Universalism: pros and cons

[Tkjjc]

Yes it is the Universalists who deny the entire message of salvation for the redeemed and condemnation for the sinner.

Confusion reigns there...

For the redeemed? Why would anyone deny that salvation as they are IN Christ NOW? There you go again, I suppose, putting words into our mouths. You are getting good at it.

To be a sinner, one must first KNOW they are a sinner. Unless you KNOW you are a sinner, how would one become redeemed, or have the knowledge of this redemption? You condemn them without any sort of Justice from God outside of Jesus, who actually did come to SAVE the WHOLE WORLD. He will succeed, as He doesn't LIE.

See, your pieces have begun falling apart. Jesus says that people will do things IN HIS NAME, and that they really didn't KNOW HIM, or what His message was. He doesn't wish for those people to even be in His presence. Think that applies to us? He preached the gospel of Love to the Whole World, and that He came to Save it, and that His Father sent Him to RECONCILE ALL, and we are the ones who are wrong? Interesting indeed.

 

[Nadiine]

SpiritDriven: Now the problem with non believers, or people who say they are Christians, but are not really, because they just do not believe the Gospel (scary thought eh) is that they will argue till they are blue in the face that not every Knee in Creation will bow to Jesus, and that not every tounge will confess Jesus is Lord to the Glory of God the Father.

They are not really Christians.....are we to argue with non believers ?

First off, I'm a born again believer, you tell us that we have to believe this verse to BE Christians, yet I've seen you IGNORE many we've asked YOU to explain yet refuse to.
DO YOU NOT BELIEVE THE VERSES WE GIVE YOU? Are YOU a Christian?

& this statement comes from a Universalist? If the idolaters who worship false gods, occultists, pedophiles, murderers, rapists, adulterers, abortionists, extortionists & homosexuals all so easily make it into God's pearly gates on Jesus' merciful coattails, then why is there even this negative connotation of "some of us" here being "LOST" and "do not believe the bible (scary thought eh)"
Even an issue???

What does SD care if we weren't believers & rejected the bible? What the heck does it matter in his worldview? lol

This is what I mean about not making sense. They say they believe one thing, then look at the judgmental statements of retribution about "not being Christians" & how horrible the thought! As IF that matters in Universalism? And AS IF other nonbelievers who are serial killers & rapists are on God's mercy list instead??

Also, SD isn't even reading our posts to give such a false accusation. Possibly even a a lie becuz we've already stated 2 times in another thread that we do believe it, we merely told you that it doesn't prove Universalism becuz you ignore the possibility that they're NOT repentant of their sin, and being forced to bow & confess....
Look where they confess from in the rest of the verse:
and [things] under the earth
UNDER THE EARTH is also where they're bowing & confessing from.

Just like the captives of war were forced to do in ancient times before the king who took them captive.

By the by SD, in Mark 5, the demons inside the demoniac worshipped Jesus, the demon is speaking to Jesus becuz it immediately recognizes Jesus as the "Son of the most high God" (which the Jews were rejecting as true). Demons believe & know God and tremble/shudder. So every knee bowing does NOT support Universalism.

2 And when He [Jesus] had come out of the boat, immediately there met Him out of the tombs a man with an unclean spirit,
5 And always, night and day, he was in the mountains and in the tombs, crying out and cutting himself with stones.
6 When he saw Jesus from afar, he ran and worshiped Him.
7 And he cried out with a loud voice and said, “What have I to do with You, Jesus, Son of the Most High God? I implore You by God that You do not torment me.”
8 For He said to him, “Come out of the man, unclean spirit!”
9 Then He asked him, “What is your name?”
And he answered, saying, “My name is Legion; for we are many.”
10 Also he begged Him earnestly that He would not send them out of the country.

The demon expected Jesus to torment it as well... hmm
Demons believe in God. The demons immediately recognized Jesus & worshiped Him and began speaking with Him. Demons aren't repentant and they aren't saved by faith.

