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Kristen Johnson

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Good for you. I've been a vegan for 9 years and a Christian for most of my life. I think the ideal was in the Garden when they didn't eat meat. Also, we have to seriously consider that factory farms did NOT exist in Jesus' time. All I had to do was read a book (and then several more!) about what they do to animals and it took me off meat and animal products for life! Also, the environmental consequences of eating meat is horrific and God gave us this Earth to take care of while we are here.

Twitter: @tugoffaith
 
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FredVB

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I think it's great and I admire such who are vegan from many years ago, and those that went right to it, even without becoming vegetarian first. And that is the right way, the issues there are and our own health call for being plant-based and anything less isn't as adequate for it. But people might become vegetarian first with being ignorant of that, as I did for several years, and as I did they may well hear how being vegan is dealing with these things fully, and change toward that then. Some take more time changing than others, but that there is the change is the desirable thing. For the animal issues there are, with involving billions and billions of animals every year with the huge amount of abuse in horrible conditions, our own health, and the critical issues to the world right now, there should be a shift to veganism right away, and with its growth it might happen, as it is really needed. And godliness that should be had really can include this change, and with knowledge about it that is needed in godliness too.

It is distinct from vegetarianism, for what is needed, while yet vegetarianism started in western society with those coming to it having what we now call a vegan diet.

As such, those of us who as believers have come to a vegan diet, or vegan living, while coming into discussion with others about this as good as that is to do, as with discussions here in these forums, need to be in communication more with each other in a place where we aren't dealing with those who think otherwise, whether from ignorance or from irrational hatred of the call for veganism, whether with mistaken ideas or with misinformation contrary to veganism with the facts there are for it. A forum for our own communication would be great, but in these forums of CF there is this thread for it, until if ever, with communication enough for it, we could have a forum,
http://www.christianforums.com/threads/vegan-thread-while-forum-would-be-wanted.7943257/, there is otherwise the forum there being shared, for Vegetarianism, Gluten-free, and Paleo diets. I don't use Twitter so much as I do Facebook, and I know there is such communication for it in these other places, but I come here to CF just about every day, and see the communication for it here is important, and it is needed here more than it is present here. More need to come to being vegan, wherever they are to see communication for it.
 
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Gregory Thompson

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I think it's nice some people can be vegan, because of the basis of compassion. Downside is the pride of feeling better than other people, and the condescending attitude I sometimes encounter.
 
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FredVB

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I think it's nice some people can be vegan, because of the basis of compassion. Downside is the pride of feeling better than other people, and the condescending attitude I sometimes encounter.

Veganism is not a misplaced compassion, having it understood this way can have it dismissed as does happen. A shift to veganism really needs to happen, the destructiveness there is to the world makes the relief from the demand on animals for use, all the resources, land, and water, and the effects on climate really needed, which can be effected only with such a vegan shift. Why vegan and not just plant-based? Those motivated for the animals are the ones who last with this changed way of living, for one thing. There is more than food from use of animals, for another reason to be vegan. And truly, veganism is not misplaced compassion. The brutality in unimaginably huge numbers with being kept for use and slaughter for human demand of the animal products is incompatible with the unacceptance we have to animal abuse otherwise, which cannot be accepted. The Creator does care, as all creation is groaning until the deliverance that will come from God. Scripture passages show this, such as Proverbs 12:10, and it shouldn't be simply dismissed, as this really does apply to the use of animals from our demand.

As for pride of feeling better than others, that issue is a problem more generally in many people, and there should be ways to educate and raise people without that coming up. A condescending attitude shouldn't happen, but the actual message for veganism should not be misunderstood for that, as it it is likely being. It is the issue with Christianity too. There is a worse way we were living. Fortunately we come to change, for what is shown, and we are changed from that. We want others to know about it, who don't yet. This is needed. This is involved without condescension and any feeling they are better than others for that, generally. It shouldn't be dismissed for that misunderstanding, the issues that are real need recognition and our appropriate change, in any case.

All this is said without having even come to speaking about the healthiness there would be for any with a plant-based way of eating without processed foods as well. I may not be asked about that, but it would be effective against cancers, heart attacks and strokes from clogging of arteries, diabetes type 2, and many, many more problematic health issues, which are all diet related, and come to large numbers in the population from the Standard American Diet. Even longevity is affected, and with the change there is more energy, lasting longer in many things, and more enduring youthfulness.

