Eve connect(?) ... lets just wait for servant to clarify what he(r) ment.

fallen^sparrow

Yeah I knew that would probably open a whole new can of worms but Tami gave that as a reason against eating meat and after I gave verses from the Bible that contradicted her a servant of yhva and her both were not satisfied.

 

[zoe_uu]

Reliable Vegan Sources of Vitamin B12

A number of reliable vegan food sources for vitamin B12 are known. One brand of nutritional yeast, Red Star T-6635+, has been tested and shown to contain active vitamin B12. This brand of yeast is often labeled as Vegetarian Support Formula with or without T-6635+ in parentheses following this new name. It is a reliable source of vitamin B12. Nutritional yeast, Saccharomyces cerevisiae, is a food yeast, grown on a molasses solution, which comes as yellow flakes or powder. It has a cheesy taste. Nutritional yeast is different from brewer's yeast or torula yeast. It can often be used by those sensitive to other yeasts.

The RDA (which includes a safety factor) for adults for vitamin B12 is 2.4 micrograms daily [4]. 2.4 micrograms of vitamin B12 are provided by a little less than 1 Tablespoon of Vegetarian Support Formula (Red Star T-6635+) nutritional yeast. A number of the recipes in this book contain nutritional yeast.


Another source of vitamin B12 is fortified cereal. We recommend checking the label of your favorite cereal since manufacturers have been known to stop including vitamin B12.

Other sources of vitamin B12 are vitamin B12-fortified soy milk, vitamin B12-fortified meat analogues (food made from wheat gluten or soybeans to resemble meat, poultry or fish), and vitamin B12 supplements. There are vitamin supplements which do not contain animal products.

Vegans who choose to use a vitamin B12 supplement, either as a single supplement or in a multi-vitamin should use supplements at least several times a week. Even though a supplement may contain many times the recommended level of vitamin B12, when vitamin B12 intake is high, not as much appears to be absorbed. This means in order to meet your needs, you should take the vitamin several times a week.

Tempeh, miso, and sea vegetables often are reported to have large amounts of vitamin B12. These products, however, are not reliable sources of the vita-min because the amount of vitamin B12 present depends on the type of processing the food undergoes [1, 5]. The standard method for measuring vitamin B12 in foods measures both active and inactive forms of vitamin B12. The inactive form (also called analogues) actually interferes with normal vita-min B12 absorption and metabolism [1, 6]. Fermented foods and sea vegetables may contain more inactive than active vitamin B12.

Some vitamin B12 appears to be found in organically grown plants, but in extremely small amounts. According to one study [7,8], more than 23 cups of organically grown spinach would have to be eaten every day in order to meet the adult RDA for vitamin B12. Produce cannot be depended on as a reliable vitamin B12 source because the level of vitamin B12 in plants varies widely depending on the type of plant and the soil in which it is grown. Also, vitamin B12 analogues may be found in soil and absorbed by plants. If these analogues are present, they could either interfere with the plants uptake of vitamin B12 or with the usefulness of the plant's vitamin B12 for humans. References

1. Herbert V. Vitamin B12: Plant sources, requirements, and assay. Am J Clin Nutr 1988; 48: 852-858.

2. Albert MJ, Mathan VI, Baker SJ. Vitamin B12 synthesis by human small intestinal bacteria. Nature 1980; 283: 781-782.


3. Callender ST, Spray GH. Latent pernicious anemia. Br J Haematol 1962; 8: 230-240.

4. Institute of Medicine, Food and Nutrition Board: Dietary Reference Intakes for Thiamin, Riboflavin, Niacin, Vitamin B-6, Folate, Vitamin B-12, Pantothenic Acid, Biotin, and Choline. Washington, DC: National Academy Press, 1998.

5. Specker BL, Miller D, Norman EJ, et al. Increased urinary methylmalonic acid excretion in breast-fed infants of vegetarian mothers and identification of an acceptable dietary source of vitamin B12. Am J Clin Nutr 1987; 47: 89-92.

6. Kondo H, Binder MJ, Kohhouse JF, et al. Presence and formation of cobal-amin analogues in multivitamin-mineral pills. J Clin Invest 1982; 70: 889-898.

7. Mozafar A. Is there vitamin B12 in plants or not? A plant nutritionist's view. Vegetarian Nutrition: An International Journal 1997; 1/2: 50-52.
8. Mozafar A. Enrichment of some B-vitamin in plants with application of organic fertilizers. Plant and Soil 1994; 167: 305-11.

http://www.vrg.org/nutrition/b12.htm#reliable

 

[fallen^sparrow]

So you just confirmed what H2o said Veggie ... that unless a vegetarian consumes B12 "fortified" foods... in all likelyhood they would suffer from a B12 deficiency. Correct ?

fallen^sparrow