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Using the Law in evangelism

Discussion in 'Salvation (Soteriology)' started by gradyll, May 26, 2019.

  1. gradyll

    gradyll logical debater- for better or for worse

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    How effective are our present-day evangelical methods when they create eighty backsliders for every one hundred “decisions for Jesus”? Some are even less effective than that—one recent campaign reported having a 92 percent backsliding rate!

    The September 1977 issue of “Eternity Magazine” reported the results of an evangelistic crusade that involved 178 churches. Out of 4,106 decisions only 3 percent joined a local church. That series of meetings created 3,981 backsliders! (More up-to-date statistics are hard to come by. Understandably, they are not published with much enthusiasm.)

    I did read that in 1987, however, a Luis Palau crusade reported 6,000 decisions. Yet, despite intense follow-up and counsel, within the first three months, 947 already had backslidden.

    To those who have a burden for the lost, like Luis Palau, Billy Graham, and many gifted evangelists around the world, these statistics are not just bad news—they are heart rending! While evangelicals run around in ever-decreasing circles, 140,000 souls die every day.

    When I taught evangelism there was one guy who wanted to use the law, and I didn't like it, I basically forbid him from using it, and he left the class. I had a hard time with it at first. I didn't like how the implications made people humble. I thought of it as embarrassing them, and that made me feel uncomfortable. But when we get saved, that should be the exact feeling we should have. Embarrassed for sin, humble before God. Not joyful and happy at conversion, but contrite. So I was wrong. The other thing I was wrong in, was free grace theology. Ray comfort teaches the correct gospel, same as john macarther, and greg laurie and raul ries. It's called Lordship salvation. Google it. But lets get back to the gospel technique.

    many are told that God loves them and has a wonderful plan for their life, but they are not told they are sinners that are going to hell. They have no need to get saved because they believe God will already save them by grace, after all Jesus died didn't He? Aren't everyone saved by grace now? No. People know they are imperfect, but they still think they are going to heaven. That is the nonreligious. Catholics on the other hand, overwhelmingly lack assurance of salvation and have the opposite error. But how do we we tell people the good news, while making them realize the seriousness of sin, but at the same time not condemning them? Well the law comes into play perfectly here.

    Without the Law there is no sin it says.

    in vines expository dictionary it spells it out clearly:

    "“transgressions” of the Law, Gal. 3:19, where the statement “it was added because of transgressions” is best understood according to Rom. 4:15; 5:13 and 5:20; the Law does not make men sinners, but makes them “transgressors”; hence sin becomes “exceeding sinful,” Rom. 7:7, 13. Conscience thus had a standard external to itself; by the Law men are taught their inability to yield complete obedience to God, that thereby they may become convinced of their need of a Savior; in Rom. 2:23, RV, “transgression (of the Law),” KJV, “breaking (the Law)”; Heb. 2:2; 9:15.¶
    above quote from:
    Vine, W. E., Unger, M. F., & White, W., Jr. (1996). Vine’s Complete Expository Dictionary of Old and New Testament Words (Vol. 2, p. 640). Nashville, TN: T. Nelson.

    Jesus explains false conversion and apostacy perfectly:


    “Therefore hear the parable of the sower:
    “When anyone hears the word of the kingdom, and does not understand it, then the wicked one comes and snatches away what was sown in his heart. This is he who received seed by the wayside.
    “But he who received the seed on stony places, this is he who hears the word and immediately receives it with joy; (joy present at false conversion, not contrition over sin)
    “yet he has no root in himself, but endures only for a while. For when tribulation or persecution arises because of the word, immediately he stumbles.
    “Now he who received seed among the thorns is he who hears the word, and the cares of this world and the deceitfulness of riches choke the word, and he becomes unfruitful.(people forget that those who are unfruitful, are not truly planted, hebrews 6, they forfeit salvation)
    “But he who received seed on the good ground is he who hears the word and understands it, who indeed bears fruit and produces: some a hundredfold, some sixty, some thirty.”

