Universal Resurrection

[ewq1938]

It says they lived not.

You left out the word "not".

And you are leaving out the word "until". They only lived not for the thousand years because they were not worthy to be part of the group that resurrected first.

But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished.

 

[sovereigngrace]

There is no if possible. They did live again once the thousand years were finished.



They don't get to choose. God will resurrect them. In other scripture this is called the resurrection of damnation.




It is called a resurrection because the rest of the dead will resurrect.

Revelation 20:4: “And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.”

This is talking about the current dead of Christ enjoying the presence of Christ now.

Revelation 20:5: “But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection."

This is talking about the current wicked dead who are now in Hades.

Revelation 20:6: “Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years."

This is talking about the salvation enjoyed by those who have their part in Christ's glorious first resurrection (the only first resurrection known in Scripture).

Revelation 20:7-11: “And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison, And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea. And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them. And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever. And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.”

This is the second coming!

Revelation 20:12-13: “And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works. And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.”

This is the general resurrection when Jesus comes!

Revelation 20:14-15: “And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.”

This is the final separation on the one-and-only judgment day - when Jesus comes! Simple!

 

[Timtofly]

Can't say I ever looked at that way myself. I grasp what you are saying, yet this ignores the 'until' in that verse. I see it meaning that they don't live again, which BTW is what a resurrection means, to live again, until the thousand years finish first. And not that they never live again, because if true that would indicate they are never raised from the dead.
And besides, the fact this involves a 2nd death, that requires that one has to live two different times, in order to die 2 different times.

The second death is the destruction of the spirit. Once a spirit is demonized, no connection to God whatsoever, there is no coming back to life. One can be physically dead and sent to the Lake of fire without a resurrection. You do not need a special body for the spirit to "die" spiritually. Demons take over other people's living bodies.

 

[ewq1938]

One can be physically dead and sent to the Lake of fire without a resurrection.

Nope. All who go to the LOF will go there physically alive. All the dead will have a resurrection, some to life and some to damnation.

Joh_5:29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

Act_24:15 And have hope toward God, which they themselves also allow, that there shall be a resurrection of the dead, both of the just and unjust.

 

[jeffweedaman]

The second death is the destruction of the spirit. Once a spirit is demonized, no connection to God whatsoever, there is no coming back to life.

Rubbish.

Matt 4
And the news about Him spread throughout Syria; and they brought to Him all who were ill, those suffering with various diseases and severe pain, demon-possessed, people with epilepsy, and people who were paralyzed; and He healed them.

Matt 8
Now when evening came, they brought to Him many who were demon-possessed; and He cast out the spirits with a word, and healed all who were ill.

Matt 12
Then a demon-possessed man who was blind and unable to speak was brought to Jesus, and He healed him so that the man who was unable to speak talked and could see.

Mark 5
And as He was getting into the boat, the man who had been demon-possessed was begging Him that he might accompany Him.


Grace of God is sufficient , even for the repentant demon possessed who desire to follow him.

 

[Freedm]

Yes, that's still two resurrections as proven by all the examples I have already cited. "the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished" proves one part of those who are dead have to wait before resurrecting. There's no way to get around that.

It's true that there are two resurrections mentioned in Revelation, and the first resurrection is only for the righteous, but there's no reason the second resurrection can't be for both the wicked and the righteous.

 

[ewq1938]

It's true that there are two resurrections mentioned in Revelation, and the first resurrection is only for the righteous, but there's no reason the second resurrection can't be for both the wicked and the righteous.

Actually there can be no righteous in the second resurrection based on what you just said, "the first resurrection is only for the righteous". If the righteous are resurrected at the first resurrection then how could any still be dead at the time of the second resurrection?

Since "the dead in Christ rise first" there are no dead in Christ left waiting for a resurrection when the unsaved are resurrected.

 

[Freedm]

Paul says a new permanent body awaits the soul. It is more physical and in the image of God than the dead corruptible body from Adam genetically. What do you mean by spirit, ethereal? A vapor? God is light. Jesus was changed into a brilliant light that was physical on the mount of Transfiguration. Moses physical face was so bright, it had to be covered after seeing God on Mount Sinai. That was physical. Satan did not get the body of Moses, not even his soul was in Abraham's bosom. Moses was also physically on the mount of Transfiguration. Sin blinds us from the half of physical creation, you call spiritual. What we see is literally death walking around as physical. There is no life except that quickened by the Holy Spirit. Yet this is as physical as can be at the moment.