Every knee bowing doesn't mean everyone's SAVED or repentant who's doing it. God created us to give glory to Him, HE WILL RECIEVE IT from all so His will is accomplished, that ALL know He is God.
This will occur from Under the earth as well

 

[Nadiine]

To be a sinner, one must first KNOW they are a sinner. Unless you KNOW you are a sinner, how would one become redeemed, or have the knowledge of this redemption? You condemn them without any sort of Justice from God outside of Jesus, who actually did come to SAVE the WHOLE WORLD. He will succeed, as He doesn't LIE.

So nobody is a "sinner", until they "KNOW" they are? Kinda defeats the whole "in Adam all die" becuz it's SIN that brings death... That's a BIG problem.

Did you read Romans 1:18-22 like we suggested? It tells you what people all know becuz God has shown them and they are without excuse. They're also seen "supressing the truth in all unrighteousness" - they KNOW, they're pushing it down.

They don't KNOW they're sinners?? The truth is, they KNOW they are, they have to REPENT OF IT.

You're conveniently forgetting that God's moral law is written on man's heart to KNOW right from wrong. The inner conscience is proof of that knowledge.

Additionally, what did Jesus send the Holy Spirit to do?
John 16:8
7 Nevertheless I tell you the truth. It is to your advantage that I go away; for if I do not go away, the Helper will not come to you; but if I depart, I will send Him to you.
8 And when He has come, He will convict the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment:
9 of sin, because they do not believe in Me;

The Holy Spirit has been convicting the world of their sin since He came to earth thousands of yrs. ago. It is His function. Are you now going to tell me that His Spirit has failed or hasn't done His duty???

I highly suggest you start digging into the Bible to learn the truth it teaches [everywhere else] becuz post after post, the more you try to weave your doctrine to fit your ideology, the more scripture you refute and deny in the process.

This is nothing more than trying to create a doctrine at the expense of the rest of the scripture. Peter warned about this:

2 Pet. 3:15-16 (amplified)
...even as our beloved brother Paul also wrote to you according to the spiritual insight given him,
16 Speaking of this as he does in all of his letters. There are some things in those [epistles of Paul] that are difficult to understand, which the ignorant and unstable twist and misconstrue to their own utter destruction, just as [they distort and misinterpret] the rest of the Scriptures.

See, your pieces have begun falling apart.

Actually YOURS have, you just fail to notice it.

Jesus says that people will do things IN HIS NAME, and that they really didn't KNOW HIM, or what His message was. He doesn't wish for those people to even be in His presence. Think that applies to us? He preached the gospel of Love to the Whole World, and that He came to Save it, and that His Father sent Him to RECONCILE ALL, and we are the ones who are wrong? Interesting indeed

Um, this does NOTHING to help your refutation.

The facts ARE what they are. How can Jesus "not know" His own creation?
Doesn't God save them all? How can he tell THEM to depart when He allows in rapists & pedophiles & adulterers?.. again, you fail to explain WHERE they depart to when they're "workers of SIN" too.
WHERE do they depart to? How do they flee HIs presence at judgment when He's in His full glory?

All this is not stated anywhere! And they NEVER get reinstated back INTO His presence! Please show me that. Where are they ??
The rest of the bible tells you where they're going; they're with the other workers of iniquity (GOATS/TARES), IN GEHENNA where they WILL be separated from His presence in punishment and SHUT OUT FROM HIS PRESENCE.
God made Gehenna for this purpose of shutting them out of His presence - He's told them to depart from Him.
They're cast out/bannished.

Revelation 22:15
14 Blessed are those who do His commandments, that they may have the right to the tree of life, and may enter through the gates into the city.
15 But outside are dogs and sorcerers and sexually immoral and murderers and idolaters, and whoever loves and practices a lie.

Thru the gates into God's city -- THE NARROW WAY... FEW find it. (WHERE DOES IT SAY ALL FIND THE NARROW & ENTER IN??)

Matthew 7:14
13 “Enter by the narrow gate; for wide is the gate and broad is the way that leads to destruction, and there are many who go in by it.
14 Because narrow is the gate and difficult is the way which leads to life, and there are few who find it.

(this is in the same context with Mat. 7:21-23 about not letting in the false believers)

 

[Floatingaxe]

For the redeemed? Why would anyone deny that salvation as they are IN Christ NOW? There you go again, I suppose, putting words into our mouths. You are getting good at it.

