Vegan

[Brookelowe454]

I ate a purely vegan diet for a number of years, but now I eat a vegan diet 6 days out of 7 because I've let it slide for pot lucks. Cheese was the hardest thing for me to go without. I've tried cheese substitutes like nutritional yeast and found them to be disgusting. I think it's better just to be honest with the fact that I was not eating cheese or meat than to pretend I still was through substitutes. Plus soy used in meat substitutes is not particularly healthy either.

Nutritional yeast can be used for cheese, though it is mainly just for nutritional value, b12, hence the name. Also, I was a vegetarian for a long time and I RELIED on cheese and could not live without it. Daiya cheese, heidi ho cream cheese (it's called cultured cheese), cashew cheese, and vegan gourmet cheeses are so realistic that I could not tell the difference. I don't know what you were eating... Also, that's not "being honest" that's your opinion. It's sad to hear that you talk about eating meat again. Always sad to lose a fellow vegan. Also, I beg to differ on the soy. You should read the rest of the forum, and check out the China Study... You wouldn't be saying that.

 

[Soyeong]

Nutritional yeast can be used for cheese, though it is mainly just for nutritional value, b12, hence the name. Also, I was a vegetarian for a long time and I RELIED on cheese and could not live without it. Daiya cheese, heidi ho cream cheese (it's called cultured cheese), cashew cheese, and vegan gourmet cheeses are so realistic that I could not tell the difference. I don't know what you were eating... Also, that's not "being honest" that's your opinion. It's sad to hear that you talk about eating meat again. Always sad to lose a fellow vegan. Also, I beg to differ on the soy. You should read the rest of the forum, and check out the China Study... You wouldn't be saying that.

A lot of what we choose to eat is just what we are used to. For instance, someone who has a lot of salt in their diet craves salt, but someone who is not used to eating a lot of salt doesn't miss it. I eventually just got used to not eating cheese no longer miss it. There are plenty of good vegan recipes that don't require cheese substitutes. A lot of times what you are substituting something with is not any healthier than the thing itself, so just because someone eats a vegan diet doesn't mean they are making healthy food choices. I've looked that the China study before. Not all forms of soy are healthy, particularly not the form that's used in meat substitutes.

 

[Brookelowe454]

A lot of what we choose to eat is just what we are used to. For instance, someone who has a lot of salt in their diet craves salt, but someone who is not used to eating a lot of salt doesn't miss it. I eventually just got used to not eating cheese no longer miss it. There are plenty of good vegan recipes that don't require cheese substitutes. A lot of times what you are substituting something with is not any healthier than the thing itself, so just because someone eats a vegan diet doesn't mean they are making healthy food choices. I've looked that the China study before. Not all forms of soy are healthy, particularly not the form that's used in meat substitutes.

I didn't say that vegan substitutes were a healthy and substantial diet alone, I believe that they should be taken in normal to little amounts, as with meat. Although I must say, ANYTHING vegan is a lot healthier than the meat version(substitute wise). Even soy. Soy has been shown to "cause some problems" but not NEARLY as much as meat does. This is my main point. Just saying, meat is only a good diet if it didn't kill anything, so I guess meat is out of the question. *sigh* but people don't listen.

 

[Soyeong]

I didn't suggest that you thought vegan substitutes were a health and substantial diet alone, just that the a substitute itself is not always healthier than the thing itself. For instance, I would not eat margarine. If soy has been shown to cause some problems, but not as many as eating meat, then it is healthier to go without either. I find substitutes to be unnecessary. I changed my diet because of health concerns, not because it is wrong to kill animals for food.

 

[Brookelowe454]

I didn't suggest that you thought vegan substitutes were a health and substantial diet alone, just that the a substitute itself is not always healthier than the thing itself. For instance, I would not eat margarine. If soy has been shown to cause some problems, but not as many as eating meat, then it is healthier to go without either. I find substitutes to be unnecessary. I changed my diet because of health concerns, not because it is wrong to kill animals for food.

That is true, but substitutes are mainly meant for meat eaters who are transitioning to a vegan lifestyle. Also, you're not vegan if you change your diet for health concerns. You eat a vegan diet, so I no longer understand why you're even on this forum.... It is wrong, but sadly, many people like you don't understand anything besides religion. Good luck (I hope I didn't offend you, but that comment hurts me that you would think of yourself as better than an animal, which btw, you are an animal. No different.)

 

[Ilovegod888]

I didn't suggest that you thought vegan substitutes were a health and substantial diet alone, just that the a substitute itself is not always healthier than the thing itself. For instance, I would not eat margarine. If soy has been shown to cause some problems, but not as many as eating meat, then it is healthier to go without either. I find substitutes to be unnecessary. I changed my diet because of health concerns, not because it is wrong to kill animals for food.