So you call their body spiritual, but Paul says it is permanent and incorruptible and is more physical than this current temporal corruptible body.

You seem to be getting hung up on semantics. Call it "spiritual", call it "incorruptible", "immortal", whatever you want. The question is, do you think that those who were resurrected when Jesus died, and also Lazarus, do you think these people were resurrected in the body that can enter into heaven? Yes, or no?

 

[ewq1938]

You seem to be getting hung up on semantics. Call it "spiritual", call it "incorruptible", "immortal", whatever you want. The question is, do you think that those who were resurrected when Jesus died, and also Lazarus, do you think these people were resurrected in the body that can enter into heaven? Yes, or no?

Any body can enter heaven if God brings them there but IMO only Christ resurrected into an immortal body (his dead mortal body changed into immortal as it resurrected). I don't believe any other resurrections prior to the mass bodily resurrection of the dead in Christ involve immortality.

 

[Freedm]

Any body can enter heaven if God brings them there but IMO only Christ resurrected into an immortal body (his dead mortal body changed into immortal as it resurrected). I don't believe any other resurrections prior to the mass bodily resurrection of the dead in Christ involve immortality.

You say any body can enter heaven, but Paul disagrees.

1 Corinthians 15:50
I declare to you, brothers and sisters, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God.

Therefore, it's my opinion that if these people were not raised with their heavenly bodies, then they would've still had to die again on earth before being changed into their heavenly bodies. And that's why I was asking you, which type of body do you think they were raised with?

 

[Timtofly]

You left out the word "until", so how are you interpreting the word “until” in Revelation 20:5?

Until they are cast into the Lake of Fire.

At what time does the soul cease existence? Never. The soul "needs" both a physical body and a spirit. Do soyls need an incorruptible sin free body in the Lake of Fire? Revelation 22:15

15 Outside are the homosexuals, those involved with the occult and with drugs, the sexually immoral, murderers, idol-worshippers, and everyone who loves and practices falsehood.

Is the Lake of Fire Outside?

 

[ewq1938]

You say any body can enter heaven, but Paul disagrees.

1 Corinthians 15:50
I declare to you, brothers and sisters, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God.

Pail said INHERIT not ENTER.

 

[grafted branch]

Until they are cast into the Lake of Fire.

Acts 24:15 says there will be a resurrection for everyone both just and unjust.

So if I understand you correctly the dead in Revelation 20:5 are resurrected (see Acts 24:15), stand before the GWT, are judged and not found in the book of life, are thrown into the lake of fire, and then they live again.

Do I have your interpretation correct? If this is true shouldn’t the lake of fire be called the second life instead of the second death?

 

[Timtofly]

I agree with all those things Paul said and i think you know that.

All the lost who refuse to love the truth will be dead and judged at the Lords appearing.

2Pet 3
7 But by His word the present heavens and earth are being reserved for fire, kept for the day of judgment and destruction of ungodly men.

2Thess 2
8 Then that lawless one will be revealed whom the Lord will slay with the breath of His mouth and bring to an end by the appearance of His coming; 9 that is, the one whose coming is in accord with the activity of Satan, with all power and signs and false wonders, 10 and with all the deception of wickedness for those who perish, because they did not receive the love of the truth so as to be saved.
11 For this reason God will send upon them a deluding influence so that they will believe what is false, 12 in order that they all may be judged who did not believe the truth, but took pleasure in wickedness.


2Thess 1
3 We ought always to give thanks to God for you, brethren, as is only fitting, because your faith is greatly enlarged, and the love of each one of you toward one another grows ever greater; 4 therefore, we ourselves speak proudly of you among the churches of God for your perseverance and faith in the midst of all your persecutions and afflictions which you endure. 5 This is a plain indication of God’s righteous judgment so that you will be considered worthy of the kingdom of God, for which indeed you are suffering.
6 For after all it is only just for God to repay with affliction those who afflict you, 7 and to give relief to you who are afflicted and to us as well when the Lord Jesus will be revealed from heaven with His mighty angels in flaming fire, 8 dealing out retribution to those who do not know God and to those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus. 9 These will pay the penalty of eternal destruction, away from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power, 10 when He comes to be glorified in His saints on that day, and to be marveled at among all who have believed—for our testimony to you was believed.

