Universal Salvation - Did you know that this is at the core of the Gospel?

[OzSpen]

Yes I believe it is and the concept of restorative justice rather than retributive justice that some of Christian brothers and sisters tend to believe, if you cannot get past the dualistic thinking of shame and punishment you just don't get it.

Gordon,

If we can't get past what Jesus stated of Gehenna being a place of punishment forever, where the fire is unquenchable - it does not go out - then we are missing an essential portion of biblical exposition (See Mark 9:43-38).

Oz

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

Gordon,

If we can't get past what Jesus stated of Gehenna being a place of punishment forever, where the fire is unquenchable - it does not go out - then we are missing an essential portion of biblical exposition (See Mark 9:43-38).

Oz

With the sources they have listed in previous posts just today,
it is no wonder they don't go by what Jesus stated,
but rather by what men stated (in error , of course, opposed to Jesus).

The reasons are different sometimes, why they believe men instead of Jesus,
but as YHWH Says,
everyone who trusts men/ flesh YHWH Himself curses. (even believers)

 

[mkgal1]

If we can't get past what Jesus stated of Gehenna being a place of punishment forever, where the fire is unquenchable - it does not go out - then we are missing an essential portion of biblical exposition (See Mark 9:43-38)

"God is a consuming fire"~Hebrews 12:29

....and we see in several passages that "fire" is representative as "God's presence":


"The angel of the LORD appeared to him in a blazing fire from the midst of a bush; and he looked, and behold, the bush was burning with fire, yet the bush was not consumed".~Exodus 3:2:



"And there appeared to them tongues as of fire distributing themselves, and they rested on each one of them".~Acts 2:3-4


"God is love"~1 John

That shouldn't be overlooked.

But when Gehenna is mentioned in Mark....that's a different fire.

What a lot of people are attributing to "God's ways" are actually more like what God specifically said He is against and it never even came to His mind to ask for (and I believe this happened in Gehenna--the place outside of Jerusalem :

"Because they have forsaken me, and have estranged this place, and have burned incense in it unto other gods, whom neither they nor their fathers have known, nor the kings of Judah, and have filled this place with the blood of innocents;

5 They have built also the high places of Baal, to burn their sons with fire for burnt offerings unto Baal, which I commanded not, nor spake it, neither came it into my mind"~Jeremiah 19:4-5

From Ray Vanderlaan--------->Jerusalem's Hinnom Valley/Gehenna marked the western and southern edges of Jerusalem, beginning along the Western Hill and ending where the Tyropean and Kidron Valleys meet. In the Old Testament, it was often the site where people of Judah sacrificed their children to Baal (2 Kings 23:20; 2 Chron. 28:3,4; Jer. 7:31; 19:5, 6; 32:35).

King Manasseh of Judah added to the negative reputation of the Hinnom Valley by sacrificing some of his own sons in Baal worship there (2 Chron. 33:6). He also practiced sorcery and witchcraft in defiance of God's law. King Josiah, Manasseh's grandson, later destroyed many of these pagan structures and practices. But by that time, Israel was so involved in paganism that God's judgment soon fell upon the people.

Jerusalem's Hinnom Valley also became the perpetual burning-garbage dump and city sewer. Residents sometimes called it the "valley of the sewer" or "the valley of the pagans."

 

[gordonhooker]

Gordon,

If we can't get past what Jesus stated of Gehenna being a place of punishment forever, where the fire is unquenchable - it does not go out - then we are missing an essential portion of biblical exposition (See Mark 9:43-38).

Oz

I am quite happy to leave that with you...

 

[mkgal1]

From the Harvard Herald Journal (regarding Gehenna):

https://harvestherald.wordpress.com/2010/04/18/how-a-valley-in-jerusalem-got-turned-into-hell/~
We all know what the Bible teaches about hell. Or Do we?

Most Christians believe that hell is the place where the unsaved will be tormented in flames for all eternity. They firmly believe that this teaching comes straight from the Bible and that the greatest teacher on this subject is Jesus himself. After all, it was Jesus who said:

“But I say unto you, That whosoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment: and whosoever shall say to his brother, Raca, shall be in danger of the council: but whosoever shall say, Thou fool, shall be in danger of hell fire. ” (Matthew 5:22, KJV)

But what exactly is this ‘hell’ Jesus spoke of? Are you sure you know?

