Universalism: pros and cons

[Rajni]

From Post #257

I can't judge why they leave, it's between them and God. If they say God has called them out, who am I to challenge that? I could be challenging God Himself and getting in the way. I think this verse here has a lot to do with it, along with the fact that the early church were not organized into an institution, or business, which a lot are these days, and accountable to the Roman authorities like churches are today.

Having been involved in what's called "Cell Group" churches in the past, another thing that many institutional churches are doing to achieve growth is to turn to business-growth experts to learn how to bring in more people. Some mega-churches feel more like social clubs now than anything else.

I often also wonder just what's going on in some of the retreats they have. One year, I was helping to format the women's newsletter in a Baptist church I had attended. A prayer for the new pastor was to be included in the newsletter. One of the requests within the prayer was that the pastor would have the Holy Spirit to guide him. I suggested to the prayer's author that she re-word this particular point because, if he's a Christian, he automatically has the Holy Spirit. This touches on Christianity 101 -- Christians, as such, have the Holy Spirit indwelling them already. The irony was, the author to whom I pointed this out had just gotten back from a ladies' retreat that was centered on learning about the Holy Spirit. I sometimes wonder if the retreat centered more on subjective experiences of the Spirit ("holy laughter" and the like) as opposed to learning solid Scriptural truths about it.

 

[Tavita]

I think one thing that could be driving people away from church in the region you specified is safety. We take it for granted in this country that we can meet with fellow believers in safety. That's not true in countries like China, N. Korea and other places. Safety, I think, does factor into a person's decision to attend church. If it isn't safe, why risk imprisonment or death unneccessarily?

Well, yes, it could be safety, but I'm also talking of Australia and New Zealand, which are in that region as well. I only mentioned that particular zone but it's happening all over the world, America too. It's not really a safety thing in those countries... maybe God is getting Christians organized so that they can go 'underground' when the time comes that Christians will be persecuted like the Asian countries. Maybe?

 

[Rajni]

Tavita,

are not ALL Christians filled with the Holy Spirit and therefore, spiritfilled? You're not more spiritfilled because you've stopped going to church. We're not filled with the Holy Spirt because of something WE do, but because of something God does. This whole "spiritfilled" Christian thing is leading to an issue of pride in the body of Christ and that is not good.

Zaac... Just moments before (in post 250) you were giving your Amen's to a comment about what Spirit-Filled believers do and don't do. Yet here you are coming down on the spirit-filled-Christian thing. Do you think it's a good thing or a bad thing?

 

[Zaac]

Zaac... Just moments before (in post 250) you were giving your Amen's to a comment about what Spirit-Filled believers do and don't do. Yet here you are coming down on the spirit-filled-Christian thing. Do you think it's a good thing or a bad thing?

Umm Chaela, that's not my post that you quoted above.

 

[Zecryphon]

Well, yes, it could be safety, but I'm also talking of Australia and New Zealand, which are in that region as well. I only mentioned that particular zone but it's happening all over the world, America too. It's not really a safety thing in those countries... maybe God is getting Christians organized so that they can go 'underground' when the time comes that Christians will be persecuted like the Asian countries. Maybe?

I'm surprised to hear that people are leaving organized churches in Australia. I keep hearing that evangelism efforts in that country are a lot more enjoyable because the people over there have not been as exposed to the gospel as people in America have. Bascially, since they haven't heard about it they're not as stand-offish or rude, the way American audiences are when hit with the gospel message.

The are obviously, a lot of reasons that fuel a person's decision to leave any one church body. I know at my first church there was one reason I left, I moved out of state. At my last church though there were a lot of doctrinal issues and practices that I had grown to disagree with.

I don't think that Christians in this country will ever face the persecution that Christians around the world face, without a major change to the U.S. Constitution. Yeah, we're having certain things challenged, but it's not really the same as having your life depend on whether or not you're a Christian.

 

[Tavita]

Yes. Because I would honestly like to know. What purpose does attending the fellowship of the Saints hold for a universalist?

