Universalism: pros and cons

[Zaac]

Apparently they do. According to the "Authorized Version", the King James Bible, Jonah himself escaped a place from which modern theologians insist there is no escape. (See Jonah 2:2). If "hell" is the proper word to use in that sentence, and Gehenna is the same thing as hell, and hell is a place of endless torment, then, as we can see with Jonah, God does deliver from there too.


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I continue to say that this is a shame. It is a shame that some continue to look for ANY little opening that gives credence to these false doctrines while completely ignoring the overwhelming Biblical WHOLE evidence against said false doctrine.

 

[Rajni]

From Post#222

Which is it that the partialists believe one is tormented in forever -- "Hell" or the Lake of Fire? There seems to be some fluctuating between the two, and they are two completely different things.

Then lets get technical. Technically they are taken out of Gehenna and stand before the Great White Throne of Judgment. They are then righteously judged and thrown into the lake of fire.

Revelation 20:11-15:

11 Then I saw a great white throne and him who was seated on it. From his presence earth and sky fled away, and no place was found for them. 12 And I saw the dead, great and small, standing before the throne, and books were opened. Then another book was opened, which is the book of life. And the dead were judged by what was written in the books, according to what they had done. 13 And the sea gave up the dead who were in it, Death and Hades gave up the dead who were in them, and they were judged, each one of them, according to what they had done. 14 Then Death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death, the lake of fire. 15 And if anyone's name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire

 

[Rajni]

From Post#221

We aren't discussing Calvinism (whatever that is!)!

Apparently we were -- see Zaac's statement to which I was responding, where he stated the distinctively Calvinistic belief there are those who will not be saved period because God says so. This suggests the Calvinistic belief that God pre-elects who will be saved, meaning He is also pre-electing who will be cast into hell forever.

 

[Rajni]

From Post#221

I continue to say that this is a shame. It is a shame that some continue to look for ANY little opening that gives credence to these false doctrines while completely ignoring the overwhelming Biblical WHOLE evidence against said false doctrine.

I could easily say the same thing about those who disagree with me on these things, but prefer not to waste time (and increase my risks of carpal tunnel syndrome, lol!) bewailing a sense of dismay that's really quite mutual.

I trust we are safely in your prayers, Zaac, considering how lamentable is our shameful condition.

 

[Floatingaxe]

I trust we are safely in your prayers, Zaac, considering how lamentable is our shameful condition.

Well, it really is kind of "out there".

 

[Zaac]

From Post#221



Apparently we were -- see Zaac's statement to which I was responding, where he stated the distinctively Calvinistic belief there are those who will not be saved period because God says so. This suggests the Calvinistic belief that God pre-elects who will be saved, meaning He is also pre-electing who will be cast into hell forever.

Ungh ungh .

Don't be trying to put that foolishness on me. If I had intended to talk about what I did inthe framework of Calvinism, that's what I would have said. The statement I made didn't have anything to do with God pre-selecting anyone, but everything to do with Him having ALREADY DECIDED where those who do not choose Him will spend eternity.

 

[CaDan]

Did I just see a Baptist advocate for Tradition a few posts back?

 

[Zaac]

From Post#221



I could easily say the same thing about those who disagree with me on these things, but prefer not to waste time (and increase my risks of carpal tunnel syndrome, lol!) bewailing a sense of dismay that's really quite mutual.

I trust we are safely in your prayers, Zaac, considering how lamentable is our shameful condition.

As a Christian, I'm not called to be in agreement with YOU. I'm called to be in agreement with CHRIST. And if anti-Christ doctrine is espoused, I am to STILL align myself with Christ.

There is an unforgivebale sin. Are yall now gonna chnage the meaning of unforgiveable so that these folks can too be gotten out of hell?

And yes, anyone who teaches false doctrine is definitely in my prayers.

How is it possible that I or any Christian can read what God says about false teachers and not have them in our prayers?

The Word of God says 13They will be paid back with harm for the harm they have done. Their idea of pleasure is to carouse in broad daylight. They are blots and blemishes, reveling in their pleasures while they feast with you. 14With eyes full of adultery, they never stop sinning; they seduce the unstable; they are experts in greed—an accursed brood! 15They have left the straight way and wandered off to follow the way of Balaam son of Beor, who loved the wages of wickedness. 16But he was rebuked for his wrongdoing by a donkey—a beast without speech—who spoke with a man's voice and restrained the prophet's madness.

