Universalism: pros and cons

[Rajni]

[FONT=&quot]No. Universalism is a grave error in understanding God. It harms the Church, the body of Christ.[/FONT]

In the estimation of some, that would seem to be the case. But this is not necessarily the reality.

There are also those who see my belief in salvation as being by faith and not works as a grave and harmful error. Shall I stop believing that too, to make them happy?

 

[Floatingaxe]

In the estimation of some, that would seem to be the case. But this is not necessarily the reality.

I can assure you that in the light of the entire word of God, the error of your doctrine is a bona fide reality.

There are also those who see my belief in salvation as being by faith and not works as a grave and harmful error. Shall I stop believing that too, to make them happy?

Is that the reason you stopped believing that God's plan is to have only those who are willing to receive Jesus as recipients of His heavenly home? Because you wanted to make some people happy? Because someone taught you this or you have abandoned sound teaching and correcting that God provides all of us and begun to self-teach. Not a good thing.

 

[Rajni]

From Post #244

Is that the reason you stopped believing that God's plan is to have only those who are willing to receive Jesus as recipients of His heavenly home? Because you wanted to make some people happy?

No, I just didn't word it very well. I was simply pointing out that what constitutes a grave and harmful error changes depending on who one talks to.

And, just as I'm not going to change my belief that it is Christ alone and not our works that saves us, simply because someone labels it a grave error, I'm also not going to abandon my belief in universal reconciliation simply because it's labeled as such.

Just by way of reminder, I believe that everyone will eventually be made alive in Christ, not independent of Him.

Because someone taught you this or you have abandoned sound teaching and correcting that God provides all of us and begun to self-teach. Not a good thing.

As far as having someone to teach us, we have the Holy Spirit. As Christians we are just as plugged-in to the Spirit as any other Christian. The belief that one must put themselves under the authority of church leaders is a pre-Reformation influence that Protestantism never quite got over.

The million dollar question then becomes, Whose leader should I be submitting to? Martin Luther? Kenneth Copeland? Rick Warren? Pope Benedict XVI? John Arnott? E. W. Kenyon? John Calvin? Jacobus Arminius? The Trinity Broadcasting Network?

On a positive note, I can never say that my choices of authority are limited, lol!

 

[Floatingaxe]

Just by way of reminder, I believe that everyone will eventually be made alive in Christ, not independent of Him.



As far as having someone to teach us, we have the Holy Spirit. As Christians we are just as plugged-in to the Spirit as any other Christian. The belief that one must put themselves under the authority of church leaders is a pre-Reformation influence that Protestantism never quite got over.

Well, that is not a scriptural belief. You have already embraced error there for starters.

God wants us planted in churches for growth.

 

[SpiritDriven]

Actualy people are being called out of the Churches at the moment, to worship in Spirit and truth...by God.
Both the Roman Catholic Church and protestant Churches are blinded by tradition.... the watchman Satan that roams the line between them has fallen asleep just at the moment...at the moment, that is.

 

[Zaac]

Actualy people are being called out of the Churches at the moment, to worship in Spirit and truth...by God.
Both the Roman Catholic Church and protestant Churches are blinded by tradition.... the watchman Satan that roams the line between them has fallen asleep just at the moment...at the moment, that is.

God ain't told us not to forsake the fellowship and then changed His mind and called folks out of the Church.

You are called to go as all Christians are. But that in no way means you're called out of the Church or the fellowship of the saints.

It is crucial to our spiritual growth that we be in fellowship with other saints who can hold us accountable and help us to spiritually grow and avoid doctrinal errors such as universalism.

 

[Floatingaxe]

Actualy people are being called out of the Churches at the moment, to worship in Spirit and truth...by God.
Both the Roman Catholic Church and protestant Churches are blinded by tradition.... the watchman Satan that roams the line between them has fallen asleep just at the moment...at the moment, that is.

Not one Spirit-filled believer is being called out of his or her church.

Satan has never fallen asleep yet!

 

[Zaac]

Not one Spirit-filled believer is being called out of his or her church.

Satan has never fallen asleep yet!

What is this mess about folks being called out of the fellowship of the Saints?

This is why some folks get so confused. Rather than surround themselves with the ones who are foundationally mature in Christ, they embark on these solo endeavors in which all sorts of untruth are thrown at them until something sticks.

