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Using the Law in evangelism

Discussion in 'Salvation (Soteriology)' started by gradyll, May 26, 2019.

  1. Carl Emerson

    Carl Emerson Well-Known Member

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    Yes, think about the women at the well... Jesus shouldn't have been sitting anywhere near her let alone talking to Her.

    I guess His love is a little larger than our way of viewing things...

    The dump people were in need of Jesus and He used a Catholic group to achieve this.

    In this case it was obedience to His word that convicted them to do this.

    It is about His love for the dump folk - not the Catholic Church... have a look !!
     
  2. Carl Emerson

    Carl Emerson Well-Known Member

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    Did you view the video???
     
  3. His student

    His student Well-Known Member

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    Yes, of course.
    I wouldn't be commenting on it if I had not.

    The oppressive presence of the Catholic religion was almost palpable.
     
  4. Carl Emerson

    Carl Emerson Well-Known Member

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    So you dismiss this as having been a move of God?
     
  5. gradyll

    gradyll In the grip of grace

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    amen brother, I agree whole heartedly. I believe in the end days satan will have false miracles and draw many away after him, with false doctrine.
     
  6. gradyll

    gradyll In the grip of grace

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    God uses a lot of pagan nations to do his will, look at the time of the Judges in the Bible. God wanted to punish the paganism of his own people so he allowed the pagan nations to invade israel.

    point being, because God did something there to feed those poor people, don't automatically think they were saved because of it.

    God could have simply been feeding the hungry.

    and using whatever was available.

    I would pray that they are now, currently saved. IF you wish to do something worth while.
     
  7. His student

    His student Well-Known Member

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    That is correct.

    God obviously used the activities of those Catholics to feed the poor whom He cares deeply for as He grieves for their lost estate.

    But I doubt very much that He did any miracle there which would, in effect, given His endorsement to a false gospel which He despises.

    As I said - I am doubtful as to the authenticity of any so called miracle used by the Roman Catholic church to promote their propaganda.

    It is not my purpose or that of the OP (I believe) to bash Roman Catholicism. But there are better examples of careing for the poor and moves of God to point to than that supposed move in Juarez Mexico.

    I have no idea if you are Catholic or not. If you are, in some ways, I'm sorry that we have been bashing your religion. In other ways I welcome having the opportunity to speak the truth about it here.
    Actually it may have been just the opposite that convicted them to do it.

    When Mother Theresa was asked why she gave her life to care for the poor and dying of India, her reply if I recall it correctly, was that God has provided many good works for us to do here on earth in order that we can earn our way to Heaven.

    Not only is that not correct - it is the direct opposite to the gospel of Jesus Christ vis a vis making it to Heaven vs. being condemned to Hell.

    She did not preach the gospel to those in her charge simply because she did not understand the gospel to so preach. In stead she gave her approval to their false religions as they lay dying and about to cross over into eternity.

    In her particular case she not only didn't show them the way into the Kingdom of God, she did not even enter in herself - as her diaries and memoirs clearly show.

    Again - if you understand the difference between the gospel of Roman Catholicism and that of evangelical Christianity - there are better supposed moves of God to use for examples than that blatantly Roman Catholic one.
     
  8. His student

    His student Well-Known Member

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    Jesus told her the truth while He was talking to her. That was His motive for being there.

    As Paul taught us - whatever the motive of those preaching the truth - and regardless of whether it is the Son of God Himself or an evangelist and whether or not we agree with all of the doctrines of those who are proclaiming it - we should rejoice in the proclamation of the gospel.

    If I thought for a minute that the people involved in this ministry were also telling the people the true gospel - I wouldn't doubt for a minute that Jesus would have been right there with them and might even have done some real miracles while He was there.

    I, for one, would dearly like to drop the subject of Roman Catholicism now as would , I believe, "gradyll" the original poster.
     
  9. Carl Emerson

    Carl Emerson Well-Known Member

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    So the food was OK but not the bible study, prophesy, healing etc.
     
  10. mnphysicist

    mnphysicist Have Courage to Trust God!

