Vegetarianism

[Tuffguy]

I don't see the point in saying you want to be a vegetarian. Isn't the point of altering your diet to become healthy? I eat what my body needs to do what i want it to do. My diet isn't perfect but i sure do try.

 

[Beastt]

I don't see the point in saying you want to be a vegetarian. Isn't the point of altering your diet to become healthy? I eat what my body needs to do what i want it to do. My diet isn't perfect but i sure do try.

There are many different reasons for changing to a vegan or vegetarian diet. Some do it for health, some for the animals and some for religious reasons. Since the religious argument is subjective, we can only deal factually with the health and environmental reasons.

With the studies that have been done, the fact that it promotes better health is almost beyond arguing. (Though a few still try.) The impact of a meat-based diet on the environment is not only hugely damaging, that damage is quite well documented. So regardless of one's personal reasons, going vegetarian is one of life's few win/win choices.

 

[Tami]

Here's some stuff on soy:

http://my.webmd.com/content/article/29/1728_67482

http://my.webmd.com/content/article/80/96416.htm

http://www.parentwatch.com/content/display.asp?c=c_0236

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=PubMed&list_uids=10189040&dopt=Abstract

http://www.healthcastle.com/benefitsofsoy_heart.shtml

http://www.veggiepatch.com/contentmgr/showdetails.php/id/591

I just found some stuff that says soy may be bad for your health which totally contradicts the links I just posted above. Personally, I don't know what to believe about soy anymore but will stop consuming it until I know for sure that it's safe. I'd hate for someone to read the links I gave earlier and come to the conclusion that soy is perfectly safe to consume when it may not be and get health problems from it so I thought I'd share this other info I found so people can make their own informed decisions. I'm not saying that soy is bad. I'm just saying that I no longer feel confident that it's totally safe and would rather avoid it for the time being just to be on the safe side. I wouldn't want to tell you to do something that I wouldn't do so here's the link and you can make your own decision: http://www.google.com/custom?cof=AH%3Acenter%3BAWFID%3A5cdb2968a482194d%3B&domains=www.mercola.com&sitesearch=www.mercola.com&q=soy

I'm sure that rice and nut milks are still perfectly safe to drink (as long as you aren't allergic to nuts), especially if you make your own, so even though soy milk might not be a good thing to drink, there are still good alternatives to cow's milk out there.

 

[DoveChapman]

Of course I expected you, Joe, and I welcome you and your opinions. So let's start with where vegetarians get their protein from.

Soybean sprouts-54%... Spinach-49%... Watercress-46%... Kale-45%... Broccoli-45%... Brussels sprouts-44%... Mungbean sprouts-43%... Soybean curd-43%(tofu)... Turnip greens-43%... Collards-43%... Cauliflower-40%... Mustard greens-39%... Mushrooms-38%... Soy flour-35%... Soybeans-35%... Chinese cabbage-34%... Parsley-34%... Lettuce-34%... Broad beans-32%... Wheat germ - 31%... Green peas-30%... Lentils-29%... Zucchini-28%... Split peas-28%... Kidney beans-26%... Green beans-26%... Navy beans-26%... Cucumbers-24%... Dandelion greens-24%... Garbanzo beans-23%... Green pepper-22%... Artichokes-22%... Cabbage-22%... Celery-21%... Eggplant-21%... Pumpkin seeds-21%... Rye-20%... Tomatoes-18%... Peanuts-18%... Wheat, hard red-17%... Sunflower seeds-17%... Onions-16%... Wild rice-16%... Lemons-16%... Beets-15%... Buckwheat-15%... Oatmeal-15%... Walnuts, black-13%... Sesame seeds-13%... Pumpkin-12%... Cashews-12%... Millet-12%... Almonds-12%... Potatoes-11%... Barley-11%... Honeydew melon-10%... Cantelope-9%... Stawberry-8%... Orange-8%... Filberts-8%... Yams-8%... Blackberry-8%... Cherry-8%... Apricot-8%... Grape-8%... Watermelon-8%... Brown Rice-8%... Tangerine-7%... Papaya-6%... Peach-6%... Sweet potatoes-6%

[Data from "Nutritive Value of American Foods in Common Units". U.S.D.A. Agriculture Handbook No. 456]

Twelve-million four hundred thousand Americans now consider themselves vegetarians. Show me one suffering from kwashiokor.

Note: Human breast milk provides 5% of calories from protein.

----------------

Human Protein Requirements, according to...

