Universalism VS. Scripture

[Mailman Dan]

Do you believe in grace by faith or works? Do you ignore 1 Corint 15:28 when Paul said that God will be "all in all"? That is scripture. How about 1 Timothy when Paul says that Christ is the savior of all men? That is scripture. How about 2 Peter where Peter says that God wants all to come to repentance? That is scripture.

Grace is by faith, but works will always follow in the heart of a servant. You can't claim to have faith in Christ, and then not make any effort to follow.

God will indeed be all in the hearts of believers, and He is the only way to be saved. I'd also point out the fact that you left off part of "God wants everyone to come to repentance." That part is true, however the first part of that verse wanred He didn't want anyone to perish. It would be a usless warning if that "couldn't happen."

Dan, I'm going to be honest that I do not think you have a great handle on the New Testament. I could be wrong but your haphazard selection of scripture is troublesome. In the above passage, the author of Matthew was relaying that we will be judged by works. That our actions in this life make an impact upon our soul and that impact will be experinced now and in the next life. In Matthew it is also shown that the first will be last and the last shall be first.

I'm not going to agrue about what my "handle" on the new testament is, as people who have spent years in studies probably won't agree with eachother. The auther of Matthew was writting the words of Jesus. Jesus seems to also show that works will follow in the heart of a true Christian. We are not saved by works, but it's a atural reaction to understanding what Christ did to follow Him. It also very clearly states "Eternal punishment," and since it was stated by Jesus, should carry some weight.

Whoever believes in the Son believes in and knows God. We will all experience God's presence in His glory after we die. We will then know God as infinitely close but you can experience that presence now.

Again, i'm not sure how you draw a belief that we will experience God's presence. The bible says that without righteousness, no man will see God. Of course, we can not obtain it through works, that rest in Christ alone.

If you really believe there is a "lake of fire" please tell us all where this physical lake exists in our universe.

Foolish argueument to get into. Where does heaven exist in our universe? God is not tied to a place or limit, nor can be contained in such. We can, so its beyond or thinking to speculate. We only know what the bible says about such places, and if you believe it to be the word of God, then it should be treated as truth.

Dan~~~>serioulsy enjoying this conversation

 

[Mailman Dan]

to me, universalism is what we find after one brings all the Christian doctrine together. meaning, kind of the same way people that come to eternal torment and so forth. i just see major issues with eternal torment, as many others do, because of the confliction with other Christian doctrine, and in Christianity, a lot of stuff goes hand in hand, and in this area, it is a must.

I will give you that eternal punishment is a bibical doctrine, that is not based on my ideas, but on scripture. I also believe that the love of God is also a doctrine that comes from scripture. I just don't believe there is a conflict between the two.

I believe God is holy, perfect, and just. It is that belief that allows me to follow both doctrines. If God is good, then by the very nature of good, He must punish evil. The amount of the good that comes from God, will be in line with justice. The more perfect God is, the less likely He can "over look" wickedness. If God is perfect, the He must, by nature, punish all evil.

This allows me to believe such verses as...

But the cowardly, the unbelieving, the vile, the murderers, the sexually immoral, those who practice magic arts, the idolaters and all liars—their place will be in the fiery lake of burning sulfur. This is the second death."

and..

Or know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with men,
nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God.

This also causes other doctrine to fall into place, such as why Christ died on the cross, as a payment for sin, and through Him alone we are saved.


This would be in contrast with this statement.

i feel safe to assume that God's grace, and forgiveness can be acheived in the afterlife. especially since God's characteristics and everything about Him, exists in the past, present and future, and this life and the next life.

There are no bibical grounds for belief that forgiveness can be acheived in the afterlife, nor have I read any scripture based doctrines that would show otherwise. I see this as a very dangerous doctrine without credit, and believe many do "sin it up" and believe that can pay for it on the other side by yet unknown means. If this doctrine is untrue, and people must repent before judgement, then many, many people could end up where they did not plan to be.

our justice system is not based on some infinite being. i'm not dissing our justice system. but there is no logical comparision to the courts today and the way justice is administered in the afterlife.

Humans are different than all other creatures for this reason. No animals have court systems. We go through great links to bring justice to those who have broken the law, and do so because we are moral beings. If we are made in God's image, then God must also be moral. If we believe the wicked should be brought to justice, so should God. It's the extent of the justice we can't grasp.