The Greek word which has here been translated ‘hell’ is gehenna. But when I study this Greek word, this is what I find:

1) The word literally means ‘The Valley of the Sons of Hinnom“. This is a literal place in Jerusalem referenced many times in the Old Testament – you can go visit it today if you’d like.

A red flag immediately goes up. How did the name of a valley in Jerusalem which exists to this day get translated into an English word which stands for a fiery place of eternal punishment in some other place or dimension. I don’t get it, so I keep studying and find out that:

2) According to the Old Testament evil Jewish Kings made this valley a place for idolatry and sacrificed children there to false gods. Later, king Josiah abolished these practices and made the place into the city garbage dump. Fires continually burned there to consume the refuse. This still doesn’t tell me how gehenna turned into ‘hell’ in our English Bibles. So, I keep going…

3) The prophet Jeremiah pronounced curses over the valley and prophesied that because the Jewish nation had abandoned God, he would make the whole nation as the Valley of Hinnom (a burning trash heap). There would be a great slaughter and they would bury their corpses there until there would be no place left to bury (See Jeremiah 19). Surely a somber warning of a horrible judgment which would befall the Jewish nation, but still no information on how this relates to ‘hell’ as we know it. I search in vain through the Old Testament for any information on this place which connects it with a future place of eternal torment.

Now, every student of the Bible should stop right here and consider the significance of this. Jesus never spoke the word ‘hell’. No, he spoke of ‘Gehenna’. Gehenna was a physical place in Jerusalem; a place to which he could point – the audience to which he spoke was familiar with this place. The history of this valley was well known from the Hebrew scriptures. But NONE of that had anything to do with the concept of ‘hell’ as a place of future punishment as we know it.

Consider then that for ‘Gehenna’ your English Bible has inserted an INTERPRETATION, not a TRANSLATION. A proper translation of gehenna would be ‘Valley of Hinnom‘, but certainly not ‘hell’. Knowing this information, what conclusions would you draw about ‘Gehenna’ by using the Bible alone? Think about it. What if the translators of the Bible had inserted ‘valley of hinnom’ (a literal translation) every time this word appears. Could you find a place of eternal torment connected to this place? No, you would be forced to conclude that Jesus was pronouncing upon those who rejected him and his message the well-known curses and judgments associated with this place as described in the Old Testament prophets. What other conclusion could you possibly come to? Scripturally, nothing in the Old Testament concerning the ‘valley of the sons of Hinnom’has anything to do with hell as we’ve been taught to understand it. Why then do our Bible translations feel justified in inserting this interpretation into our Bibles?

 

[mkgal1]

With the sources they have listed in previous posts just today,
it is no wonder they don't go by what Jesus stated,

.

 

[gordonhooker]

.

LOL I say that myself sometimes, but sometimes I include this pic as well....

 

[Der Alte]

From the Harvard Herald Journal (regarding Gehenna):

Here is the anonymous stuff that was copied from this secular website.

=========
We all know what the Bible teaches about hell. Or Do we?
Most Christians believe that hell is the place where the unsaved will be tormented in flames for all eternity.
But what exactly is this ‘hell’ Jesus spoke of? Are you sure you know?
The Greek word which has here been translated ‘hell’ is gehenna. But when I study this Greek word, this is what I find:
1) The word literally means ‘The Valley of the Sons of Hinnom“. This is a literal place in Jerusalem referenced many times in the Old Testament – you can go visit it today if you’d like.
...Now, every student of the Bible should stop right here and consider the significance of this. Jesus never spoke the word ‘hell’. No, he spoke of ‘Gehenna’. Gehenna was a physical place in Jerusalem; a place to which he could point – the audience to which he spoke was familiar with this place. The history of this valley was well known from the Hebrew scriptures. But NONE of that had anything to do with the concept of ‘hell’ as a place of future punishment as we know it.
Consider then that for ‘Gehenna’ your English Bible has inserted an INTERPRETATION, not a TRANSLATION. A proper translation of gehenna would be ‘Valley of Hinnom‘, but certainly not ‘hell’.
=======​

Sounds convincing doesn't it. But remember this is from Harvard a secular university which would say anything to discredit Christianity and the Bible. Now let us consult three highly credible Jewish sources to learn how "Gehenna" because " hell." Long before any English translation. And no matter how many times this informatilon is poted someone will still argue that Gehenna only refers to the valley outside Jerusalem.
....According to the Jewish Encyclopedia, Encyclopedia Judaica and the Talmud, among the Jews in Israel before and during the time of Jesus was a belief in a place of everlasting torment of the wicked and they called it both sheol and gehinnom.
Disclaimer: There were different groups within Judaism; Sadducees, Pharisees, Essenes etc. and there were different beliefs about resurrection, hell etc. I am addressing only the belief stated above, Any other beliefs are not relevant to this response.