I can't leave off without information being available for how such change is really really possible, without difficulty and without not having great things to eat still, that will not make such change a sacrifice.
www.forksoverknives.com
 
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pastor marty

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Veganism is not a misplaced compassion, having it understood this way can have it dismissed as does happen. A shift to veganism really needs to happen, the destructiveness there is to the world makes the relief from the demand on animals for use, all the resources, land, and water, and the effects on climate really needed, which can be effected only with such a vegan shift. Why vegan and not just plant-based? Those motivated for the animals are the ones who last with this changed way of living, for one thing. There is more than food from use of animals, for another reason to be vegan. And truly, veganism is not misplaced compassion. The brutality in unimaginably huge numbers with being kept for use and slaughter for human demand of the animal products is incompatible with the unacceptance we have to animal abuse otherwise, which cannot be accepted. The Creator does care, as all creation is groaning until the deliverance that will come from God. Scripture passages show this, such as Proverbs 12:10, and it shouldn't be simply dismissed, as this really does apply to the use of animals from our demand.

As for pride of feeling better than others, that issue is a problem more generally in many people, and there should be ways to educate and raise people without that coming up. A condescending attitude shouldn't happen, but the actual message for veganism should not be misunderstood for that, as it it is likely being. It is the issue with Christianity too. There is a worse way we were living. Fortunately we come to change, for what is shown, and we are changed from that. We want others to know about it, who don't yet. This is needed. This is involved without condescension and any feeling they are better than others for that, generally. It shouldn't be dismissed for that misunderstanding, the issues that are real need recognition and our appropriate change, in any case.

All this is said without having even come to speaking about the healthiness there would be for any with a plant-based way of eating without processed foods as well. I may not be asked about that, but it would be effective against cancers, heart attacks and strokes from clogging of arteries, diabetes type 2, and many, many more problematic health issues, which are all diet related, and come to large numbers in the population from the Standard American Diet. Even longevity is affected, and with the change there is more energy, lasting longer in many things, and more enduring youthfulness.

I can't leave off without information being available for how such change is really really possible, without difficulty and without not having great things to eat still, that will not make such change a sacrifice.
www.forksoverknives.com
Good for you. I've been a vegan for 9 years and a Christian for most of my life. I think the ideal was in the Garden when they didn't eat meat. Also, we have to seriously consider that factory farms did NOT exist in Jesus' time. All I had to do was read a book (and then several more!) about what they do to animals and it took me off meat and animal products for life! Also, the environmental consequences of eating meat is horrific and God gave us this Earth to take care of while we are here.

Twitter: @tugoffaith
Plants R alive 2. The disciples were fishermen&sheepguys.Eat it or not;giving thanks & that's it ! 2 the guy who criticized Budda 4 leaving his family; hey lardhead, didn't JESUS say,"unless UR willin'2 leave yer folks behind,you ain't worthy of HIM ???"So it's OK 4 Christians but not Buddists ?? Do I detect the call o'the PUFFED-UP W/PRIDE HIPPOCRITE BIRD ??? SO QUICK 2 JUDGE,SO SLOW 2 UNDERSTAND.When our LORD was in Egypt think He mighta heard a monk or 2. Mighty similar thoughts & ideas.The Buddist refugees I teach Eng.@2nd. lang. are the easiest converts.It's like;"GOD has a SON ? How great;& HE came along 600yrs. after Budda.WOW;sign me up !!!
 
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FredVB

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Michael Collum said:
I think it's nice some people can be vegan, because of the basis of compassion. Downside is the pride of feeling better than other people, and the condescending attitude I sometimes encounter.