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    I think we put too much faith in man's efforts

    Consider the questionable aspects of
    1. Campus Crusade's God has a Wonderful Plan for your life... which might include getting eaten by a lion, but this isn't exactly mentioned.
    2. Navigators cherry picked scriptures for witnessing, which has brought perhaps millions to say the sinners prayer, but ultimately hasn't brought about many disciples
    3. Lordship salvation which is rebadged salvation by works, and yes, I've read John MacArthurs books, which say it isn't, but convinced me more so than ever it is.
    4. Easy believerism, altar calls, decision theology, law without grace, grace without law, get rich quick Gospels, prosperity Gospels, Gospels with a boatload of extra hoop jumping, pietism, holyness movements, manipulative approaches to rig the numbers to bolster a ministries finances etc etc etc

    As contrasted with Romans 10:17 and John 6:44-47

    And this is the thing... whole multitude of people have come to Christ, despite some pretty crazy teachings, even some totally contradictory to the entirety of the scriptures.

    I've seen the fruit come about from all of the questionable methods listed up post... its not because of the approach per se, it's because somewhere along the line, folks were also exposed to the word of God. It may not be very much fruit, it might require years of undoing errant doctrines, and/or removing toxic theology from ones walk... but it can and does happen.

    It isn't man's teaching, or cherry picking, or eloquent speaking, it is the word of God and the Holy Spirit that bring folks to Christ, that enable folks to become disciples. This is not an excuse to be lame in preaching, to be lazy, to not even try to make disciples, or to ascribe to specific doctrines of predestination or lack there of.... but that as long as the scriptures are present, God can and does work with them to accomplish his perfect will, irrespective of man's teachings, motive, or other peripheral issues.
     
  11. gradyll

    gradyll In the grip of grace

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    I think the point of this thread is that we are saved by grace apart from works, but what point is christianity if it doesn't change us.

    while the roman catholic propaganda needs exposing, so does easy believism, where we can believe in Jesus in our mind, but live like a heathen in our normal life. Separating our theology from our lifes. In essence being a false convert.
     
  12. Soyeong

    Soyeong Well-Known Member

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    Jesus began his ministry with the Gospel message to repent from our sins for the Kingdom of God is at hand (Mark 1:14-15, Matthew 4:17-23) and the Mosaic Law was how his audience knew what sin was, so repenting from our disobedience to it is an integral part of the Gospel of Christ. So it is impossible to teach the Gospel of Christ without teaching repenting from our sin and returning to obedience to God's Law. In Romans 15:4, Paul referred to OT Scripture as being written for our instruction and verses 18-19, Paul Gospel message involved bringing the Gentiles to full obedience in word and in deed, so he was on the same page as Jesus. In Acts 2:38, Peter's message also included repenting from our sins.

    In Deuteronomy 4:5-8, the intended reaction of the nations seeing Israel's obedience was to marvel at how great and wise God is. God's Law is His instructions for how to walk in His ways and express His character traits through our actions in accordance with His nature, and by doing that we are being a light to the nations and testifying to the nations about who God is, and thereby drawing the nations into a relationship with God. In other words, the Mosaic Law was intended to be used as a tool to evangelize the nations (Isaiah 2:2-3, Isaiah 49:6, Matthew 5:13-16).

    It is easy to pray for God trials away from us, but it is better to pray for Him to be with us through them because they are for our growth.

    I agree that there are many verses that encourage perseverance to the end and warn against falling away, which would not be needed if that were not possible. Our salvation is secure in the sense that no one can take it away from us, but we can still nevertheless turn our backs on God. OSAS can lead people to think that because they said a prayer that they are saved and can no go back to living how they were before. Christianity is not about signing up for a ticket to the right place when we die, but about signing up for a transformed life. It is as much about getting heaven into us as it is about getting us into heaven.
     
    Last edited: May 27, 2019
  13. Soyeong

    Soyeong Well-Known Member

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    Graciousness and righteousness are both compatible character traits of the same God, which He showed to people throughout both the OT and NT, so the problem is not with mixing grace and Law, but with people trying to amputate God's righteousness from His graciousness. Rather, in Psalms 119:29, David wanted God to be gracious to him by teaching him to obey His Law.