Because you REALLY want to know I'll tell ya!

I ask this because I'm trying to get my hands around the fellowship of universalist in comparison to non-universalist.

It's exactly the same.

As a Great Commission Christian, I do not forsake the assemblying of the Saints because God commands to assemble with them. And part of that fellowship is being equipped and encouraged to GO! and spread the Good News.

Yes, we are all called to 'GO'! and make disciples of all nations.

I keep coming right back to the laboring in vain that results from GOING as God commands if everyone is already saved.

Because God commanded us for a start, and because I want to see my fellow man experience and know God in this lifetime. I want to see them set free, delivered, praising God, now, and my heart wants to see men sealed in the Holy Spirit now so they can receive the rewards promised to those who are saved in this lifetime.. and who overcome the world, the flesh, and the devil (for example, we will rule and reign with Him). There is an inheritance that the saints of this age will receive that those in the following ages will not receive. There are rewards, gifts, and the treasure of knowing Jesus now... though we do not see Him, we love Him. Faith is a special, special thing.

I want my children and grandchildren (I have ten!), who live struggling, dysfunctional lives, to be filled with His Spirit, and have their lives turned around to become functional families, being sanctified, having souls that are restored to true fellowship with God and each other.

What is the incentive for a universalist to fellowship with the saints?

Because I love them!

And because I want to share Jesus with them, to fellowship, minister, pray for healing and restored lives, etc. To help them practically in their everyday lives. I love to share in the Liturgy at Church, it feels like we are one whole body worshiping God together. I guess exactly how you see it.

What's the purpose in growing in your relationship with Christ if it does not move you to want to share the Good News of why ALL should desire the same type relationship?

But I do share the Good News with people, when I'm led to, or when God brings someone across my path. Whenever there is opportunity to share the Gospel, I will.

And why should they, if they are all saved or eventually will be?

For all the reasons I gave you, above.

 

[Zecryphon]

Zaac... Just moments before (in post 250) you were giving your Amen's to a comment about what Spirit-Filled believers do and don't do. Yet here you are coming down on the spirit-filled-Christian thing. Do you think it's a good thing or a bad thing?

You've confused Zaac with Zec. That's okay. Of course how you could confuse an LCMS Lutheran with an ND, I'll never know. I think the whole "this person is spirit-fileld and that person isn't spirit-filled" statements are bogus. As Christians we are all filled with the Holy Spirit. But there are churches that teach that some Christians are more spirit-filled because of what they do. The indwelling of the Holy Spirit is something God does to us and is not dependent upon anything we do for or to God. The indwelilng or the annointing has become a status symbol among the Pentacostal and Charismatic branches of Christianity.

They wear it as a badge of honor that they think they've earned. I see this attitude alot from people who are WoF as well. There are adherents to that denomination that will not read books by authors who are not WoF because they are not filled with the Holy Spirit. This "spirit-filled" nonsense is yet another wedge dividing the body of Christ and turning certain denoms into cliques. If you need proof for this statement, watch that movie Jesus Camp.

I remember a little girl from that film saying that the churches who sit quietly and sing those boring hymns and are all serious, God considers those churches to be "dead" churches because they don't have the Holy Spirit in them. I've often wondered how that little girl would react to hearing "well you're church isn't spirit-filled because God will not give the Holy Spirit to a church has a female pastor." It'd be equally as ignorant.

 

[Zaac]

Yes, we are all called to 'GO'! and make disciples of all nations.

But if everyone is already saved, how are you making disciples?

Because God commanded us for a start, and because I want to see my fellow man experience and know God in this lifetime. I want to see them set free, delivered, praising God, now, and my heart wants to see men sealed in the Holy Spirit now so they can receive the rewards promised to those who are saved in this lifetime.. and who overcome the world, the flesh, and the devil (for example, we will rule and reign with Him). There is an inheritance that the saints of this age will receive that those in the following ages will not receive. There are rewards, gifts, and the treasure of knowing Jesus now... though we do not see Him, we love Him. Faith is a special, special thing.