To be a sinner, one must first KNOW they are a sinner. Unless you KNOW you are a sinner, how would one become redeemed, or have the knowledge of this redemption? You condemn them without any sort of Justice from God outside of Jesus, who actually did come to SAVE the WHOLE WORLD. He will succeed, as He doesn't LIE.

See, your pieces have begun falling apart. Jesus says that people will do things IN HIS NAME, and that they really didn't KNOW HIM, or what His message was. He doesn't wish for those people to even be in His presence. Think that applies to us? He preached the gospel of Love to the Whole World, and that He came to Save it, and that His Father sent Him to RECONCILE ALL, and we are the ones who are wrong? Interesting indeed.

The redeemed do not know actual salvation until they see God. It's that simple, but we do consider ourselves saved now. We use that language, but salvation is realized upon our physical death.

Those who do not know Jesus as their own personal Saviour will NOT enter into the Kingdom--ever. That includes demons who also KNOW that they are sinners...and love it.

 

[Nadiine]

Well lets get down to the Truth, of how God will accomplish 1 Timothy 2.4

8 and, being found in fashion as a human, He humbles Himself, becoming obedient unto death, even the death of the cross.
9 Wherefore, also, God highly exalts Him, and graces Him with the name that is above every name,
10 that in the name of Jesus every knee should be bowing, celestial and terrestrial and subterranean,
11 and every tongue should be acclaiming that Jesus Christ is Lord, for the glory of God, the Father.

Now the problem with non believers, or people who say they are Christians, but are not really, because they just do not believe the Gospel (scary thought eh) is that they will argue till they are blue in the face that not every Knee in Creation will bow to Jesus, and that not every tounge will confess Jesus is Lord to the Glory of God the Father.

They are not really Christians.....are we to argue with non believers ?

I'll just repost what I gave Tk in another post this am. on God's will:

We've been over God's WILL repeatedly. That doesn't support Universalism.

ANSWER: PERMISSIVE WILL AND PERFECT WILL.

HIS PERMISSIVE WILL allows people their choices to disobey & do evil and the worst evil of all: rejection of Jesus Christ and refusal to repent of sin.

Do you even listen to our replies? NO ONE has answered me on this issue of God's will. SD made an attempt by saying scripture doesn't oppose itself.
THAT'S NOT AN ANSWER.

DOES GOD WILL THE MOTHER TO ABORT HER BABY?
DOES GOD WILL THE PEDOPHILE TO MOLEST A CHILD?
DOES GOD WILL ADULTS TO SELL CHILDREN INTO PROSTITUTION?
Does God WANT THEM TO DO AND CAUSE THEM TO DO THESE EVILS?

(and how does this align with His perfect Law and will of Loving neighbor as yourself - doing good to others?)

If God has only ONE will, Does God's will oppose itself?


http://www.apuritansmind.com/Francis...nwillofgod.htm

Boyce quotes Turretine:

Quote:

(1.) The first distinction is between the decretive and preceptive will of God.

By the decretive will is meant that will of God by which he purposes or decrees, whatever shall come to pass, whether he will to accomplish it himself effectively, or causatively, or to permit it to occur through the unrestrained agency or will of his creatures. In either case, however, he has determined, purposed, or decreed, either to bring it to pass, or to cause, or to permit it to be brought to pass.

By the preceptive will is meant that which he has prescribed to be done by others. Such are the laws under which he places his creatures, or the duties which he enjoins upon them. It is the rule of duty. The decretive will must always be fulfilled;
the preceptive may be disobeyed, and therefore remain unfulfilled.

 

[SpiritDriven]

Well Gods intentions for all men will not remain un full filled Nadine....you see what the Hell preachers fail to grasp is the over powering Will of God in the end.

They are blinded to it for a season...by God...how are they supposse to believe when that belief is with held from them by God ?
When we read Romans 9 we read that nobody can resist Gods intention....those who have been called are well aware of how the gifts and calling of God are irrevocable.

You either believe God or you do not....you can argue till you are blue in the face that you do not believe the word of God....we are already well aware that you do not.