...reports in the American Journal of Nutrition: 2½% of total calories

...The Food and Nutrition Board: 4½% of total calories

...The World Health Organization: 4½% of total calories

...The Food and Nutrition Board of the U.S.D.A.: 6% of total calories

...The National Research Council: 8% of total calories

-----------

"Vegetarians always ask about getting enough protein. But I don't know any nutrition expert that can plan a diet of natural foods resulting in a protein deficiency. so long as you're not deficient in calories." -- Nathan Pritikin, Nutritionist, Founder - Pritikin Longevity Centers

I believe I mentioned the thoughts on the necessity of combining foods for the "best" protein on another thread. The conclusion is, and has been for a while that this is a myth. It was based on studies done in the 1940s using rats as test subjects. Studies using humans have shown that combining foods to obtain the best proteins is completely unnecessary and fruitless. The newer studies have also shown that, for humans, many plant-based proteins are superior to meat-based proteins. If you have any doubts, read both the old and newer versions of Diet for a Small Planet wherein the author herself, (Frances Moore Lappe), takes credit for creating the myth that there is an advantage to combining proteins.

Others have also commented on this misinformation:

"Unfortunately, the book (Diet for a Small Planet), is one of the most misleading documents in the last few years because everybody now thinks food balancing is essential. (The book) gives the impression that vegetable proteins don't have sufficient percentages of amino acids."
Pritikin, Nathan, quote Vegetarian Times, issue 43, page 22

Speaking as someone raised vegetarian, who later began to do more research and as a result, changed to a vegan diet; I will confirm your conclusion that it can make one's life harder. You get teased in school, cafeteria lunches are out and as an adult, many restaurants not only don't have any vegetarian or vegan dishes but many wouldn't know what could and couldn't be included in one. Think about what it might be like to take a girl out who asks to go to a steak house.

As far as the health benefits go, I'll bow to your suggestion that you haven't done much research on the subject. Without doing a bit of digging, one isn't likely to find the data which shows what the protein industry would rather not have you see.

Heart attack is the leading cause of death in the United States. If you eat a normal, American diet, your chances of suffering a heart attack are better than 50%. Vegetarians have a 15% risk while vegans have a 4% chance of a heart attack. As strokes are caused by the same basic mechanism as heart attack, stroke statistics follow suit.

Vegetarians exhibit only 40% of the cancer rate of those on a meat-based diet.

A partial list of deseases and disorders less prevalent in vegans/vegetarians, includes; Strokes, Heart disease, Kidney stones, Breast cancer, Prostate cancer, Pancreatic cancer, Cervical cancer, Stomach cancer, Diabetes, Hypoglycemia, Peptic ulcers, Constipation, Hiatal hernias, Diverticulosis, Gallstones, Hypertension, Salmonellosis, Trichinosis, Osteoporosis, Colon cancer, Ovarian cancer, Endometrial cancer, Kidney disease, Hemorrhoids, Obesity, Asthma, and Irritable colon syndrome.

"Vegetarians have the best diet. They have the lowest rates of coronary disease of any group in the country. They have a fraction of our heart attack rate and they have only 40% of our cancer rate and on average, outlive others by about six years." -- Dr. William Castelli, Director: Framingham Heart Study

------------
Now, to try to answer Tibby's question as best I can. As stated above, the diet can make one the subject of much ridicule. Even in adult circles there are many who can't seem to handle the idea of abstaining from meat without poking fun. Some become down-right angry, but I've never understood why. I guess they feel it's a statement against their life-style which causes them to feel defensive.

Vegetarians tend to carry less weight than non-vegetarians. This is generally a good thing but if you're already predisposed toward being lean, people will often assume that your stature and lack of bulk mean that you're weak and unhealthy. These are typical, but extremely inaccurate stereotypes. Several studies actually showed that vegetarians tend to be stronger, particularly in the areas of endurance and recovery. Social acceptance during the later years of schooling often rely heavily on being successful in sports. While leaner bodied people excel at track and field, the more popular sports such as football rely to some degree on carrying more bulk.