So you are saying that your measly hunger is more important than an animal's LIFE. Wow, didn't know someone could be so heartless even when they cut out most meat anyways. This is a VEGAN forum, it's not here for you to pretend to be vegan. Secondly, you're not even vegan if you eat animals. I'm sorry if I offended you, I just felt so heartbroken when you said you don't even care. I love God's creations, why don't you?

 

[Soyeong]

So you are saying that your measly hunger is more important than an animal's LIFE. Wow, didn't know someone could be so heartless even when they cut out most meat anyways. This is a VEGAN forum, it's not here for you to pretend to be vegan. Secondly, you're not even vegan if you eat animals. I'm sorry if I offended you, I just felt so heartbroken when you said you don't even care. I love God's creations, why don't you?

A vegan is defined by their diet, not be their reasons for having that diet. Generally, there are two main reasons to be a vegan: either you think it is wrong to use animals for food and/or you think it is a healthier diet. I do not think that it is wrong to use animals for food, so my reasons for being a vegan were because of health concerns. I realize that my current diet of eating meat one meal a week is not strictly vegan, and I've been up front about that, so I am not at all offended that I'm not considered to be a vegan. There was a period of my life when I did eat strictly vegan, so I can speak in that regard, but I still think it is healthier to eat a vegan diet 6 days out of 7, even if it is not as healthy as 7 days out of 7. And in any case, this is a Community Hangout forum, not a Vegan forum.

In the Bible, God gave us kosher animals to eat as food, in Genesis 18:8, Abraham served the Angel of the Lord a calf with curds and milk, some offerings involved eating meat at the Lord's Table, and with feasts like Passover, God instructed them to eat lamb. So from an Biblical and ethical standpoint, I do not see anything wrong with using animals for food, though I do find factory farming to be abominable. Also, if you want to look at the cost of animal life, then there are many animals that are killed when plowing a field or from pesticides in order to grow plant-based food, so a diet that includes some meat actually results in less loss of animal life.

 

[Soyeong]

That is true, but substitutes are mainly meant for meat eaters who are transitioning to a vegan lifestyle. Also, you're not vegan if you change your diet for health concerns. You eat a vegan diet, so I no longer understand why you're even on this forum.... It is wrong, but sadly, many people like you don't understand anything besides religion. Good luck (I hope I didn't offend you, but that comment hurts me that you would think of yourself as better than an animal, which btw, you are an animal. No different.)

And it is those who are transitioning to a vegan lifestyle that use substitutes that seem to me are pretending to still be eating meat. If you need to shape tofu into a turkey for Thanksgiving, then there is pretending going on. Vegan refers to the diet, not the reasons for the diet and I have eaten a strictly vegan diet for a period of my life, so I can speak in that regard. Furthermore, this is a Community Hangout forum, so anyone in the community can hang out here. I'm sorry, I did not mean to hurt you by my comments. There are many animals that eat other animals, so if I am no different from other animals, then there should be nothing wrong with that.

 

[Brookelowe454]

And it is those who are transitioning to a vegan lifestyle that use substitutes that seem to me are pretending to still be eating meat. If you need to shape tofu into a turkey for Thanksgiving, then there is pretending going on. Vegan refers to the diet, not the reasons for the diet and I have eaten a strictly vegan diet for a period of my life, so I can speak in that regard. Furthermore, this is a Community Hangout forum, so anyone in the community can hang out here. I'm sorry, I did not mean to hurt you by my comments. There are many animals that eat other animals, so if I am no different from other animals, then there should be nothing wrong with that.

You're right, I don't think people should shape a tofu into turkey for Thanksgiving, but that wasn't my point, was it? My point was that you don't miss anything on a vegan diet. Veganism, according to vegansociety.com is...

"Although the vegan diet was defined early on in the Society's beginnings in 1944, it was as late 1949 before Leslie J Cross pointed out that the society lacked a definition of veganism. He suggested “[t]he principle of the emancipation of animals from exploitation by man”. This is later clarified as “to seek an end to the use of animals by man for food, commodities, work, hunting, vivisection, and by all other uses involving exploitation of animal life by man”.

When the society became a registered charity in 1979, the Memorandum and Articles of Association updated the definition of “veganism” as:

"A philosophy and way of living which seeks to exclude—as far as is possible and practicable—all forms of exploitation of, and cruelty to, animals for food, clothing or any other purpose; and by extension, promotes the development and use of animal-free alternatives for the benefit of humans, animals and the environment. In dietary terms it denotes the practice of dispensing with all products derived wholly or partly from animals."