Omnipotence, all power, an unlimited amount of power correct? so what is to say that God is limited in power to bring all His creation back to Him? i mean, am i the only one that sees reaching the minority as nothing of being omnipotence?

God can not have a part in sin. Those in sin can not be brought back to God. Only those in Christ who paid for sin will see God. There isn't any grounds to believe all people come to Christ.

Dan~~~>will keep sorting through the response

 

[truegrace]

There isn't any grounds to believe all people come to Christ.

All the ends of the earth will remember and turn to the Lord, and all the families of the nations will bow down before him, for dominion belongs to the Lord and he rules over the nations. All the rich of the earth will feast and worship; all who go down to the dust will kneel before him--those who cannot keep themselves alive. - Psalm 22:27-29

O you who hear prayer, to you all men will come. - Psalm 65:2

Turn to Me and be saved, all you ends of the earth; for I am God, and there is no other. By Myself I have sworn, My mouth has uttered in all integrity a word that will not be revoked: Before Me every knee will bow; by Me every tongue will swear. - Isaiah 45:22,24

But I, when I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all men to myself. - John 12:32

It is written: " `As surely as I live,' says the Lord, `every knee will bow before me; every tongue will confess to God.' " - Romans 14:11

Therefore God exalted him to the highest place and gave him the name that is above every name, that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, in heaven and on earth and under the earth, and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father. - Philippians 2:9-11

Perhaps, Dan, you have been looking at the wrong grounds?

truegrace

 

[Mailman Dan]

The Great Commission is simple, as we all know, go and make disciples of Christ. being a disciple is the here and now correct? thus so much, if not everything would have to entail on the basis of the here and now. and we have every reason, even with universalism in mind to preach the good news. and another thing to add to this is, is evangelizing really about getting someone to some eternal dwelling? i don't believe so.

Scripture states we should "pull them from the fire," which by logic should put fire under our words. Evangelism is a meaningless thing to do if your a universalist, as they belief holds that sooner or later everyone will be saved. Thus making many scriptures meaningless.

[font=&quot]2 Corinthians [/font][font=&quot]5[/font][font=&quot]:11[/font][font=&quot] Knowing therefore the terror of the Lord, we persuade men

[/font]and wouldn't the Great Commission be more fulfilled if the Gospel reaches everyone? and Christ going to hell/sheoul to preach to those in there, shows that there is hope, even in the afterlife.[font=&quot]

There is no bibical grounds for that teaching. The bible states He was not left in Sheoul. (the grave) Many suggest He went to hell to preach to them, yet thats not in the scriptures at all, rather a doctrine of suggestion based on a single verse.

[/font]the fruits of spirit are evident even in the pagans.[font=&quot]

Paul also hit on this issue, and its more proof that works cannot save us.

[/font]. can people live in eternal damnation in the here and now? yes.[font=&quot]

No, scripture states this life is temporary. A very clear seperation of eternity was given by Jesus. Not to mention, but many people can live very "fun" liives in sin. Look at the wealthy among hollywood and the way they live. Judgement is something after death.

[/font] The rich man who found himself in hell (Luke 16:19–31) was conscious. He was able to feel pain, to thirst, and to experience remorse. He wasn’t asleep in the grave; he was in a place of "torment." If hell is a place of knowing nothing or a reference to the grave into which we go at death, Jesus' statements about hell make no sense. He said that if your hand, foot, or eye causes you to sin, it would be better to remove it than to "go into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched: where their worm dies not, and the fire is not quenched" (Mark 9:43–48).
[font=&quot]

[/font]another problem i see is translation. we in the Western world use our language to fit into an eastern religion. that causes a lot of conflict, differences and such[font=&quot]

Yet, you draw universalism from some a few key scriptures, yet the ones I pick *might* be the ones in error? I do beleives this presents a big problem for those that follow only parts of the bible. If they pick verses that they believe, while thinking others are wrong, many could be ending up in a place of weeping and nashing of teeth.

[/font]and thus for me, the resolution will never come, but i will believe as i believe.[font=&quot]

And then....

[/font] i predict you will never change your views. you believe your views are set in scriptures, just as universalists do.[font=&quot]

My views are set in scripture. I just want to understand where the other views are coming from. In the end, I suspect its going to come down to if you believe it's the true word of God, or a book thats been twisted over the years. I *try* to hold to the scriptures alone, and the claims of the lake of fire and judgement come from such. I believe them because its clearly and repeatedly warned. It also serves as fuel to keep me witnessing.