Vegans, not vegetarians, do have the concern about a vitamin B12 deficiency. Vitamin B12 is absolutely essential to maintaining health for certain nerve tissues and any damage resulting from a B12 deficiency is permanent. Years ago a vegan could remove themselves from concern about retaining sufficient stores of vitamin B12. Many people grew at least some of their own food or traded at markets which sold produce from the local community. The produce wasn't scoured under high-pressure washers and to be blunt, often carried a tiny smidgeon of dirt right through the preparation process to the table. It wasn't uncommon for someone to pluck an edible root from the ground, rinse it in irrigation water and consume it in the field. Vitamin B12 is produced naturally by bacteria, algea and fungi in the soil. It takes only about 1 to 2 micrograms of vitamin B12 per day to retain health and the liver can store enough for 2 years or more. But that tiny bit that the body does need is extremely important. Since animals are less clean than humans and because they retain a little vitamin B12 in their tissues, when you consume parts of their bodies, or their mammary or ovarian excretions, you consume a bit of vitamin B12.

Most of the concerns revolve around just being different. Socializing is a bit less carefree. When invited to a barbeque, people will often tell you that they're going to have, "plenty of salad". They get the idea that vegetarians eat little else which is hardly realistic. Even when friends are at their most generous and gracious, you end up labeled and somewhat outcast for the diet choices you've made.

Perhaps the worst part is that not being part of the meat-producing chain can make one acutely aware of the cruelty concealed within meat production. The pain, suffering and torment is enough to make one want to break down and weep at times. Humans display a compassion that is missing in predatory animals. We teach our young to deny this or to focus it only on other people but, as most anyone has seen, children show a natural compassion for animals. This is not the case with other meat-eating animals. Vegetarians are more likely to retain this natural compassion and it can be a difficult weight to bear, especially amongst a society so steeped in the idea that animals must die for every single meal.

I think it not unfair to suggest that the reason you've had so much trouble finding information against vegetarianism, isn't due to the search engines. It's more likely due to the fact that, aside from the psycho-social issues, there is little negative about it.

I highly agree with you on many of your points so this replay is to you as well as to the person(which the information is for) who was looking for anti- vegetarian material. I have been a vegetarian for many, many years and have even switched to vegan diets on many ocassions. Many of my health problems were reversed as a result of this and all medications were stopped completely. As for not getting the nutrition or vitamins you need from a vegetarian diet(that was mentioned), that is a false statement. There are vitamins for vegetarians that can give you those needed B vitamins and any others that your body needs. You will not miss anything nutritionally but instead gain what God originally intended for us to have. Not the over processed, preservative, artificial stuff that we have today. Your point regarding barbecue dilemmas was also well taken and in fact I have within my files many recipes of vegetarian "meat" which contains wheat, gluten, grains etc and NO meat.. you can make meatless "Ribs, sausages, roasts , burgers etc.." I miss absolutely nothing about meat and I am MUCH healthier. In fact when I have eaten something that contains lard or any other meat byproduct without my knowledge I become ill, my body doesn't want it. Eventually in all cases someone had acknowledged the meat product was indeed in it. So, it wasn't in my head. The hormones and other products that are injected in animals alone and are found in meat products can contribute to cancers and other diseases. I also agree that there exists cruelty to animals that is being performed in order to get the meat. Animals feel pain and I cannot understand how anyone can inflict such practices on a helpless creature. God istructed Adam to care for the animals of this world. Sin entered in and then so did murder and killing of God's creations. I doubt Adam and Eve ate meat in the garden of Eden. Sin and the fallen word contributed to this practice. God specified in the bible that meats were indeed unclean. Later on in the bible he gave permission to eat certain meats and some of the ones that are eaten today are still considered "unclean" by God's standards found there. I myself value every living thing and it is my choice not to be a part of inflicting unnecessary pain on any living being. I have read so many horror stories of how badly the animals are treated, and they made me cry. What did they do to deserve such pain, fear and agony. The ways in which they are kept and treated and then finally killed doesn't seem to me to be the way we are to treat any of God's creations. I chose the road to health in keeping God's temple (me) healthy. If eating meat is so healthy, Why are there so many problems with the animals contracting diseases and such- and people are contracting them as well , such as a result. Alzheimer, cancers, heart attacks, strokes, obesity, and much more are linked to meat eating diets that eliminate the natural foods. Instead of finding information that is anti-vegetarian why don't you also research pro vegetarian information. You need both sides of the story before you should make a final decision. You owe it to yourself to see how the animals are treated as well, why turn a blind eye to it. If you are going to advocate any side you should do the research. Just maybe you will find yourself on this side of the fence if your aren't already. I do know that everyone is entitled to their own opinions and choices, my son eats meat and loves animals and my daughter does not eat meat. So, I am not condemning meat eaters. Thus, vegetarians should also not be condemned either. It is a choice we each have to make and respect even if we do not like it. But make sure you have the facts before you make that decision!