But if they are all saved already, from what are they to be set free?

You say are saved. Perhaps I missed something in one of your responses waaaaaaaaaaay back. But if all are already saved by what Christ did, why are you making it sound like some have to still come into that salvation in this lifetime?

I want my children and grandchildren (I have ten!), who live struggling, dysfunctional lives, to be filled with His Spirit, and have their lives turned around to become functional families, being sanctified, having souls that are restored to true fellowship with God and each other.

If they are already saved, would not the Holy Spirit have already indwelled them?



Because I love them!

And because I want to share Jesus with them, to fellowship, minister, pray for healing and restored lives, etc. To help them practically in their everyday lives. I love to share in the Liturgy at Church, it feels like we are one whole body worshiping God together. I guess exactly how you see it.

Do you do this with the common man on the street? I ask this because if all are saved already(and perhaps its the already part that I have mistaken universalist to be saying), why would you not do those things you mentioned with them as well?

6.5 billion people on the earth right now. And universalists will have us believe that the Muslim and the satanist who reject Jesus Christ are all saved?

But I do share the Good News with people, when I'm led to, or when God brings someone across my path. Whenever there is opportunity to share the Gospel, I will.

But why? If they are already saved, why are you sharing the Good News?

 

[Tavita]

I'm surprised to hear that people are leaving organized churches in Australia. I keep hearing that evangelism efforts in that country are a lot more enjoyable because the people over there have not been as exposed to the gospel as people in America have. Bascially, since they haven't heard about it they're not as stand-offish or rude, the way American audiences are when hit with the gospel message.

Let me tell you.. Australia is not as open to the gospel as America is. Not by a long shot. Australia only consists of roughly 4% true christians who go to church. It's not that the rest haven't heard the gospel, it's that Australians are not as open, they're very skeptical and cynical. If you go to a party and start talking about God you are told to shut up... and that 'we don't talk religion or politics' at gatherings. Nowhere does anyone give thanks for food in restaurants etc, like I see in the States.The atmosphere is not as open and free to share the gospel.

I've been living here in Illinois in the States for about ten months now. I married my online CF friend over here in Illinois in October 2006 and went home to Oz for three months to come back as he'd become deathly ill. He's still a very ill man, but that's another story. I'm currently applying for a permanent visa. What I really want to say is that I'm totally blown away by how open Americans are to Christianity. I see Church buildings everywhere, I'm mean there's one on nearly every street corner! I hear people talking about God in the streets and supermarkets, I see people talk about God on tv, etc. It's not like that in Oz. I don't know much about New Zealand, as to how open they are.

I don't think that Christians in this country will ever face the persecution that Christians around the world face, without a major change to the U.S. Constitution. Yeah, we're having certain things challenged, but it's not really the same as having your life depend on whether or not you're a Christian.

It's hard to say if America will face that kind of persecution. And I've heard your constitution is being changed behind the scenes and most people don't know about it.... but it could be conspiracy theories...

 

[Zecryphon]

Let me tell you.. Australia is not as open to the gospel as America is. Not by a long shot. Australia only consists of roughly 4% true christians who go to church. It's not that the rest haven't heard the gospel, it's that Australians are not as open, they're very skeptical and cynical. If you go to a party and start talking about God you are told to shut up... and that 'we don't talk religion or politics' at gatherings. Nowhere does anyone give thanks for food in restaurants etc, like I see in the States.The atmosphere is not as open and free to share the gospel.

I've been living here in Illinois in the States for about ten months now. I married my online CF friend over here in Illinois in October 2006 and went home to Oz for three months to come back as he'd become deathly ill. He's still a very ill man, but that's another story. I'm currently applying for a permanent visa. What I really want to say is that I'm totally blown away by how open Americans are to Christianity. I see Church buildings everywhere, I'm mean there's one on nearly every street corner! I hear people talking about God in the streets and supermarkets, I see people talk about God on tv, etc. It's not like that in Oz. I don't know much about New Zealand, as to how open they are.
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It's hard to say if America will face that kind of persecution. And I've heard your constitution is being changed behind the scenes and most people don't know about it.... but it could be conspiracy theories...

