Universalism VS. Scripture

[Mailman Dan]

Why doesn't scripture agree with the teaching that everyone goes to heaven?

Please explain why the following verses go directly against the teachings are false.


(this scripture shows the depth of judgement, and clearly states not everyone has eternal life)
1 John 3:15

Anyone who hates his brother is a murderer, and you know that no murderer has eternal life in him.


(this scripture states the fate of those not in Christ, with the "lake of fire" given a description of)


1 Corinthians 6:9-10

Or know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with men,
nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God.


(again.. No mention of the word hell, but a complete outline for the lake of fire exist in this chapter)


Revelation 21:8
But the cowardly, unbelieving, abominable, murderers, sexually immoral, sorcerers, idolaters, and all liars shall have their part in the lake which burns with fire and brimstone, which is the second death.”


(next)

The rich man who found himself in hell (Luke 16:19–31) was conscious. He was able to feel pain, to thirst, and to experience remorse. He wasn’t asleep in the grave; he was in a place of "torment." If hell is a place of knowing nothing or a reference to the grave into which we go at death, Jesus' statements about hell make no sense.


(Jesus following statement)


He said that if your hand, foot, or eye causes you to sin, it would be better to remove it than to "go into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched: where their worm dies not, and the fire is not quenched" (Mark 9:43–48).


(The Bible refers to the fate of the unsaved with such fearful words as the following)


"Shame and everlasting contempt" (Daniel 12:2)


"Everlasting punishment" (Mathew 25:46)


"Weeping and gnashing of teeth" (Matthew 24:51)(several times in fact)


"Fire unquenchable" (Luke 3:17)


"Indignation and wrath, tribulation and anguish" (Romans 2:8,9)


"Everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord" (2 Thessalonians 1:9)
"Eternal fire...the blackness of darkness for ever" (Jude 7,13)


(very clear message)
Revelation 14:10,11 tells us the final, eternal destiny of the sinner: "He shall be tormented with fire and brimstone...the smoke of their torment ascended up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day or night."


That’s why the Bible warns that it is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God. Without judgement, there's no fear. Scripture makes it clear that God is going to give to everyone according to what they have done.


The existence of hell and the surety of the judgment are not the claims of fallible man. The Bible is the source of the claim, and it is utterly infallible. When someone becomes a Christian, he is admitting that he was in the wrong, and that God is justified in His declarations that we have sinned against Him.


Why do you believe the bible is wrong on this issue?





Dan~~~>trying to understand the reasoning behind universalism

 

[ebia]

All of those are attempts to describe our potential fate, but we know that Christ can save us from that.

The difference between Universalists and the rest isn't what is the fate of those Christ doesn't save, but whether or not Christ can succeed in saving all or only some.

 

[QuantaCura]

All of those are attempts to describe our potential fate, but we know that Christ can save us from that.

The difference between Universalists and the rest isn't what is the fate of those Christ doesn't save, but whether or not Christ can succeed in saving all or only some.

Do universalists believe in a temporary Hell for some or does everyone just go straight to Heaven?

 

[ebia]

Do universalists believe in a temporary Hell for some or does everyone just go straight to Heaven?

Beats me - I'll leave God to sort out that one.

 

[flautist]

Depends on who you talk to, Quanta. I believe in a temporary "hell" but it is not a place of torture. It is a place where you see the harm you caused others and God. It is a place where you get all the proof of God's existence that you ever asked for. It is, in short, a place of correction and reflection. It is a sad place, but even in that place, there exists hope and happiness, because you know that you are drawing ever closer to God, and will eventually live with him for all eternity.

(Of course, this could change for me... I've been doing a lot of reading on this subject and only came to the belief of universalism about a month ago, so I'm still learning.)

 

[Mailman Dan]

believe in a temporary "hell" but it is not a place of torture. It is a place where you see the harm you caused others and God. It is a place where you get all the proof of God's existence that you ever asked for. It is, in short, a place of correction and reflection. It is a sad place, but even in that place, there exists hope and happiness, because you know that you are drawing ever closer to God, and will eventually live with him for all eternity.

Please tell me on what grounds people have his belief. I want to know if they are reading something that tells them this, or if its just an idea.

Jesus said what does it profit a man to gain the world, yet lose his own soul. If someoneone couldn't lose their soul, what was the point?

