Universal Salvation - Did you know that this is at the core of the Gospel?

[Hewillcome2040]

Hello,
Thank you for your reply and time.



I agree with you. Someone here is not understanding this verse. I notice you wish to bring in Greek words, lets do. Let us show what the scripture says in 2 Thessalonians 1:8-9.





I disagree. You seem to have the correct Greek word, but I believe your trouble is understanding context/reading comprehension. Do not take this as an insult as it is not intended to be. You also do not seem to know the definition of anionios, so I will show you below the correct definition.

Pulling up verse 9 of 2 Thessalonians 1:

"Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;"

The word you are putting into question is, "everlasting". You are telling me that this DOES NOT mean "forever for all time, never ending". I am telling you that it DOES.

So, the word that you seem to already know aiōnios or everlasting:

"αἰώνιος aiṓnios, ahee-o'-nee-os; from G165; perpetual (also used of past time, or past and future as well):—eternal, for ever, everlasting, world (began)."

Now, here is the context options for the word in question. These are 3 different ways that the Greek language uses this word fitting with the context of the sentence structure.

1-without beginning and end, that which always has been and always will be;
2-without beginning
3-without end, never to cease, everlasting

It is the same word used in Hebrews 9:12 which says,

"Neither by the blood of goats and calves, but by his own blood he entered in once into the holy place, having obtained eternal[aiōnios] redemption for us."

So if what you say is correct, then Jesus DID NOT obtain redemption for us "for all time forever and ever, never ending". So what your telling me is that Jesus has to die on the cross a second time?

If you still do not get it, look at 2 Peter 1:11, which says,
"For so an entrance shall be ministered unto you abundantly into the everlasting[aiōnios] kingdom of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ."

Are you telling me that the "kingdom of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ" is something that will end? Are you telling me it is not "never ending"?

These two examples I have shown you are the same exact word used in 2 Thessalonians 1:9.



Let me answer your question with my questions, if that is okay.

Luke 16, the story of the Rich Man.

If torment was, as you say, temporary, then why does the Rich man beg so persistently to have someone warn his family before they meet the same fate?

Why doesn't the rich man just wait it out, keep his dignity, and wait till he is released, then warn his family?

Why even worry about his family at all, if it is temporary punishment? After all, if you commit a crime it is only fair you are punished right? So why worry about his family if it is just temporary?

Last question:
If the punishment was temporary for the rich man, then what does this verse mean here-
"26 And beside all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed: so that they which would pass from hence to you cannot; neither can they pass to us, that would come from thence."

Again, Aionios means as age-enduring. I can use that meaning in every verse where the word is rendered. Now as I stated before that same word is used in this verse:

Rom_16:25 Now to him that is of power to stablish you according to my gospel, and the preaching of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery, which was kept secret since the world began,

You see if we use the meanings as you provided then:

1-without beginning and end, that which always has been and always will be; (secret would always be a secret)
2-without beginning (the secret never had a beginning which makes no sense)
3-without end, never to cease, everlasting (again we would never know the secret)

Now you statement about why would the rich man have a gulf between them and that would be the fact that the risen Lazarus and Abraham are immortal and the rich man is not. That is the gulf. You see that I posted part of the parable of the unforgiving servant earlier. Those that do not repent now will have to PAY for their sins later TILL all is paid. Not forever.

So back to aionios, it means age-enduring. It doesn't reference an end point but a point at which something continues with respect to the age. So to say something is aionios means it continues beyond the age. In the Old Testament it uses the word olam for this which means horizon where the end of the horizon is concealed but we can see the point at which the continuation is.

 

[aiki]

Jesus will eventually save everyone. This is at the core of the Gospel.

Nope. See Matthew 7:13, 14; 21-23; 25:46; Luke 13:23-28; John 3:36.

4.) Who gets what He desires?

Are you saying God desires wickedness? Are you saying God desires perversion, and abominations, and evil? Are you saying God desires little children to die of disease, hunger and deprivation? No, He doesn't. Clearly, then, God does not get all that He desires. Just read your Bible and see!

9.) Can God fail to persuade?

Yes. Obviously. Every person who rejects His gift of salvation - and they are in the majority - He has failed to persuade.

