Universal Salvation - Did you know that this is at the core of the Gospel?

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Hewillcome2040

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You are half right. The Holy Spirit does destroy sin in us. We are dead to sin. And that is while we still live, it doesn't begin after we are dead.

Then you missed the teaching of the Old Covenant. You see the Old Testament was a type of what is happening now. You do realize that all the gentiles were grafted in to Israel. Therefore, EVERYONE will comprise Israel. So what happened in the Old Testament was that the Levites had to be CHOSEN in order to atone for the sins of the rest of the congregation. That is what is happening now. We have a chosen few in this dispensation that will reign with Christ as Kings AND PRIESTS (New Covenant Levites) who will then atone for the sins of the rest of the Congregation of Israel (all mankind). This happens after the second coming of Christ. You see all the spring feast days were a type of the first coming of Christ whereas all the fall feast days shows us what is happening in the second coming starting with the Feast of Trumpets.
 
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OzSpen

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Why do those lexicons ignore what early church father universalists, who were native Greek speakers & Greek scholars, say about the word aionios? So they can sell more books? Why cherry pick only those two amongst all the Greek scholars that could have been chosen? ECT bias?

Here's some other sources:

Eternity in the Bible by Gerry Beauchemin – Hope Beyond Hell

The eons of the Bible With Concordance, God’s purpose of the eons.
The Eons
EONS AND WORLDS

forever and ever: a poor translation:

Chapter Five
Why Can't Aionas Ton Aionon Mean Eternity?
Bible Translations That Do Not Teach Eternal Torment

#4 – What Biblical Scholars Say about the Word “Aionios”

Aeon - Wikipedia
AIÓN -- AIÓNIOS
The Greek Words "aion" and "aionios," do these words mean "eternal" or "everlasting"?

These lexicons go back way before the Early Church Fathers. Sounds like you are backing only those who support universalism.

As for the ECF, here are examples of those who supported particularism and not universalism:

Clement of Rome

‘Let us fix our thoughts on the Blood of Christ; and reflect how precious that Blood is in God’s eyes, inasmuch as its outpouring for our salvation has opened the race of repentance to all mankind. 25-6

38 Again, God says to Him, Sit down at my right hand, until I make your enemies a cushion for your feet. Who are these enemies? Why, wicked persons who set themselves against His will. 38

Ignatius
‘Regarding the rest of mankind, you should pray for them unceasingly, for we can always hope that repentance may enable them to find their way to God’. 64

’…..how much more when a man’s subversive doctrines defile the God-given Faith for which Jesus Christ was crucified. Such a wretch in his uncleanness is bound for the unquenchable fire, and so is anyone else who gives him a hearing.’ 65

‘….the Cross which so greatly offends the unbelievers, but is salvation and eternal life to us’ 65-6

‘To profess any other name than that is to be lost to God….’72

‘Flee for your very life from these men; they are poisonous growths with a deadly fruit, and one taste of it is speedily fatal.’ 81

‘His passion was no unreal illusion, as some skeptics aver who are all unreality themselves. The fate of those wretches will match their unbelief, for one day they will similarly become phantoms without substance themselves.’101

‘For let nobody be under any delusion; there is judgment in store even for the hosts of heaven, the very angels in glory, the visible and invisible powers themselves, if they have no faith in the blood of Christ’.102

Polycarp
‘All things in heaven and earth have been made subject to Him; everything that breathes mays Him homage; He comes to judge the living and the dead, and God will require His blood at the hands of any who refuse him allegiance’ 119

The Martydom of Polycarp
‘The other said again, “If you do not recant, I will have your burnt to death, since you think so lightly of wild beasts”. Polycarp rejoined, “The fire you threaten me with cannot go on burning for very long; after a while it goes out. But what you are unaware of are the flames of future judgment and everlasting torment which are in store for the ungodly. Why do you go on wasting time? Bring out whatever you have a mind to” ’.128

Barnabas
‘For when the Lord judges the world there is going to be no partiality; everyone will be recompensed in proportion to what he has done. If he is a good man, his righteousness will make the way smooth before him; but if he is a bad man, the wages of his wickedness will be waiting to confront him.’163