Dan~~~>really wants to know were the doctrines come from

 

[ebia]

Please tell me on what grounds people have his belief. I want to know if they are reading something that tells them this, or if its just an idea.

Jesus said what does it profit a man to gain the world, yet lose his own soul. If someoneone couldn't lose their soul, what was the point?

Could does not equal will.
Could not does not equal will not.

It can be possible for someone to lose their soul and yet that not happen to anyone.

 

[Chrysalis Kat]

Why doesn't scripture agree with the teaching that everyone goes to heaven?
Please explain why the following verses go directly against the teachings are false.

Dan, if you would spend the same amount of time reading through the information on http://www.tentmaker.org/ as you do asking the same questions over and over you would have all the answers to your questions. Every question you bring up is addressed throughly there. You've partipated in these threads for months and despite what has been explained you are still asking the same questions and making the same accusations.
There is no way universalism is going to jive with your present interpertations of select scriptures. We've established that. If you really want to understand universalism then please spend some time actually studying it. When you do that you can come back and tell us why you accept it or not. Either way is fine if you at least do it a with an honest understanding rather than continuing to be confused about what universalism does and does not claim.

 

[Mailman Dan]

Dan, if you would spend the same amount of time reading through the information on http://www.tentmaker.org/ as you do asking the same questions over and over you would have all the answers to your questions. Every question you bring up is addressed throughly there. You've partipated in these threads for months and despite what has been explained you are still asking the same questions and making the same accusations.

Why do you trust a web site over scripture? And no, not a single person has yet to explain why these verses are wrong. I'm looking for the basis for univeralism, and the answer to why the bible repeatedly warns of judgement, (most of that scripture I didn't even list) if there is no punishment.

There is no way universalism is going to jive with your present interpertations of select scriptures. We've established that. If you really want to understand universalism then please spend some time actually studying it. When you do that you can come back and tell us why you accept it or not. Either way is fine if you at least do it a with an honest understanding rather than continuing to be confused about what universalism does and does not claim.

I have read many post here on that subject. They often pop up in this forum. (go figure) I've already stated why it's not acceptable based on the bible. I now what to know why it is an acceptable doctrine and what the core of that belief rest on.

Dan~~~>always happy to see when you post in one of his threads

 

[Chrysalis Kat]

Why do you trust a web site over scripture? And no, not a single person has yet to explain why these verses are wrong. I'm looking for the basis for univeralism, and the answer to why the bible repeatedly warns of judgement, (most of that scripture I didn't even list) if there is no punishment.



I have read many post here on that subject. They often pop up in this forum. (go figure) I've already stated why it's not acceptable based on the bible. I now what to know why it is an acceptable doctrine and what the core of that belief rest on.

Dan~~~>always happy to see when you post in one of his threads

You've only stated (again and again) that universalism isn't acceptable based upon the interpertations/understanding that you hold of scriptures. You have not shown why your interpertation makes universalism invalid nor that universalism isn't biblically supported.
I mention the Tentmaker site because it is an excellent presentation of the principles of universalism and why universalism is not only compatable with the bible but how it is directly derived from scripture.
So Dan . . it's not a matter of chosing to believe a website over scripture at all. It's a matter of how scripture is understood as opposed to accepting common misconceptions/misinterpetations/fear based teachings without careful, prayerful consideration and study.
Feel free to ultimately reject universalism but please do it because you took the time to truly understand it first.

 

[stumpjumper]

Dan

This is the problem with quoting scripture after scripture without following a coherent interpretation. Scripture has been used to justify massa damnata, slavery, grace by works, grace by faith, and a whole other slew of doctrines. There are many passages that warn of judgement and punishment. You quoted 1 John about those who do not know love do not know God. Later on in 1 John you will read: "Beloved, let us love one another, because love is of God; everyone who loves is begotten by God and knows God. Whoever is without love does not know God; for God is love."

There are no limits on God's love. Dare I underestimate the power of God's love and His power to conquer all hardened hearts. You read the warnings and view them as predictions. The warnings are there for a reason because there are consequences for sins in this life and in the next. A souls journery does not end in physical death for we see that Christ conquered death.

