US police have killed 602 in 2017

tulc

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I think those people are smart enough to recognize sarcasm.
Wait...are you saying you're just here trolling this thread? You don't actually believe the things you posted? Isn't that against CF rules? :scratch:

But hey let's get back to the OP topic and how bad police are because they shoot people.
Could you point out where it says that's the reason for this thread in the OP? Because I don't see that anywhere in there. :wave:
tulc(thinks AvilaSurfer may be seeing something that's not actually there) :sorry:
 
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tulc

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AvilaSurfer

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Wait...are you saying you're just here trolling this thread? You don't actually believe the things you posted? Isn't that against CF rules? :scratch:


Could you point out where it says that's the reason for this thread in the OP? Because I don't see that anywhere in there. :wave:
tulc(thinks AvilaSurfer may be seeing something that's not actually there) :sorry:
I understand the overwhelming need to get the last word in, and I have sympathy. At this point it's just fun to watch.
 
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tulc

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I understand the overwhelming need to get the last word in, and I have sympathy. At this point it's just fun to watch.
I notice you didn't answer the questions. :wave:
tulc(can repost them if AvilaSurfer needs him too)
 
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Steve Petersen

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How many should they have killed?

steve(is just wondering)
 
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Motherofkittens

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I think those people are smart enough to recognize sarcasm. But hey let's get back to the OP topic and how bad police are because they shoot people.
You sound really defensive. Why?
 
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Motherofkittens

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Because I think this is a stupid thread started by someone who just wants to make police forces look bad.
It's okay to criticize an organization. It doesn't mean they are horrible or monsters, it just means they need to work on one or a few things. I love cops, they are such unsung hero's. Without them we'd have no good society. I am so thankful there are people willing to sacrifice their lives to keep society safe. Truly amazing people.

However, some of them are prejudiced and/or use unnecessary or too much force. We need to help them correct themselves or fire them.
 
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Motherofkittens

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And you think constantly posting these shooting statistics accomplishes that. Well, ok.
I think it brings awareness. We need to be realistic and this is helping pointing out reality. There are problems that must be fixed.

I also think we should start seriously talking about giving cops better wages. Obviously they deserve it and perhaps they won't be so angry and lash out because they are literally potentially putting their lives on the line everyday for bad pay. Thank goodness police have unions, but they need to be more aggressive for the cops. And we need to give more of our taxes to police stations so that they can get excellent training (which is lacking now) on how to properly handle each individual situation.
 
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bhsmte

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It's okay to criticize an organization. It doesn't mean they are horrible or monsters, it just means they need to work on one or a few things. I love cops, they are such unsung hero's. Without them we'd have no good society. I am so thankful there are people willing to sacrifice their lives to keep society safe. Truly amazing people.

However, some of them are prejudiced and/or use unnecessary or too much force. We need to help them correct themselves or fire them.
Agree. There are prejudiced peopls in all professions though. In fact to me, tainting an entire group in this manner, is showing prejudice. The point several have tried to make is this; broad brushing by giving raw numbers, is pointless and completely disrepectful to the majority of cops who do good work. I think most reasonable people agree, cops deal with many dangerous people everyday, who have guns and the vast majority of these shootings, are justified. The ones that are not justified, should have the officers held responsible and prosecuted. In a nation of 300 million and almost as many guns in the hands of civilians and many civilians who pose a legitimate risk in their behavior, how many people would you expect police to kill in the line of duty?
 
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Motherofkittens

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Agree. There are prejudiced peopls in all professions though. In fact to me, tainting an entire group in this manner, is showing prejudice. The point several have tried to make is this; broad brushing by giving raw numbers, is pointless and completely disrepectful to the majority of cops who do good work. I think most reasonable people agree, cops deal with many dangerous people everyday, who have guns and the vast majority of these shootings, are justified. The ones that are not justified, should have the officers held responsible and prosecuted. In a nation of 300 million and almost as many guns in the hands of civilians and many civilians who pose a legitimate risk in their behavior, how many people would you expect police to kill in the line of duty?
I expect the police not to shoot when someone is clearly not a danger to anyone. How many less that is than now? I don't know.