Jewish Encyclopedia, Gehenna
The place where children were sacrificed to the god Moloch … in the "valley of the son of Hinnom," to the south of Jerusalem (Josh. xv. 8, passim; II Kings xxiii. 10; Jer. ii. 23; vii. 31-32; xix. 6, 13-14). … the valley was deemed to be accursed, and "Gehenna" therefore soon became a figurative equivalent for "hell." Hell, like paradise, was created by God (Sotah 22a);​

Note, this is according to the ancient Jews, long before the Christian era, NOT any supposed bias of Christian translators.

(I)n general …sinners go to hell immediately after their death. The famous teacher Johanan b. Zakkai wept before his death because he did not know whether he would go to paradise or to hell (Ber. 28b). The pious go to paradise, and sinners to hell (B.M. 83b).
But as regards the heretics, etc., and Jeroboam, Nebat's son, hell shall pass away, but they shall not pass away" (R. H. 17a; comp. Shab. 33b). All that descend into Gehenna shall come up again, with the exception of three classes of men: those who have committed adultery, or shamed their neighbors, or vilified them (B. M. 58b).[/i]
… heretics and the Roman oppressors go to Gehenna, and the same fate awaits the Persians, the oppressors of the Babylonian Jews (Ber. 8b). When Nebuchadnezzar descended into hell, [ שׁאול /Sheol]] all its inhabitants were afraid that he was coming to rule over them (Shab. 149a; comp. Isa. xiv. 9-10). The Book of Enoch also says that it is chiefly the heathen who are to be cast into the fiery pool on the Day of Judgment (x. 6, xci. 9, et al). "The Lord, the Almighty, will punish them on the Day of Judgment by putting fire and worms into their flesh, so that they cry out with pain unto all eternity" (Judith xvi. 17). The sinners in Gehenna will be filled with pain when God puts back the souls into the dead bodies on the Day of Judgment, according to Isa. xxxiii. 11 (Sanh. 108b).
Link:Jewish Encyclopedia Online
Encyclopedia Judaica:
Gehinnom (Heb. גֵּי בֶן־הִנֹּם, גֵּי בְנֵי הִנֹּם, גֵּיא בֶן־הִנֹּם, גֵּיא הִנֹּם; Gr. Γέεννα; "Valley of Ben-Hinnom, Valley of [the Son (s) of] Hinnom," Gehenna), a valley south of Jerusalem on one of the borders between the territories of Judah and Benjamin, between the Valley of *Rephaim and *En-Rogel (Josh. 15:8; 18:16). It is identified with Wadi er-Rababi.
During the time of the Monarchy, Gehinnom, at a place called Topheth, was the site of a cult which involved the burning of children (II Kings 23:10; Jer. 7:31; 32:35 et al.; see *Moloch). Jeremiah repeatedly condemned this cult and predicted that on its account Topheth and the Valley of the Son of Hinnom would be called the Valley of the "Slaughter" (Jer. 19:5–6).
In Judaism the name Gehinnom is generally used as an appellation of the place of torment reserved for the wicked after death. The New Testament used the Greek form Gehenna in the same sense.
Gehinnom
= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
Talmud -Tractate Rosh Hashanah Chapter 1.
The school of Hillel says: . . . but as for Minim, [follower of Jesus] informers and disbelievers, who deny the Torah, or Resurrection, or separate themselves from the congregation, or who inspire their fellowmen with dread of them, or who sin and cause others to sin, as did Jeroboam the son of Nebat and his followers, they all descend to Gehenna, and are judged there from generation to generation, as it is said [Isa. lxvi. 24]: "And they shall go forth and look upon the carcases of the men who have transgressed against Me; for their worm shall not die, neither shall their fire be quenched." Even when Gehenna will be destroyed, they will not be consumed, as it is written [Psalms, xlix. 15]: "And their forms wasteth away in the nether world," which the sages comment upon to mean that their forms shall endure even when the grave is no more. Concerning them Hannah says [I Sam. ii. 10]: "The adversaries of the Lord shall be broken to pieces."
Link:Tract Rosh Hashana: Chapter I.​