 

[pdp27]

I was a vegan for almost 8 months which I learned from Hallelujah Acres which teaches 80% raw with lots of carrot and other vegetable juices. It was a health decision rather than a moral one, but I didn't care for it. I lost a little bit of weight, but mostly I just obsessed about food.

I stumbled across Weston A Price foundation and that changed my entire way of thinking. They promote clean meats raised on pasture exclusively, fermented foods, soaked grains, and lots of healthly fats from good sources and that does include saturated.

I tend to believe that you could greatly improve your diet just by cutting out white flour and excessive sugar. I greatly enjoy my diet these days which is full of whole food, including lots of fats, meats, cheeses, raw milk, and lots of vita-mixed fruits and veggies.

Tibby(or whoever) I am not allowed to post links yet, but if you are interested, I have links to four sites that have articles that are against vegetarianism, so feel free to PM me.

Paul

 

[zoe_uu]

General question pointed at no one is particular: Would it be possible to have a vegetarian/vegan support thread where we can talk about issues without being ridiculed?

 

[a servant of YHVH]

Greetings in the Matchless Name of YahShua [that's the name Jesus was called by His mom, dad, brothers, sisters, disciples and others who loved Him] !!

"Yea, and all that will live godly in Messiah YahShua shall suffer persecution." II Timothy 3:12

Words of comfort, Veggie 24?

Ahava b' YahShua
(Love in The SAVIOUR)
Baruch YHVH,

(Bless The LORD)


a servant of YHVH

 

[H2o]

There are many different reasons for changing to a vegan or vegetarian diet. Some do it for health, some for the animals and some for religious reasons. Since the religious argument is subjective, we can only deal factually with the health and environmental reasons.

Meat consumption contributes to famine and depletes the Earth's natural resources.

Some have argued that cows and sheep require pasturage that could be better used to raise grains to feed starving millions in Third World countries. Additionally, claims are made that raising livestock requires more water than raising plant foods. Both arguments are illogical and simplistic.
The pasturage argument ignores the fact that a large portion of our Earth's dry land is unsuited to cultivation. The open range and desert and mountainous areas yield their fruits to grazing animals (1).


Unfortunately, the bulk of commercial livestock are not range fed, but stall fed. They do not ingest grasses and shrubs (like they should), but are fed an unnatural array of grains and soybeans. It is true that these foods could be fed to humans. The argument here, then, is not that eating meat depletes the Earth's resources, but that commercial farming methods do. Such methods also subject livestock to deplorable living conditions where infections, antibiotics, steroids and synthetic hormones are common. These all lead to an unhealthy animal and, by extension, an unhealthy food product. Organically raised livestock, then, is a healthier and more humane choice (see myth #15 for more on this topic).


As for the claims that raising livestock requires more water than raising plant foods, water that livestock drink would be drunk by them anyway, even if they were not being raised for food. Additionally, the urine of grazing animals, which mostly comprises water, is rich in nitrogen which helps replenish the soil. Much of the water used in commercial livestock farming, however, is used up in growing the various grains and soybeans fed to the animals. If a concerted effort were made to return to the ecologically sound "mixed farm," (described below), then such huge expenditures of water would be unnecessary.


A far more serious threat to humanity, and the Earth, is the monoculture of grains and legumes, advocated by some vegetarian groups, which depletes the soil and requires the heavy use of artificial fertilisers and dangerous pesticides; pesticides that must first be tested on animals for safety (2). The solution? Astute writers on this dilemma have pointed out:


The educated consumer and the enlightened farmer together can bring about a return of the mixed farm, where cultivation of fruits, vegetables and grains is
combined with the raising of livestock and fowl in a manner that is efficient, economical and environmentally friendly. For example, chickens running free
in garden areas eat insect pests, while providing high-quality eggs; sheep grazing in orchards obviate the need for herbicides; and cows grazing in
woodlands and other marginal areas provide rich, pure milk, making these lands economically viable for the farmer. It is not animal cultivation that leads to hunger
and famine, but unwise agricultural practices and monopolistic distribution systems. (3)


The "mixed farm" is also healthier for the soil, which will yield more crops if managed according to traditional guidelines. British organic farmer and dairyman Mark Purdey has accurately pointed out that a crop field on a mixed farm will yield up to five harvests a year, while a "mono-cropped" one will only yield one or two (4). Which farm is producing more food for the world's peoples? Purdey well sums up the ecological horrors of "battery farming" by saying:


Our agricultural establishments could do very well to outlaw the business- besotted farmers running intensive livestock units, battery systems and beef-burger bureaucracies; with all their wastages, deplorable cruelty, anti-ozone slurry systems; drug/chemical induced immunotoxicity resulting in B.S.E. [see myth # 13] amd salmoella, rain forest eradication, etc. Our future direction must strike the happy, healthy medium of mixed farms, resurrecting the old traditional extensive system as a basic framework, then bolstering up productivity to present day demands by incorporating a more updated application of biological science into farming systems. (5)

1. Sally Fallon, Mary Enig and Patricia Connolly, Nourishing Traditions, ProMotion Publishing, USA, 1995, p. 5.
2. Purdey, Mark, "The Vegan Ecological Wasteland," Journal of the Price-Pottenger Nutrition Foundation [hereafter referred to as Jnl of PPNF], Winter 1998; "Are Organophosphate Pesticides Involved in the Causation of Bovine Spongiform Encephalopathy (BSE)? Jnl of Nutritional Medicine 4:43-82, 1994.
3. Fallon, et al, op. cit., p. 6
4. Purdey, op cit.
5. Ibid

 

[H2o]

Vegetarian Diet Increases Alzheimers Risk Elderly people with low blood levels of vitamin B-12 and folate may face an increased risk of developing Alzheimer's disease.


Vitamin B-12 plays an important role in maintaining nerve cells, and some research has linked low blood levels of the vitamin to Alzheimer's and mental decline. Few studies have looked at whether there is such a connection between Alzheimer's and folate, a B vitamin key to the production and maintenance of body cells.


In a study of 370 men and women aged 75 and older, investigators found that those with low levels of either vitamin were twice as likely as those with normal levels to develop Alzheimer's over a 3-year period. Surprisingly, the link was even stronger among study participants who performed well on mental tests at the start of the study.


The reason for the link is unclear, but low blood levels of B-12 and folate can lead to elevations in the amino acid homocysteine, which may in turn damage nerve cells, the authors note.


Vitamin B-12 is found in animal products, including

• meat
• fish
• eggs
• milk

Vegetarians are frequently deficient in vitamin B-12.

Folate occurs naturally in foods such as

• leafy green vegetables
• dried beans and peas
• citrus fruits

many cereals are fortified with folic acid, the synthetic form of folate.


Alzheimer's is the most common form of dementia, affecting an estimated 4 million Americans. The exact cause remains elusive, but scientists believe genetics and environmental factors conspire to trigger the onset of the disease.


Neurology May 8, 2001;56:1188-1194

 

[H2o]

Vegetarian Diet In Pregnancy Linked To Birth Defect Mothers who ate a vegetarian diet during pregnancy had a five-time greater risk of delivering a boy with hypospadias, a birth defect of the penis. The research team suggests that phytoestrogens, hormone-like compounds found in soy, may be responsible for the link.

Interestingly, the researchers also found that mothers who took iron supplements and those who had influenza in the first 3 months of pregnancy also had a higher risk of having a baby boy with hypospadias. The authors suggest that more research is needed to see if any of the associations found in the study actually cause the birth defect.

It is important to note that there is biological evidence that vegetarians have a greater exposure to phytoestrogens and thus a causal link is biologically feasible.

Hypospadias is a birth defect where the opening of the penis is found on the underside of the penis rather than at the tip. It is a common congenital defect, affecting about 1 in 300 newborn males. The condition requires surgery to correct it, where the foreskin is used to repair the problem. Untreated, it can interfere with urination and sexual function.

The investigators asked mothers to fill out questionnaires during pregnancy regarding obstetric history, lifestyle, and dietary practices. Of 7,928 boys born to mothers participating in the study, 51 cases of hypospadias were identified.

Mothers with a vegetarian diet in the first half of pregnancy had a 4.99 times greater risk of having a boy with hypospadias compared with mothers who included meat in their diets, the researchers report. In addition, mothers who took iron supplements had double the normal risk of having a boy with hypospadias, and influenza during the first 3 months of pregnancy increased the risk of by just over three times.

BJU International January 2000;85:107-113

 

[Tami]

Oh my goodness, if meat was so important to the human diet, then why on earth didn't God tell Adam and Eve to eat the stuff. Is God just stupid or what? By the way, plenty of foods that vegetarians eat are fortified with B-12.