By viewing these passages as predictions that some or many will perish in the fires of hell is passing judgement on your fellow man. We are taught to judge not. In the words of St. Paul "But with me it is a very small thing that I should be judged by you or any human court. I do not even judge myself."

Paul does not judge himself because he knows that God is the sole judge of humanity and it is obviously God's will that all come to repentence and peace. Later Paul says "Work out your salvation with fear and trembling for God is at work in you, both to will and to work for his good pleasure."

No one knows if all will be saved and find peace with God. There is no such place as hell that I am quite sure of however. Hell is a state that we place ourselves in by our actions in this life and by our reaction to God's presence. I do not judge my self or others but I expect that God's presence and love is powerful enough to break down the barriers that we all put up. Even some like you Dan who would like to exclude certain groups of people from God's grace. Let us all be like Dysmas the thief to left of Christ and look to God alone for our salvation and follow him to paradise.

 

[AionOlam]

There are no limits on God's love. Dare I underestimate the power of God's love and His power to conquer all hardened hearts. You read the warnings and view them as predictions. The warnings are there for a reason because there are consequences for sins in this life and in the next. A souls journery does not end in physical death for we see that Christ conquered death.

By viewing these passages as predictions that some or many will perish in the fires of hell is passing judgement on your fellow man. We are taught to judge not. In the words of St. Paul "But with me it is a very small thing that I should be judged by you or any human court. I do not even judge myself."

Paul does not judge himself because he knows that God is the sole judge of humanity and it is obviously God's will that all come to repentence and peace. Later Paul says "Work out your salvation with fear and trembling for God is at work in you, both to will and to work for his good pleasure."

No one knows if all will be saved and find peace with God. There is no such place as hell that I am quite sure of however. Hell is a state that we place ourselves in by our actions in this life and by our reaction to God's presence. I do not judge my self or others but I expect that God's presence and love is powerful enough to break down the barriers that we all put up. Even some like you Dan who would like to exclude certain groups of people from God's grace. Let us all be like Dysmas the thief to left of Christ and look to God alone for our salvation and follow him to paradise.

Stump Jumper - your post is beautifully worded. Thank you for sharing this wisdom.

AO

 

[truegrace]

Another thing that you might be doing, Dan, in your consideration of Jesus' teachings on hell, is applying warnings that He gave specifically to that generation to every generation. In this regard, even Jesus stated that, at that time, He came only for the Jews. Many of His teachings and warnings on this subject are probably toward that generation that should have saved themselves from impending doom.

There are alot of scriptural references that say, either directly or indirectly, that God would redeem His entire creation. They are there for the finding. But we can also find scriptures that seem to teach the church's orthodox view of hell, also.

The key for me was trying to figure out, when all is said and done, whether death or life would reign forevermore. The overwhelming view in the scriptures is that death will be abolished. Christ conquered it at His resurrection and the Bible says that it will someday be destroyed. That cannot or will not happen if some are in what is commonly known as "eternal death."

truegrace

 

[Chrysalis Kat]

[pong]Welcome to CF Truegrace![/pong]

[pong]Welcome to CF Truegrace![/pong]

 

[Mailman Dan]

This is the problem with quoting scripture after scripture without following a following a coherent interpretation. Scripture has been used to justify massa damnata, slavery, grace by works, grace by faith, and a whole other slew of doctrines.

Show me why those verses are wrong, rather than ignoring them.


Matthew 25: 45-46
"He will reply, 'I tell you the truth, whatever you did not do for one of the least of these, you did not do for me.'"Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life."

John 3:36
Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life, but whoever rejects the Son will not see life, for God's wrath remains on him."

There are so many scriptures that warn that not everyone will have eternal life, yet that is denied. Why?

By viewing these passages as predictions that some or many will perish in the fires of hell is passing judgement on your fellow man. We are taught to judge not.

I judge that the bible is correct, not the word of man. Is this judgement?

Another thing that you might be doing, Dan, in your consideration of Jesus' teachings on hell, is applying warnings that He gave specifically to that generation to every generation.

So we should ignore the warnings Jesus gave, because they no longer mean anything? Why would "this" generation get better treatment, even through we are far more wicked?

The overwhelming view in the scriptures is that death will be abolished. Christ conquered it at His resurrection and the Bible says that it will someday be destroyed. That cannot or will not happen if some are in what is commonly known as "eternal death."