=======

The traditional explanation that a burning rubbish heap in the Valley of Hinnom south of Jerusalem gave rise to the idea of a fiery Gehenna of judgment is attributed to Rabbi David Kimhi's commentary on Psalm 27:13 (ca. A.D. 1200). He maintained that in this loathsome valley fires were kept burning perpetually to consume the filth and cadavers thrown into it. However, Strack and Billerbeck state that there is neither archaeological nor literary evidence in support of this claim, in either the earlier intertestamental or the later rabbinic sources (Hermann L. Strack and Paul Billerbeck, Kommentar zum Neuen Testament aus Talmud and Midrasch, 5 vols. [Munich: Beck, 1922-56], 4:2:1030). Also a more recent author holds a similar view (Lloyd R. Bailey, "Gehenna: The Topography of Hell," Biblical Archeologist 49 [1986]: 189.
Source, Bibliotheca Sacra / July–September 1992
Scharen: Gehenna in the Synoptics Pt. 1​

Note there is no “archaeological nor literary evidence in support of this claim, [that Gehenna was ever used as a garbage dump] in either the earlier intertestamental or the later rabbinic sources” If Gehenna was ever used as a garbage dump there should be broken pottery, tools, utensils, bones, etc. but there is no such evidence.

“Gehenna is presented as diametrically opposed to ‘life’: it is better to enter life than to go to Gehenna. . .It is common practice, both in scholarly and less technical works, to associate the description of Gehenna with the supposedly contemporary garbage dump in the valley of Hinnom. This association often leads scholars to emphasize the destructive aspects of the judgment here depicted: fire burns until the object is completely consumed. Two particular problems may be noted in connection with this approach. First, there is no convincing evidence in the primary sources for the existence of a fiery rubbish dump in this location (in any case, a thorough investigation would be appreciated). Secondly, the significant background to this passage more probably lies in Jesus’ allusion to Isaiah 66:24.”
(“The Duration of Divine Judgment in the New Testament” in The Reader Must Understand edited by K. Brower and M. W. Ellion, p. 223, emphasis mine)
G. R. Beasley-Murray in Jesus and the Kingdom of God:
“Ge-Hinnom (Aramaic Ge-hinnam, hence the Greek Geenna), ‘The Valley of Hinnom,’ lay south of Jerusalem, immediately outside its walls. The notion, still referred to by some commentators, that the city’s rubbish was burned in this valley, has no further basis than a statement by the Jewish scholar Kimchi (sic) made about A.D. 1200; it is not attested in any ancient source.” (p. 376n.92)
The Burning Garbage Dump of Gehenna is a myth - Archaeology, Biblical History & Textual Criticism ​

 

[redleghunter]

. "How you see yourself and how you see others is how you see God."

Isn't that akin to making God in our own image?

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

Isn't that akin to making God in our own image?

More like "aching" to see things one way that permits a controversial false teaching to slip past people who don't know better,
as YHWH is PLEASED to REVEAL to all who seek HIM in TRUTH. Right?

 

[Radagast]

Jesus will eventually save everyone. This is at the core of the Gospel.

No, this is a completely unbiblical idea.

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

The "reason" someone falls for a false doctrine like universalism

might help if it is revealed - not just knowing the truth of salvation in Jesus rejects those who are condemned,
but
knowing WHY someone who believes the false doctrine - for why would anyone
wittingly go along with a false doctrine such as universalism ?

(1) to make friends ?
(2) to keep friends ?
(3) to make money ?
(4) to keep status in a group of friends (or even in a church that teaches the false doctrine of universalism) ?
(5) to get a spouse ? (who believes it)
(6) to keep a spouse ? (who believes it)
(7) too embarrassed to give it up ? (after being tricked into believing it, OR having been raised with it and not knowing better soon enough to avoid the deception)

Any other ideas ? Anyone ever recovered from being sifted by satan by that or some other false doctrine and willing to reveal why they believed it to start with ?

(Maybe some other false idea that goes along with it frequently ? )
(this happens a lot more than many people realize - not just is one false doctrine bad enough, but other false teachings go along with it thus compounding the problem and deepening the deception and the hold it has on people)

 

[Hewillcome2040]

No, this is a completely unbiblical idea.

Your now on my ignore list

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

No, this is a completely unbiblical idea.