I do hope they are correct views. I hope everyone ends up in heaven. Heck, i'll buy the first round of whatever we have to drink up there....

But its the Scripture paints a different story. Since I believe its the word of God, I won't alter my views against it.

Dan~~~>getting a better understanding of the doctrine though
[/font]

 

[FLANDIDLYANDERS]

Agreed.

I thought the whole point was that only Jesus can decide who knows him, and therefore only he can judge people. So I live under the assumption that Jesus wishes all to learn and live him, and all are in some way; because God wishes all to be saved and that we are commended to look for the good in all things.

Didn't think it was Universalism, just following Jesus is all.

Flan out.

Agreed.

 

[stumpjumper]

Agreed.

Well said. Agreed.

 

[stumpjumper]

Grace is by faith, but works will always follow in the heart of a servant. You can't claim to have faith in Christ, and then not make any effort to follow.

To me grace is common even though some may not open their hearts and eyes to the light. I mentioned the works part though because you quoted me Matthew 25 to show how the righteous will go on to eternal life. You really need to read that whole passage because Jesus is saying that "what you have done to the least of these my children you have done to me." If you feed the poor, you are feeding Jesus. If you tend to the sick, you are healing Jesus' wounds. etc.

God will indeed be all in the hearts of believers, and He is the only way to be saved. I'd also point out the fact that you left off part of "God wants everyone to come to repentance." That part is true, however the first part of that verse wanred He didn't want anyone to perish. It would be a usless warning if that "couldn't happen."

Of course if would be an empty threat if there were no consequences for actions. I have never said that there are no consequences. I don't know how everyone will react to God's presence but I am quite sure that God's love is strong enough to conquer almost all barriers.

Here is a good article about heaven and hell in the Bible= Afterlife

 

[Mailman Dan]

I thought the whole point was that only Jesus can decide who knows him, and therefore only he can judge people.

What kind of judgement will Jesus use? Scripture says there will be judgement, yet the doctrine of universalism says it will be judgement without everlasting punishment, as the bible states. I know only God will judge, but He warned of judgement, and we should trust that warning.

I have never said that there are no consequences. I don't know how everyone will react to God's presence but I am quite sure that God's love is strong enough to conquer almost all barriers.

What type of consequences do you believe in if not the ones in the bible? What's your view on the judgement we "almost all" agree will happen and where do you get that information from?

Dan~~~>trying to post in the middle of a T.S.

 

[Im_A]

Scripture states we should "pull them from the fire," which by logic should put fire under our words. Evangelism is a meaningless thing to do if your a universalist, as they belief holds that sooner or later everyone will be saved. Thus making many scriptures meaningless.

[font=&quot]2 Corinthians [/font][font=&quot]5[/font][font=&quot]:11[/font][font=&quot] Knowing therefore the terror of the Lord, we persuade men



There is no bibical grounds for that teaching. The bible states He was not left in Sheoul. (the grave) Many suggest He went to hell to preach to them, yet thats not in the scriptures at all, rather a doctrine of suggestion based on a single verse.

why do you assume that "fire" is literal? why do you insist that those terms are literal in that sense, and those terms have no play with things today? why does preaching the Gospel have to mean saving some afterlife? what about Jesus saving us in the here and now? why do you assume that metaphors and parables are meant to be taken literal?

i'm not saying Jesus was left in Sheol, you assumed i said that the point i was trying to make is, if Jesus went there to preach the good news, to set the captives free, we have hope in the afterlife.

Paul also hit on this issue, and its more proof that works cannot save us.

without works, faith is dead. look also in the scripture that our deeds will be judged. i do agree that we are not saved by works, but also look more into scripture to see the importance of works, thus these non-believers aren't doing too bad according to scripture with their works.

No, scripture states this life is temporary. A very clear seperation of eternity was given by Jesus. Not to mention, but many people can live very "fun" liives in sin. Look at the wealthy among hollywood and the way they live. Judgement is something after death.