 

[Nadiine]

Well Gods intentions for all men will not remain un full filled Nadine....you see what the Hell preachers fail to grasp is the over powering Will of God in the end.

They are blinded to it for a season...by God...how are they supposse to believe when that belief is with held from them by God ?
When we read Romans 9 we read that nobody can resist Gods intention....those who have been called are well aware of how the gifts and calling of God are irrevocable.

You either believe God or you do not....you can argue till you are blue in the face that you do not believe the word of God....we are already well aware that you do not.

[my red emphasis]
I believe GOD, it's YOU I struggle with - becuz again, YOU FAILED TO ANSWER MY QUESTIONS PUT FORTH TO YOU.

DOES GOD WILL THE MOTHER TO ABORT HER BABY?
DOES GOD WILL THE PEDOPHILE TO MOLEST A CHILD?
DOES GOD WILL ADULTS TO SELL CHILDREN INTO PROSTITUTION?
Does God WANT THEM TO DO AND CAUSE THEM TO DO THESE EVILS?

(and how does this align with His perfect Law and will of Loving neighbor as yourself - doing good to others?)

If God has only ONE will, Does God's will oppose itself?

------------------------------------------
You keep promoting Romans 9 SD. But in Romans 9 we see God Himself literally HARDENING Pharaoh's heart.
Is God likewise causing the mother to abort her child becuz it's His will that she abort her baby?
-----------------------------------------.
If you want to use Romans 9, then keep it in context to notice that it's GOD doing the hardening - and it's HIS WILL to harden pharoahs heart into further rebellion.
SO IS GOD LIKEWISE CAUSING THE MOTHER TO ABORT HER BABY?

My assertion is that you cannot answer them becuz they are contradictory to your claims about who God is and His ultimate will of love and salvation and mercy to all - no matter WHAT they do; including rejection of God & refusal to repent.


***the point made here is that God may WILL that all come to salvation, but we see that God is allowing people to commit evil and do what He does NOT will them to do.
Therefore, He can (and does) also WILL to allow them to reject His gift of salvation to them, and therefore, NOT BE SAVED - by their refusal to repent & seek His sacrifice.

 

[Floatingaxe]

Well Gods intentions for all men will not remain un full filled Nadine....you see what the Hell preachers fail to grasp is the over powering Will of God in the end.

They are blinded to it for a season...by God...how are they supposse to believe when that belief is with held from them by God ?
When we read Romans 9 we read that nobody can resist Gods intention....those who have been called are well aware of how the gifts and calling of God are irrevocable.

You either believe God or you do not....you can argue till you are blue in the face that you do not believe the word of God....we are already well aware that you do not.

No one can resist God's intentions to banish them from His sight forever also, when they deserve it. I happen to believe God and take Him at His word.

 

[CaDan]

Let's knock off the speculation about who in this thread is and is not Christian.​

 

[SpiritDriven]

[my red emphasis]
I believe GOD, it's YOU I struggle with - becuz again, YOU FAILED TO ANSWER MY QUESTIONS PUT FORTH TO YOU.


------------------------------------------
You keep promoting Romans 9 SD. But in Romans 9 we see God Himself literally HARDENING Pharaoh's heart.
Is God likewise causing the mother to abort her child becuz it's His will that she abort her baby?
-----------------------------------------.
If you want to use Romans 9, then keep it in context to notice that it's GOD doing the hardening - and it's HIS WILL to harden pharoahs heart into further rebellion.
SO IS GOD LIKEWISE CAUSING THE MOTHER TO ABORT HER BABY?

My assertion is that you cannot answer them becuz they are contradictory to your claims about who God is and His ultimate will of love and salvation and mercy to all - no matter WHAT they do; including rejection of God & refusal to repent.


***the point made here is that God may WILL that all come to salvation, but we see that God is allowing people to commit evil and do what He does NOT will them to do.
Therefore, He can (and does) also WILL to allow them to reject His gift of salvation to them, and therefore, NOT BE SAVED - by their refusal to repent & seek His sacrifice.

Nadine I am not refering to the current wicked era we live in...Im refering to the point of time when every knee will bow and every tounge will confess Jesus is Lord......because he has reigned so well...he does away with the need for it...and then hands the Kingdom over to the Father so that God will be all in all

The consumation of Gods plan for man is long ways off yet....I have no idea why God has chosen to do things that way...its his plan after all.