So, you are only on a vegan diet, you are not vegan. Yes, we are animals, but we are animals that rely more than just on instincts. We are animals that make choices, otherwise veganism wouldn't even exist. If you can choose from right and wrong, that makes you more than "just following the food chain," and besides, there is substantial evidence that we are herbivores, despite what your bible says.

 

[Ilovegod888]

A vegan is defined by their diet, not be their reasons for having that diet. Generally, there are two main reasons to be a vegan: either you think it is wrong to use animals for food and/or you think it is a healthier diet. I do not think that it is wrong to use animals for food, so my reasons for being a vegan were because of health concerns. I realize that my current diet of eating meat one meal a week is not strictly vegan, and I've been up front about that, so I am not at all offended that I'm not considered to be a vegan. There was a period of my life when I did eat strictly vegan, so I can speak in that regard, but I still think it is healthier to eat a vegan diet 6 days out of 7, even if it is not as healthy as 7 days out of 7. And in any case, this is a Community Hangout forum, not a Vegan forum.

In the Bible, God gave us kosher animals to eat as food, in Genesis 18:8, Abraham served the Angel of the Lord a calf with curds and milk, some offerings involved eating meat at the Lord's Table, and with feasts like Passover, God instructed them to eat lamb. So from an Biblical and ethical standpoint, I do not see anything wrong with using animals for food, though I do find factory farming to be abominable. Also, if you want to look at the cost of animal life, then there are many animals that are killed when plowing a field or from pesticides in order to grow plant-based food, so a diet that includes some meat actually results in less loss of animal life.

There is one reason why people are called a "vegan". They don't eat animal products and they are against it. This is my forum, not for people who defend eating an animal's flesh. Read this latest post, https://budgetberries.wordpress.com/. You will realize the truth, I am trying to help you. Meat eaters destroy this Earth, destroy their health, and kill "kosher animals". Why don't you look from a different point of view and stop using your religion as an excuse.

 

[Soyeong]

You're right, I don't think people should shape a tofu into turkey for Thanksgiving, but that wasn't my point, was it? My point was that you don't miss anything on a vegan diet. Veganism, according to vegansociety.com is...

"Although the vegan diet was defined early on in the Society's beginnings in 1944, it was as late 1949 before Leslie J Cross pointed out that the society lacked a definition of veganism. He suggested “[t]he principle of the emancipation of animals from exploitation by man”. This is later clarified as “to seek an end to the use of animals by man for food, commodities, work, hunting, vivisection, and by all other uses involving exploitation of animal life by man”.

When the society became a registered charity in 1979, the Memorandum and Articles of Association updated the definition of “veganism” as:

"A philosophy and way of living which seeks to exclude—as far as is possible and practicable—all forms of exploitation of, and cruelty to, animals for food, clothing or any other purpose; and by extension, promotes the development and use of animal-free alternatives for the benefit of humans, animals and the environment. In dietary terms it denotes the practice of dispensing with all products derived wholly or partly from animals."

So, you are only on a vegan diet, you are not vegan. Yes, we are animals, but we are animals that rely more than just on instincts. We are animals that make choices, otherwise veganism wouldn't even exist. If you can choose from right and wrong, that makes you more than "just following the food chain," and besides, there is substantial evidence that we are herbivores, despite what your bible says.

I stand corrected about veganism. We have the ability to choose right from wrong, so the argument that we are no different from other animals falls flat on its face. Plants are also living beings, but you don't consistently argue that we shouldn't eat plants. The Bible does not say that our bodies are biologically set up to to eat meat, but that we are permitted to do so.

 

[Brookelowe454]

I stand corrected about veganism. We have the ability to choose right from wrong, so the argument that we are no different from other animals falls flat on its face. Plants are also living beings, but you don't consistently argue that we shouldn't eat plants. The Bible does not say that our bodies are biologically set up to to eat meat, but that we are permitted to do so.

We are still animals, and we still do have instincts, but we have the ability to choose right from wrong, as do some other animals. New studies are showing how smart certain animals are like dolphins, chimps, cows, and pigs. It doesn't "fall flat on its face" because we are animals, but we are animals that can choose. You are not superior, that's called speciesism, and you don't want to believe in that... Even if your bible says you can eat meat, does not mean it's right, because you don't have facts or evidence. In fact, your entire life is probably based on beliefs if you only use the bible to make decisions... Just saying, that won't get you anywhere. Not trying to offend you, just trying to get you to see the other side. Once again, I don't believe in the bible, so that statement means nothing to me.