 

[H2o]

Oh my goodness, if meat was so important to the human diet, then why on earth didn't God tell Adam and Eve to eat the stuff. Is God just stupid or what? By the way, plenty of foods that vegetarians eat are fortified with B-12.

Myth #2: Vitamin B12 can be obtained from plant sources.

Of all the myths, this is perhaps the most dangerous. While lacto and lacto-ovo vegetarians have sources of vitamin B12 in their diets (from dairy products and eggs), vegans (total vegetarians) do not.

Vegans who do not supplement their diet with vitamin B12 will eventually get anemia (a potentially fatal condition) as well as severe nervous and digestive system damage; most, if not all, vegans have impaired B12 metabolism and every study of vegan groups has demonstrated low vitamin B12 concentrations in the majority of individuals (11).

Several studies have been done documenting B12 deficiencies in vegan children, often with dire consequences (12). Additionally, claims are made in vegan and vegetarian literature that B12 is present in certain algae, tempeh (a fermented soy product) and Brewer's yeast. All of them are false as vitamin B12 is only found in animal foods. Brewer's and nutritional yeasts do not contain B12 naturally; they are always fortified from an outside source.

There is not real B12 in plant sources but B12 analogues -- they are similar to true B12, but not exactly the same and because of this they are not bioavailable (13). It should be noted here that these B12 analogues can impair absorption of true vitamin B12 in the body due to competitive absorption, placing vegans and vegetarians who consume lots of soy, algae, and yeast at a greater risk for a deficiency (14).

Some vegetarian authorities claim that B12 is produced by certain fermenting bacteria in the lower intestines. This may be true, but it is in a form unusable by the body. B12 requires intrinsic factor from the stomach for proper absorption in the ileum. Since the bacterial product does not have intrinsic factor bound to it, it cannot be absorbed (15).

It is true that Hindu vegans living in certain parts of India do not suffer from vitamin B12 deficiency. This has led some to conclude that plant foods do provide this vitamin. This conclusion, however, is erroneous as many small insects, their feces, eggs, larvae and/or residue, are left on the plant foods these people consume, due to non-use of pesticides and inefficient cleaning methods.

This is how these people obtain their vitamin B12. This contention is borne out by the fact that when vegan Indian Hindus later migrated to England, they came down with megaloblastic anaemia within a few years. In England, the food supply is cleaner, and insect residues are completely removed from plant foods (16).

The only reliable and absorbable sources of vitamin B12 are animal products, especially organ meats and eggs (17). Though present in lesser amounts than meat and eggs, dairy products do contain B12. Vegans, therefore, should consider adding dairy products into their diets. If dairy cannot be tolerated, eggs, preferably from free-run hens, are a virtual necessity.

That vitamin B12 can only be obtained from animal foods is one of the strongest arguments against veganism being a "natural" way of human eating. Today, vegans can avoid anemia by taking supplemental vitamins or fortified foods. If those same people had lived just a few decades ago, when these products were unavailable, they would have died.

 

[Tami]

Myth #2: Vitamin B12 can be obtained from plant sources.

Of all the myths, this is perhaps the most dangerous. While lacto and lacto-ovo vegetarians have sources of vitamin B12 in their diets (from dairy products and eggs), vegans (total vegetarians) do not.

That vitamin B12 can only be obtained from animal foods is one of the strongest arguments against veganism being a "natural" way of human eating. Today, vegans can avoid anemia by taking supplemental vitamins or fortified foods. If those same people had lived just a few decades ago, when these products were unavailable, they would have died.

Vegans do eat stuff that contains B-12. It's in fortified cereals, and in the different varieties of vegan milks (rice, soy, and nut milks). I'm sure there are other foods that are fortified with it as well. Don't worry. Vegans aren't going to die of B-12 deficiency. Also, you never answered my question. Is God just stupid or what because He didn't give Adam and Eve the animals or animal byproducts to eat for food. Go look up in Genesis what He told them to eat.