    But lets talk about eternal security: where I disagree with ray comfort.

    ray believes once saved always saved as spurgeon believed.

    Ray Comfort actually teaches that tribulations, temptations, and persecutions are good for the true convert, as well as beneficial for the false convert. For the former, according to Ray Comfort, tribulations, temptations, and persecutions will make him grow spiritually. For the latter, the same will reveal his unsaved condition so he will clearly know he is not saved and needs to genuinely repent and place his faith in Jesus for first-time salvation.

    The sunlight and the spiritual, that which reveals that which we cannot see, is tribulation, Mt. 13:21; temptation, Luke 8 verse 13; and persecution, Mark 4 verse 17. These three factors reveal what you and I cannot see, the heart condition of the professing convert. Now if you purchase an expensive house plant, one of the worst things you can do is take that plant home and say, "This plant cost me a lot of money.I'm going to keep it away from the sunlight. I'm going to put it in a closet and shut the door. Now, that's the worst thing you can do. If you know what you're doing, you'll put the plant in the sunlight and you'll even rotate it to make sure it gets plenty of balanced light. In the same way, the worst thing you and I can do with a new convert is shield him from the sunlight of tribulation, temptation and persecution. If he is genuine, the sunlight will cause him to grow. If he is false, the sunlight will cause him to wither and die.If you are a true convert, after Ray Comfort is done with you, you will think you are standing firm and will always be standing firm through tribulations, temptations and persecutions. You can't fall away, ever backslide or even look back, according to the Ray Comfort myth:Again, the true convert will never even look back according to Jesus, let alone depart from the faith.
    The Bible gives a very hard hitting Scripture to repudiate such a false notion. In 1 Cor. 10 verse 12, Paul wrote to true converts with these words:

    So, if you think you are standing firm, be careful that you don't fall!Paul believed true Christians could spiritually fall just by thinking they were firmly standing, the very message of eternal security and Ray Comfort. Christians are also told to be afraid and not arrogant in Rom. 11:19-23.
    Furthermore, if Ray Comfort's theory and theology are correct about temptations and persecutions being good for the true convert, then we should see this being taught directly or indirectly in the Bible. Just the opposite is magnified in Scripture.

    I posted this from various clips from across the internet.
     
    Last edited: May 26, 2019
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  2. gradyll

    gradyll logical debater- for better or for worse

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    I want to mention some more of this idea:

    Now I want to present a contrary viewpoint:

    Ray Comfort "Way of the Master" Law-Based Evangelism

    "We know that the law is good if one uses it properly." 1 Timothy 1:8

    I comprehend Ray Comfort's method and have observed his techniques, however did Christ ever use the law to manipulate souls by use of shame manipulation? Bear with me here, as we explore this topic. Christ did in fact mention Hell, over 70 times in the New Testament, but did he use it to coerce or instill fear for sake of manipulating listeners to accept his message? Did the Apostle Paul use the law to harvest souls as a witnessing tool? We need to look at this conspicuous evangelism model closer.

    "My message and my preaching were not with wise and persuasive words, but with a demonstration of the Spirit’s power." 1 Corinthians 2:4 (ESV)

    Evangelism as a soul tool, is intrinsically not centered around rehearsed techniques or scripted methods. Proper evangelism wells up from a holy life and a surrendered heart, under the power of the Holy Spirit. The soul whose heart overflows with the witness of God. As Scripture says, apart from a holy life, none can see God (Hebrews 12:14). While we walk in counsel with God's Spirit, we do not have to worry what to say, for that which is to be said will be given to us the moment we speak (Mark 13:11). If we are abiding in the presence of God, out of our mouths will come life giving healing (John 7:38), conviction and truth. Peter, when he preached, his words pierced the hearts of the listeners, but it was the Spirit that rent conviction that led to repentance. We are merely tools who have to willingly submit to be used in the hands of the one powerful Creator, universal and fully consuming.