We have no idea how much time is left in this era...we know for sure that the Kingdom era is 1000 years, we have no idea how long the New Heaven New Earth Era will be for....that could be many thousands of years...like this current era...we just do not know...the Consumation comes at the end of the New Heaven New Earth era.

It is accross these ages/eras/eons that all come to the knowledge of the truth...one way or the other.

That is the intention of God as announced in 1 Timothy 2.4....Romans 9.19 for who has resisted his intention....some bibles translate..nobody can resist his will.


Peace

 

[Floatingaxe]

Let's knock off the speculation about who in this thread is and is not Christian.​

Who is that? Amelia Earhart?

 

[Zaac]

No one can resist God's intentions to banish them from His sight forever also, when they deserve it. I happen to believe God and take Him at His word.

Confusion continues to abound on this lil universalism issue and that's how I know the doctrine is not of God.

For 6000+ years, the Church has been teaching repent just as Jesus says. Every now and then, teachers of false doctrine emerge and attempt to establish their false teachings as the new revelatory way.

But the Bible says 14But as for you, continue in what you have learned and have become convinced of, because you know those from whom you learned it, 15and how from infancy you have known the holy Scriptures, which are able to make you wise for salvation through faith in Christ Jesus. 2 Timothy 3:14-15

There is still no need for repentance or spreading of the GOOD NEWS if everyone is already saved.

There was no need to destroy Sodom or the cities on the plain with Sodom.

There was no need for a Great Flood.

There was no need for Jonah to go to the Ninevites.

There was no need for Job to be tested.

There was no need for Paul to have an Amaeus road experience.

There was no need for Peter to be crucified upside down.

There was no need for Nate Saint ,Ed McCully, Roger Youderian, and Pete Fleming to die in the jungles of Ecuador.

There is no need for Christians to continue to be persecuted in North Korea, Vietnam, Laos, Sri Lanka Bhutan, Maldives, Serbia (Kosovo), Afghanistan, Thailand, China, Lebanon, Syria, the Sudan Darfur, Cambodia, Egypt, and Turkey, the United States or any other country if all are saved.

If all are saved, why the continued martyrdom and persecution of Christians?

If all are saved, why is the enemy so adamant in leading people to worship the false gods of Islam, Hinduism, Buddhism and the other isms?

God is a jealous God. And He did not send His Son to die on that cross so that everyone could continue to worship whatever god they want.

A choice will be made. Either folks will CHOOSE to worship Jesus Christ and Jesus Christ ALONE, or they will spend eternity in the lake of fire with hell, satan, the false prophet, death and destruction.

The integrity of God's Word will be maintained. And false doctrine always confuses the truth.

All are not saved and some will spend eternity separated from God in that burning lake of sulphur.

 

[Tavita]

Confusion continues to abound on this lil universalism issue and that's how I know the doctrine is not of God.

For 6000+ years, the Church has been teaching repent just as Jesus says. Every now and then, teachers of false doctrine emerge and attempt to establish their false teachings as the new revelatory way.

But the Bible says 14But as for you, continue in what you have learned and have become convinced of, because you know those from whom you learned it, 15and how from infancy you have known the holy Scriptures, which are able to make you wise for salvation through faith in Christ Jesus. 2 Timothy 3:14-15

There is still no need for repentance or spreading of the GOOD NEWS if everyone is already saved.

There was no need to destroy Sodom or the cities on the plain with Sodom.

There was no need for a Great Flood.

There was no need for Jonah to go to the Ninevites.

There was no need for Job to be tested.

There was no need for Paul to have an Amaeus road experience.

There was no need for Peter to be crucified upside down.

There was no need for Nate Saint ,Ed McCully, Roger Youderian, and Pete Fleming to die in the jungles of Ecuador.

There is no need for Christians to continue to be persecuted in North Korea, Vietnam, Laos, Sri Lanka Bhutan, Maldives, Serbia (Kosovo), Afghanistan, Thailand, China, Lebanon, Syria, the Sudan Darfur, Cambodia, Egypt, and Turkey, the United States or any other country if all are saved.

