Universalism VS. Scripture

[Im_A]

the Aposles taught that there was eternal punishment and God Himself even said it. YOu either believe God or not.

do you just post without actually looking at the side that believes as they do, and the scriptures they use to support their belief that you do not agree with? if you can't actually take the time to click on the links we have used to defend ourselves with, don't even bother posting here, because your posts does no good.

(don't mean to be so mean, but i get utterly sick and disgusted with Christians on here who are so deadset against a belief, and so convinced because of THEIR OWN PERSONAL belief with God that they don't take the time to check out the links that actually defends others' beliefs, and just goes on posting, like they know the truth to the most broken down form. lily, if you can't take the time, to sit on your chair, move the mouse over and click and read, please do not waste our time.)

 

[guitarprophet]

Lily's faith cannot make room for a God who is big enough to handle sin. First of all, sin handled by an omniscient God who cannot be tempted is different than sin handled by corrupted humanity. Second, If God made all things and controls all things, then that means ALL THINGS, and not what our theology is comfortable with. Third, it is God who sends the test. He is not to be blamed for the consequence because His ways are fair and right, but He is ultimately in charge. The true Holy See.

J

do you just post without actually looking at the side that believes as they do, and the scriptures they use to support their belief that you do not agree with? if you can't actually take the time to click on the links we have used to defend ourselves with, don't even bother posting here, because your posts does no good.

(don't mean to be so mean, but i get utterly sick and disgusted with Christians on here who are so deadset against a belief, and so convinced because of THEIR OWN PERSONAL belief with God that they don't take the time to check out the links that actually defends others' beliefs, and just goes on posting, like they know the truth to the most broken down form. lily, if you can't take the time, to sit on your chair, move the mouse over and click and read, please do not waste our time.)

 

[Lilly of the Valley]

Lily's faith cannot make room for a God who is big enough to handle sin. First of all, sin handled by an omniscient God who cannot be tempted is different than sin handled by corrupted humanity. Second, If God made all things and controls all things, then that means ALL THINGS, and not what our theology is comfortable with. Third, it is God who sends the test. He is not to be blamed for the consequence because His ways are fair and right, but He is ultimately in charge. The true Holy See.

J

What? God handles sin all the time by judging it. Yes, God sends tests, but not temptations or lies or sin itself.

 

[Mailman Dan]

well i think i'm done here posting in this dan. you have failed to give us one reason to believe that Jesus's parables/metaphors were meant to be taken literal, so i shake the dust off my feet and walk away cause any discussion in this is pointless. all you do is quote and quote, not giving one iota of proof that every parable/metaphor is meant to be taken literally.

Bless you too man... I do enjoy trying to understand the doctrine though. You can be sure that I will keep using quotes from the bible, as it is a foundation for the Christian faith. (so I thought anyway)

truegrace~~~>has no more fear of hell-based religion or of those who hawk it as being "the love of God."

You have arrow envy...

A hell based religion is not what Christianity is, it's A Christ based religion. The doctrines of judgement and punishment come from the bible, which is the source of almost all of the Christian religion. I don't remove the parts I don't agree with, as that would fall under Idolatry. (making a god in the image you want) I try to follow scripture to see what God is like, rather than make one up in my mind.

but i get utterly sick and disgusted with Christians on here who are so deadset against a belief, and so convinced because of THEIR OWN PERSONAL belief with God that they don't take the time to check out the links that actually defends others' beliefs, and just goes on posting, like they know the truth to the most broken down form. lily, if you can't take the time, to sit on your chair, move the mouse over and click and read, please do not waste our time.)

I haven't used any agruements outside of scripture, because that is the gounds of the Christian faith. (see the thread title) Your saying someone is wasting your time because they won't check out one of hundreds of thousands of web sites that take either view on hell, and write articles to suit. I have asked for bibical grounds for Universalism, and bibical grounds why the numerous scriptures I posted are wrong.