    Jack Hyles, John Rice, David Cloud and Ray Comfort all in part have Lordship Salvation approaches to presenting the Gospel. Although this position is sometimes viewed as problematic, still the Gospel can be used by God to save those whom He chooses. One of the challenges with Ray Comfort's position, is that he disagrees with the other methods of evangelism, resolving that his own Law-Based Evangelism is the correct way--the best way. Ray is in effect a "Gospel Tumbler" mixing law with grace to create an man-authored evangelism technique.

    "For Christ did not send me to baptize, but to preach the gospel–not with words of human wisdom, lest the cross of Christ be emptied of its power." 1 Corithians 1:17

    Another problem as is sometimes noted, with the theology of Ray Comfort is that he has no theological training. Not that biblical schooling is a prerequisite for God to use any Christian, but it certainly is needful when one develops an instructional website, DVD's and other materials to train, as he has done. The law-based message promoted by Ray is problematic at several key junctures. It mostly fails to address the key components of the Good News message: Justification by Faith; The Death, Burial and Resurrection of Christ; and The New Birth. Instead, it uses the law to motivate change by fear and shame motivation.

    “But now the righteousness of God apart from the law is revealed…the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ, to all and on all who believe…for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, being justified freely by His grace…” (Rom 3:21-25).

    A eager soul winner should not be convinced by the zeal of a propagator, to believe they must preach the law to shame a sinner into a confession. While Ray's videos "wow" those not familiar with the biblical standard for evangelism, it is needful that we examine ALL things by the combined teaching of Scripture. In Acts 16:30 we read where an unsaved person asked Paul and Silas around midnight about how to get saved. Their answer did not include a fanciful dialogue of one's violating the law. Nor did they inquire about if they read the Torah or if they prayed three times a day. They merely told him to trust upon, cling to and rely upon Jesus for salvation. This doesn’t mean that repentance is not included in their answer because it is. (ex. see Acts 20:21.) Conviction must come from God, for true salvation to be realized. The first work of the Holy Spirit is the conviction of sin.

    John 16:8 (NEB) "When he [the Holy Spirit] comes, he will convict the world, and show where right and wrong and judgment lie. He will convict them of wrong..."

    The demons believe in God and tremble, but they shall never enter unto divine rest (James 2:19). This similty is what I find in law-based evangelism. A practiced evangelist corners a hapless victim, using Scripture and prepared dialogue, they reduce the listener to shame and guilt. In most cases, if you have an opponent bound with his arm twisted behind his back, he will relent in pleading and agree to anything to gain relief at that moment, but with a fixed heart he will remain the same. He will in measure walk way loathing the oppressor, while being found more hardened than ever toward the gospel of salvation. Additionally, I have heard witness of those who fall deeper into sin, as a result of magnifying the sin through the law.

    "For the kind of sorrow God wants us to experience leads us away from sin and results in salvation. There's no regret for that kind of sorrow. But worldly sorrow, which lacks repentance, results in spiritual death." 2 Corinthians 7:10 (NLT)

    As the Scripture reads above, Godly sorrow is genuine repentance unto salvation. Worldly sorrow, on the other hand, is being sorry for having to suffer for wrong or being caught, but not sorrow unto repentance, which desires change. Law-based evangelism attempts to "force" repentence, but instead, as the Scripture reads, results in spiritual death due to rejection. I have counseled numerous individuals in or advancing discipleship, who had hearts warped against the whole Gospel message due law-based evangelism twisting the tenants of Grace by leverage of the Law. While these evangelists are well-meaning and are confident about their glorious and divine purpose, they were regrettably training souls to despise the gospel and sink deeper into perdition. While, indeed, there may be found a number who will find Christ through this method, the question again requires reflection, "Is this the biblical standard for evangelism?"

    Oswald Chambers aptly stated "Conviction of sin is one of the rarest things that ever strikes a man. It is the threshold of an understanding of God. Jesus Christ said that when the Holy Spirit came He would convict of sin, and when the Holy Spirit rouses the conscience and brings him into the presence of God, it is not his relationship with men that bothers him, but his relationship with God."