 

[Tami]

For anyone who wants to know anything about b-12, read this:

http://www.pamrotella.com/health/b12.html

 

[H2o]

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Vegans do eat stuff that contains B-12. It's in fortified cereals, and in the different varieties of vegan milks (rice, soy, and nut milks). I'm sure there are other foods that are fortified with it as well. Don't worry. Vegans aren't going to die of B-12 deficiency. Also, you never answered my question. Is God just stupid or what because He didn't give Adam and Eve the animals or animal byproducts to eat for food. Go look up in Genesis what He told them to eat.

taking vitamin pills is this his answer to the inadequacies of vegetarian and vegan diets? How did our ancestors survive before vitamin pills existed? By eating adequate animal foods, that’s how. Instead of recommending the natural solution to the B12 problem, your advised to forsake healthful foods and pop pills -- an unnatural solution, indeed.
Generally, in most parts of the world, whenever cereal-based diets were first adopted as a staple food replacing the primarily animal-based diets of hunter-gatherers, there was a characteristic reduction in stature, a reduction in life span, an increase in infant mortality, an increased incidence of infectious disease, an increase in diseases of nutritional deficiencies (i.e., iron deficiency, pellagra), and an increase in the number of dental caries and enamel defects. --- J Brasco. Low Grain and Carbohydrate Diets Treat Hypoglycemia, Heart Disease, Diabetes Cancer and Nearly ALL Chronic Illness. Posted here and accessed on January 4, 2002. See also L. Cordain. Cereal grains:humanity’s double-edged sword. World Rev Nutr Diet, 1999, 84:20-73.

Human dietary requirements are genetically programmed (28). Since we evolved as meat-eaters, we should continue being meat-eaters today. Research shows quite clearly that as humans abandoned animal foods and fats in favor of more “vegetables, fruits, whole grains, and beans,” our health deteriorated. Skeletal remains of European populations reveal a slow, steady increase in tooth decay from the Neolithic period when agriculture first began until today, where it has skyrocketed (29). --------28. L Cavalli-Sforza. “Human evolution and nutrition,” in DN Walcher and N Kretchmer, eds., Food, Nutrition, and Evolution: Food as an Environmental Factor in the Genesis of Human Variability. Masson, NY, 1981, 1-7; (b) J Yudkin. “Archaeology and the nutritionist,” in PJ Ucko and GW Dimbley, eds., The Domestication and Exploitation of Plants and Animals. Aldine, Chicago, 1969, 547-52.
29. C Wells. Bones, Bodies, and Disease: Evidence of Disease and Abnormality in Early Man, New York, 1964; (b) GH Pelto and PJ Pelto. The Cultural Dimensions of the Human Adventure. New York, 1979, 292-301.

 

[H2o]

Michael Janson, M.D., is past-president of both the American College for Advancement in Medicine and the American Preventive Medical Association. He founded one of the first complementary/alternative medical practices in New England in 1976. He has lectured widely on the subjects of nutrition, complementary/alternative medicine, vitamin supplements, and chelation therapy. He has been on a mostly vegetarian diet since 1975.---- I mentioned the "small amount of organic eggs, low-fat organic dairy, and wild fish" in my own diet and my recommendations. I did not by any means intend to suggest that I recommend or eat a lot of these foods, and the scientific data only suggest that you need a small amount of these to provide adequate vitamin B12 to cover basic human needs

And that comes from a M.D. that supports a mostly vegitarian diet

 

[shteffi]

I didn't take the time to read the entire discussion as it is rather late here, but I thought I'd give my point of view. I am a "semitarian." I don't know who came up with the term, but it's wonderfully useful. Basically, it means that I am a vegetarian but not so strict as to pull the pepperoni off my pizza or pass up the occasional Western Bacon Cheeseburger. I am not a semitarian because it's "healthier" or for religious reasons. I am not a semitarian because the way the majority of meat is produced is cruel. I am a semitarian because I've bitten into one too many pieces of meat that still had blood in the viens. I cannot stand the taste of blood when it's not my own [like if I accidentally bite my tongue]. Just the thought of meat makes me want to vomit.

Just needed to add to the list of reasons people become vegetarians: the nastiness of bloody flesh and the thought of having to eat it

I wish I didn't get ill at the sight of a rare steak, but that's just me.

Shteffi

 

[H2o]

Studies have shown that vegetarian women suffer from greater menstrual irregularity than evenly matched omnivorous women. At the Milton S. Hershey Medical Center, only 4.9% of premenopausal omnivorous women suffered from menstrual irregularity, compared to a whopping 26.5% in vegetarian women (2). The probability of menstrual regularity was associated positively with protein and cholesterol intake and negatively with dietary fiber and magnesium intake. Such results are consistent with the hypothesis that premenopausal vegetarian women have circulating estrogen concentrations (3). Therefore, these women may also have decreased reproductive capacity (2). Another study at the Hershey Medical Center revealed that the frequency of menstrual irregularity was significantly higher in a lacto-ovo vegetarian group of women than in a matched group of nonvegetarian women (3).