‘For the man who does this, there will be glory in the kingdom of God; but one who prefers the other Way will perish together with his works. 181-2

The Didache
‘After that, all humankind will come up for their fiery trial; multitudes of them will stumble and perish, but such as remain steadfast in the faith will be saved by the Curse’ 198

[These extracts are from Early Christian Writings, trans. Maxwell Staniforth, revised and provided with Introductions and new editorial material by Andrew Louth. (Penguin Books, 1987)] (source)​

Oz
 
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OzSpen

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I use word studies myself. I only mentioned Lennep because his understanding is how I perceive it. My word studies are the authority on this for me. If I listened to scholars they would tell me almah means young woman when I know it means virgin.

You provided not one example of 'scholars' supporting almah = young woman rather than virgin - not one. Getting onto 'almah' when you are writing about universalism, is a red herring.

Oz
 
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Hewillcome2040

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You provided not one example of 'scholars' supporting almah = young woman rather than virgin - not one. Getting onto 'almah' when you are writing about universalism, is a red herring.

Oz

The almah debate is off topic for this thread. I don't want to derail this thread since I started it. I don't put much stock in scholars as previous readers to my posts have already found out.
 
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iwbswiaihl2

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No, they will be destroyed in the lake of fire. Think of that as the dross. What is being destroyed in the Lake of Fire is the same things that Holy Spirit destroyed in believers now. Which means it destroys the evil in you.
You only left out one thing that is important, Jesus said it would be forever! What does forever mean? Forever.
 
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iwbswiaihl2

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Then you missed the teaching of the Old Covenant. You see the Old Testament was a type of what is happening now. You do realize that all the gentiles were grafted in to Israel. Therefore, EVERYONE will comprise Israel. So what happened in the Old Testament was that the Levites had to be CHOSEN in order to atone for the sins of the rest of the congregation. That is what is happening now. We have a chosen few in this dispensation that will reign with Christ as Kings AND PRIESTS (New Covenant Levites) who will then atone for the sins of the rest of the Congregation of Israel (all mankind). This happens after the second coming of Christ. You see all the spring feast days were a type of the first coming of Christ whereas all the fall feast days shows us what is happening in the second coming starting with the Feast of Trumpets.

Simply post your scripture or admit it is just your wishful thinking. That is never taught in the scriptures, where did you even think of something so far from scripture.:tutu::doh:
 
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Hewillcome2040

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Simply post your scripture or admit it is just your wishful thinking. That is never taught in the scriptures, where did you even think of something so far from scripture.:tutu::doh:

It may be far from you for there is no scripture that is going to show you this. There is also no scripture telling you why the two swords were enough but Jesus knew that those with the Spirit would know.
 
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Hewillcome2040

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I don't think many Eternal Torment believers realize that most universalists were previously believers in Eternal Torment also. In my case I moved from eternal torment to annihilationism unto universal salvation. I have made many of the same arguments that Eternal Torment believers have made.
 
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Der Alte

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Jesus will eventually save everyone. This is at the core of the Gospel.
Ask yourself this:
1.) Who creates Life?
2.) Who does everything with a purpose?
3.) Who never fails?
4.) Who gets what He desires?
5.) Who desires that none should be lost forever?
6.) Who desires that all should be saved?
7.) Who will is greater - man or God?
8.) Can God persuade?
9.) Can God fail to persuade?
10.) Does God have the power to save everyone?
You think you have concocted the perfect argument against "eternal punishment." Some of these "questions" are loaded much like the old "Have you stopped beating your wife?" Let me answer this with scripture. Note this passage from Jeremiah. God said “
I have caused to cleave” That word is הדבקתי/ha’dabaq’thi. It is in the perfect or completed sense. God’s will, expressly stated, for the whole house of Israel and Judah, for all of Israel and all of Judah to cling to God as a belt clings to a man’s waist. It was done, finished, completed, in God’s sight, and, according to some arguments presented, nothing man can do will cause God’s will to not be done. But they, Israel and Judah, would not hear and obey, their will, vs. God’s will, So God destroyed them, vs. 14.
This passage very much speaks to the issue of God’s sovereign will, and man’s free will and agency. God stated very clearly what His will was, in terms that cannot be misunderstood. But, because the Israelites would not hear, and obey, God destroyed them, instead of them being unto God, “for a people, and for a name, and for a praise, and for a glory, vs. 10.”