    In Romans 3:21-22, the Law and the Prophet testify that the righteousness of God comes through faith in Christ for everyone who has faith, so this has always been the one and only way to become righteous. In Titus 2:11-14, our salvation is described as being trained by grace to do what is godly, righteous, and good, and to renounce doing what is ungodly, which is essentially what God's Law was given to instruct how to do. Furthermore, verse 14 says that Jesus gave himself to redeem us from all Lawlessness and to purify for himself a people of his own possession who are zealous for doing good works, so if we believe in the death, burial, and resurrection of Christ, then we will become zealous for doing good works in obedience to God's Law (Acts 21:20) and will not return to the Lawlessness that he gave himself to redeem us from. So the Law-based message does not fail to address they key components.

    If Ray Comfort's goal was to condemn people, then you might have a point. However, the Law was not given to condemn us, but to teach us how to walk in God's ways and express His character traits in accordance with His nature. God said that His Law was given for our own good in order to bless us and to teach us how to walk in His ways (Deuteronomy 6:24, 10:12-13), not in order to show us that we are dirty rotten sinners.

    If we didn't need someone to preach the Law, then Jesus would not have spent his ministry doing that. In Matthew 23:23, Jesus said that faith is one of the weightier matters of the Law, so if we have faith in God to guide us, then we will obey His Law, which means that everyone who has faith will be a doer of the Law, which is why Paul said in Romans 2:13 that only doers of the Law will be justified. So that is important and must not be left out. In Romans 2:14-15, Paul was speaking to Gentiles who were believers, not to unbelievers. Everything in the OT points to Christ because he validated everything in the OT. If God's Law magnified sin, then it would be sinful, however, Paul said in Romans 7:7 that God's Law was not sinful, but that it was given to reveal what sin is. Rather, it is the law of sin that magnifies sin. To believe in Jesus is to believe in who he is, what he came to accomplish, and that that means for how we should therefore live our lives, and that involves obedience to God's Law.

    Again, Jesus began his ministry with the Gospel message to repent from our sins for the Kingdom of God is at hand, and the Mosaic Law is how his audience knew what sin is, so it is impossible to remove that from the Gospel of Christ. Jesus gave himself to redeem us from all Lawlessness (Titus 2:14), so I don't see the point in emphasizing that "he came to redeem mankind..." while deemphasizing "...from all Lawlessness".

    The Bible frequently uses the same terms to describe the character of God as it does to describe the character of God's Law, which is straightforwardly because it is His instructions for how to express His character traits. For example, God's Law is holy, righteous, and good (Romans 7:12), and justice, mercy, and faithfulness are weightier matters of the Law (Matthew 23:23), so if God's love, mercy, compassion, or other fruits of the Spirit are not expressed through our obedience to God's Law, then we are not obeying it correctly.
     
  14. gradyll

    gradyll In the grip of grace

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    I agree with everything ray teaches accept the false convert idea. I believe that someone can become apostate. And I included an alternative viewpoint to that in the second half of post one. then I also included a critical review of use of the law in post two. I agree whole hearted with what you say here, I don't know if you know this, but in theological circles you would be a lordship salvationist. Lordship salvation is the method that Jesus taught. Free grace is what I was convinced of while I was teaching evangelism, I was more concerned with numbers of confessions of faith than I was about making disciples. Funny thing is God is doing more in my life as an obedient follower now, then he was doing while I was teaching evanglelism and leading groups witnessing, all the while living in sin. God can do more through one life sold out for him, than in 100 backsliders.
     