Most everyone is prejudiced (we learn it as well as we learn our first language. Including minorities prejudiced against minorities. Even to their own group. Females are almost exactly sexist against females as males are. And it makes sense. We all get the same message from society . Of course it is easier for a minority to realize prejudices agansit their group is unfounded because they know it is. But that doesn't necessary mean they will. It is just easier than someone outside their group) however some professions cause more harm to minorities than other professions. A bank (and this does happen too often) can give a minority a bad loan just for being a minority, a teacher (and this does happen too often) can give a minority a bad grade just for being a minority. I'm not minimizing how awful and potentially life changing for the worse it is but cops help put innocent or non-violent minorities to 25-life in prison and to death row to killing them just for being a minority. That's some of the worse you can do. But I do agree, we should point out everyone else who's prejudiced. It is certainly not just cops.

And a good thing to pont out is that it isn't just a few bad cops always, there are whole bad police stations. It is really devastating to certain communities. And it needs to be fixed. Agos ago!
 
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tulc

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tulc, let me ask again: how many should they have killed?
I'm not sure I understand the question, are you asking me what number of people it would be acceptable for the police to kill? On average they kill about 3 people a day, this month it's grown to about 4 a day. Are you asking do I think 3 a day is ok but 4 may be a little excessive? Could you expand your question by telling me how many you think they should have killed and then I could have some idea of what you're trying to find out?
tulc(is just wondering)
 
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AvilaSurfer

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tulc, let me ask again: how many should they have killed?
It's probably a floating number. Enough to keep posting updates constantly so we all know how bad the police are.
 
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bhsmte

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I expect the police not to shoot when someone is clearly not a danger to anyone. How many less that is than now? I don't know.

Most everyone is prejudiced (we learn it as well as we learn our first language. Including minorities prejudiced against minorities. Even to their own group. Females are almost exactly sexist against females as males are. And it makes sense. We all get the same message from society . Of course it is easier for a minority to realize prejudices agansit their group is unfounded because they know it is. But that doesn't necessary mean they will. It is just easier than someone outside their group) however some professions cause more harm to minorities than other professions. A bank (and this does happen too often) can give a minority a bad loan just for being a minority, a teacher (and this does happen too often) can give a minority a bad grade just for being a minority. I'm not minimizing how awful and potentially life changing for the worse it is but cops help put innocent or non-violent minorities to 25-life in prison and to death row to killing them just for being a minority. That's some of the worse you can do. But I do agree, we should point out everyone else who's prejudiced. It is certainly not just cops.

And a good thing to pont out is that it isn't just a few bad cops always, there are whole bad police stations. It is really devastating to certain communities. And it needs to be fixed. Agos ago!

I agree with what some of of what you say and I believe your posts in general are well thought out and display a good level of common sense.

With that said, do you agree on the following:

-cops are faced with dangerous situations?
-most cops display good judgement?
-most of the killings that happen with police, are justified, considering the circumstances?

Now, if you were a cop and you saw others simply stating how many people cops kill in the line of duty simply for effect, how would it make you feel?

Let me give an analogy that I have given before in regards to the same. Thousands of people die every year in hospitals, when they are being treated by doctors. Not unlike cops being confronted with dangerous people, the patients that come into the hospital, can be gravely ill and no matter how the doctor treats them, they will likely die. Now, since doctors are human, just as cops are human, some of those deaths may in fact be from poor decision making from the doctor, just as some of the killings by cops, are from poor decision making. With a human element, faced with difficult situations, you are never going to achieve 100% success in how humans react, ever.