Scripture does state the second death is the lake of fire, that holds no power over those in Christ.

Rev 20:14
Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. The lake of fire is the second death.

Revelation 21:8
But the cowardly, the unbelieving, the vile, the murderers, the sexually immoral, those who practice magic arts, the idolaters and all liars—their place will be in the fiery lake of burning sulfur. This is the second death."

Then the description of the lake of fire is given as well....


Rev 20:10
And the devil, who deceived them, was thrown into the lake of burning sulfur, where the beast and the false prophet had been thrown. They will be tormented day and night for ever and ever.


As long as someone only holds a half view of God, that of love, they will fail to see that God is also just, and going to give everyone according to what they have done.

Daniel 12:2
Multitudes who sleep in the dust of the earth will awake: some to everlasting life, others to shame and everlasting contempt.

So how much of the bible do you believe as a universalist?


Dan~~~>doesn't think one can hold that doctrine and believe all of scripture

 

[yoursXtruely]

I will first say that I'm not quite sure about Universalism (although I don't reject the possibility entirely-- in fact, I hope it is true), but I expect to see a lot more people in Heaven than many people do. Next,

Show me why those verses are wrong, rather than ignoring them.

Those verses are not wrong at all. It's just that the meaning gathered by those verses are based on human interpretation. The more you think that there is no interpretation of the Scriptures, the more you are only sheltering yourself from what could possibly be Truth. Do you really think that your theology is 100% correct? Do any of us really think so? I hope we aren't closing are minds to different possibilities of the greatness and love that God is simply because of our heritage and/or stubbornness

 

[Mailman Dan]

Those verses are not wrong at all. It's just that the meaning gathered by those verses are based on human interpretation. The more you think that there is no interpretation of the Scriptures, the more you are only sheltering yourself from what could possibly be Truth. Do you really think that your theology is 100% correct?

Let me be clear, I don't believe this is *MY* theology. I am pointing out what the bible says on the subject. It is not my *wish* for anyone to go to hell, reguardless of their actions. However, scripture paints the image of judgement with a punishment, and I haven't used nearly all the scriptures on the subject yet.

I hope we aren't closing are minds to different possibilities of the greatness and love that God is simply because of our heritage and/or stubbornness

Let me make the question abit more clear.

Universalist use the bible to say "God is all loving, so can never therefor punish someone for eternity."

I'm showing verses in the same bible that say God is a God of justice and judgement, who will punish those who don't turn from sin in the manner in which the bible states.

I believe God is a God of love, who died for us, but will punish those who don't turn from sin and repent. I base this on scripture.

Why is it right to trust the bible for 50% of your theology, then discount the rest of the teaching in the same book as mis-interpretations?


Dan~~~>has always believed it to be clear on every subject

 

[stumpjumper]

Show me why those verses are wrong, rather than ignoring them.

Dan I do not ignore any scripture or verses. Neither does any other universalist. Do you believe in grace by faith or works? Do you ignore 1 Corint 15:28 when Paul said that God will be "all in all"? That is scripture. How about 1 Timothy when Paul says that Christ is the savior of all men? That is scripture. How about 2 Peter where Peter says that God wants all to come to repentance? That is scripture.

Matthew 25: 45-46
"He will reply, 'I tell you the truth, whatever you did not do for one of the least of these, you did not do for me.'"Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life."

Dan, I'm going to be honest that I do not think you have a great handle on the New Testament. I could be wrong but your haphazard selection of scripture is troublesome. In the above passage, the author of Matthew was relaying that we will be judged by works. That our actions in this life make an impact upon our soul and that impact will be experinced now and in the next life. In Matthew it is also shown that the first will be last and the last shall be first.

John 3:36
Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life, but whoever rejects the Son will not see life, for God's wrath remains on him."

To know the Son is to know God as infinitely close. "Man knows the Father when he knows God as infinitely distant; man knows the Son when he knows God as infinitely close; man knows the Holy Spirit when he knows God as penetrating existence and history." (Karl Rahner)

Whoever believes in the Son believes in and knows God. We will all experience God's presence in His glory after we die. We will then know God as infinitely close but you can experience that presence now.

I judge that the bible is correct, not the word of man.