FredVB said:
Veganism is not a misplaced compassion, having it understood this way can have it dismissed as does happen. A shift to veganism really needs to happen, the destructiveness there is to the world makes the relief from the demand on animals for use, all the resources, land, and water, and the effects on climate really needed, which can be effected only with such a vegan shift. Why vegan and not just plant-based? Those motivated for the animals are the ones who last with this changed way of living, for one thing. There is more than food from use of animals, for another reason to be vegan. And truly, veganism is not misplaced compassion. The brutality in unimaginably huge numbers with being kept for use and slaughter for human demand of the animal products is incompatible with the unacceptance we have to animal abuse otherwise, which cannot be accepted. The Creator does care, as all creation is groaning until the deliverance that will come from God. Scripture passages show this, such as Proverbs 12:10, and it shouldn't be simply dismissed, as this really does apply to the use of animals from our demand.
As for pride of feeling better than others, that issue is a problem more generally in many people, and there should be ways to educate and raise people without that coming up. A condescending attitude shouldn't happen, but the actual message for veganism should not be misunderstood for that, as it it is likely being. It is the issue with Christianity too. There is a worse way we were living. Fortunately we come to change, for what is shown, and we are changed from that. We want others to know about it, who don't yet.

Kristen Johnson said:
Good for you. I've been a vegan for 9 years and a Christian for most of my life. I think the ideal was in the Garden when they didn't eat meat. Also, we have to seriously consider that factory farms did NOT exist in Jesus' time. All I had to do was read a book (and then several more!) about what they do to animals and it took me off meat and animal products for life! Also, the environmental consequences of eating meat is horrific and God gave us this Earth to take care of while we are here.
Twitter: @tugoffaith

pastor marty said:
Plants R alive 2. The disciples were fishermen&sheepguys.Eat it or not;giving thanks & that's it ! 2 the guy who criticized Budda 4 leaving his family; hey lardhead, didn't JESUS say,"unless UR willin'2 leave yer folks behind,you ain't worthy of HIM ???"So it's OK 4 Christians but not Buddists ?? Do I detect the call o'the PUFFED-UP W/PRIDE HIPPOCRITE BIRD ??? SO QUICK 2 JUDGE,SO SLOW 2 UNDERSTAND.When our LORD was in Egypt think He mighta heard a monk or 2. Mighty similar thoughts & ideas.The Buddist refugees I teach Eng.@2nd. lang. are the easiest converts.It's like;"GOD has a SON ? How great;& HE came along 600yrs. after Budda.WOW;sign me up !!!

Seriously these flawed arguments are all that can be mustered against the good points for changing to vegan eating.

Plants are alive too...

This ignores the issues of environment and sustainability, and the possible heathy way available, for vegan eating, for assuming living things have equal right to still be left to live without consideration if they have nervous systems with a central part corresponding to a brain, and behavior with that, showing they are sentient beings. This is a flawed argument to use.

The disciples were fishermen and sheep guys...

A few were fishermen, there was a political zealot, and a tax collector, among others, I don't know about the "sheep guys" claimed. But they all changed, none were said to continue with those things after the start of the church at Pentecost after Christ's resurrection. Relevant to this there are early documents from close to that time that several apostles, and James the brother of the Lord, ate no animal products, and there was early Christian tradition around that time that Christ did not eat meat. So this argument being used is too weak.

Eat it or not, giving thanks is enough...

This is loose interpretation of a certain statement found in scriptures. It carries the idea that a permission given means no matter what, when that was certainly not said in passages showing any permission given. Christ never was speaking to go contrary to commandments from God that are found in the old testament of the Bible. What he said was to be considered clean was for what would be had without the traditions of the Pharisees being used. And giving thanks for what is had is not going to justify all abuse no matter what, which is a real issue with all that happens in animal agriculture, that is contrary to what God ever said was permitted for using animals. We as believers along with others should have ethical consideration for our choices, thinking we can just say thanks which would eliminate need for ethical consideration for our choices is really flawed.

It's okay for Christians and not Buddhists, do I detect puffed up pride...

I really do not have an idea what these and the rest of the points have to do with anything that was shown to have been said. Sharing information is just that, which is not with depending on any basis of pride, I know I do not post with any of that and I saw nothing indicating that from the previous poster who supports vegan eating. Information: it is what it is. There is no judgment of others with that. We all have lived in worse ways that we wanted to change from, and still would want betterment from how we are now, and I don't see any claiming they are better than others. I say this is just a defensive response, it carries no realistically meaningful weight.
 