[/font]The rich man who found himself in hell (Luke 16:19–31) was conscious. He was able to feel pain, to thirst, and to experience remorse. He wasn’t asleep in the grave; he was in a place of "torment." If hell is a place of knowing nothing or a reference to the grave into which we go at death, Jesus' statements about hell make no sense. He said that if your hand, foot, or eye causes you to sin, it would be better to remove it than to "go into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched: where their worm dies not, and the fire is not quenched" (Mark 9:43–48).
[font=&quot]


Yet, you draw universalism from some a few key scriptures, yet the ones I pick *might* be the ones in error? I do beleives this presents a big problem for those that follow only parts of the bible. If they pick verses that they believe, while thinking others are wrong, many could be ending up in a place of weeping and nashing of teeth.



And then....



My views are set in scripture. I just want to understand where the other views are coming from. In the end, I suspect its going to come down to if you believe it's the true word of God, or a book thats been twisted over the years. I *try* to hold to the scriptures alone, and the claims of the lake of fire and judgement come from such. I believe them because its clearly and repeatedly warned. It also serves as fuel to keep me witnessing.

I do hope they are correct views. I hope everyone ends up in heaven. Heck, i'll buy the first round of whatever we have to drink up there....

But its the Scripture paints a different story. Since I believe its the word of God, I won't alter my views against it.

Dan~~~>getting a better understanding of the doctrine though
[/font]

that's just it dan, i don't see how scriptures paints a different story anymore. and you haven't covincined me by using parables/metaphors of Christ. you use jewish symbology as factual, literal truths, and i'm sorry i can't do that. i don't see the fruit in that. and we look at the scriptures differently. you go at it in a literal fashion, and i don't.

i believe there are things that the Gospel saves more so than the afterlife. and like i said, i do believe in hell. but i believe that fire and gnashing of the teeth is nothing comparble to be in the agony that one is when their disposition is against God in the afterlife. take the time to scroll through that scripture link i gave to you. it's not about us all being together in heaven, and have drink and life is just great. i'm sure we've saw people living in an unquenchable fires in this life haven't we?

you made a good point with how one might view the scriptures. i believe it's the one true book which has been twisted over the years. no one can convince me it hasn't been twisted, just due to translation factors, and of course the politics that have played in with the scriptures.

this life is of course temporary. but why would it be good to get it right if this life is only temporairy? yea we get our heads on track now, do some good deeds for fire insurance, and that's all this life is about. i think it's only logical to see that eternity starts here. why else is there any importance for such a Gospel to be played into our lives as the scriptures tell us to do with the Gospel? i don't believe that sin is all that powerful to change the way this world works with its relation to God, because there are those who are created who still want Divine Communion, and that's all i see eternity being. nothing of the metaphors, poetic expressions shows any beauty that is more astounding than just being in communion with God.

well dan we both draw conclusions from a few key scriptures. it's fun isn't it? we both try our best to tie Christian doctrine with our views of the afterlife.

 

[Im_A]

and might i add Dan, look at the other site that shows Christians who believe in universalism, and to see where this ancient doctrine in Christianity is coming from. it's for sure nothing new. God Bless you!

 

[God_of_Mercy]

If you are looking for scriptural "explanations" here is a good link:

http://www.tentmaker.org/books/BibleThreateningsExplained.html

Evangelism is a meaningless thing to do if your a universalist, as they belief holds that sooner or later everyone will be saved.

Why? What is so meaningless about spreading the message of God's love to others?

 

[ebia]

If God is good, then by the very nature of good, He must punish evil.

I don't see that that follows at all.

It seems to me that punishment is a extremely imperfect concept, not one worthy of a perfect God.

Evangelism is a meaningless thing to do if your a universalist, as they belief holds that sooner or later everyone will be saved.

That assumes that the purpose of evangelism is to get people into heaven, rather than to help them to know God now, and to get them to help build the Kingdom in the here and now. That's what evangelism is part of - building the Kingdom on earth.

 

[Lilly of the Valley]

I don't see that that follows at all.

It seems to me that punishment is a extremely imperfect concept, not one worthy of a perfect God.


That assumes that the purpose of evangelism is to get people into heaven, rather than to help them to know God now, and to get them to help build the Kingdom in the here and now. That's what evangelism is part of - building the Kingdom on earth.

How is punishment imperfect? If God is truly righteous and holy and perfect, He must judge sin. If He didn't, he wouldn't be those things. Punishment involves us not doing what we should have done (disobedience). And God's punishment/judgements are always perfect. Also, punishment and correction are different, but God does both and He does both in righteousness.