If all are saved, why the continued martyrdom and persecution of Christians?

If all are saved, why is the enemy so adamant in leading people to worship the false gods of Islam, Hinduism, Buddhism and the other isms?

God is a jealous God. And He did not send His Son to die on that cross so that everyone could continue to worship whatever god they want.

A choice will be made. Either folks will CHOOSE to worship Jesus Christ and Jesus Christ ALONE, or they will spend eternity in the lake of fire with hell, satan, the false prophet, death and destruction.

The integrity of God's Word will be maintained. And false doctrine always confuses the truth.

All are not saved and some will spend eternity separated from God in that burning lake of sulphur.

"There is still no need for repentance or spreading of the GOOD NEWS if everyone is already saved."

You keep harping on about that Zaac, even after several UR's have given their position on it. What you have written is not the truth, and you are misleading people into thinking that that's the way UR's view God's plan of salvation. That we will just give up on testifying and witnessing and preaching, etc, and even that we will have no incentive now to stop sinning... which is sooo ludicrous because it makes Christ's sacrifice of no effect.

Get a bigger picture of the scriptures and what God's purposes are. Here we have some insight...

Eph 1:9 making known to us the mystery of his will, according to his purpose, which he set forth in Christ
Eph 1:10 as a plan for the fullness of time, to unite all things in him, things in heaven and things on earth.

Eph 3:9 and to bring to light for everyone what is the plan of the mystery hidden for ages in God who created all things,
Eph 3:10 so that through the church the manifold wisdom of God might now be made known to the rulers and authorities in the heavenly places.

There is an inheritance, promises, rewards, treasures, blessings.. given to you who believe in this lifetime that those who receive Christ later will not have.

 

[Rajni]

In response to post #169

I gave YOU scripture, so what do YOU do with Mat. 7:21-23????

One thing I don't do with it is allow it to persuade me that verses such as Romans 8:19-23 were a lie. Another thing about those verses in Matthew -- people who don't agree that salvation is a free gift will also put forward those verses to argue that salvation is based on works.

So find out how MY verses mesh with YOURS or else you're working from a messed up bible that is useless to bring truth.

They mesh beautifully. Nothing in your verses cancels out the eventual restoration of all creation.

Something isn't fitting together here. I'm not just here to attack Universalism - the whole bible has to make sense & teach one fluent truth.

It does. So far I have had little problem reconciling the entirety of it. The verses that indicate how sternly God will handle unbelievers and the verses proclaiming the ultimate salvation of all work perfectly together.

We don't just cut out bible verses like coupons out of the Sunday paper & pretend they dissappeared now that we have gaping holes in the pages to suit our opinions.

I don't think anyone was saying you were. Besides, coupons generally work better at the register than the verses.

He tells them He doesn't know them, to depart from Him & they're workers of Sin. That tells me that we can't just read in that ALL get in & restored when we have other scriptures saying something else.

The verses aren't saying anything that contradicts anything else. Telling my children to depart from me & go to their room for a finite period of time isn't tantamount to endlessly punishing them.

Mat 7:23 SHOULD have continued to give an exemption clause that it would be TEMPORARY & they're reunited later back into His presence. (anything)

If Matthew 7:23 were all that made up the entire bible, then, yes, it would need such a clause. Fortunately, however, Scripture consists of a wealth of other verses to provide the overall context. Take Scripture in it's entire context, and all the clauses one needs are provided.

Incl. the parables that give direct differences of wheat/tares & sheep/goats being separated. I also see no one getting back out of Gehenna in any detail.

Apparently they do. According to the "Authorized Version", the King James Bible, Jonah himself escaped a place from which modern theologians insist there is no escape. (See Jonah 2:2). If "hell" is the proper word to use in that sentence, and Gehenna is the same thing as hell, and hell is a place of endless torment, then, as we can see with Jonah, God does deliver from there too.

 

[Rajni]

From #195

They don't even know when the book of Revelation was even written, and can at best, guess. But guess only when it suits their brand of doctrines, of course. Don't count those Jews who died in 70AD, and had their bodies burned outside the gates, in the actual Gehenna.

