USA= Babylon

[Critias]

Yeah, places like China and North Korea and Sudan, where Christians are persecuted, tortured, and killed for the faith don't really signify. Satan isn't really interested in that sort of thing, it's R rated movies and beer drinking that he gets excited about.

I think Satan tends to do his best when he is inside the Church twisting doctrine and beliefs. Peter, in 2 Peter, didn't warn us about the outside of the Church, he warned us about those who would be in the church and lead people astray. We see this happening a lot in America today.

I tend to think of America like the Israelites. We know who God is, yet many have chosen to disobey Him regardless.

I am not saying China and North Korea or the Sudan are not places where Satan is at work. I tend to think he is at work everywhere. I just think we are finding a lot of apostacy going on in America, perhaps more than other places.

 

[OhhJim]

I just think we are finding a lot of apostacy going on in America, perhaps more than other places.

What leads you to believe that America's apostacy is worse than that of the Church in other countries?

 

[Critias]

What leads you to believe that America's apostacy is worse than that of the Church in other countries?

Well for one I said perhaps more than other places. I stated that it could perhaps be worse because America has a large percentage of population that claims to be Christian. Last polls that were ran stated 80+ percent claimed they were Christians.

Some of these same people claim Jesus isn't the Son of God. Some more claim that the Bible doesn't gives accurate truths about God. Some more disagree with what the Bible states.

Now, it may or may not be true that America has a larger percentage of apostacy than other nations.

Maybe you think differently, thats cool. Maybe you even think America hasn't taken her eyes off of God and that as a whole it has much stronger Christian beliefs than it has before.

I am just stating what some here may be seeing within their point of view. Some people here live in areas where sexual immorality is praised. I know I live next door to where it is considered normal, Hollywood.

 

[OhhJim]

Well for one I said perhaps more than other places. I stated that it could perhaps be worse because America has a large percentage of population that claims to be Christian. Last polls that were ran stated 80+ percent claimed they were Christians.

Some of these same people claim Jesus isn't the Son of God. Some more claim that the Bible doesn't gives accurate truths about God. Some more disagree with what the Bible states.

Now, it may or may not be true that America has a larger percentage of apostacy than other nations.

Maybe you think differently, thats cool. Maybe you even think America hasn't taken her eyes off of God and that as a whole it has much stronger Christian beliefs than it has before.

I am just stating what some here may be seeing within their point of view. Some people here live in areas where sexual immorality is praised. I know I live next door to where it is considered normal, Hollywood.

True, you did say "perhaps". However, I suggest that if I were to say that "perhaps Critias is a moron", I'd get another nice message from the admins, because it's understood that saying it that way means you put some stock in it. (For the record, I didn't say, nor do I believe, that you are a moron. I am only giving an example.) If you do not believe that America is worse than other countries, that's cool. However, you brought up the possibility.

I will admit that America is probably less Christ-centered than in years past. However, so are many other countries. It doesn't automatically follow that God is going to send hurricanes to damage us. It doesn't mean anything, just that the world, as a whole, is moving away from God, as was predicted by various early church fathers.

 

[Big Mouth Nana]

Then what is keeping Saudi Arabia, or North Korea, or The Netherlands from being destroyed? They are pretty sinful over there, I hear. Not much mention of God in Saudi Arabia's public square, eh? If removing God from public mention brings destruction, lots of countries would be gone.

God is not just going to judge Babylon (USA). This subject is Babylon = USA.

This verse has nothing to do with America. It is a promise to King Solomon, about the Jews. Please show where Americans are called by the name of Yahweh. God's name is Yahweh, not "God", "Lord" or "Christ".

If this whole nation repented and humbled themselves, do you actually think that God would ignore that verse . He won't go against His Word, no matter who it was intended for....1st John 5:7 ~ For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the WORD, (Jesus) and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one. Does this mean that since the Messiah was prophecied in verses in the OT, that Jesus didn't really come on the scene in the NT? OhhJim...come now!!! Also, we have been grafted into Israel...IE: JEWS.