 

[truegrace]

If God is truly righteous and holy and perfect, He must judge sin.

I believe that if God is truly righteous and holy and perfect, He must be merciful. The overwhelming theme of the Bible is not that God must judge sin, it is that He is merciful.

This is, to me, the major difference between the Father of Christ and the god of other religions -- the Father of Christ is merciful. To find a god that must judge sin, you can look into almost any religion that believes in a higher power. But to find a God whose love endures forever and who is rich in mercy, the Father of Jesus fills the bill perfectly!

(Side note: This is one aspect of atonement theology that I never understood as a fundie. Supposedly, Jesus paid for all sin on the cross. He was the propitiation for all sins. And He said, "It is finished." Yet, fundies insists that God only accepts Jesus' sacrifice if we first accept it. "Jesus paid it all," they sing. The next line of the song should say, "But only if you believe He did." )

truegrace

 

[Im_A]

How is punishment imperfect? If God is truly righteous and holy and perfect, He must judge sin. If He didn't, he wouldn't be those things. Punishment involves us not doing what we should have done (disobedience). And God's punishment/judgements are always perfect. Also, punishment and correction are different, but God does both and He does both in righteousness.

how can it be perfect if it's only coming from imperfection? it's called cause and effect to me, nothing to do with perfection or imperfection. kind of like the idea, if one does evil against God, then the punishment has always seemed to be based with evil actions. but this is getting into another topic.

i've started to wonder, this was talked about in another thread. can God step lower than the laws He created?

for example, can the punishment that God gives be just as evil as the act that was done beforehand to deserve that punishment? if the punishment of God can be just as evil, then ebia is right, there is no perfection in the punishment given by God. but if the punishment cannot be evil, then i agree with you lily that God's punishment is perfect and just. it's kind of like eye for an eye, and Jesus did away with that, ie God did away with that.

 

[Lilly of the Valley]

I believe that if God is truly righteous and holy and perfect, He must be merciful. The overwhelming theme of the Bible is not that God must judge sin, it is that He is merciful.

This is, to me, the major difference between the Father of Christ and the god of other religions -- the Father of Christ is merciful. To find a god that must judge sin, you can look into almost any religion that believes in a higher power. But to find a God whose love endures forever and who is rich in mercy, the Father of Jesus fills the bill perfectly!

(Side note: This is one aspect of atonement theology that I never understood as a fundie. Supposedly, Jesus paid for all sin on the cross. He was the propitiation for all sins. And He said, "It is finished." Yet, fundies insists that God only accepts Jesus' sacrifice if we first accept it. "Jesus paid it all," they sing. The next line of the song should say, "But only if you believe He did." )

truegrace

He is merciful, but at some point, judgement must and will come. Why do you think God warns us numerous times and is patient with us? To help us get right so we avoid judgement.

 

[Lilly of the Valley]

how can it be perfect if it's only coming from imperfection? it's called cause and effect to me, nothing to do with perfection or imperfection. kind of like the idea, if one does evil against God, then the punishment has always seemed to be based with evil actions. but this is getting into another topic.

i've started to wonder, this was talked about in another thread. can God step lower than the laws He created?

for example, can the punishment that God gives be just as evil as the act that was done beforehand to deserve that punishment? if the punishment of God can be just as evil, then ebia is right, there is no perfection in the punishment given by God. but if the punishment cannot be evil, then i agree with you lily that God's punishment is perfect and just. it's kind of like eye for an eye, and Jesus did away with that, ie God did away with that.

Nothing the Lord does is evil, so it is indeed perfect.

 

[Im_A]

Nothing the Lord does is evil, so it is indeed perfect.

hmm, in isaiah it say that God created evil, hmm.

 

[Lilly of the Valley]

hmm, in isaiah it say that God created evil, hmm.

Not sin, wickedness evil. And the Lord doesn't DO evil.

 

[Im_A]

Not sin, wickedness evil. And the Lord doesn't DO evil.

"I am Jehovah, and there is none else; besides me there is no God. I will gird you, though you have not known me; that they may know from the rising of the sun, and from the west, that there is none besides me: I am Jehovah, and there is none else. I form the light, and create darkness; I make peace, and create evil. I am Jehovah, who does all these things." (Isa. 45:5-7)

i guess one's theological views depend on what translation you use eh?