Jer 13:1 Thus saith the LORD unto me, Go and get thee a linen girdle, and put it upon thy loins, and put it not in water.
2 So I got a girdle according to the word of the LORD, and put it on my loins.
3 And the word of the LORD came unto me the second time, saying,
4 Take the girdle that thou hast got, which is upon thy loins, and arise, go to Euphrates, and hide it there in a hole of the rock.
5 So I went, and hid it by Euphrates, as the LORD commanded me.
6 And it came to pass after many days, that the LORD said unto me, Arise, go to Euphrates, and take the girdle from thence, which I commanded thee to hide there.
7 Then I went to Euphrates, and digged, and took the girdle from the place where I had hid it: and, behold, the girdle was marred, it was profitable for nothing.
8 Then the word of the LORD came unto me, saying,
9 Thus saith the LORD, After this manner will I mar the pride of Judah, and the great pride of Jerusalem.
10 This evil people, which refuse to hear my words, which walk in the imagination of their heart, and walk after other gods, to serve them, and to worship them, shall even be as this girdle, which is good for nothing.
11 For as the girdle cleaveth to the loins of a man, so have I caused to cleave [הדבקתי/ha’dabaq’thi] unto me the whole house of Israel and the whole house of Judah, saith the LORD; that they might be unto me for a people, and for a name, and for a praise, and for a glory: but they would not hear.
[size=-1]· · ·

14 And I will dash them one against another, even the fathers and the sons together, saith the LORD: I will not pity, nor spare, nor have mercy, but destroy them.
Note, verse 14, God said He will NOT have pity, will NOT spare, and will NOT have mercy but destroy them.
Your question 4.) Who gets what He desires? Did God get what He desired in this passage?
#6.) Who desires that all should be saved? Did God desire that all Isareal and Judah be saved?
#7.) Who will is greater - man or God? Why did God's superior will not get what He desired?
#8.) Can God persuade? Was God able to persuade Israel and Judah? Why wasn't all of Israel and Judah persuaded in this passage?
#9.) Can God fail to persuade? Did HGod fail to persuade all of Israel and Judah?

#10.) Does God have the power to save everyone? Did God have the power to save all of Israel and Judah?[/SIZE]
 
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Rajni

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Thank you very much for pointing that out - I was obviously all thumbs when I tried to set the rating to 'Winner' for the OP. I have since fixed it and apologised to the person who posted the OP. :)
Awesome; I changed the screenshot in my post to reflect the change as well.
Hopefully @aiki and @iwbswiaihl will rethink their "funny" rating.

-
 
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1stcenturylady

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Then you missed the teaching of the Old Covenant. You see the Old Testament was a type of what is happening now. You do realize that all the gentiles were grafted in to Israel. Therefore, EVERYONE will comprise Israel. So what happened in the Old Testament was that the Levites had to be CHOSEN in order to atone for the sins of the rest of the congregation. That is what is happening now. We have a chosen few in this dispensation that will reign with Christ as Kings AND PRIESTS (New Covenant Levites) who will then atone for the sins of the rest of the Congregation of Israel (all mankind). This happens after the second coming of Christ. You see all the spring feast days were a type of the first coming of Christ whereas all the fall feast days shows us what is happening in the second coming starting with the Feast of Trumpets.

It is true that the gospel went to the Gentiles, officially, starting with Cornelius, but they still must choose. They all won't be saved, anymore than all the Jews were. During the last 7 years for the Jews (in the future) the last Gentile to be saved, will be saved, and then God will place on the remaining a strong delusion to take the mark of the beast and be damned. At that point the partial blindness God placed on the NATION of Israel will be lifted, and all of those Jews will be saved.

I also believe the Feast of Trumpets will be fulfilled at the second coming.
 