But you are a man and you are interpreting the Bible. Why is this so hard to understand. You are accepting your view of the writers intent as accurate. If you follow Calvinism I can tell you that you have about a 2% chance of being correct (2% was very liberal of me ).

Revelation and Daniel are Jewish apocalyptic texts and not predictions of the end times. Daniel was written to give an allegorical interpretation of the destruction of Solomon's temple and Rev. was written after the Romans destroyed Herod's temple in 70 ad. This is allegorical writing about historic events not a prediction of the future. If you really believe there is a "lake of fire" please tell us all where this physical lake exists in our universe.

I'll wait but I wonder if it is beyond the Kuyper belt

 

[Im_A]

Please tell me on what grounds people have his belief. I want to know if they are reading something that tells them this, or if its just an idea.

Jesus said what does it profit a man to gain the world, yet lose his own soul. If someoneone couldn't lose their soul, what was the point?

Dan~~~>really wants to know were the doctrines come from

since you seem to actually be asking questions, i'll say, that i finally see fruit/a point to have this discussion with you.

i'll give you some sights with verses. the one site is too big for me to past here, for that sake, i'm going to put things into links.

http://www.tentmaker.org/books/150reasons.html

http://www.tentmaker.org/tracts/Universalists.html-for traces of Christian Unversalism


here's my beliefs, and rather this represents universalists on a whole, well i'll guess we'll see.

to me, universalism is what we find after one brings all the Christian doctrine together. meaning, kind of the same way people that come to eternal torment and so forth. i just see major issues with eternal torment, as many others do, because of the confliction with other Christian doctrine, and in Christianity, a lot of stuff goes hand in hand, and in this area, it is a must.

universalism is not some idea that takes away from the Christian life. we're still required to have the Gospel affect our lives with good works/good deeds. it's not a pass go idea to go and sin it up. if anyone uses universalism for that, they should be ashamed of themselves.

there are some key points with universalism, at least to me.

1. the inability to bind God with our free-will.
2. the inability to know the full extent of God's love and forgiveness, which with that, it seem to only be logic that no one can fully comprehend such things on this earth.
3. God's justice.
4. God's Omnibevolance
5. God's Omnipotence
6. God's Omnipresence
7. The Great Commission

1a. i say that because many of us beleive we cannot control God. many believe that our free-will is not more powerful than God's Will. so to put this with 1 Timoth 2:4. "“Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.” and then can God's Will be changed? “He doeth according to his will in the army of heaven, and among the inhabitants of the earth; and none can stay his hand, or say unto him, What doest thou?” Daniel 4:35. “He worketh all things after the counsel of his own will.” Ephesian 1:11.

2a. scriptures tells us that God is above all understanding. and to quote Paul, "We see dimly through a mirror." and can you tell me, as a human being, you understand clearly how God's forgiveness and grace really works? all we can see as human beings is through Jesus Christ, why? because He was a human being. and to put in God's everlasting qualities, i feel safe to assume that God's grace, and forgiveness can be acheived in the afterlife. especially since God's characteristics and everything about Him, exists in the past, present and future, and this life and the next life.

3a. God's justice is clearly shown through the scriptures. we see stories showing us things in the Bible. whether we take them literal or metaphorical is pointless to me. the question i raise is, God's justice truly just, to make an eternal judgement over 70 plus years alive on this earth to get it right? sure time is not an issue for God. which makes perfect sense why God would give an eternity to get right with God again. i don't believe we can fully compare God's justice to our justice system or any kind of earthly justice system. our justice system is not based around the words of Christ. our justice system is not based on some infinite being. i'm not dissing our justice system. but there is no logical comparision to the courts today and the way justice is administered in the afterlife.

4a. God's omnibelovance must go beyond this life. it can't be conditional on the basis of eternal torment. cause God allowing that torment in the afterlife shows the point of love ending. even in the so called idea of punishment/justice. yes, God punishes those He loves, but for an eternity? please. God gives freely to all correct? so that means only in this life right? i don't buy it. because God's blessings and grace and forgiveness cannot be bound to the here and now, if He is truly all powerful.

5a. Omnipotence, all power, an unlimited amount of power correct? so what is to say that God is limited in power to bring all His creation back to Him? i mean, am i the only one that sees reaching the minority as nothing of being omnipotence?