Amen. It can be argued that the events in Revelation already took place, putting such things as the Lake of Fire well into the past. But that's a whole 'nother thread, LOL!

 

[Rajni]

You keep promoting Romans 9 SD. But in Romans 9

we see God Himself literally HARDENING Pharaoh's heart. Is God likewise causing the mother to abort her child becuz it's His will that she abort her baby?

As it is written, He has mercy on who He wants, and He hardens who He wants. If one can see God tormenting 95% of His creation in hell endlessly, why cannot one see Him causing short-term suffering in a temporal realm to achieve a higher purpose that can only be for the good of all involved?

I also don't see much point in differentiating between a Sovereign God causing something to happen and allowing it to happen when it's well within His power to prevent it.

 

[Zaac]

"There is still no need for repentance or spreading of the GOOD NEWS if everyone is already saved."

You keep harping on about that Zaac, even after several UR's have given their position on it. What you have written is not the truth, and you are misleading people into thinking that that's the way UR's view God's plan of salvation. That we will just give up on testifying and witnessing and preaching, etc, and even that we will have no incentive now to stop sinning... which is sooo ludicrous because it makes Christ's sacrifice of no effect.

Get a bigger picture of the scriptures and what God's purposes are. Here we have some insight...

Eph 1:9 making known to us the mystery of his will, according to his purpose, which he set forth in Christ
Eph 1:10 as a plan for the fullness of time, to unite all things in him, things in heaven and things on earth.

Eph 3:9 and to bring to light for everyone what is the plan of the mystery hidden for ages in God who created all things,
Eph 3:10 so that through the church the manifold wisdom of God might now be made known to the rulers and authorities in the heavenly places.

There is an inheritance, promises, rewards, treasures, blessings.. given to you who believe in this lifetime that those who receive Christ later will not have.

Yep. I tend to harp on and on about the truth. There just ain't too much you can say other than calling this doctrine of everyone being saved a lie.

Yall continue to open this can of worms that throws God's Word into confusion and it is not of Him.

And the Scripture you quoted might support your point if this notion of everyone being saved was consistent from the start of Scripture to the end.

Principles of truth remain the same because they are absolute. All are not saved and all will not be saved because God's Word testifies as such.

Just as there is an unforgiveable sin committed by man, there are those who will not be saved PERIOD because God says so.

 

[Rajni]

From Post#219

Just as there is an unforgiveable sin committed by man, there are those who will not be saved PERIOD because God says so.

Calvinism teaches that most will not be saved period because God says so. Believing this, why do Calvinists share the gospel at all, since the average person they come into contact with most likely won't make it anyway (according to their logic)?

 

[Floatingaxe]

From Post#219



Calvinism teaches that most will not be saved period because God says so. Believing this, why do Calvinists share the gospel at all, since the average person they come into contact with most likely won't make it anyway (according to their logic)?

We aren't discussing Calvinism (whatever that is!)!

We are discussing what the word of God says and what you are in denial of. As God tells us there is an unforgiveable sin, and He also tells us that many, many will NOT see the Kingdom, and will perish in everlasting fire, why do you proclaim God a LIAR?

 

[Zaac]

Apparently they do. According to the "Authorized Version", the King James Bible, Jonah himself escaped a place from which modern theologians insist there is no escape. (See Jonah 2:2). If "hell" is the proper word to use in that sentence, and Gehenna is the same thing as hell, and hell is a place of endless torment, then, as we can see with Jonah, God does deliver from there too.

Then lets get technical. Technically they are taken out of Gehenna and stand before the Great White Throne of Judgment. They are then righteously judged and thrown into the lake of fire.

Revelation 20:11-15:

11 Then I saw a great white throne and him who was seated on it. From his presence earth and sky fled away, and no place was found for them. 12 And I saw the dead, great and small, standing before the throne, and books were opened. Then another book was opened, which is the book of life. And the dead were judged by what was written in the books, according to what they had done. 13 And the sea gave up the dead who were in it, Death and Hades gave up the dead who were in them, and they were judged, each one of them, according to what they had done. 14 Then Death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death, the lake of fire. 15 And if anyone's name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire