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Universal Salvation - Did you know that this is at the core of the Gospel?

Discussion in 'Controversial Christian Theology' started by Hewillcome2040, Dec 25, 2017.

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  1. 1stcenturylady

    1stcenturylady Spirit-filled follower of Christ Supporter

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    Only those who have been given access to the tree of life will live forever.

    Revelation 22:
    14 Blessed are those who do His commandments, that they may have the right to the tree of life, and may enter through the gates into the city. 15 But outside are dogs and sorcerers and sexually immoral and murderers and idolaters, and whoever loves and practices a lie.
     
  2. 1stcenturylady

    1stcenturylady Spirit-filled follower of Christ Supporter

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    Actually, I believe his demons will be tormented forever as well. They were created with immortal spirits, whereas man was created with an immortal spirit, but when man sinned, he became mortal. That is why man needs to be born again. Our spirits need to go from mortal to immortal. The only way Satan would only be destroyed would be if when he sinned, he also became mortal. But even though the lake of fire burns forever, it also says that the "torment" will also go on forever.
     
  3. redleghunter

    redleghunter Thank You Jesus! Supporter

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    John 3: KJV

    16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

    17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.

    18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

    19 And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.

    20 For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved.

    21 But he that doeth truth cometh to the light, that his deeds may be made manifest, that they are wrought in God.


    Unfortunately Jesus even shows above there will be those who reject Him and are condemned for doing so.

    The Bible does not teach every one will enter the Kingdom of God.
     
  4. ClementofA

    ClementofA Well-Known Member Supporter

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    and the Devil, who is leading them astray, was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where are the beast and the false prophet, and they shall be tormented day and night-to the ages of the ages. (Rev.20:10, YLT)

    And the Adversary who is deceiving them was cast into the lake of fire and sulphur where the wild beast and where the false prophet are also. And they shall be tormented day and night for the eons of the eons. (Rev.20:10, Concordant Literal New Testament, 1983)

    ...and the Adversary that had been deceiving them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where [were] both the wild-beast and the false-prophet; and they shall be tormented day and night unto the ages of ages. (Rev.20:10, Rotherham Emphasized Bible, 1959

    American Standard Version footnote: *Gr. unto the ages of the ages.
    Revised Version, 1881 footnote: *Gr. unto the ages of the ages.

    Does ages of the ages have an end? Christ's reign is "to the ages of the ages":

    And the seventh messenger did sound, and there came great voices in the heaven, saying, 'The kingdoms of the world did become those of our Lord and of His Christ, and he shall reign to the ages of the ages!' (Rev.11:15, YLT)

    But His reign is "until" He gives up the Kingdom to the Father:

    24 Then the end will come, when He hands over the kingdom to God the Father after He has destroyed all dominion, authority, and power. 25 For He must reign until He has put all His enemies under His feet. (1 Corinthians 15)

    So Christ's reign "to the ages of the ages" is not "forever and ever". Therefore the phrase "to the ages of the ages" can be understood of a limited time period that comes to an end. So those in the lake of fire are not punished there "for ever and ever" (Rev.20:10).

    Also, "forever and ever" is nonsense. No time can be added to "forever".

    When Christ's reign ends (1 Cor.15 above), this will lead to God being "All in all" (v.28). IOW everyone will be saved, as all will be "in Christ" (v.22).

    Rev.21:5 He who was seated on the throne said, “I am making all new!”

    2 Cor.5:17 Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all is become new.

    Rev.5:13 And every creature which is in heaven, and on the earth, and under the earth, and such as are in the sea, and all that are in them, heard I saying, Blessing, and honour, and glory, and power, be unto him that sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb for ever and ever.

    Rev.15:4 Who shall not fear thee, O Lord, and glorify thy name? for thou only art holy: for all nations shall come and worship before thee; for thy judgments are made manifest.

    This sounds like just payback, not endless annihilation or tortures:

    Rev.18:6 Reward her even as she rewarded you, and double unto her double according to her works: in the cup which she hath filled fill to her double.

    Rev.21:5 He who was seated on the throne said, “I am making all new!”

    This includes everyone in the universe, including the dead and demons:

    Rev.5:13 And every creature which is in heaven, and on the earth, and under the earth, and such as are in the sea, and all that are in them, heard I saying, Blessing, and honour,
    and glory, and power, be unto him that sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb for ever and ever.

    John speaks of "every creature" & to emphasize this again he repeats "and all that are in them":

    Rev.5:13 And every creature which is in heaven, and on the earth, and under the earth, and such as are in the sea, and all that are in them, heard I saying, Blessing, and honour,
    and glory, and power, be unto him that sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb for ever and ever.

    This worship (v.13) uses the same worshipful words as the redeemed of vs 9-10 use in v.12:

    12 Saying with a loud voice, Worthy is the Lamb that was slain to receive power, and riches, and wisdom, and strength, and honour, and glory, and blessing.

    All this being in the context of salvation - "the Lamb that was slain" (v.12 & 13).
     
  5. ClementofA

    ClementofA Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Satan will be saved:

    Colossians 1:15-20
    15 He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation. 16 For by Him all things were created that are in heaven and that are on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or principalities or powers. All things were created through Him and for Him.

    17 And He is before all things, and in Him all things consist. 18 And He is the head of the body, the church, who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead, that in all things He may have the pre-eminence.

    19 For it pleased the Father that in Him all the fullness should dwell, 20 and by Him to reconcile all things to Himself, by Him, whether things on earth or things in heaven, having made peace through the blood of His cross.


    John speaks of "every creature" & to emphasize this again he repeats "and all that are in them":

    Rev.5:13 And every creature which is in heaven, and on the earth, and under the earth, and such as are in the sea, and all that are in them, heard I saying, Blessing, and honour,
    and glory, and power, be unto him that sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb for ever and ever.

    This worship (v.13) uses the same worshipful words as the redeemed of vs 9-10 use in v.12:

    12 Saying with a loud voice, Worthy is the Lamb that was slain to receive power, and riches, and wisdom, and strength, and honour, and glory, and blessing.

    All this being in the context of salvation - "the Lamb that was slain" (v.12 & 13).
     
  6. ClementofA

    ClementofA Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Perish for how long & in what way? The same Greek word for "perish" is used of the prodigal son who was "lost" but later found.

    16 For thus God loves the world, so that He gives His only-begotten Son, that everyone who is believing in Him should not be perishing, but may be having life eonian. (CLV)
    16 for God did so love the world, that His Son—the only begotten—He gave, that every one who is believing in him may not perish, but may have life age-during. (YLT)
    16 For God, so loved, the world, that, his Only Begotten Son, he gave,—that, whosoever believeth on him, might not perish, but have life age-abiding. (Ro)
    16 Thus for loved the God the world, so that the son of himself the only-begotten he gave, that every one who believing into him, not may be destroyed, but may have life age-lasting. (Diaglott)

    Not everyone will get EONIAN life, which pro Endless Hell club, anti universalist, versions mistranslate as "eternal life". Those who believe before they die get EONIAN life. They will live & reign with Christ for the 1000 years of the millennial EON (Rev.20). Unbelievers will not. They get saved later since God becomes "all in ALL" (1 Cor.15:22-28). For Jesus is the Lamb of God Who takes away the sin of the world (Jn.1:29), "the Saviour of the world" (John 4:42), Who will draw all to Himself (John 12:32).

    John 3:16 says unbelievers "perish", not that they perish endlessly. If Jesus had wanted to say "perish endlessly" there was a Greek word for "endless" He could have used (aperantos, 1 Tim.1:4). He could have also used the words "no end" (Lk.1:33) of perishing. Clearly endless punishment is not the teaching of the Word of God.

    "But there are those who find this an intolerable state of affairs, sometimes because of an earnest if misguided devotion to what they believe Scripture or tradition demands, sometimes because the idea of the eternal torment of the derelict appeals to some unpleasantly obvious emotional pathologies on their parts." Saint Origen | David Bentley Hart

    >Believers and Supporters of Christian Universalism

    1 Jn.2:27 But the anointing which ye have received of him abideth in you, and ye need not that any man teach you: but as the same anointing teacheth you of all things, and is truth, and is no lie, and even as it hath taught you, ye shall abide in him.

    If God doesn't save all, is it because He can't or doesn't want to?
    "...it doesn't say what most evangelizers of hopelessness want it to say in that regard either."
    "It is false, he maintained, to translate that phrase as "everlasting punishment," introducing into the New Testament the concept found in the Islamic Quran that God is going to torture the wicked forever."
    "...non-Christians are punished forever for not recieving grace, which doesn't seem very graceful to me.


    Have you been decieved by your Bible translation?

    For the Lord will NOT cast off FOR EVER:

    Augustine's ignorance & error re Matthew 25:46

    Church Fathers & Universalism since Early Church times

    Is there salvation after death?
     
  7. ClementofA

    ClementofA Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Gordon,

    I see you list yourself as "Anglican, yet have "Franciscan tssf" under your name. Is there a relation between the two?
     
    Last edited: Dec 28, 2017
  8. gordonhooker

    gordonhooker Franciscan tssf Supporter

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    Yes the Society of St Francis the SSF of which the tssf third order are Anglican Franciscan orders.
     
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  9. ClementofA

    ClementofA Well-Known Member Supporter

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    I didn't realize there are non RC Franciscans.

    Someone i know has a couple questions for you:


    • Are these Roman Catholic orders? (i.e. the ones you referred to earlier as universalists)

    • And if so, don't you really mean - they are hopeful universalists.
    BTW i've heard many of the RC Franciscans are universalists.
     