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FredVB

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Climate change: 'We've created a civilisation hell bent on destroying itself – I'm terrified', writes Earth scientist

Factory Farms Create the Perfect Conditions to Spread Viral Infections Like COVID-19

Josh Balk, vice president of farm animal protection at the Humane Society of the United States
Earth/Food/Life a project of the Independent Media Institute
March 2020

As the number of COVID-19 cases in the United States grow and the government scrambles to address the virus’s spread, it’s important to reflect on its source and discuss the role that consumption of animals plays in the spread of the disease.

According to the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention, COVID-19 likely originated in bats, and the first outbreak in Wuhan, China, has been linked to a live animal market. These markets, known as “wet markets,” allow the sale of wild animals and put people in close proximity to both live and dead animals with little or no regulatory oversight. Wet markets are also thought to be the place where other deadly diseases like severe acute respiratory syndrome (SARS) crossed the species barrier.

COVID-19 and SARS are not the only diseases that began in animals and now infect humans. An alarming 75 percent of new or emerging diseases start in animals. Researchers have found 13 zoonoses (diseases transmitted between animals and humans) which cause 2.2 million human deaths per year. Most of these infections can be traced to farm animals such as chickens, cows, pigs and goats. The World Health Organization notes that some of these diseases, like avian flu, which originated in chickens and spread to humans, are more deadly than standard flu viruses.

It’s not just live animal markets that put the world at risk by being breeding grounds for disease. Because Americans eat more meat per person than almost any other country, most farms have shifted into large-scale animal factories. Each of these operations is packed with animals—sometimes hundreds of thousands—creating the perfect conditions for spreading disease.

While governments and companies worldwide are canceling conferences and events in an attempt to stop the human-to-human transmission of COVID-19, we’re simultaneously cramming billions of animals together, effectively creating the same opportunity for disease transmission between these animals, which may then spread to humans.

Furthermore, in an attempt to keep animals alive in these filthy conditions until they reach “slaughter weight,” factory farms commonly give them antibiotics. Often these antibiotics are medically important for treating human diseases, and their overuse and misuse in animal farming is contributing to the antibiotic resistance crisis. Leading health care organizations plead that without urgent action to reduce antibiotic use in all settings—including in farm animals—we will be facing a time when these drugs no longer work for people or animals.

In addition to viral spread from these animal factories, high consumption of the products that these facilities produce—meat, eggs and dairy—creates a greater risk of chronic illness. Over and over again, studies link diets heavy in animal products to higher rates of heart disease, Type 2 diabetes, high blood pressure and types of cancer.

As we attempt to fight the spread of COVID-19, now is the time to think critically about how we want to continue to feed ourselves here in the U.S. and around the world. Clearly, this is a serious problem that seems to be of our own making. It’s a cruel irony that as we’re killing animals for food, it’s killing us, too.

...........................................................

A mutant bird flu 90 times deadlier than Covid-19* is 'poised to emerge in humans' from factory farming, a new report has warned. According to Viva!, the death rate of those infected by coronavirus is thought to be 0.66 percent. The death rate for those infected by a mutant H5N1 strain could be 60 percent. This equates to a H5N1 infection death rate 90.9 times higher.
.............................................................

There are many great reasons people change to vegan living, whether for better health, not contributing to the animal abuse, the environment, or for more food that can be produced to accommodate more, as people are starving to death now as it is, or even for dealing with climate change.

Plant-based whole food eating is the healthiest, there are studies and results showing this conclusively! Dairy and eggs were not helping your health, the industries for those products from animals cannot even claim they are healthy for human consumption with basis, neither would processed foods be helping your health. www.forksoverknives.com.

Not using any animal products is the only way to not contribute to the harm and abuse to animals in farms and the industries using them, and it is the way to not contribute to harming natural environments, not contribute to global climate change with food choices, and leave more food for others. It is better not using animals for what we have from them. There isn't justice in using them still. This is just the way it is, a good choice for how to live.

Our optimal health does not depend on animal products. There is not mere survival without animal products, people thrive without those. Anyone should get vitamin B12 supplements if they just get store bought food, it is too easy to not get enough otherwise, whether having animal products or not. This vitamin is only produced from some soil bacteria, animals and people can get the vitamin from food they get in natural environments, but any of the bacteria for it or the vitamin are missing from what animals used in the industry are fed.