 

[Critias]

True, you did say "perhaps". However, I suggest that if I were to say that "perhaps Critias is a moron", I'd get another nice message from the admins, because it's understood that saying it that way means you put some stock in it. (For the record, I didn't say, nor do I believe, that you are a moron. I am only giving an example.) If you do not believe that America is worse than other countries, that's cool. However, you brought up the possibility.

I will admit that America is probably less Christ-centered than in years past. However, so are many other countries. It doesn't automatically follow that God is going to send hurricanes to damage us. It doesn't mean anything, just that the world, as a whole, is moving away from God, as was predicted by various early church fathers.

I brought it up as something to think about, speculation.

There are some countries, like China for example that the percentage of Christians are increasing. India as well. As far as larg countries go, I would speculate that America is probably decreasing in its Christ-centered standards faster than any other country. For one, we have had a large percentage of our population that were Christians. More so than most in those years that this was true. Many countries, Africa, India, China, Russia, etc are increasing in percentage of believers. Other countries never had large percentages(majority of population) of believers.

I could effectively make a case off that that American Christian values are decreasing faster than any other nation. I believe the rise of Apostacy within the Church is greater than most countires as well.

Again, I could be wrong, it is just my point of view. When God judged previous nations, the two sins that are most often talked about are sexual immorality and idolarty. These two sins are rapidly increasing within America. Even churches today are supporting with condoning homosexual behavior, allow them to be priests and pastors; not preaching against sexual relationships outside of marriage, abortion, etc. There are churches that support these in America.

Whether or not you agree with is not of concern. Surely you couldn't say that these Churches are in the right when they condone and promote sexual immorality and idol worship.(Jesus Seminary, Mormons, JW - they all call themselves Christians)

 

[Big Mouth Nana]

I could effectively make a case off that that American Christian values are decreasing faster than any other nation. I believe the rise of Apostacy within the Church is greater than most countires as well.

Gee, I feel like I am still at church tonight. My pastor said about the exact same thing tonight when talking about the hurricanes. He said, this is not a Christian nation anymore. It is a nation with some Christians in it. He was talking about how the earth will react when it is full of sin, about the condition of the churches in America, how they are going apostate, and the mounting sin in this nation. He said that the earth will give a negative reaction, and basically is groaning to be redeemed from it. He gave an illustration of when you drive a car, and the front end is out of alignment, and it shakes going down the road. Things are out of balance, and not the way that God intended for it to be. The only way to align it back up, is to repent, get back to the Word of God and Jesus Christ His Son.
I do know that a lot of preachers are preaching a sugar coated, watered down gospel. I have heard them right on the tv. They never preach repentance, that there is a literal hell, they say that you can have a grand life right here on earth, you don't have to be poor etc. If that's true, then I have missed it somewhere, right along with most other Christians!!! I don't want to get off on prosperity preachers, but they seem to be the only ones who have the money . In the early church, the bible says that they had all things common...Acts 4:32 ~ And the multitude of them that believed were of one heart and of one soul: neither said any of them that ought of the things which he possessed was his own; BUT THEY HAD ALL THINGS COMMON. Do we see that in the church today? NO. A lot of church members are poor, and the leaders are wealthy. A lot of the churches have gotten totally away from the bible. God is going to severly judge the shepards of the flock.
I firmly believe that this nation is Babylon, and we are in deep caa-caa.

 

[Critias]

Also, for a nation that a few months ago was polled at 80% Christians, why is it a fact that it is the 3rd largest mission field in the world?

Seems rather odd doesn't it?

A missionary connected to my church relayed a message from China that a few Chinese Christians want to be educated in mission work so that they can go to America because they feel we need to hear the Gospel.

Personally, I think that says something.

 

[Big Mouth Nana]

Also, for a nation that a few months ago was polled at 80% Christians, why is it a fact that it is the 3rd largest mission field in the world?

Seems rather odd doesn't it?