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Hewillcome2040

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It is true that the gospel went to the Gentiles, officially, starting with Cornelius, but they still must choose. They all won't be saved, anymore than all the Jews were. During the last 7 years for the Jews (in the future) the last Gentile to be saved, will be saved, and then God will place on the remaining a strong delusion to take the mark of the beast and be damned. At that point the partial blindness God placed on the NATION of Israel will be lifted, and all of those Jews will be saved.

I also believe the Feast of Trumpets will be fulfilled at the second coming.

Let's go a different route. Tell me why all men will not be saved?
 
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ClementofA

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That is not what the Bible teaches and is not what 95% of Christian preachers preach.

M-Bob


How do you know this? Did you take a poll of every Christian in the entire world? If so, please post the exact numbers who voted for each of the three positions, annihilation, universalism and endless torments. With documented proof.

Also could you tell how many had objectively & honestly studied all 3 positions? From what we see in this forum most don't even understand the universalist position & many others don't appear to have an open mind.

Have you been decieved by your Bible translation?

For the Lord will NOT cast off FOR EVER:

Augustine's ignorance & error re Matthew 25:46

Church Fathers & Universalism since Early Church times

Is there salvation after death?
 
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ClementofA

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Let's look at those last days in Revelation. How do you explain what happens to those thrown into the lake of fire? It's not a tanning bed.


Revelation 19:20
Then the beast was captured, and with him the false prophet who worked signs in his presence, by which he deceived those who received the mark of the beast and those who worshiped his image. These two were cast alive into the lake of fire burning with brimstone.

Revelation 20:10
The devil, who deceived them, was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone where the beast and the false prophet are. And they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.

Revelation 20:14
Then Death and Hades were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.

Revelation 20:15
And anyone not found written in the Book of Life was cast into the lake of fire.


There is the description starting in Revelation 20:10.
The devil, who deceived them, was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone where the beast and the false prophet are. And they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.

and the Devil, who is leading them astray, was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where are the beast and the false prophet, and they shall be tormented day and night-to the ages of the ages. (Rev.20:10, YLT)

And the Adversary who is deceiving them was cast into the lake of fire and sulphur where the wild beast and where the false prophet are also. And they shall be tormented day and night for the eons of the eons. (Rev.20:10, Concordant Literal New Testament, 1983)

...and the Adversary that had been deceiving them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where [were] both the wild-beast and the false-prophet; and they shall be tormented day and night unto the ages of ages. (Rev.20:10, Rotherham Emphasized Bible, 1959

American Standard Version footnote: *Gr. unto the ages of the ages.
Revised Version, 1881 footnote: *Gr. unto the ages of the ages.

Does ages of the ages have an end? Christ's reign is "to the ages of the ages":

And the seventh messenger did sound, and there came great voices in the heaven, saying, 'The kingdoms of the world did become those of our Lord and of His Christ, and he shall reign to the ages of the ages!' (Rev.11:15, YLT)

But His reign is "until" He gives up the Kingdom to the Father:

24 Then the end will come, when He hands over the kingdom to God the Father after He has destroyed all dominion, authority, and power. 25 For He must reign until He has put all His enemies under His feet. (1 Corinthians 15)

So Christ's reign "to the ages of the ages" is not "forever and ever". Therefore the phrase "to the ages of the ages" can be understood of a limited time period that comes to an end. So those in the lake of fire are not punished there "for ever and ever" (Rev.20:10).

Also, "forever and ever" is nonsense. No time can be added to "forever".

When Christ's reign ends (1 Cor.15 above), this will lead to God being "All in all" (v.28). IOW everyone will be saved, as all will be "in Christ" (v.22).

Rev.21:5 He who was seated on the throne said, “I am making all new!”

2 Cor.5:17 Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all is become new.

Chapter Five

Why Can't Aionas Ton Aionon Mean Eternity?

And then there are the further things shown in Revelation 20:12-15.
And I saw the dead, small and great, standing before God, and books were opened. And another book was opened, which is the Book of Life. And the dead were judged according to their works, by the things which were written in the books. The sea gave up the dead who were in it, and Death and Hades delivered up the dead who were in them. And they were judged, each one according to his works. Then Death and Hades were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. And anyone not found written in the Book of Life was cast into the lake of fire.