10.) Does God have the power to save everyone?

Not if people freely choose whether or not to be saved. I believe they do.

 

[Deadworm]

Jeff: "No one has to duck, nor even read, nor even reply to the questions you refer to to
know the topic is anti-Scripture ...."

During the Great Awakening, a skeptic sat in a tree to hear evangelist George Whitefield preach. But soon he began to fall under conviction, so he put his fingers in his ears to prevent him from hearing Whitefield's Gospel message. But the Lord works in strange ways: some flies buzzed around his head and he felt the need to continually swat them away. The Holy Spirit used these flies to force him to hear the Gospel and he was gloriously saved.

Jeff, I am the fly that is trying to get you to hear the Word. Take your fingers from your spiritual ears and then read and respond to the OP's 10 questions. You are committing the most basic philosophical fallacy--begging the question. That is, you are assuming as true what the very biblical teaching that is in question and then using that as an excuse to avoid God's Word.

 

[Tree of Life]

Jesus will eventually save everyone. This is at the core of the Gospel.

Ask yourself this:

1.) Who creates Life?
2.) Who does everything with a purpose?
3.) Who never fails?
4.) Who gets what He desires?
5.) Who desires that none should be lost forever?
6.) Who desires that all should be saved?
7.) Who will is greater - man or God?
8.) Can God persuade?
9.) Can God fail to persuade?
10.) Does God have the power to save everyone?

You forgot one important question:

11.) What does the Bible say?

If you don't factor in (11) then you can definitely get to a universal salvation conclusion. But, factoring in (11), this conclusion is not possible.

 

[Hewillcome2040]

Nope. See Matthew 7:13, 14; 21-23; 25:46; Luke 13:23-28; John 3:36.



Are you saying God desires wickedness? Are you saying God desires perversion, and abominations, and evil? Are you saying God desires little children to die of disease, hunger and deprivation? No, He doesn't. Clearly, then, God does not get all that He desires. Just read your Bible and see!



Yes. Obviously. Every person who rejects His gift of salvation - and they are in the majority - He has failed to persuade.



Not if people freely choose whether or not to be saved. I believe they do.

Yes, I am saying that God desires that these evil things happen AT THIS TIME.

Isa_45:7 I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.


Rom 9:13 As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated.
Rom 9:14 What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? God forbid.
Rom 9:15 For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion.
Rom 9:16 So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy.
Rom 9:17 For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might shew my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth.
Rom 9:18 Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth.
Rom 9:19 Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will?
Rom 9:20 Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus?
Rom 9:21 Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?
Rom 9:22 What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:
Rom 9:23 And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory,

 

[Hewillcome2040]

You forgot one important question:

11.) What does the Bible say?

If you don't factor in (11) then you can definitely get to a universal salvation conclusion. But, factoring in (11), this conclusion is not possible.

Interesting is those are questions, not statements.

 

[SkyWriting]

Ok, so we have established that you do not believe God gives life and that you do not believe He finishes what He started. correct?

As I said, your questions are butter frosting built on a foundation of sand.

I do believe that God is the only source of life.
I don't hold God accountable for my view of finishing
or my view of starting anything. But regarding God's
Word on these topics, Genesis covers the beginnings
and Revelation covers the end. And I don't hold to ANY
particular understanding of Revelation other than the
general view that God has won all battles and Hell and
those in it will be eliminated.

Still, with God, there is no time frame for anything
becasue time is only a delay in justice, which should have
destroyed all of man instantly, for that is the wages of Sin.
But by Grace, we are given undeserved "time".

 

[Tree of Life]

Interesting is those are questions, not statements.

You seemed to suggest that if you ask all those questions then you can only conclude that universal salvation is true. Is this not what you're saying?

 

[Hewillcome2040]

As I said, your questions are butter frosting built on a foundation of sand.

I do believe that God is the only source of life.
I don't hold God accountable for my view of finishing
or my view of starting anything. But regarding God's
Word on these topics, Genesis covers the beginnings
and Revelation covers the end. And I don't hold to ANY
particular understanding of Revelation other than the
general view that God has won all battles and Hell and
those in it will be eliminated.

Still, with God, there is no time frame for anything
becasue time is only a delay in justice, which should have
destroyed all of man instantly, for that is the wages of Sin.
But by Grace, we are given undeserved "time".