 

[Soyeong]

We are still animals, and we still do have instincts, but we have the ability to choose right from wrong, as do some other animals. New studies are showing how smart certain animals are like dolphins, chimps, cows, and pigs. It doesn't "fall flat on its face" because we are animals, but we are animals that can choose. You are not superior, that's called speciesism, and you don't want to believe in that... Even if your bible says you can eat meat, does not mean it's right, because you don't have facts or evidence. In fact, your entire life is probably based on beliefs if you only use the bible to make decisions... Just saying, that won't get you anywhere. Not trying to offend you, just trying to get you to see the other side. Once again, I don't believe in the bible, so that statement means nothing to me.

I'm here to discuss ideas, not to be offended or cause offense. You believe it is wrong to use animals for food and believe the opposite, so we're both making decisions based on our beliefs, along with everyone else. I could be wrong about whether God gave us animals to use for food, but if God did, then that means it is right. And I do have fact and evidence, which is why I hold the belief that He did. You think that we are superior than plants, which is also speciesism, so just because it's speciesism doesn't mean it's not true. How do you know that it is wrong to eat smart animals? If studies had shown that animals were actually pretty dumb, would that make a difference?

 

[Soyeong]

There is one reason why people are called a "vegan". They don't eat animal products and they are against it. This is my forum, not for people who defend eating an animal's flesh. Read this latest post, https://budgetberries.wordpress.com/. You will realize the truth, I am trying to help you. Meat eaters destroy this Earth, destroy their health, and kill "kosher animals". Why don't you look from a different point of view and stop using your religion as an excuse.

To start with, cherry picking does not refer to looking through the Bible to see what it says on the topic, but rather it refers to the practice of sifting through data and picking out things that support your view, while ignoring things that don't. Also, just because someone disagrees with your view on veganism doesn't mean that they are close-minded and more than you being close-minded for disagreeing with my view. God had given them kosher animals to use for food, so it doesn't make sense to say that God was upset because they were doing something that He had allowed them to do. The issue was more about their attitude and the condition of their hearts. I appealed to the Bible because you identify as Baptist, so I assumed that we agree about its truth.

 

[Brookelowe454]

I'm here to discuss ideas, not to be offended or cause offense. You believe it is wrong to use animals for food and believe the opposite, so we're both making decisions based on our beliefs, along with everyone else. I could be wrong about whether God gave us animals to use for food, but if God did, then that means it is right. And I do have fact and evidence, which is why I hold the belief that He did. You think that we are superior than plants, which is also speciesism, so just because it's speciesism doesn't mean it's not true. How do you know that it is wrong to eat smart animals? If studies had shown that animals were actually pretty dumb, would that make a difference?

You do not have fact or evidence, a bible is not fact... it is belief. Religion is belief. We are superior to plants, I believe that in the Garden of Eden, all of the plants were given to us, not animals, and this is how God intended for us to live. Because humans sinned, that's why we ate animals. It is wrong to eat any animal, not just smart animals. If animals were dumb, smart, or smarter than us, I would still never eat them, because it's moronic and ignorant to ingest the creations that God created. I have facts on health and the environment. That is the main reason why you should eat a vegan diet, not because it is good for you, which, I feel bad, because you eat meat anyways, which kind of cancels out your carbon footprint and your health.

 

[nebulaJP]

As a matter of interest, do vegans sometimes think "Gosh I'd love a nice juicy steak!", or do they simply not have the craving any more?

I don't have cravings for steak but sometimes I get the feeling that I would like to pet a cow. (And then I plan to visit a farm-animal sanctuary but don't follow through.)

Also, I agree with this meme:

 

[Soyeong]

You do not have fact or evidence, a bible is not fact... it is belief. Religion is belief. We are superior to plants, I believe that in the Garden of Eden, all of the plants were given to us, not animals, and this is how God intended for us to live. Because humans sinned, that's why we ate animals. It is wrong to eat any animal, not just smart animals. If animals were dumb, smart, or smarter than us, I would still never eat them, because it's moronic and ignorant to ingest the creations that God created. I have facts on health and the environment. That is the main reason why you should eat a vegan diet, not because it is good for you, which, I feel bad, because you eat meat anyways, which kind of cancels out your carbon footprint and your health.

Why is it that you don't believe the Bible, but you refer to the Garden of Eden as factual? You have beliefs about health and the environment that you think are factual, just as I have beliefs about the Bible that I think are factual. God didn't give us animals to eat until after the Flood, so that doesn't fit with your theory. If the intelligence of animals isn't relevant to whether it is ok to eat them, then why did you bring it up? Plants are also creations of God, and in fact everything that you ingest is composed of atoms that God created, so why is something being a creation of God relevant to whether it is right or wrong to ingest it?