It'd be very hard to change the Constitution behind the scenes. But we have watchdog groups like the ACLJ that watch what's going on in relation to Constitutional law and Christianity. If what you heard was a conspiracy theory, in the end it will all come back to the Templars. It always does. LOL

www.aclj.org

 

[Floatingaxe]

As I told Zaac, there are probably in the hundreds of thousands leaving the organized churches in the Asia Pacific Region alone. They are the ones who are more likely to be Spirit filled and open to hearing from God than those who sit in traditional settings just listening to the preacher instead of God.

Nothing wrong with home churches. I am sure many of them are leaving the Catholic church.

 

[Tavita]

But if everyone is already saved, how are you making disciples?

A disciple is not the same as one who simply believes. A disciple is one who follows and learns from his/her Teacher. You can go and get people to say the sinners prayer and they experience their salvation, but that is not making a disciple. One needs to be trained to be a disciple. Many christians never become disciples in the true sense of the word. They don't want to learn and grow, they stay stagnate. We are called to grow in grace, because salvation is to be worked out in fear and trembling. (I don't want to have any works that are not built on the foundation that is Christ, as they will be burnt up. That's gotta be painful!)

But if they are all saved already, from what are they to be set free?

From the manner of life they lived in before coming to Christ. From mindsets that are opposed to God. From the world's culture that has been ingrained into all of us and learning to live in the culture or Kingdom of God. From negative and soulish attitudes. Anything that is not of God. To be set free of their sin nature... and yes, just because I believe all are going to be saved, it still has to be appropriated. I know that. It doesn't go against any universalist teachings, because we believe that people will 'receive' their salvation in the next age or ages. Even though legally, Jesus has paid the penalty, it still has to be appropriated in a person's life.

You say are saved. Perhaps I missed something in one of your responses waaaaaaaaaaay back. But if all are already saved by what Christ did, why are you making it sound like some have to still come into that salvation in this lifetime?

I think I answered that above.

If they are already saved, would not the Holy Spirit have already indwelled them?

It's got to be appropriated.

Do you do this with the common man on the street? I ask this because if all are saved already(and perhaps its the already part that I have mistaken universalist to be saying), why would you not do those things you mentioned with them as well?

Would I go tell the common man on the street? Well, if the Holy Spirit led me to.

6.5 billion people on the earth right now. And universalists will have us believe that the Muslim and the satanist who reject Jesus Christ are all saved?

Legally they are. It has to be appropriated.

But why? If they are already saved, why are you sharing the Good News?

Because I want them to know Jesus now. Isn't that a good enough reason for you, Zaac, you keep asking me over and over.

 

[Rajni]

Umm Chaela, that's not my post that you quoted above.

I double-checked just to be sure I wasn't having one of my blond moments, lol. Post #250 is your post, where you gave your "Amen" to a statement saying what "spirit-filled" believers do and don't do. Then you expressed a dislike for this "spirit filled believer" talk when Tavita brought it up. So I was wondering where you stood on that since you went in two different directions regarding it.

 

[Rajni]

I keep coming right back to the laboring in vain that results from GOING as God commands if everyone is already saved.

We go because we are commanded to. That should be reason enough for any God-fearin' feller.

Not only that, if it's official that the slaves are already free, they should be told so that they'll know this important piece of information and not continue living under the impression that they're still slaves with no other options.

 

[Floatingaxe]

That should be reason enough for any God-fearin' feller.

God-fearin'? Why is that? Aren't we all supposed to be going to His party?

 

[Rajni]

Great schools of halibut! I see where I got confused!

Sorry about that! Zaac. Zec. Okay. Got it! LOL!!! Again, my sincerest apologies!

I agree with your points. A "Christian" and a "Spirit-Filled-Person" are the same thing. "Christian" has fewer syllables, though, which is nice when you are in a hurry, lol.

I totally believe what you're saying about denominations that forbid their adherents reading publications they don't endorse. There are several that do that.