6a. Omniprescence, all places at all time. we see the parables and metaphors that talk about seperation. but that conflicts with the quality of God. if we say, God cannot be around evil, then thus God's prescense cannot be in hell, and thus God has no omniprescence.

7a. The Great Commission is simple, as we all know, go and make disciples of Christ. being a disciple is the here and now correct? thus so much, if not everything would have to entail on the basis of the here and now. and we have every reason, even with universalism in mind to preach the good news. and another thing to add to this is, is evangelizing really about getting someone to some eternal dwelling? i don't believe so. Jesus brought the Kingdom of God to earth. which is why, i feel safe to assume, that eternity is starting now. and wouldn't the Great Commission be more fulfilled if the Gospel reaches everyone? and Christ going to hell/sheoul to preach to those in there, shows that there is hope, even in the afterlife.

“The Father loveth the Son, and hath given all things into his hand.” John 3:35.

then to...

“Thou has given him power over all flesh, that he should give eternal life to as many as thou has given him.” John 17:2.

Jesus did say, that He is the Way, the Truth and the Life, and no one come to the Father but through Him. that to me shows that in this life and the afterlife. and if i might add.

the fruits of the Spirit are things that we know that Spirit is in us, others and so on and so forth. well we can find Christians that resemble this. but oddly enough, we see the non-Christians with the fruits of the Spirit. now, can the fruits be seperate of the giver? i do not believe so. that's like saying that we can create something, but yet lose our patent on if you get my drift. the fruits of spirit are evident even in the pagans. this is not some hope of mine that i'm dreaming about. this is through experience. doing the best i can that Jesus did, be amongst the unbelivevers.

now to the verse that Jesus says about the narrow and the broad path. i fully see that as being for the here and now. we can see that clearly in the everyday life we live and see around us. i cannot see how that has to entail to the idea of the afterlife. eternal damnation, does that nesscarily mean in eternity? this is God's creation. His eternal spirit is here. and with that, i can for sure say that eternity begins now. can people live in eternal damnation in the here and now? yes. can people be redeemed in the here now? yes.

another problem i see is translation. we in the Western world use our language to fit into an eastern religion. that causes a lot of conflict, differences and such and thus for me, the resolution will never come, but i will believe as i believe.

and now let's bring up hell. i am on a fast track towards universalism, but is that to say that i dont' believe in hell? no. i'm not a super univeraslist if you will. one's disposition towards God will put them in hell or heaven, thus the fires of hell isn't actual flames burning our skin, or teeth gnashing away at me, but it would be the fact that one's disposition would be put a person into a state of hell. you will find that rather comparable to Eastern Orthodoxy.

well for now i'll end this here. i've been typing this out while doing other things, and being sure that i am clear with specific words and their meanings, and to fully explain the reasons why i have changed on this. like i said before dan, i used to believe in eternal damnation, was a great speaker of it. then in the time of studying the scriptures again, i couldn't help but start looking towards it, and now the more and more i research this out in the scriptures, and to combine that with Christian doctrine, i have no intentions on ever looking back, for it has greatly influenced my life for the better, and greatly influenced my faith for the better. God Bless you Dan! <><

and btw dan, i want to say thank you for creating this thread. i predict you will never change your views. you believe your views are set in scriptures, just as universalists do. but neither the case dan, i'm glad to see you create a thread and see you actually questions. i hope my link helps you to see where we see scriptures showing us this. i hope any quotation of scriptures here in this thread, helps you see at least why i, and maybe others view universalism as truth, not just some fairytale idea in wonderland. and again thank you for asking the questions. it helped me to keep to my promise to you that i made in another post that in time i would get everything together, cause i was starting to think that maybe it would be pointless, but thank you for proving that wrong and neither case, i trust that you are doing your best in your faith, and i am doing my best in my faith, just as others are doing the best they can in their faith, so i don't believe either way, one's opinion of these topics will demean us damnation or a time of being in hell. God Bless you Dan! <><

 

[FLANDIDLYANDERS]

Agreed.

I thought the whole point was that only Jesus can decide who knows him, and therefore only he can judge people. So I live under the assumption that Jesus wishes all to learn and live him, and all are in some way; because God wishes all to be saved and that we are commended to look for the good in all things.

Didn't think it was Universalism, just following Jesus is all.

Flan out.