 

[Ilovegod888]

To start with, cherry picking does not refer to looking through the Bible to see what it says on the topic, but rather it refers to the practice of sifting through data and picking out things that support your view, while ignoring things that don't. Also, just because someone disagrees with your view on veganism doesn't mean that they are close-minded and more than you being close-minded for disagreeing with my view. God had given them kosher animals to use for food, so it doesn't make sense to say that God was upset because they were doing something that He had allowed them to do. The issue was more about their attitude and the condition of their hearts. I appealed to the Bible because you identify as Baptist, so I assumed that we agree about its truth.

Yeah, I read the Bible but in the Garden of Eden, they were vegan. If God intended for them to eat meat, he would tell them but since they weren't sinners... God also wants animals to be vegan. That the lion and lamb will live in harmony, they wouldn't sin anymore. That implies that eating meat is a sin. Also, does that somehow justify your actions? Does eating meat make you a good person? No. Like I said before, take a step back and realize what you are eating. It doesn't matter if God gave us animals (for companions), he wants us to be healthy. You can die from meat, eggs, milk, e.t.c. He doesn't want you to live a short life (we have instincts like those of animals), he wants you to be happy not having your insides exposed because you need to unplug your arteries. It doesn't matter if you eat very little meat/ animal products, you still have a risk. Take it into consideration and then you can reply with all your religious excuses for slitting open an animal's neck. I was a meat eater before I went vegan, I reviewed everything that meat eaters would attack me for. So I was willing to look at the other side and give it a fair chance. I realized the truth in my soul and I wanted to share it. Thank you for your response.

 

[Brookelowe454]

Why is it that you don't believe the Bible, but you refer to the Garden of Eden as factual? You have beliefs about health and the environment that you think are factual, just as I have beliefs about the Bible that I think are factual. God didn't give us animals to eat until after the Flood, so that doesn't fit with your theory. If the intelligence of animals isn't relevant to whether it is ok to eat them, then why did you bring it up? Plants are also creations of God, and in fact everything that you ingest is composed of atoms that God created, so why is something being a creation of God relevant to whether it is right or wrong to ingest it?

I didn't think the Garden of Eden was factual, I was trying to relate to you because YOU believe in the Bible. Scientific evidence IS factual, if you don't believe in science, than I'm sorry, but that's just ignorant. You are calling your personal religious beliefs factual, while I am using evidence that has already been proved. The fact is, God created animals to feel pain, and why would he do that if we were meant to eat them? Why did he create us to have compassion and care for animals if we eat them? Also, you don't even need to eat meat, the truth is, you just wouldn't want to be bothered to check ingredients. Go ahead and continue to be part of a mass murder, and go ahead and continue to care more about people than animals, because your God says so..... Also, I don't even believe in half of the things you say. Why? Because they aren't facts. They are beliefs. Thanks for reading this comment, but I don't think there is anything left to say. If you want to continue eating other animals, purely for your own benefit, fine, but just saying, your religion will never justify those actions.

 

[Soyeong]

Yeah, I read the Bible but in the Garden of Eden, they were vegan. If God intended for them to eat meat, he would tell them but since they weren't sinners... God also wants animals to be vegan. That the lion and lamb will live in harmony, they wouldn't sin anymore. That implies that eating meat is a sin. Also, does that somehow justify your actions? Does eating meat make you a good person? No. Like I said before, take a step back and realize what you are eating. It doesn't matter if God gave us animals (for companions), he wants us to be healthy. You can die from meat, eggs, milk, e.t.c. He doesn't want you to live a short life (we have instincts like those of animals), he wants you to be happy not having your insides exposed because you need to unplug your arteries. It doesn't matter if you eat very little meat/ animal products, you still have a risk. Take it into consideration and then you can reply with all your religious excuses for slitting open an animal's neck. I was a meat eater before I went vegan, I reviewed everything that meat eaters would attack me for. So I was willing to look at the other side and give it a fair chance. I realized the truth in my soul and I wanted to share it. Thank you for your response.

This is cherry picking, where you are picking out facts that you think imply eating meat is a sin, but you ignore the fact that God directly gave us meat to eat and gave us commands to eat meat, so it can't be a sin, but you claim that I'm making excuses. Sin is disobedience to God so refusing to obey God's command to eat meat is what would be a sin. Even during the Millennium when animals will be living in peace with each other, we will be continuing to make offerings, some of which will involve obeying God's command to eat meat.