You've confused Zaac with Zec. That's okay.Of course how you could confuse an LCMS Lutheran with an ND, I'll never know. I think the whole "this person is spirit-fileld and that person isn't spirit-filled" statements are bogus. As Christians we are all filled with the Holy Spirit. But there are churches that teach that some Christians are more spirit-filled because of what they do. The indwelling of the Holy Spirit is something God does to us and is not dependent upon anything we do for or to God. The indwelilng or the annointing has become a status symbol among the Pentacostal and Charismatic branches of Christianity.

They wear it as a badge of honor that they think they've earned. I see this attitude alot from people who are WoF as well. There are adherents to that denomination that will not read books by authors who are not WoF because they are not filled with the Holy Spirit. This "spirit-filled" nonsense is yet another wedge dividing the body of Christ and turning certain denoms into cliques. If you need proof for this statement, watch that movie Jesus Camp.

I remember a little girl from that film saying that the churches who sit quietly and sing those boring hymns and are all serious, God considers those churches to be "dead" churches because they don't have the Holy Spirit in them. I've often wondered how that little girl would react to hearing "well you're church isn't spirit-filled because God will not give the Holy Spirit to a church has a female pastor." It'd be equally as ignorant.

 

[Zecryphon]

I double-checked just to be sure I wasn't having one of my blond moments, lol. Post #250 is your post, where you gave your "Amen" to a statement saying what "spirit-filled" believers do and don't do. Then you expressed a dislike for this "spirit filled believer" talk when Tavita brought it up. So I was wondering where you stood on that since you went in two different directions regarding it.

.

 

[Zaac]

A disciple is not the same as one who simply believes. A disciple is one who follows and learns from his/her Teacher. You can go and get people to say the sinners prayer and they experience their salvation, but that is not making a disciple. One needs to be trained to be a disciple. Many christians never become disciples in the true sense of the word. They don't want to learn and grow, they stay stagnate. We are called to grow in grace, because salvation is to be worked out in fear and trembling. (I don't want to have any works that are not built on the foundation that is Christ, as they will be burnt up. That's gotta be painful!)

We got another thread going on the sinners prayer. A prayer ain't saved nobody. And if they are already saved, what are they saying a prayer for?

From the manner of life they lived in before coming to Christ.

But they are all already saved so why are they coming to Christ?

From mindsets that are opposed to God. From the world's culture that has been ingrained into all of us and learning to live in the culture or Kingdom of God. From negative and soulish attitudes. Anything that is not of God. To be set free of their sin nature... and yes, just because I believe all are going to be saved, it still has to be appropriated. I know that. It doesn't go against any universalist teachings, because we believe that people will 'receive' their salvation in the next age or ages.

All are going to be saved. So you're saying that all will eventually go through the process of coming to faith in Jesus Christ...even the ones who have committed the unforgiveable sin?

Because I want them to know Jesus now. Isn't that a good enough reason for you, Zaac, you keep asking me over and over.

You want them to know Jesus now. How do you know that He wants to know them now and not later? Now I ask this because you're making it sound like its because its what you want and not what God wants.

And if it still has to be appropriated in their lives, then it stands to reason that it is never appropriated in some lives.

 

[Rajni]

God-fearin'? Why is that? Aren't we all supposed to be going to His party?

"God fearin'" is slang for "Christian".

 

[Zaac]

We go because we are commanded to. That should be reason enough for any God-fearin' feller.

Not only that, if it's official that the slaves are already free, they should be told so that they'll know this important piece of information and not continue living under the impression that they're still slaves with no other options.

This just goes against good theology.If a slave is free, you going to tell him he is free isn't going to change the way he behaves. The spirit has to be changed. And if the spirit has already indwelled all, there's no need for you to tell them anything about being free and how they should be living.

You're speaking as though you going to tell them that they are free is what will cause them to start living as though they are free.

Men are set free by the hearing of God's Word, not by hearing that they are no longer slaves with no other options. So what is making them free, your words or the Word of God?