The whole world ignores the Bible and Jesus and God,

so you're definitely on the true and right narrow path to LIFE ! as JESUS SAYS ! YEAH !!!!!!!

 

[jerry kelso]

You missing the understanding that sin is debt. Sin is no longer accounted for after the debt is paid. Look a the parable of the unforgiving servant. How long was he to be punished? - TILL he paid his debt.

hewillcome2040,

1. First, the parable of the unforgiving servant was an illustration which had a specific point.
The point was not about the debt, but forgiveness.
He could of used different scenarios for unforgiveness.
So this is nothing about equating that debt with the debt of sin.

2. The point is that Christ was a ransom that satisfied the debt.
In one sense he wasn't a substitute for man because he was the only one who could and would be the ultimate sacrifice as the God-man Genesis 3:15.
Christ was not a debtor that owed a debt he had to pay. He gave his life freely.
Bought with a price was his blood not a cash transaction.
This understanding is to show that the penal substitutionary atonement theory is not correct.
This theory is to prove Unconditional Eternal Security was like a cash transaction.
They also push sins forgiven, past, present, and future sins.
They do believe in repentance and grace.
But this doesn't work with their theory because Christ laid down his life freely and individual sins cannot be forgiven, past, present, and future at one time.
If this happened it would have been at the cross and everyone saint and sinner would have been saved forever and never have the possibility of losing salvation for any reason.
We know this didn't happen, otherwise Jesus wouldn't have said Repent for this is the KoH.
But, as I said before if saints and sinners sins past, presents, and future were paid at the cross there would be no reason for repentance, having faith or grace for the final transaction would have been paid for.

2. We are bought with a price which was his blood he shed for remission of sins.

3. So it is more appropriate to say that Jesus was the ransom who satisfied the penalty for sin. Jerry kelso

 

[jerry kelso]

Points made well and consistent. The above is most important as you point out the OP is based on eisegesis and not exegesis.

redleghunter,

1. Thanks. Many don't understand how important complete exegesis of context and reconciling the scriptures together are as well as correcting translation of particular words among other hermeneutics. Jerry kelso

 

[redleghunter]

Your now on my ignore list

Quite an interesting debating strategy.

 

[gordonhooker]

Isn't that akin to making God in our own image?

That is exactly what I said, what did you think I said?

By the way it wasn’t meant to be how we should see God...

 

[Hewillcome2040]

hewillcome2040,

1. First, the parable of the unforgiving servant was an illustration which had a specific point.
The point was not about the debt, but forgiveness.
He could of used different scenarios for unforgiveness.
So this is nothing about equating that debt with the debt of sin.

2. The point is that Christ was a ransom that satisfied the debt.
In one sense he wasn't a substitute for man because he was the only one who could and would be the ultimate sacrifice as the God-man Genesis 3:15.
Christ was not a debtor that owed a debt he had to pay. He gave his life freely.
Bought with a price was his blood not a cash transaction.
This understanding is to show that the penal substitutionary atonement theory is not correct.
This theory is to prove Unconditional Eternal Security was like a cash transaction.
They also push sins forgiven, past, present, and future sins.
They do believe in repentance and grace.
But this doesn't work with their theory because Christ laid down his life freely and individual sins cannot be forgiven, past, present, and future at one time.
If this happened it would have been at the cross and everyone saint and sinner would have been saved forever and never have the possibility of losing salvation for any reason.
We know this didn't happen, otherwise Jesus wouldn't have said Repent for this is the KoH.
But, as I said before if saints and sinners sins past, presents, and future were paid at the cross there would be no reason for repentance, having faith or grace for the final transaction would have been paid for.

2. We are bought with a price which was his blood he shed for remission of sins.

3. So it is more appropriate to say that Jesus was the ransom who satisfied the penalty for sin. Jerry kelso

Answer me these questions so I can get an understanding better of what you believe.

1.) Who creates Life?
2.) Who does everything with a purpose?
3.) Who never fails?
4.) Who gets what He desires?
5.) Who desires that none should be lost forever?
6.) Who desires that all should be saved?
7.) Who will is greater - man or God?
8.) Can God persuade?
9.) Can God fail to persuade?
10.) Does God have the power to save everyone?

 

[redleghunter]

That is exactly what I said, what did you think I said?

By the way it wasn’t meant to be how we should see God...

This is what I responded to:

Right on the money and all this can be summed up in these words... "How you see yourself and how you see others is how you see God."