17These men are springs without water and mists driven by a storm. Blackest darkness is reserved for them. 18For they mouth empty, boastful words and, by appealing to the lustful desires of sinful human nature, they entice people who are just escaping from those who live in error. 19They promise them freedom, while they themselves are slaves of depravity—for a man is a slave to whatever has mastered him. 20If they have escaped the corruption of the world by knowing our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ and are again entangled in it and overcome, they are worse off at the end than they were at the beginning. 21It would have been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than to have known it and then to turn their backs on the sacred command that was passed on to them. 22Of them the proverbs are true: "A dog returns to its vomit,"[f]and, "A sow that is washed goes back to her wallowing in the mud." 2 Peter 2:13-22

 

[Zaac]

From Post#222

Which is it that the partialists believe one is tormented in forever -- "Hell" or the Lake of Fire? There seems to be some fluctuating between the two, and they are two completely different things.

Nothing partial about it. The two are different places. w have just come to use them interchangeably because they are both places of separation from God.

Either way the torment of hell will continue in the lake of fire for all eternity.

There won't be anyone being taken out of hell and shuffled on to heaven.

 

[Ave Maria]

Universalism is a heresy, plain and simple. And that, my friends, is one major con!

 

[Zaac]

Universalism is a heresy, plain and simple. And that, my friends, is one major con!

And all God's people said

One for the Father
One for the Son
and One for the Holy Spirit!

 

[Rajni]

Well, it really is kind of "out there".

I can see how it would seem that way, yes. I only wish I had encountered Christian Universalists before I myself became convinced of universal reconciliation so that I could have a better understanding of just how out in left field it sounds to one who doesn't yet believe it. I sort of backed into it -- I became convinced of it before knowing there was even a name for it, lol!

 

[Rajni]

The statement I made didn't have anything to do with God pre-selecting anyone, but everything to do with Him having ALREADY DECIDED where those who do not choose Him will spend eternity.

I'm not seeing the difference between pre-selecting and already deciding something.

 

[Floatingaxe]

I can see how it would seem that way, yes. I only wish I had encountered Christian Universalists before I myself became convinced of universal reconciliation so that I could have a better understanding of just how out in left field it sounds to one who doesn't yet believe it. I sort of backed into it -- I became convinced of it before knowing there was even a name for it, lol!

So, you slowly fell into error? You must not have been a part of a good church that would come alongside you and show you the truth and catch you before you fall.

My sympathies.

 

[Ave Maria]

So, you slowly fell into error? You must not have been a part of a good church that would come alongside you and show you the truth and catch you before you fall.

My sympathies.

Yep. You (Chaela) have my sympathies as well. I am so sorry that you fell into the error of universalism. Please escape this heresy as soon as possible!

 

[Zaac]

I'm not seeing the difference between pre-selecting and already deciding something.

Chaela( I do so like your name ), I'm referring to God having already pre-selected WHERE they will spend eternity not WHO will spend eternity where.

 

[Rajni]

Universalism is a heresy, plain and simple. And that, my friends, is one major con!

The claim that the sun is stationary was considered a heresy too, once upon a time.

(This 2nd point is off-topic, but I noticed your green "sick" icon and wanted you to know that I hope you are feeling better soon!)

 

[Rajni]

Chaela( I do so like your name ), I'm referring to God having already pre-selected WHERE they will spend eternity not WHO will spend eternity where.

Oh, okay, I got it. I see where you are coming from on that.

(On the name -- (thanks!) -- It means, "Who is like God?")

 

[Rajni]

So, you slowly fell into error? You must not have been a part of a good church that would come alongside you and show you the truth and catch you before you fall.

My sympathies.

On debate boards, "falling into error" is another way of saying "not in agreement with another's chosen doctrine".

My mom would agree with you about not having been part of a "good church" that would have prevented my "fall". However, her idea of a "good church" would be the Roman Catholic one, and the "fall" would have been my having left it upon trusting Christ alone for my salvation.

Once Collective Churchdom can solidify just what they mean by "error" and "good churches", then such observations will have far more credibility.

 

[Floatingaxe]

No. Universalism is a grave error in understanding God. It harms the Church, the body of Christ.