And the enemy is parading around just looking for those folks to devour.

 

[Tavita]

God ain't told us not to forsake the fellowship and then changed His mind and called folks out of the Church.

You are called to go as all Christians are. But that in no way means you're called out of the Church or the fellowship of the saints.

It is crucial to our spiritual growth that we be in fellowship with other saints who can hold us accountable and help us to spiritually grow and avoid doctrinal errors such as universalism.

Hi Zaac,

Actually there are thousands upon thousands just in the Asia Pacific Region alone who are leaving the organised Church. It doesn't mean they are without fellowship or that they don't gather together and study the scriptures, it just means they've been called out of the organisation called Church. In fact, most of them find it easier and more profitable to hold each other accountable in these 'out of organized church' settings. It's the people who are the church, not the organisation. Many of these believers gather in home churches, or just fellowship with others from time to time, when they're able.

How do you account for the fact that many universalists are already in the mainline organisations called churches, and are not leaving?

 

[Tavita]

Not one Spirit-filled believer is being called out of his or her church.

Satan has never fallen asleep yet!

As I told Zaac, there are probably in the hundreds of thousands leaving the organized churches in the Asia Pacific Region alone. They are the ones who are more likely to be Spirit filled and open to hearing from God than those who sit in traditional settings just listening to the preacher instead of God.

 

[Zaac]

Hi Zaac,

Actually there are thousands upon thousands just in the Asia Pacific Region alone who are leaving the organised Church. It doesn't mean they are without fellowship or that they don't gather together and study the scriptures, it just means they've been called out of the organisation called Church. In fact, most of them find it easier and more profitable to hold each other accountable in these 'out of organized church' settings. It's the people who are the church, not the organisation. Many of these believers gather in home churches, or just fellowship with others from time to time, when they're able.

That I understand Tavita. I just think folks need to be very careful when they say that people are called out of the church.

If we are referring to organized, four-walled, meets every Wednesday, Sunday morning and Sunday evening Churches, that's what needs to be said.

It is important that we communicate to all that we are not talking about Christians forsaking the fellowship of the Saints.

How do you account for the fact that many universalists are already in the mainline organisations called churches, and are not leaving?

What purpose do they serve in these churches?

 

[Zaac]

As I told Zaac, there are probably in the hundreds of thousands leaving the organized churches in the Asia Pacific Region alone. They are the ones who are more likely to be Spirit filled and open to hearing from God than those who sit in traditional settings just listening to the preacher instead of God.

This is something that people need to be very careful with. I've seen it from missionaries all around the world that when they don't have any "covering" they tend to start creating their own doctrine. This happens a lot in these little house churches in which they are the authority.

But let me ask, the folks who are leaving the organized churches, at what point do they become an organized church?

Like children, the Body of Christ needs to be fed regularly and not just when someone feels its convenient to come together.

I get the impression that a lot of this leaving the organized church stuff is somewhat faddish in some areas. Not to mention that it gives some the excuse to not have checks and balances.

 

[Floatingaxe]

What is this mess about folks being called out of the fellowship of the Saints?

This is why some folks get so confused. Rather than surround themselves with the ones who are foundationally mature in Christ, they embark on these solo endeavors in which all sorts of untruth are thrown at them until something sticks.

And the enemy is parading around just looking for those folks to devour.

Amen, brother!

 

[Tavita]

That I understand Tavita. I just think folks need to be very careful when they say that people are called out of the church.

If we are referring to organized, four-walled, meets every Wednesday, Sunday morning and Sunday evening Churches, that's what needs to be said.

It is important that we communicate to all that we are not talking about Christians forsaking the fellowship of the Saints.

Yes, I agree. We ought to communicate what we mean better.

What purpose do they serve in these churches?

Are you talking of universalists? If so, why would you ask a question like that? I wouldn't ask you what purpose you serve in the church, or maybe I'm not understanding your question.

 

[Tavita]

This is something that people need to be very careful with. I've seen it from missionaries all around the world that when they don't have any "covering" they tend to start creating their own doctrine. This happens a lot in these little house churches in which they are the authority.

But let me ask, the folks who are leaving the organized churches, at what point do they become an organized church?