    The Emergent Church has diminished the Gospel with a soft serve message. Easy Believism doctrines are bloodless, ecumenical, and demands tolerance for all ways as paths unto the light. And might we add, Law Based evangelists preach the law to shame sinners to confess their deprivation. The candle stand (Holy Spirit) is largely removed from many of churches (Rev. 2), because men in their own wisdom decide what is right, chosing to do things their way, apart from the precise counsel of biblical truth. Christ did not preach the law as the Good News, neither did the Apostles, or the early church fathers such as: Clement of Rome, Ignatius of Antioch, or Polycarp of Smyrna. The Gospel is summed up in Christ alone, all must point to HIM as the Father's mercy manifest, not unto the law as condemnation. By the law we understand we are sinners, whereas as Paul said, we do not need for one to preach to us the law, for it is already written on our hearts. Did you comprehend that fundamental truth? No one needs to magnify a sinner's sin by use of the law, rather by using the law, it enhances the nature of the sin.

    "Indeed, when Gentiles, who do not have the law, do by nature things required by the law, they are a law for themselves, even though they do not have the law, since they show that the requirements of the law are written on their hearts, their consciences also bearing witness, and their thoughts now accusing, now even defending them." Romans 2:14-15

    No, the law is not required to convince one of sin, rather it magnifies the curse of the law under the old covenant. The Good News is summed up: "For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life. For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him. Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because he has not believed in the name of God's one and only Son." This is the Gospel, the message salvation is found in no other. This is not a message of law, fear, hell or condemnation... this is a message of hope in the lamb who was slain in our stead. God approaches us with loving and outstretched arms as He did the prodigal son in Luke 15:11-32, in mercy and compassion, through the blood of Christ.

    How can some apologist call law-based evangelism a different gospel? The fabric of the method would change John 3:16 to read "For God so judged the world and he wrote his moral list of laws, that whoever does not follow them shall not have eternal life." The law-based evangelist can and will prove what a dirty rotten sinner you are, as is the mantra of Ray Comfort. The law-based evangelist believes that if they shame an unsuspecting listener and instill sufficient fear into them, that they will break down and give into the message that follows. Thinking upon this, can you find any place in Scripture where Jesus or the apostles used guilt and shame to coerce change from their hearers?

    Those devout to Comfort's methodologies will reference John 4 as evidence, but this was a dialogue with the Samaritan woman in which he made a law reference, but not as a method of coercion. No, rather, Christ spoke the truth in parables seasoned with mercy for the weak, judgment for the religious proud, but never manipulation for conversion to accept him. The Apostles used references from the Masoretic Text of Judaism, to contend for Christ as the chosen one, the redeemer of mankind, but never through cunning or trickery did they seduce their hearers using law-based evangelism. The power for conversion is in the message of Christ's message, his burial and resurrection.

    "Not that we are sufficient in ourselves to claim anything as coming from us, but our sufficiency is from God, who has made us competent to be ministers of a new covenant, not of the letter but of the Spirit. For the letter kills, but the Spirit gives life." 2 Corinthians 3:5-6 (ESV)

    The law written on our hearts in the New Covenant is the law of love. It is not the letter of the law written on stone. That law showed no mercy or compassion. We are not judged by that law in stone, but by the law of love in our hearts. “A new commandment I give to you, that you love one another, even as I have loved you, that you also love one another. By this all men will know that you are my disciples, if you have love for one another” (John 13:34-35). Love is the basis for the New Covenant. “This is my commandment, that you love one another, just as I have loved you”(John 15:12). It is by compassion, truth, love, mercy, humility... the fruits of the spirit that our very lives bears testimony to Christ's Spirit in us. Our witness is our message, and our words should proclaim mercy, not oppression unto shame and guilt.

    Way of the Master: "Biblical evangelism is always, without exception, Law to the proud, Grace to the humble."