We should see what is needed for everything involved to grow, harvest, process, and transport the plants that animals being used eat.
This includes:
Land required to grow plants
Water for the plants
Pesticides used on growing plants
Transport of plants
Preparation and packaging of plants
Water to drink
Deforestation of land for the plants
Animals killed by pesticides and commercial agriculture

Rearing Animals Requires Considerably More Land Use Than Plants

The Water Needed For An Omnivorous Diet Is Up To 7 Times Higher Than Plant-Based

Eating Plants Gives Us A Chance To Slow Down Greenhouse Gas Emissions & Cool Off

Animals Produce A Devastating Amount Of Agriculture’s Carbon Dioxide Emissions

Less Cattle Grazing Means Less Methane Loaded Cow Burps and Farts

Reduction In Chemicals Required To Grow Soybean Monocultures

Slowing The Spread Of Ocean Dead Zones Due To Chemical Run Off

Keeping The Oceans From Dying

Eliminating Massive Monocrop Farms That Destroy Biodiversity

Slowing Deforestation Caused By Clearing Forests For Cattle Ranching

Saving Our Vital, Fertile Topsoils


God gave food directly to certain people at times. When God did so, it was food from heaven, not using any animals. Manna to the people of Israel coming from the slavery under Egypt was such. We may not know what Elijah ate all his life. What I know was mentioned in the Bible is that God fed Elijah when he fled into the wilderness, with cake of some sort and water provided, 1 Kings 19:5-8.

Cruelty is involved in all animal use. Do not let others lead you to believe there are exceptions, it is that way in animal agriculture. Cruelty is wickedness.

Psalm 66:18, If I regard wickedness in my heart, Yahweh will not hear.

This is certainly true, and we should know it and remember that according to Proverbs 12:10, those who do not have regard for the life of their animals are wicked. It should be obvious that people who continue to eat animals knowing of this do not have regard for the lives of those animals.

God did not create sentient animal creatures in this world to just use as food continuously, they desire to live too, and feel and have terror of their oncoming death, and there are all the other reasons why it is not as good to use food from animals. It simply is not according to the perfect will of God and God is not intending for use of animals for food to last, there are scriptures showing this and none showing it was to keep continuing.

If we are Christian believers, spiritual fruit showing what was modeled for us, including love, mercy, forgiveness, compassion, and grace, should grow among us, without us resisting with limiting those still.
 
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Scann

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I think Veganism is a good thing. Let's say people stop eating meat, then no animals will be castrated with the excuse that "their meat tastes better". I can't go Vegan though. So when I eat meat,I try my best to eat uncastrated animals. If there is no clear sign if the meat came from a castrated animal or not,I just avoid eating the meat.

Update:Just discovered that God forbid the castration of animals(and humans) in the Old Testament.
 
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FredVB

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Scann said:
I think Veganism is a good thing. Let's say people stop eating meat, then no animals will be castrated with the excuse that "their meat tastes better". I can't go Vegan though. So when I eat meat,I try my best to eat uncastrated animals. If there is no clear sign if the meat came from a castrated animal or not,I just avoid eating the meat.

Update:Just discovered that God forbid the castration of animals(and humans) in the Old Testament.

Of course veganism is a good thing, it is the good direction for us with regard to our choices. People still say lame things to excuse themselves from going vegan. Sometimes it is the reasons that are lame, sometimes it without any attempt for giving a reason, like a vague "I can't go vegan" with no reason behind that. How phony can people get? Anyone can go vegan, I have at least been showing a site with a link that shows that. So those giving the lame excuses to not go vegan show clearly they do not care one bit about the animals abused and slaughtered or the people dying because of starvation while all the feed for the animals that are to be slaughtered for the demand is grown instead of enough food grown that could feed all people, and don't care one bit about more resources, land, and water being used and the environments being ruined, wildlife and sealife diminishing for animal agriculture, and climate change contributed, to even look to see that they will be likely to get a health problem as cancer, diabetes, heart attack, stroke, or hypertension, or any of many other health problems, instead of avoiding those with the healthy way of veganism, with avoiding processed food. But those not even looking at it with any lame dismissal only look quite stupid in that regard.
 
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FredVB

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April_Rose said:
I haven't read this thread but I would never want to go vegan. I pretty much live on meat and potatoes LOL (Also drink a lot of milk and eat a lot of dairy products.)