If it's possibile, use the bible alone for your views. It's not wise to believe the words of men... (including mine)...without some source of truth to back it up. I suspect thats the reason that many will end up weeping and nashing their teeth...


Matthew 8:12
But the subjects of the kingdom will be thrown outside, into the darkness, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth."

Matthew 13:42
They will throw them into the fiery furnace, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

Matthew 24:51
He will cut him to pieces and assign him a place with the hypocrites, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

Luke 13:28
"There will be weeping there, and gnashing of teeth, when you see Abraham, Isaac and Jacob and all the prophets in the kingdom of God, but you yourselves thrown out.


Dan~~~>doesn't think there would be weeping if everyone was in heaven

 

[Lilly of the Valley]

Also, as an addition...how is the devil, stealing, killing and destroying working for God? The devil is here to do that awfulness. God is righteous and holy and can't be working with pure evil. They are enemies, not partners. The devil tries messing up God's plans, not helping them.

 

[stumpjumper]

Also, as an addition...how is the devil, stealing, killing and destroying working for God? The devil is here to do that awfulness. God is righteous and holy and can't be working with pure evil. They are enemies, not partners. The devil tries messing up God's plans, not helping them.

Lily

Have you ever considered that perhaps the devil is an allegorical representation of evil.

 

[Lilly of the Valley]

Lily

Have you ever considered that perhaps the devil is an allegorical representation of evil.

No, he IS evil, just look at his evil ways and such. The Bible even says it.

 

[Im_A]

Bless you too man... I do enjoy trying to understand the doctrine though. You can be sure that I will keep using quotes from the bible, as it is a foundation for the Christian faith. (so I thought anyway)



You have arrow envy...

A hell based religion is not what Christianity is, it's A Christ based religion. The doctrines of judgement and punishment come from the bible, which is the source of almost all of the Christian religion. I don't remove the parts I don't agree with, as that would fall under Idolatry. (making a god in the image you want) I try to follow scripture to see what God is like, rather than make one up in my mind.




I haven't used any agruements outside of scripture, because that is the gounds of the Christian faith. (see the thread title) Your saying someone is wasting your time because they won't check out one of hundreds of thousands of web sites that take either view on hell, and write articles to suit. I have asked for bibical grounds for Universalism, and bibical grounds why the numerous scriptures I posted are wrong.

If it's possibile, use the bible alone for your views. It's not wise to believe the words of men... (including mine)...without some source of truth to back it up. I suspect thats the reason that many will end up weeping and nashing their teeth...


Matthew 8:12
But the subjects of the kingdom will be thrown outside, into the darkness, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth."

Matthew 13:42
They will throw them into the fiery furnace, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

Matthew 24:51
He will cut him to pieces and assign him a place with the hypocrites, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

Luke 13:28
"There will be weeping there, and gnashing of teeth, when you see Abraham, Isaac and Jacob and all the prophets in the kingdom of God, but you yourselves thrown out.


Dan~~~>doesn't think there would be weeping if everyone was in heaven

dan i wasn't meaning you by any means. i hope you believe me. i agree with you tho. the Bible is the foundation of my views. why do you think i've changed? trust me, i'm not some left winged hippied here, trying to be politically correct. i'm not old enough anyways to be a hippie, and i'm not the hugest fan of the hippie movement to begin with and i'm not a politically correct person to begin with

the main reason why i have changed my views is like i said, during a bible study. trust me, it was more than one verse. i know i gave some of the verses, and me and others have posted links to defend our views, which those links includes many verses.

i believe the issue isn't scripture quo say, it's translating scripture, and us western believers interpretating a book that came from the East, a totally different world. and then the next issue to me is the cannonization process.

so i say thank you for starting this thread up too. it was nice in this discussion to see you a person who is really against an idea, having the audacity(good audacity btw ) to want to know why we believe as we do. just i can't explain it probably as good as others here can. that's another reason i posted the links, and was glad that another believer who believes in universalism posted links. people that have had more time studying the scriptures and all that in this area and that believes in it still, can explain it a lot better than i can. so thanx for the time of discussion, and may God Bless you! <><

 

[Im_A]

Lily's faith cannot make room for a God who is big enough to handle sin. First of all, sin handled by an omniscient God who cannot be tempted is different than sin handled by corrupted humanity. Second, If God made all things and controls all things, then that means ALL THINGS, and not what our theology is comfortable with. Third, it is God who sends the test. He is not to be blamed for the consequence because His ways are fair and right, but He is ultimately in charge. The true Holy See.