    All the unregenerate are sinners who are in rebellion, and pride is the root of sin. The above adage would entail pulling out the law knife for those who would resist the gospel message as arrogantly fixed, and being sweet to those who are unsure and potentially ready to accept the message. Problem with that thinking is not understanding the real nature of the human condition, whereas all are under the curse of pride. The ideology also puts us in the position to discern what methods to use, as if we are the ones who are in control over the mechanics of salvation. I think a fundamental understanding of spiritual matters would imply that we are not to assume or be presumptuous as to be controlling agents in evangelism, to strap on a tool belt as to strategically overcome the unsaved with an arsenal of methodologies. Instead, we should allow the Holy Spirit to direct at the moment of encounter, fully instilled with the knowledge of the Word, fervently devout praying men and woman. The problem with "Gimmick" evangelism methods like Way of the Master, it is essentially religious pride pitted against sinners pride. It has an appearance of good and does achieve results, but it’s methodology is not of God spirit, but of man's devices.

    This can be a difficult subject, whereas Jesus did undeniably teach both law and grace. Preaching the Law is necessary, but it is not the first step in preaching the Gospel as the Law is not the Gospel. As Calvin like Luther rightly observes, "The Law is the content and guide for the Christian but if you begin to hear the Law accusing you must set the Law aside and flee to the cross immediately where true power and true rest is given." The Law never gives what it demands and thus the Gospel is the power. Hence the distinction (contra arminianism, pelgianism, pietism and some dispensationalism) must always be maintained yet without divorcing the two. Those who preach Christ as a "new lawgiver" in opposition to Moses as the "old lawgiver", defile Christ. Yes, Christ preached both but His office is that of Redeemer not lawgiver. Moses' office was that of Lawgiver, yet the Gospel of grace was a part. The Law is natural to all men in a sense and all seek vainly to become righteous by it. The Gospel is alien and must be declared again and again.

    As you read through the gospel accounts, you will find that the message that Jesus is always teaching, that he instructs his disciples to teach, and that his Apostle to the Gentiles teaches is about the Kingdom of God. In fact, our last glimpse of Paul in the third-person account of Acts is this: “For two whole years Paul stayed there in his own rented house and welcomed all who came to see him. Boldly and without hindrance he preached the kingdom of God and taught about the Lord Jesus Christ.” (Acts 28:30-31) As you read the Acts account of Paul and his teaching, he has two specific, but intertwined messages – one is the Kingdom of God and the other is the gospel of Jesus Christ.

    In all, the God’s kingdom is mentioned (as either the Kingdom of God, Kingdom of Heaven, or just ‘the kingdom’) 102 times in the four Gospels and another 28 times in the remainder of the New Testament. If we Christians claim to follow Jesus, should we not, like Paul, also be ready to speak both about the person we claim to follow (Jesus) AND the message that he taught? The kingdom of God is the rule of an eternal sovereign God over all creatures and things (Psalm 103:19; Daniel 4:3). The kingdom of God is also the designation for the sphere of salvation entered into at the new birth (John 3:5-7), and is synonymous with the “kingdom of heaven.”

    Christ and John the Baptist announced the good news that the Kingdom was at hand (Matt 3:2; 4:17; Mark 1:15). So in all this, we learn that Christ and the Apostles preached The Kingdom of God being that God will reign over all as the primary message, while using the law to reveal the corrupt nature in some cases (as Way of the Master does effectively) covering all in God’s Grace found in the blood atonement through Christ, which is the only gateway into God's Kingdom now and throughout eternity.

    I believe Ray Comfort means well and is a sincere servant of Christ, motivated to be an effective soul winner. And like other purveyors of new doctrinal methods, God can use them to a point, even if their approach is problematic. Maybe a few souls might be saved, to this we should praise the Lord, but how many more are spiritually damaged? This is the primary concern based on gathered evidence.
     
  3. Carl Emerson

    Carl Emerson Well-Known Member

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    Thanks for this presentation, I was close to Ray in Christchurch before he went to the US.

    Frankly I don't think any form of evangelism is effective currently.