  15. gradyll

    gradyll In the grip of grace

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    While I believe we need to repent to be saved, this is taught clearly by the gospels, It is important that we are not saved by works. I feel I know this, but I am often reminded of it. I fully do not comprehend grace sometimes, many times. You didn't get into God's family because of your performance, and you won't get kicked out because of your performance. God chose to love you because of who He is, not because of who you are or what you did, so He's not going to stop loving you. But at the same time if we sin willfully after receiving the knowledge of the truth, there remains no more sacrifice for our sins, it says in hebrews. Hebrews six mentions leaving the faith. The best way I can reconcile it is when we sin the same sin, and we become addicted to it, and it gains a foothold in our lives, we become embarrassed of it. Then we start to legitimize it to remove the shame. Then eventually we become proud of it. After many years. Then we no longer need Jesus because we no longer believe we are sinning. Then we shipwreck our faith all together. The end becomes worse than the beginning. We become a far greater son of hell, than even before we became a christian. This is what I believe every case of apostacy is referring to in the Bible. But it is important to believe that sin won't remove salvation from us. It can't because after salvation our sin is forgiven. It's the process of losing faith, via the deception of willful sin. Struggling with sin, and maintaining our shame and simply trying harder the next time, is a healthy thing...we mortify our body daily, beating it into submission. But it is when we give up fighting sin, that we start a love affair with our sin, and our romance with God ends.
     
  16. Soyeong

    Soyeong Well-Known Member

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    As far as I am aware, Lordship Salvation does not teach that doing good works are a prerequisite to salvation, so can you quote Ray Comfort or some other source that teaches that? God's Law straightforwardly does what it was given to do and does not do what it was not given to do, so it is important to have correct understanding of its purpose so that we do good works for the right reasons and not for the wrong reasons.

    In Titus 2:14, our salvation is described as being trained by grace to do what is godly, righteous, and good, and to renounce doing what is ungodly, which is essentially what God's Law was given to instruct us how to do. So participating in in this training by grace is not about trying to earn our salvation in order to become saved, but rather it is what our salvation looks like or entails. Our salvation is from sin (Matthew 1:21) and sin is defined as the transgression of God's Law (1 John 3:4), so being trained by grace to live in obedience to God's Law through faith is what being saved from living in disobedience to God's Law looks like.
     
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  17. bcbsr

    bcbsr Newbie

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    I think I'm on board with Ray Comfort's preaching of the gospel. In contrast is an example of Rick Warren's presentation of the gospel. In the video tape with goes along with the book Warren has people pray a prayer at the end of the first session that goes like this: "Dear God, I want to know your purpose for my life. I don't want to base the rest of my life on wrong things. I want to take the first step in preparing for eternity by getting to know you. Jesus Christ, I don't understand how but as much as I know how I want to open up my life to you. Make yourself real to me. And use this series in my life to help me know what you made me for" The Warren goes on to say: "Now if you've just prayed that prayer for the very first time I want to congratulate you. You've just become a part of the family of God." Nothing about sin. Nothing of Christ's death and resurrection. Nothing about acknowledging Christ as the Son of God, nor as Lord, nor as Savior. While the prayer is appropriate for seekers, such a prayer does not make one a Christian. A person becomes a Christian through faith in Christ - faith which is based upon information which Warren does not provide. For faith comes from hearing the message of the Bible.

    But as for how Paul and Jesus preached the gospel, I think you're overlooking material. For example you jump to the middle of chapter 3 of Romans, apparently oblivious to the fact that Paul's presentation of the gospel includes the first two and a half chapters talking about the Law, guilt and conviction of sin. Likewise with Jesus, when he was asked a number of times what one must do to get eternal life, he responded with the law. (Mt 19:16; Mk 10:17; Lk 18:18) That's not the gospel of grace. Why didn't he give them a John 5:24 instead? Because "through the law we become conscious of sin." Rom 3:20 and "the law was our tutor to bring us to Christ" Gal 3:24

    What Jesus and Paul are implying in their method of preaching the gospel is that people need to be convicted of sin, they need to embrace the idea that based on their performance they are not going to heaven, before one preaches grace.

    As for the Acts 16:30 situation, note the the jailer asked "What must I do to be saved?" So he was already informed and convicted of his need to be saved. Then you preach grace. "Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved" Acts 16:31
     
  18. gradyll

    gradyll In the grip of grace

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    praying a prayer is just so that someone can know definitively when they were saved. There is no need to pray the sinners prayer soteriologically. It can make alter calls appear to convert more souls, but the truth is that more souls are false converts than true converts. Ray comfort says, repent of your sin to be saved, believe in the Lord Jesus and you will be saved. Read the Bible daily and obey it. He adds that sentence after saying the Gospel, "read the Bible daily" for his follow up.
     
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