You really would not have looked at the immediately preceding posts. I had said there are lame things people say to excuse them from being vegan. Unbiblical abuse to billions of animals, people grownups and children starving and dying, rapid loss of species and environment on land and in the seas, use of much more land, water, and resources, with contribution to serious climate change, because you live this way and would never want to go vegan, with no further reason to say, showing you just don't care for any of that. And sadly so many people are just like that, not even caring to see they could avoid the cancer, heart attacks, strokes, hypertension, or other health problems any of which most people will get eventually. Sad, people should be more godly, but they just don't give a damn about serious issues.

Is it really believed that no other vegans adjusted from almost only animal products and potatoes? I assure you I have seen enough vegan communication to say that is very wrong. Anyone can really adjust to changes, and tastes change anyway. I did it and anyone can.
 
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renniks

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Seriously these flawed arguments are all that can be mustered against the good points for changing to vegan eating.

Plants are alive too...

This ignores the issues of environment and sustainability, and the possible heathy way available, for vegan eating, for assuming living things have equal right to still be left to live without consideration if they have nervous systems with a central part corresponding to a brain, and behavior with that, showing they are sentient beings. This is a flawed argument to use.

The disciples were fishermen and sheep guys...

A few were fishermen, there was a political zealot, and a tax collector, among others, I don't know about the "sheep guys" claimed. But they all changed, none were said to continue with those things after the start of the church at Pentecost after Christ's resurrection. Relevant to this there are early documents from close to that time that several apostles, and James the brother of the Lord, ate no animal products, and there was early Christian tradition around that time that Christ did not eat meat. So this argument being used is too weak.

Eat it or not, giving thanks is enough...

This is loose interpretation of a certain statement found in scriptures. It carries the idea that a permission given means no matter what, when that was certainly not said in passages showing any permission given. Christ never was speaking to go contrary to commandments from God that are found in the old testament of the Bible. What he said was to be considered clean was for what would be had without the traditions of the Pharisees being used. And giving thanks for what is had is not going to justify all abuse no matter what, which is a real issue with all that happens in animal agriculture, that is contrary to what God ever said was permitted for using animals. We as believers along with others should have ethical consideration for our choices, thinking we can just say thanks which would eliminate need for ethical consideration for our choices is really flawed.

It's okay for Christians and not Buddhists, do I detect puffed up pride...

I really do not have an idea what these and the rest of the points have to do with anything that was shown to have been said. Sharing information is just that, which is not with depending on any basis of pride, I know I do not post with any of that and I saw nothing indicating that from the previous poster who supports vegan eating. Information: it is what it is. There is no judgment of others with that. We all have lived in worse ways that we wanted to change from, and still would want betterment from how we are now, and I don't see any claiming they are better than others. I say this is just a defensive response, it carries no realistically meaningful weight.
Jesus ate meat and fish. The end.
 
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renniks

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Of course veganism is a good thing, it is the good direction for us with regard to our choices. People still say lame things to excuse themselves from going vegan. Sometimes it is the reasons that are lame, sometimes it without any attempt for giving a reason, like a vague "I can't go vegan" with no reason behind that.
Not true. In fact 90 some percent of vegans don't last a year in the US. Many people get sick from the diet and have no choice but to return to meat. And it's not actually any more ethical, either. Animals still die, in fact, in a vegan world, all domestic animals would have to be killed. You can not release cows and sheep into the fields and according to vegans it's inhumane to fence them in.
Actually one of the most sustainable methods is just feeding livestock on grass for much of thier lives. Other animals co exist quite well with this kind of grazing. Soybean burgers on the other hand, create a rather useless landscape once harvested and of course lots of animals die in the harvest to machinery and then to predators. Bottom line, you can not live on the planet without causing death.
 
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April_Rose

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Jul 4, 2020
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I really don't want to get my messages removed again so I'm going to be very careful how I word this. If I want to eat animal and dairy products,.. I'm going to eat them. I would starve anyways if I decided to go vegan (which isn't happening) because that's the majority of what I eat lol but what you choose to eat is your business as well as what I choose to eat is my business. I apologize for getting angry but I really don't like being preached at and being told what I can and cannot eat as that is not yours or anybody else's business. So I think it's for the best if we leave this conversation here. (So yes this is an apology for the record.)
 
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