J

guitarprophet, thanx for the clarrification, but i'm not attacking lily's faith. i'm not going to do that. i'm not going to do that to anyone period, just because they believe differently than me. but, it's a matter of respect to look at the defense of a side that you don't agree with, that your throwing yourself into discussion with. that's all i was going at

 

[stumpjumper]

No, he IS evil, just look at his evil ways and such. The Bible even says it.

Lily

I don't want to argue with you but there are many Christian's including myself who believe that the Devil is an allegory for (d)evil. Yes, evil is still in our midst but only because of our choosing.

 

[Lilly of the Valley]

Lily

I don't want to argue with you but there are many Christian's including myself who believe that the Devil is an allegory for (d)evil. Yes, evil is still in our midst but only because of our choosing.

Well, the word of God speaks differently.

 

[ebia]

Well, the word of God speaks differently.

He told you personally that references to the devil are not metaphors?

 

[stumpjumper]

Well, the word of God speaks differently.

Lilly

Have you looked at the Bible from a critical perspective in which certain things like angels are considered manifestations of God? In this context, angels are real because it is a way to view God. Kind of like how I view the Holy Spirit. The HS is a manifestation of God; so are angels. The Devil is an allegory of the absence of God.

 

[Lilly of the Valley]

Lilly

Have you looked at the Bible from a critical perspective in which certain things like angels are considered manifestations of God? In this context, angels are real because it is a way to view God. Kind of like how I view the Holy Spirit. The HS is a manifestation of God; so are angels. The Devil is an allegory of the absence of God.

No, angels are His servants, they aren't God, they work for God. No, the devil is a real being that roams the earth looking to steal, kill, and destroy and is evil.

 

[Mailman Dan]

He told you personally that references to the devil are not metaphors?

Did He tell you all references in scripture to the devil/Satan were metaphors? If not, who did? Is it another human that tell you that the bible isn't really the correct word of God?

Scripture warns to be on guard against the wilds of the devil. Thats hard to do if you don't believe he exist. (50% of those who call themselves christians don't believe the bible on that subject..according to Barna)

Thats like saying terrorist don't exist. You might not know one, but the damage they create is evident. (Who do you think came up with universalism, which removes the very reason God gave men to repent?)


Dan~~~>just tossing out a thought

 

[Scholar in training]

Shouldn't we also look at translations and the original languages when it comes to universalism, too, and how there was no place of eternal punishment in the doctrines of the early churches? Why should we look at the original languages and take translations into consideration for this but not for the doctrine of hell?

While some of the early church fathers argued for universalism, that's a far cry from saying it was the early church's official position.

 

[stumpjumper]

No, angels are His servants, they aren't God, they work for God. No, the devil is a real being that roams the earth looking to steal, kill, and destroy and is evil.

OK. I think we have two different religions.

 

[Scholar in training]

Lilly

Have you looked at the Bible from a critical perspective in which certain things like angels are considered manifestations of God? In this context, angels are real because it is a way to view God. Kind of like how I view the Holy Spirit. The HS is a manifestation of God; so are angels. The Devil is an allegory of the absence of God.

The Holy Spirit is worthy of worship, however, while angels are not. Angels may be representative of God, but they are not persons of God's nature.

 

[Lilly of the Valley]

OK. I think we have two different religions.

I serve God and believe the Bible.......what about you?

 

[Robby]

If god is love, and the devil is so bad, then why does god allow him to be unleashed upon us?


Robby~~~> thinking that it just don't add up!