All will suffer with the one called the beast in Revelation, and the false prophet, this will be for day and night forever and ever. Such duration corresponds with the promise of everlasting life to the redeemed in the bliss with Yahweh and with Christ prepared for them.

Compare:

Rev.5:13 And every creature which is in heaven, and on the earth, and under the earth, and such as are in the sea, and all that are in them, heard I saying, Blessing, and honour, and glory, and power, be unto him that sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb for ever and ever.

Rev.15:4 Who shall not fear thee, O Lord, and glorify thy name? for thou only art holy: for all nations shall come and worship before thee; for thy judgments are made manifest.

This sounds like just payback, not endless annihilation or tortures:

Rev.18:6 Reward her even as she rewarded you, and double unto her double according to her works: in the cup which she hath filled fill to her double.

Rev.21:5 He who was seated on the throne said, “I am making all new!”

This includes everyone in the universe, including the dead and demons:

Rev.5:13 And every creature which is in heaven, and on the earth, and under the earth, and such as are in the sea, and all that are in them, heard I saying, Blessing, and honour,
and glory, and power, be unto him that sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb for ever and ever.

John speaks of "every creature" & to emphasize this again he repeats "and all that are in them":

Rev.5:13 And every creature which is in heaven, and on the earth, and under the earth, and such as are in the sea, and all that are in them, heard I saying, Blessing, and honour,
and glory, and power, be unto him that sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb for ever and ever.

This worship (v.13) uses the same worshipful words as the redeemed of vs 9-10 use in v.12:

12 Saying with a loud voice, Worthy is the Lamb that was slain to receive power, and riches, and wisdom, and strength, and honour, and glory, and blessing.

All this being in the context of salvation - "the Lamb that was slain" (v.12 & 13).

https://www.tentmaker.org/books/hope_beyond_hell.pdf

1 Jn.2:27 But the anointing which ye have received of him abideth in you, and ye need not that any man teach you: but as the same anointing teacheth you of all things, and is truth, and is no lie, and even as it hath taught you, ye shall abide in him.

"...it doesn't say what most evangelizers of hopelessness want it to say in that regard either."

"It is false, he maintained, to translate that phrase as "everlasting punishment," introducing into the New Testament the concept found in the Islamic Quran that God is going to torture the wicked forever."

http://www.tentmaker.org/ScholarsCorner.html
 
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ClementofA

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These lexicons go back way before the Early Church Fathers.

My point was they ignore the uses of words by the ECF, not how far they go back. Hence their bias.

As for your ECF quotes, out of context, mistranslated & misunderstood, Scripture trumps them all. And you left out all the ECF universalists.

Have you been decieved by your Bible translation?

For the Lord will NOT cast off FOR EVER:

Augustine's ignorance & error re Matthew 25:46

Church Fathers & Universalism since Early Church times

Is there salvation after death?
 
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Hewillcome2040

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I just want to clarify something I said previously in this thread. I don't believe Satan is eliminated. Do I believe He gets destroyed, yes, but also he will remain. He is the only one that will remain in torment forever. If you truly know who the Devil is this would make complete sense.
 
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Deadworm

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Let's get the truth about the Hebrew olam and the Greek aionios straight. Olam means "for a long time," though it is at times translated "eternal." Aionios means "lifelong" or }permanent," though it is often translated "eternal." On this Kittel's many examples of aionios in the massive multi-volume "Theological Dictionary of the New Testament" are decisive and definite. End of story.

Now let's move on and consider Jesus' preferred use of Gehenna for "Hell." Ancient rabbinic usage views Gehenna as a temporary realm of postmortem punishment from which release is possible through debt payment (Matthew 18:34; 5:25-26; Luke 12:57-59). That fact brings Jesus in line with Paul and the universalist church Fathers.

Notice carefully that Jeff has not directly addressed my explanation of any of the universalist texts I've discussed!
 
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jerry kelso

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Pick anyone of these items and let me know which you want me to address first. If I respond to all of it then it will make no sense to waste that much time if you can't get past one point.

hewillcome2040,

1. I have more than one point so I am not stuck on one point.

2. To be honest you're to do a rebuttal on all the points with scriptural context.
If you just want to do a few that will be fine. Jerry kelso
 
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