Like children, the Body of Christ needs to be fed regularly and not just when someone feels its convenient to come together.

I get the impression that a lot of this leaving the organized church stuff is somewhat faddish in some areas. Not to mention that it gives some the excuse to not have checks and balances.

I can't judge why they leave, it's between them and God. If they say God has called them out, who am I to challenge that? I could be challenging God Himself and getting in the way. I think this verse here has a lot to do with it, along with the fact that the early church were not organized into an institution, or business, which a lot are these days, and accountable to the Roman authorities like churches are today.

Rev 18:4 Then I heard another voice from heaven saying, "Come out of her, my people, lest you take part in her sins, lest you share in her plagues;

I've done a bit of reading about this phenomena over the last few years. Most church organizations are held accountable to the system, and I think this is one of the reasons most of these who leave, do leave, because they feel that, as in Revelation, the organized church has become a part of the Babylonian world system.

 

[Rajni]

From Post #253

If we are referring to organized, four-walled, meets every Wednesday, Sunday morning and Sunday evening Churches, that's what needs to be said. It is important that we communicate to all that we are not talking about Christians forsaking the fellowship of the Saints.

I think that's a good distinction to make.

The phenomenon has been referred to as "Out of Church Christians" (an article with this title can be found here addressing this movement). All it means is that an increasing number of Christians are finding their walk with the Lord enhanced by not confining it to a church pew. They are not forsaking assembling with other believers, which is something else entirely. They're simply using a different approach.

Reminds me of a saying: "Every day people are straying away from the church and going back to God. Really." (Lenny Bruce)

 

[Zecryphon]

As I told Zaac, there are probably in the hundreds of thousands leaving the organized churches in the Asia Pacific Region alone. They are the ones who are more likely to be Spirit filled and open to hearing from God than those who sit in traditional settings just listening to the preacher instead of God.

Tavita,

are not ALL Christians filled with the Holy Spirit and therefore, spiritfilled? You're not more spiritfilled because you've stopped going to church. We're not filled with the Holy Spirt because of something WE do, but because of something God does. This whole "spiritfilled" Christian thing is leading to an issue of pride in the body of Christ and that is not good.

 

[Tavita]

Tavita,

are not ALL Christians filled with the Holy Spirit and therefore, spiritfilled? You're not more spiritfilled because you've stopped going to church. We're not filled with the Holy Spirt because of something WE do, but because of something God does. This whole "spiritfilled" Christian thing is leading to an issue of pride in the body of Christ and that is not good.

Yes, I totally agree. I don't know if you knew that I was sorta responding (not directly) to someone who said that those who leave the Church are not Spirit filled. Maybe it's that pride that drives people out too, maybe it's a combination of many things. I left the Pentecostal organization for quite a few reasons that I could not live with anymore.

 

[Zaac]

Are you talking of universalists? If so, why would you ask a question like that? I wouldn't ask you what purpose you serve in the church, or maybe I'm not understanding your question.

Yes. Because I would honestly like to know. What purpose does attending the fellowship of the Saints hold for a universalist?

I ask this because I'm trying to get my hands around the fellowship of universalist in comparison to non-universalist.

As a Great Commission Christian, I do not forsake the assemblying of the Saints because God commands to assemble with them. And part of that fellowship is being equipped and encouraged to GO! and spread the Good News.

I keep coming right back to the laboring in vain that results from GOING as God commands if everyone is already saved.

What is the incentive for a universalist to fellowship with the saints?

What's the purpose in growing in your relationship with Christ if it does not move you to want to share the Good News of why ALL should desire the same type relationship? And why should they, if they are all saved or eventually will be?

 

[Zecryphon]

Yes, I totally agree. I don't know if you knew that I was sorta responding (not directly) to someone who said that those who leave the Church are not Spirit filled. Maybe it's that pride that drives people out too, maybe it's a combination of many things. I left the Pentecostal organization for quite a few reasons that I could not live with anymore.

I think one thing that could be driving people away from church in the region you specified is safety. We take it for granted in this country that we can meet with fellow believers in safety. That's not true in countries like China, N. Korea and other places. Safety, I think, does factor into a person's decision to attend church. If it isn't safe, why risk imprisonment or death unneccessarily?