A missionary connected to my church relayed a message from China that a few Chinese Christians want to be educated in mission work so that they can go to America because they feel we need to hear the Gospel.

Personally, I think that says something.

I heard that poll report on Christian radio a few days ago. I think that part of the reason that we need the missionaries coming to America, is because our hearts have been hardened...the love of many has waxed cold. I have always thought that verse to be the church. The reason that foreign countries are so ready to receive the gospel, is because they have had it harder then we have in America. Jesus offers healing to the broken hearted, and the peace that only He can give, no matter what bad circunstances these people live in. They are looking for that, and their Spirits are open to receive. They are having huge revivals in some countries, and fantastic healings. Why? Because they receive the gospel like a little child....like we all did in the beginning.
In this nation, we have heard the gospel for years. We have ready access to the bible, Christian tv, a church on almost every corner....not all preaching the gospel of course, and this nation is as Spitually dead as a brick!! This nation isn't going to have a revival until we repent. Why would God give us the revival Spirit, when we live like the world? That's like giving your disobediant child a reward!! We need brokeness in our Spirits toward God in this nation.

 

[OhhJim]

I could effectively make a case off that that American Christian values are decreasing faster than any other nation. I believe the rise of Apostacy within the Church is greater than most countires as well.

Whether or not you agree with is not of concern. Surely you couldn't say that these Churches are in the right when they condone and promote sexual immorality and idol worship.(Jesus Seminary, Mormons, JW - they all call themselves Christians)

I agree with pretty much all that you said, it's just that I don't see it as a reason for God to judge America over and above other countries. Are we worse because we had a period of 300 years (roughly 1650-1950) where we were primarily Christian (albeit a VERY legalistic Christianity) than a country that was pagan for those 300 years? Will God be more upset by apostacy, or by the beheading of Christians?

Does God say, "Mohmahd beheads Christians. Fred downloads porn. I think I'll smite Fred."?

 

[Big Mouth Nana]

I agree with pretty much all that you said, it's just that I don't see it as a reason for God to judge America over and above other countries. Are we worse because we had a period of 300 years (roughly 1650-1950) where we were primarily Christian (albeit a VERY legalistic Christianity) than a country that was pagan for those 300 years? Will God be more upset by apostacy, or by the beheading of Christians?

Does God say, "Mohmahd beheads Christians. Fred downloads porn. I think I'll smite Fred."?

It's not only the USA that is being judged OhhJim. It's just that it has finally touched our nation again since 9-11. God IS going to judge hearts, and unfortunately it has to be through disasters in a nation. Look at Israel for example. Judgment...repentance....sin again..over and over again. Same with here. Disasters seem to be the only thing that gets peoples attention, that something other then the "natural' could be doing this. It has raised questions even among the lost world...which is good. It is going to take a lot more to get the Christians attention. We are to divided on our schools of thought on these things, and I believe that the time is coming soon, when there will not be any doubt who is controlling these events. As the bible says..all things work to the good..................

 

[Critias]

I agree with pretty much all that you said, it's just that I don't see it as a reason for God to judge America over and above other countries. Are we worse because we had a period of 300 years (roughly 1650-1950) where we were primarily Christian (albeit a VERY legalistic Christianity) than a country that was pagan for those 300 years? Will God be more upset by apostacy, or by the beheading of Christians?

Does God say, "Mohmahd beheads Christians. Fred downloads porn. I think I'll smite Fred."?

Let's look at it from this perspective and tell me what you think.

Iran kills anyone who preaches Christ crucified or anyone who is a Christian or coverts to Christianity. Does this help or hinder the spreading of the Gospel?

USA claims to be a Christian Nation. Under the disguise of "Christian" it preaches that Jesus Christ is not the Only Way to Salvation. It also teaches that many things in the Bible are false. The Old Testament is just a myth, God never pursued man like it is written. God didn't create the world in six days. God didn't judge man by a flood. God didn't send His Only Son. His Only Son didn't die on a cross, it was someone else. The disciples stole Jesus' Body, He never resurrected. Jesus is not coming back to judge the living and dead.