    The best evangelism is mentioned in John 17:21 - that is, the visible unity of believers.

    Sadly there is little interest in this, currently, as it requires a return to the body life in early acts.

    The world waits for this, while the church insists on whatever else they are doing.
     
    Last edited: May 26, 2019
  4. gradyll

    gradyll logical debater- for better or for worse

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    I agree with rays form of evangelism, but with other modifications. apostacy docrtrines should not be talked about to new christians, but bearing fruit should be. Staying in christ should be for example. I have the utmost respect for ray. He has popularized something that is very unpopular. And is taking alot of heat. There are few atheists who have not heard of ray comfort (the banana man). They usually mock him. But at the same time, can't answer any of the allegations he brings up in the new documentary the athiest delusion on youtube.
     
  5. Carl Emerson

    Carl Emerson Well-Known Member

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    Yes to that, but honestly the key to successful evangelism is not some holy grail of theology presented with verbal accuracy.

    We must read the first 5 chapters of Acts again and see what mode of fellowship resulted in the explosion of growth never repeated in the history of our faith.

    Units of believers in community visible to the world.
    Apostolic authority in the market place.
    Love mixed with the fear of Him.

    We are lightyears from this today.

    Wake up Church - you have lost your way.
     
  6. gradyll

    gradyll logical debater- for better or for worse

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    I agree that the power of Acts needs to be expressed. Victory over sin in our personal lives. I taught evangelism and led street teams for the greater part of ten years as a young adult. I saw lots of people saved, hundreds. No one went with me to church or engaged in follow bible studies (accept one guy in ten years, that I remember, maybe two). Then the last six months I have been overcoming all sorts of habitual sins of addiction in my life, drawing close to God, fasting, praying. Reading the Bible every day. Then all of a sudden a guy from work says, "man I see God in you, can I go to church with you". He brings his wife, his baby, and his mother and father in law, who have never been to church. Tomorrow I am going to see if he wants to go again. See what I could not do in my flesh, God did automatically because of one life surrendered to God. Imagine if every evangelist did that? Instead of focusing on tactic, and presentation and soteriology, they focused on holiness, and drawing close to God?
     
  7. Carl Emerson

    Carl Emerson Well-Known Member

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    Yes I identify with that as well.
    Personal transformation and also social transformation.
    Have you seen Viva Christo Rey ?
     
  8. gradyll

    gradyll logical debater- for better or for worse

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    no I haven't, what is it about?
     
  9. Carl Emerson

    Carl Emerson Well-Known Member

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    Prayer Group in the 60's looks out over a dump in Mexico and is convicted about sharing with the poor.
    They take some food for about 125 and some tables to share with the dump workers for a Christmas dinner.
    350 show up and the food multiplies so fast they have to take the left-overs to 5 orphanages to get rid of it. This began a community movement that transformed a society.
    Folks started sharing what they had like in Acts.
    This is a must see. Is also documented in a book called Miracles in El Paso.
     
  10. Carl Emerson

    Carl Emerson Well-Known Member

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  11. His student

    His student Well-Known Member

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    This is a little off where you likely intended to go with this.

    But I give a pretty fair percentage of my dollars for evangelism to foreign missions.

    I simply won't give a nickle to any crusade in the third world that features a "white, foreign evangelist".

    I not only don't believe that the lasting impact of the crusades is up to par. I also don't believe that missionaries from the U.S. (for example) speaking through an interpreter can reach indigenous people on a heart level and provide follow up as well as indigenous ministers - assuming they have had some proper training.

    That proper training can come from foreign teachers and often does. I support those teachers and equipers. But after that is taken care of I think that there's a lot more "evangelism bang for the buck" to be had by supporting organization that are clearing houses to provide support for proven productive indigenous preachers and teachers.

    That's particularly true in cultures where there is open hostility to foreign interference in their lives and to the gospel message in general.

    I know a lot of people to whom personal involvement in 3rd world missions is meaningful to them. That's fine with me. It's their money that they are spending as they see fit.