  10. TerryWoodenpic

    TerryWoodenpic Active Member

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    There are a surprising number of Christians who believe in Universal salvation in some form or another. A fact, that I for one welcome.
    My thoughts and reading on the matter suggest salvation (returning to God) does not occur in this life but when we Die.
    Such final repentance, and forgiveness by God can not occur till after death, for up to that time we remain sinners.
    In the next life everyone can come to know God, and repent their past sins, for their souls to return to God.
    It is perhaps possible, but inconceivable, that any such soul would refuse God's offer of salvation.

    It is true that the Bible can be used to "Prove" anything you wish it to, and earlier posts in this thread have tried just that. But there comes a point when faith and reason have to play their part. and that falls heavily in support of Universal salvation.

    Salvation is not a reward that can be earned or lost.
    It is a Gift.

    God loves us all.
    All souls are of God, and come from God. they are perfect.
    God wishes all should to return to him.
    I can not conceive that God could fail in this.

    However some are so consumed by sin. that when they are purified by repentance and forgiveness,
    That little, if anything, remains of their "self", when their soul becomes one with God again.
    It is like the purification of Gold by fire, leaving only perfection.
    the dross of self and sin is purged.
     
  11. jerry kelso

    jerry kelso Food For Thought

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    hewillcome2040,

    1. Hell was prepared for the devil and his angels not Satan alone.
    The reason men will go to hell is because they are children of the devil.

    2. Luke 16 shows Lazarus, the rich man was already in some torment. This is a true story not a parable because Abraham was talking with the poor beggar.
    The rich man couldn't get out of hell and so he thought if he could warn his unsaved brothers so they would not suffer the same torment or if someone arose from the dead they would repent.
    Abraham said, if they wouldn't listen to Moses and the prophets they wouldn't believe one who arose from the dead.
    This shows there will be people who will never believe the gospel.
    The core of salvation is the death, burial, and resurrection 1 Corinthians 15:1-4. Some will believe and some will not believe.

    3. God will not reconcile a sinner to being a sinner if he rejects him.
    The overcomer will inherit all things not the fearful, abominable sinners etc. John recorded this after the New Heaven and New Earth will have been created and God comes down to tabernacle with men Revelation 21. Jerry kelso
     
  12. jerry kelso

    jerry kelso Food For Thought

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    terrywoodenpic,

    1. 1 Corinthians 3 is not about purification from sin for the soul is preserved from fire.
    The whole passage is about how Christians built on the foundation of the church.
    bad works of Christians will burn up such as hay, wood, and stubble and good works will remain such as gold, silver, and precious stones.

    2. It is not true that we are sinners our whole lives while being a committed Christian.
    A person cannot serve God and the devil at the same time.

    3. The true story of Lazarus and the rich man in Luke showed that if the brothers of the rich man didn't listen to Moses and the law they wouldn't believe if one rose from the dead.

    4. God is love and love is found in judgement for the wicked who will never repent for he judges fairly in Holiness.
    Life now is our probationary period to become Kings, Priests, and Rulers in the kingdom to come. This includes sinners chance to become saved before death.
    There is no such thing as purification to be saved after death as I have already shown in 1 Corinthians 3:1-16. Jerry kelso
     
  13. yeshuaslavejeff

    yeshuaslavejeff simple truth, martyr, disciple of Yahshua

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    I don't know of anyone who reads and believes the Bible who believes this.

    If you do (read the Bible and get these ideas from the Bible) , you're the first I've heard it from.

    The universalists might read the Bible, but of course you know the rest... or can know it if you read the rest of the story. (not what the universalists say; but what the Bible says)
     
  14. Hewillcome2040

    Hewillcome2040 Member

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    Your truth is not my Truth. I have different beliefs on the word. In fact aionios is used as the replacement rendering for olam in the Greek Septuagint. I do word studies and that is the authority for me. Both means age-enduring.
     
  15. Hewillcome2040

    Hewillcome2040 Member

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    I have little time and a lot of people replying so you will have to give me a point you wish to discuss and keep it concise.
     
  16. 1stcenturylady

    1stcenturylady Spirit-filled follower of Christ Supporter

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    Satan will be saved? You quote scriptures that say the opposite. You are very confusing in your writing and quoting. I don't know what you believe. So are you a Universalist? If so, then I understand where you are coming from. If not, how can you say Satan will be saved?
     
  17. Hewillcome2040

    Hewillcome2040 Member

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    WHY were they given access to the Tree of Life?
     
  18. Hewillcome2040

    Hewillcome2040 Member

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    So let me ask you, since Satan and demons are spirit, how do they get tormented?
     
  19. Hewillcome2040

    Hewillcome2040 Member

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    So do you believe that God needs our permission to be saved? If not, then why is any of it fall upon us to be saved?
     
  20. 1stcenturylady

    1stcenturylady Spirit-filled follower of Christ Supporter

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    They will live forever in their sinless state.
     
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