Furthermore, since studies have shown that vegetarians have higher homocysteine levels than non-vegetarians (4) and since homocysteine is a known cause of birth defects (5), it is certainly conceivable that vegetarian diets can and do predispose women to greater risks of miscarriages. Lastly, it is also known that vitamin B12 deficiency causes reproductive failure (6). Since vegans, in general, have impaired B12 metabolism and inadequate B12 intake (7), it is certainly likely that vegan women are more at risk for miscarriages.
2. A. Pedersen and others. Menstrual difficulties due to vegetarian and non-vegetarian diets. Am J Clin Nutr, 1991, 53:879-85.

3. T Llooyd and others. Urinary hormonal concentrations and spinal bone densities of premenopausal vegetarian and non-vegetarian women. Am J Clin Nutr, 1991, 54:1005-10.

4. (a) Herrmann, Schorr, Purschwitz, Rassoul, Richter. Total homocysteine, vitamin B (12), and total antioxidant status in vegetarians. Clin Chem, 2001, 47(6):1094-10; (b) D Mazzano and others. Cardiovascular risk factors in vegetarians. Normalization of hyperhomocysteinemia with vitamin B(12) and reduction of platelet aggregation with n-3 fatty acids. Thromb Res 2000 Nov 100:153-60.

5. Rosenquist TH, Ratashak SA, Selhub J. Homocysteine induces congenital defects of the heart and neural tube: effect of folic acid. Proc Natl Acad Sci U S A 1996 Dec 24;93(26):15227-32; (b) Langman LJ, Cole DE. Homocysteine. Crit Rev Clin Lab Sci 1999 Aug;36(4):365-406 .

6. J Reprod Med, 2001, 46:209-212. Summary posted at http://www.mercola.com/2001/may/12/vitamin_b12.htm

7. AL Rauma and others. Vitamin B-12 status of long-term adherents of a strict uncooked vegan diet (“living food diet”) is compromised. J Nutr, 1995, 125:2511-5; (b) MG Crane and others. Vitamin B12 studies in total vegetarians (vegans). J Nutr Med, 1994, 4:419-30; c) I Chanarin and others. Megaloblastic anaemia in a vegetarian Hindu community. Lancet, 1985, Nov 2:1168-72 ; (d) M Donaldson. Vitamin B12 and the Hallelujah Diet, posted here; (e) MS Donaldson. Metabolic vitamin B12 status on a mostly raw vegan diet with follow-up using tablets, nutritional yeast, or probiotic supplements. Ann Nutr Metab, 2000, 44(5-6):229-234 .

 

[Tami]

I don't care what your silly studies say, H2o. I know what the Bible says and God did not give Adam and Eve animals or animal by-products to eat . God isn't a moron. If it was so necessary, He would have told them to eat the stuff. He didn't. There's your evidence that it's perfectly healthy to be a vegan. God is a lot smarter than the people you got those studies from. Also, if you'd like to know anything at all about b12 go read the link I gave in my last post.

 

[H2o]

I don't care what your silly studies say, H2o. I know what the Bible says and God did not give Adam and Eve animals or animal by-products to eat . God isn't a moron. If it was so necessary, He would have told them to eat the stuff. He didn't. There's your evidence that it's perfectly healthy to be a vegan. God is a lot smarter than the people you got those studies from. Also, if you'd like to know anything at all about b12 go read the link I gave in my last post.

I think your first sentence says it all, I think you should read Genesis 9 1-9 :
1 Then God blessed Noah and his sons, saying to them, "Be fruitful and increase in number and fill the earth. 2 The fear and dread of you will fall upon all the beasts of the earth and all the birds of the air, upon every creature that moves along the ground, and upon all the fish of the sea; they are given into your hands. 3 Everything that lives and moves will be food for you. Just as I gave you the green plants, I now give you everything. 4 "But you must not eat meat that has its lifeblood still in it. 5 And for your lifeblood I will surely demand an accounting. I will demand an accounting from every animal. And from each man, too, I will demand an accounting for the life of his fellow man. 6 "Whoever sheds the blood of man, by man shall his blood be shed; for in the image of God has God made man. 7 As for you, be fruitful and increase in number; multiply on the earth and increase upon it." 8 Then God said to Noah and to his sons with him: 9 "I now establish my covenant with you and with your descendants after you