So you do believe God gives Life and you do believe that He finishes what He started?

 

[Hewillcome2040]

You seemed to suggest that if you ask all those questions then you can only conclude that universal salvation is true. Is this not what you're saying?

I think each person needs to ask those questions and find out what the real answers are.

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

Those that do not repent now will have to PAY for their sins later TILL all is paid. Not forever.

OR
as Jesus says, those who trampled underfoot the GOSPEL / HIS BLOOD/
HAVE NO MORE any sacrifice for their sins (ever: "NO more", not some more , not later, no, NO MORE) ...
They cannot earn their way, nor pay their way, nor find any way to pay the debt they owe,
since the BLOOD OF JESUS is the ONLY ATONEMENT for sins,
and they have NO MORE sacrifice for theirs. They cannot , NO MORE, be atoned for, no, never.

As Jesus says.

 

[SkyWriting]

So you do believe God gives Life and you do believe that He finishes what He started?

I covered those topics. Universal Salvation - Did you know that this is at the core of the Gospel?

 

[aiki]

Yes, I am saying that God desires that these evil things happen AT THIS TIME.

Isa_45:7 I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.

So God is the Author of evil? Interesting. That would make Him an evil God which is flatly denied in the Bible:

1 John 1:5
5 This is the message which we have heard from Him and declare to you, that God is light and in Him is no darkness at all.

Also, Isaiah 45:7 is commonly translated as follows:

(NASB)
7 The One forming light and creating darkness, Causing well-being and creating calamity; I am the Lord who does all these.

(NKJV)
7 I form the light and create darkness, I make peace and create calamity; I, the Lord, do all these things.'

You are equivocating on the term "evil." Isaiah is not speaking here of moral evil which is clearly what I was referring to.

Rom 9:18 Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth.
Rom 9:19 Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will?

Are you saying God will take a man and harden him contrary to his inclination? Are you saying God forces people to wicked deeds? If so, how is God, then, not an evil God?

 

[SkyWriting]

I think each person needs to ask those questions and find out what the real answers are.

Feel free to do that for everyone.

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

You forgot one important question:

11.) What does the Bible say?

If you don't factor in (11) then you can definitely get to a universal salvation conclusion. But, factoring in (11), this conclusion is not possible.

Yes, but he doesn't want to rock the boat with truth.
Any and all Scripture that clearly shows his doctrine is evil, he rejects or twists or ignores,
as must be, since the doctrine being pushed is not of nor from Scripture, but twisting Scripture to try to support a false "good feeling" that leads men to sin more.(as if to okay sinfulness without repentance, a proliferately sinful life being "okay" without God's Word Judgment or Truth).

 

[SkyWriting]

You seemed to suggest that if you ask all those questions then you can only conclude that universal salvation is true. Is this not what you're saying?

Becasue everyone would reach the same conclusion if only they......would reach the same conclusion.

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

I am the fly

Sorry, no. You don't want to confess that.
Remember where the fly comes from, who is the lord of the flies.

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

Becasue everyone would reach the same conclusion if only they......would reach the same conclusion.

If they needed to.
IN ACTS, the ekklesia all believed JESUS instead of coming to their own conclusions.
the ekklesia today believe JESUS and follow Him, instead of sinning unrepentently.
So who are others listening to , since not Jesus, to come to other 'conclusions' instead of believing Jesus ?

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

As I said, your questions are butter frosting built on a foundation of sand.

Good illustration as they are appealing to men and not unto God.
They cannot get an audience with God or with Godly men, women and children,
so they try to appeal to the ungodly with ungodly doctrines that tickle someone's ears.
Is that what you mean ?

Or more like "Look , Jesus, at this wonderful temple made of beautiful stones"
that , of course, did not last ?

 

[SkyWriting]

If they needed to.
IN ACTS, the ekklesia all believed JESUS instead of coming to their own conclusions.
the ekklesia today believe JESUS and follow Him, instead of sinning unrepentently.
So who are others listening to , since not Jesus, to come to other 'conclusions' instead of believing Jesus ?

Hopefully all people have more faith in God than any interpretations of His Word
which scripture says is not that important.