All these teachings coming from people who claim they are Christians. Does this help or hinder the spreading of the True Gospel?

Who would you be more angry at: the one has always been against Christians or the one who claims to be a Christian to destroy Christianity from the inside?

Rome wasn't defeated from any other nation. Rome was defeated from the inside out. We are always warned of the wolf in sheep's clothing. Apostacy is a greater threat to Christianity that Muslim.

Always in times of trouble, Christianity has spread like wildfire. China is a great example of this, so is the 1st to 5th Century A.D.

Whether or not God is judging us may not be the correct way to look at it. Rather it might be better to look at it as God allowing us to be humbled because we are too complacent in our beliefs therefore allowing Apostacy to rise without challenge.

 

[Critias]

Something else you might want to check out: Habakkuk.

Habakkuk pleads with God to stop turning His eyes away from the evil things the Judah Nation is doing. God replies and says He is going to judge them. So, God bring Babylon to destroy Judah.

Habakkuk cannot believe that God would use Babylon to destroy Judah. Habakkuk says to God that even in Judah's sin, it is more righteous than Babylon. Babylon was the worst of any Nation, yet God uses them to judge Judah. God also says later He will judge Babylon.

 

[Big Mouth Nana]

Whether or not God is judging us may not be the correct way to look at it. Rather it might be better to look at it as God allowing us to be humbled because we are too complacent in our beliefs therefore allowing Apostacy to rise without challenge.

I would have to say that "allowing us to be humbled" is about the same thing as judging. If we were right with God in this nation, I do not believe that we would be witnessing the events taking place. I believe that our protective covering has been removed, and all bets are off at this point on what God is going to allow to humble us. I DO believe that humbling is what is going on.

 

[Critias]

I would have to say that "allowing us to be humbled" is about the same thing as judging. If we were right with God in this nation, I do not believe that we would be witnessing the events taking place. I believe that our protective covering has been removed, and all bets are off at this point on what God is going to allow to humble us. I DO believe that humbling is what is going on.

I agree, but I think sometimes, we as people, need to take a different perspective to come to the same conclusion.

 

[Jipsah]

Iran kills anyone who preaches Christ crucified or anyone who is a Christian or coverts to Christianity. Does this help or hinder the spreading of the Gospel?

Is this one of those "let us do evil that good may come" deals? Or is croaking Christians a good thing?

You might also want to note that Iran and the rest of the "dar al Islam" peddle the vile lie that is Mohammedanism, thus duping millions into a wretched death without Christ. But that doens't signify, does it?

USA claims to be a Christian Nation.

Not really. The concept is silly anyway. The US is a political entity, not a person, and can therefore be no more Christian than is a radial tire.

Under the disguise of "Christian" it preaches that Jesus Christ is not the Only Way to Salvation.

The US preaches that? I've never heard of such a thing. A good many Americans preach that, but the gov't is at best silent on the matter.

It also teaches that many things in the Bible are false. The Old Testament is just a myth, God never pursued man like it is written. God didn't create the world in six days. God didn't judge man by a flood. God didn't send His Only Son. His Only Son didn't die on a cross, it was someone else. The disciples stole Jesus' Body, He never resurrected. Jesus is not coming back to judge the living and dead.

I'be mever heard the US teach any such things, even in the most repellent of gov't schools. Where are you getting this stuff?

All these teachings coming from people who claim they are Christians. Does this help or hinder the spreading of the True Gospel?

Does this mean the we should take up killing Christians? Or can we just ship them off to China where it can be done cheaper?

Rome wasn't defeated from any other nation.

Well, yeah, it was. It was defeated by Carthage, the Vandals, and the Goths. They weren't all that great shakes militarily in their latter days.

The US is just another empire. Yeah, I know, that's an unpatriotic thing to say, and Christians is all supposed to be true Red, White & Blue by-jingo sho-nuff right-down-to-the-bone American patriots. But the US is still just another empire, and one of these days it'll go the way of all the empires that came before it. Then some place like China (probably China) will take our place, and the world will spin on. That's OK, God loves the Chinese as much as He does us, and on the whole they're no better or worse than we are, and the Lord can and will use them to accomplish His purposes just like He did us.