Now, the goal should be, to get as close to 100% as you possibly can, knowing perfection is not part of the equation involving humans. So, what good comes out of tainting all the doctors and hospitals, by me stating the raw number of people who die in hospitals? The answer is obvious, none? In fact, it will only cause push back and divide from those who are doing good work and animosity.

Intelligent people realize we are dealing with humans, not robots and instead, focus on those deaths, whether they be in the hospital or from police, that appear to be a problem and they are thoroughly investigated to determine what could have been done differently. This way, doctors and cops can learn from mistakes and those who were negligent in their actions, can be held accountable.

That is how I see it.
 
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Motherofkittens

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I agree with what some of of what you say and I believe your posts in general are well thought out and display a good level of common sense.

With that said, do you agree on the following:

-cops are faced with dangerous situations?
-most cops display good judgement?
-most of the killings that happen with police, are justified, considering the circumstances?

Now, if you were a cop and you saw others simply stating how many people cops kill in the line of duty simply for effect, how would it make you feel?

Let me give an analogy that I have given before in regards to the same. Thousands of people die every year in hospitals, when they are being treated by doctors. Not unlike cops being confronted with dangerous people, the patients that come into the hospital, can be gravely ill and no matter how the doctor treats them, they will likely die. Now, since doctors are human, just as cops are human, some of those deaths may in fact be from poor decision making from the doctor, just as some of the killings by cops, are from poor decision making. With a human element, faced with difficult situations, you are never going to achieve 100% success in how humans react, ever.

Now, the goal should be, to get as close to 100% as you possibly can, knowing perfection is not part of the equation involving humans. So, what good comes out of tainting all the doctors and hospitals, by me stating the raw number of people who die in hospitals? The answer is obvious, none? In fact, it will only cause push back and divide from those who are doing good work and animosity.

Intelligent people realize we are dealing with humans, not robots and instead, focus on those deaths, whether they be in the hospital or from police, that appear to be a problem and they are thoroughly investigated to determine what could have been done differently. This way, doctors and cops can learn from mistakes and those who were negligent in their actions, can be held accountable.

That is how I see it.
I do believe in the US doctor error is the leading cause of death. Or at least a close second. Hospitals love covering it up. That should be fixed as well. Yes, I agree with all those statements. Generalzing in general is usually bad (except for this statement. Obviously. )I don't think we should be saying "all cops" but we should point out certain bad police stations. Because those do exist. So we should be more particular and say this police station/s in Ferguson or wherever is exhibiting racism at an extreme level . I only have limited second habd information about institutional racism and it is horrific. For the people saying "cops" it really is all the cops they know.

Which is worse, being a little bit sloppy in language or denying that institutional racism or at least systematic racism by cops exists? To me I don't really care about the first because it does very little harm but the latter does do serious harm. To complain about the first seems so petty when we have such horrible institutional racism to deal with.
 
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bhsmte

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I do believe in the US doctor error is the leading cause of death. Or at least a close second. Hospitals love covering it up. That should be fixed as well. Yes, I agree with all those statements. Generalzing in general is usually bad (except for this statement. Obviously. )I don't think we should be saying "all cops" but we should point out certain bad police stations. Because those do exist. So we should be more particular and say this police station/s in Ferguson or wherever is exhibiting racism at an extreme level . I only have limited second habd information about institutional racism and it is horrific. For the people saying "cops" it really is all the cops they know.

Which is worse, being a little bit sloppy in language or denying that institutional racism or at least systematic racism by cops exists? To me I don't really care about the first because it does very little harm but the latter does do serious harm. To complain about the first seems so petty when we have such horrible institutional racism to deal with.

Broad brushing to get a point across about a problem, is never a good ideal and in fact, can be prejudiced and even racist in and of itself.

Each situation that one claims to be wrong, should be handled individually and evidence discovered to show wrong actions, racism, etc...

We live in a society, were it is acceptable to cry racism first and ask questions later and that is just an unacceptable, as racism itself.
 
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