    But I do think that it is generally wasted money to fly to Africa or India and get personally involved in preaching to the people who live there.
     
  12. gradyll

    gradyll logical debater- for better or for worse

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    I would agree with you, training up locals to do the preaching is always best.
     
  13. gradyll

    gradyll logical debater- for better or for worse

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    I watched part of it, I was distracted by the charimatic part of it. I can deal with roman catholic video's but not the hyper charismatic. I am pentecostal myself, but it was just a distracting part of the video.

    I was too distracted to finish it.

    can you summarize it.
     
  14. gradyll

    gradyll logical debater- for better or for worse

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    Untitled.png
     
  15. gradyll

    gradyll logical debater- for better or for worse

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    dispensationalism.png
     
  16. Carl Emerson

    Carl Emerson Well-Known Member

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    That is a tad sad...

    This is one of the most remarkable outpourings of God's love in recent years.

    Could you not grit your theological teeth and watch it?

    I think Jesus did this in a Catholic environment on purpose to challenge the notion that He cant move where ever He wants
     
  17. gradyll

    gradyll logical debater- for better or for worse

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    I don't think it's an isolated case as you do. I think this is happening all over the world right now. I just seen a group yesterday, a music group that went to india and witnessed to 800,000 people, and when they came back they used that experience to start a worship ministry, and minster to college and career and high school students all over america.
    About | Red Rocks Worship

    God is moving, if He is moving in a catholic revival, believe me it is in spite of that religion, not in Louie of it. Think of it this way, if thousands of poor immigrants got saved by that revival, thats great. What then? They get incorporated into Catholicism. I don't know about you but I talk to Catholics dozens of times a month. There is not a one of them that knows they are going to heaven. The catholic system is a system of works. The catholic catechism has seven sacraments that any member must follow in order to be saved, various prayers, mandatory mass, communion, even marriage.

    Sir, that is not of Jesus.


    "But if it is of works, it is no longer grace..."
    Romans 11:6

    "David also describes the blessedness of the man to whom God imputes righteousness apart from works"
    Romans 4:6
     
    Last edited: May 27, 2019
  18. Carl Emerson

    Carl Emerson Well-Known Member

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    Yes of course, but despite this He moved wonderfully, I still challenge you to watch it...
     
  19. gradyll

    gradyll logical debater- for better or for worse

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    it sort of makes me angry to think about it.
     
  20. His student

    His student Well-Known Member

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    Well said brother.

    I agree that if God moves in an environment of false teaching - it is in spite of that teaching and not to honor it.

    I believe the word "miracle" is tossed around all too easily as is the proclaiming that God has somehow "moved" when in fact it is simply a touch of humanity. Often people are touched deeply by having their needs met by Christians. But that does not make it a miracle or any other kind of movement of God Himself.

    Unless the true gospel is preached, and especially if the particular event glorifies false doctrine, it is all for naught at best or perhaps even does the work of the devil in the long run.

    There are many ministries to the poor like this around the world where the true gospel is preached and people are being saved. Far better to talk up and or support those ministries to the poor than one that gives credence to false and spiritually imprisoning Roman Catholic doctrines.

    Roman Catholicism has been a blight and a chain on the people of Mexico for hundreds of years. IMO if God were to actually move in a miraculous way by such a ministry to the poor in Mexico - He would use the movement to break those chains from the people and not condone or encourage involvement in Roman Catholicism.

    I am charismatic myself and I believe in moves of the Spirit. But all too often in charismatic circles false or weak doctrine is winked at simply because those involved supposedly speak in tongues or bring supposed prophetic words from God.

    Almost always in those kinds of settings any "word from God" is of a generalized nature about His love for the poor and the like and does not emphasis the gospel way to be saved in the most basic sense of the word.

    That's one reason that I am extremely skeptical concerning the supposed miracles that happen in Catholic settings - that definitely includes things like the Shroud of Turin and earthly visitations and messages by Mary and many such dubious things.
     
    Last edited: May 27, 2019
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