 

[Critias]

Is this one of those "let us do evil that good may come" deals? Or is croaking Christians a good thing?

When Christians are made to suffer, then Christianity flourishes. It is not supporting evil so good may come, but God does make good out of what evil that has happened.

You might also want to note that Iran and the rest of the "dar al Islam" peddle the vile lie that is Mohammedanism, thus duping millions into a wretched death without Christ. But that doens't signify, does it?

I was just making a point that when people persecute Christians, Christianity tends to spread.

Not really. The concept is silly anyway. The US is a political entity, not a person, and can therefore be no more Christian than is a radial tire.

My apologies. I wasn't thinking you were going to take me overal literally. Let me clarify that I mean people as a whole in the US, not the coutry as in the government.

The US preaches that? I've never heard of such a thing. A good many Americans preach that, but the gov't is at best silent on the matter.

Sigh, as I said before. Many people in the US preach that.

I'be mever heard the US teach any such things, even in the most repellent of gov't schools. Where are you getting this stuff?

Experience, observance. People do preach these things and teach these teachings. Maybe you don't see this. All you would have to do is take some time and look around this whole Christian Forum place and you can see some of these teachings here.

C/E forum has people teaching Genesis is a myth, and very few that OT is all mythical. At one point, there was a couple who were teaching that Jesus wasn't conceived by the Holy Spirit but rather by rape, thus He was sinful.

Just look around and you will see.

Does this mean the we should take up killing Christians? Or can we just ship them off to China where it can be done cheaper?

I'm sorry, what kind of answer is this? I asked if you think those teachings help spread the Gospel. I didn't advocate killing anyone.

I don't understand this behavior you have displayed.

Well, yeah, it was. It was defeated by Carthage, the Vandals, and the Goths. They weren't all that great shakes militarily in their latter days.

The US is just another empire. Yeah, I know, that's an unpatriotic thing to say, and Christians is all supposed to be true Red, White & Blue by-jingo sho-nuff right-down-to-the-bone American patriots. But the US is still just another empire, and one of these days it'll go the way of all the empires that came before it. Then some place like China (probably China) will take our place, and the world will spin on. That's OK, God loves the Chinese as much as He does us, and on the whole they're no better or worse than we are, and the Lord can and will use them to accomplish His purposes just like He did us.

That's fine. I am just reiterating what Peter teaches in 2 Peter. The wolf in sheeps clothing does more damage than a wolf seen by the sheep approaching.

If you disagree that's fine.

 

[OhhJim]

Jipsah said pretty much what I would have. My position is that God doesn't deal with Nations at this point, but with individuals. I believe that the only time God ever dealt with Nations is with Israel and those nations who had a relationship with Israel. I don't have one, and my nation's relationship with Israel is pretty good, and I approve of that.

Let me quote Ezekiel 14:


"[size=-1]14:12[/size]The word of the LORD came again to me, saying, [size=-1]14:13[/size]Son of man, when the land sinneth against me by trespassing grievously, then will I stretch out mine hand upon it, and will break the staff of the bread thereof, and will send famine upon it, and will cut off man and beast from it: [size=-1]14:14[/size]Though these three men, Noah, Daniel, and Job, were in it, they should deliver but their own souls by their righteousness, saith the Lord GOD. [size=-1]14:15[/size]If I cause noisome beasts to pass through the land, and they spoil it, so that it be desolate, that no man may pass through because of the beasts: [size=-1]14:16[/size]Though these three men were in it, as I live, saith the Lord GOD, they shall deliver neither sons nor daughters; they only shall be delivered, but the land shall be desolate. "

This looks like it says God will deal with individuals, delivering the righteous ones, and punishing the guilty. If Noah, Daniel and Job can't save their nation, how can you and I save America?

 

[Reazzurro90]

I think the Babylon of Revelation is the city of Babylon itself, in modern Iraq. A lot of it is because Old Testament prophecy on Babylon has not been fufilled.
Babylon, the jewel of kingdoms,
the glory of the Babylonians' pride,
will be overthrown by God
like Sodom and Gomorrah. (Isaiah 13:19)

Sodom and Gomorrah. Wow, that's a pretty rough charge. Let's inspect this more, by literally taking a look into Sodom and Gomorrah's fall.

By the time Lot reached Zoar, the sun had risen over the land. 24 Then the LORD rained down burning sulfur on Sodom and Gomorrah—from the LORD out of the heavens.

Early the next morning Abraham got up and returned to the place where he had stood before the LORD. 28 He looked down toward Sodom and Gomorrah, toward all the land of the plain, and he saw dense smoke rising from the land, like smoke from a furnace. (Genesis 19:23-24, 27-28)


So, basically, fire came down from heaven and overwhelmed the cities. Has Babylon itself ever experienced such a destructive force - absolutely not! Babylon in Iraq suffered from neglect, and was deserted. But it never actually suffered a hard fall like Sodom and Gomorrah. In fact, people still live there. The city of Hillah, for example, is entirely made of the Babylonian ruins, and sits right upon the ruins itself. People still live there in other words!

Therefore in one day her plagues will overtake her:
death, mourning and famine.
She will be consumed by fire,
for mighty is the Lord God who judges her. (Revelation 18:8)

Fire, just like Sodom and Gomorrah were consumed by.

Also, one may want to take into consideration the various fascinations of the Old Testament Babylon prophecies (Isaiah 13, 47, and Jeremiah 50-51) with Revelation 18.

 

[Big Mouth Nana]

I think the Babylon of Revelation is the city of Babylon itself, in modern Iraq. A lot of it is because Old Testament prophecy on Babylon has not been fufilled.

YES IT HAS. JEREMIAH 51:61-64 And Jeremiah said to Seraiah, When thou comest to Babylon, and shalt see, and shalt read all these words;
62 Then shalt thou say, O LORD, thou hast spoken against this place, to cut it off, that none shall remain in it, neither man nor beast, but that it shall be desolate for ever.63 And it shall be, when thou hast made an end of reading this book, that thou shalt bind a stone to it, and cast it into the midst of Euphrates: SIGNIFYING FINALITY OF A PERPETUAL JUDGMENT OF GOD
64 And thou shalt say, thus shall Babylon sink, and shall not rise from the evil that I will bring upon her: and they shall be weary. Thus far are the words of Jeremiah. IT IS STILL DESOLATE TO THIS DAY. ANCIENT BABYLON SITS ABOUT 60 MILES FROM BAGHDAD. SADDAM TRIED TO RESURRECT IT, BUT DIDN'T COMPLETE IT...LOOK AT WHAT HAPPENED TO HIM AND THE BOMBING THAT OUR NATION DID TO THAT COUNTRY. PROPHECY HAPPENING WAS MISSED BY THE CHURCH DURING THAT WAR.
IT ALSO SAYS THAT BABYLON WILL HAVE PERPETUAL DESOLATIONS. PERPETUAL MEANING CONTINUOUS...Jeremiah 25:9&12 ~ Behold, I will send and take all the families of the north, saith the LORD, and Nebuchadrezzar the king of Babylon, my servant, and will bring them against this land, and against the inhabitants thereof, and against all these nations round about, and will utterly destroy them, and make them an astonishment, and an hissing, and perpetual desolations. 12) And it shall come to pass, when seventy years are accomplished, that I will punish the king of Babylon, and that nation, saith the LORD, for their iniquity, and the land of the Chaldeans, and will make it PERPETUAL desolations.THIS IS GOING TO CARRY OVER TO MODERN DAY BABYLON IN REV 18...DESTROYED IN ONE HOUR...PERPETUAL DESOLATION UNTIL TAKEN OUT FOR GOOD.