The second coming is the GWT judgment that destroys the ungodly.

Rev 11
And the nations were enraged, and Your wrath came, and the time came for the dead to be judged, and the time to reward Your bond-servants the prophets and the saints and those who fear Your name, the small and the great, and to destroy those who destroy the earth.”

Matt 25
31 “But when the Son of Man comes in His glory, and all the angels with Him, then He will sit on His glorious throne. 32 All the nations will be gathered before Him; and He will separate them from one another, as the shepherd separates the sheep from the goats; 33 and He will put the sheep on His right, and the goats on the left.

34 “Then the King will say to those on His right, ‘Come, you who are blessed of My Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world.

41 “Then He will also say to those on His left, ‘Depart from Me, accursed ones, into the eternal fire which has been prepared for the devil and his angels;

Being destroyed physically, yes.

The GWT is the judgment of physically dead people, not physically living people who never died.

 

[Timtofly]

There is no if possible. They did live again once the thousand years were finished.



They don't get to choose. God will resurrect them. In other scripture this is called the resurrection of damnation.




It is called a resurrection because the rest of the dead will resurrect.

It is never called a resurrection. That is an assumption.

12 And I saw the dead, both great and small, standing in front of the throne.

Spiritually standing as dead souls.

Revelation 6:9

9 When the Lamb broke the fifth seal, I saw underneath the altar the souls of those who had been put to death for proclaiming the Word of God.

How can you claim these are not incorruptible resurrected bodies, yet claim standing dead are resurrected?

You can have a figurative resurrection like SG claims with the word "spiritual". Where the nation of Israel is brought back "to life". These humans have not died physically, but some go to eternal life and some eternal damnation by then physically dying as sheep and goats. God never claims to bring back souls after spending years in sheol and Paradise to live on earth for a few hours, just to be sent back to Paradise and the Lake of Fire. How does that make sense?

 

[ewq1938]

It is never called a resurrection. That is an assumption.

They are said to live again after the thousand years which is a resurrection.

G326
ἀναζάω
anazaō
an-ad-zah'-o
From G303 and G2198; to recover life (literally or figuratively): - (be a-) live again, revive.
Total KJV occurrences: 5


It's also referenced here:

Joh_5:29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

Damnation is a word that means judgment by tribunal or criminal justice.

G2920
κρίσις
krisis
kree'-sis
(Subjectively or objectively, for or against); by extension a tribunal; by implication justice (specifically divine law): - accusation, condemnation, damnation, judgment.
Total KJV occurrences: 48

G2920
κρίσις
krisis
Thayer Definition:
1) a separating, sundering, separation
1a) a trial, contest
2) selection
3) judgment
3a) opinion or decision given concerning anything
3a1) especially concerning justice and injustice, right or wrong
3b) sentence of condemnation, damnatory judgment, condemnation and punishment
4) the college of judges (a tribunal of seven men in the several cities of Palestine; as distinguished from the Sanhedrin, which had its seat at Jerusalem)
5) right, justice
Part of Speech: noun feminine
A Related Word by Thayer’s/Strong’s Number: perhaps a primitive word
Citing in TDNT: 3:941, 469

12 And I saw the dead, both great and small, standing in front of the throne.

Spiritually standing as dead souls.

No, they are physically standing after having a physical resurrection.

 

[Timtofly]

And you are leaving out the word "until". They only lived not for the thousand years because they were not worthy to be part of the group that resurrected first.

But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished.

I said the potential to live has not been taken away. It is not a guarantee that eternal life is accepted by those in sheol after spending years there. The second death is spiritual. You do not need a physical body to be spiritually dead.

 

[Timtofly]

Revelation 20:4: “And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.”

This is talking about the current dead of Christ enjoying the presence of Christ now.

Revelation 20:5: “But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection."

This is talking about the current wicked dead who are now in Hades.

Revelation 20:6: “Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years."

This is talking about the salvation enjoyed by those who have their part in Christ's glorious first resurrection (the only first resurrection known in Scripture).

Revelation 20:7-11: “And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison, And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea. And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them. And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever. And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.”

This is the second coming!

Revelation 20:12-13: “And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works. And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.”

This is the general resurrection when Jesus comes!

Revelation 20:14-15: “And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.”

This is the final separation on the one-and-only judgment day - when Jesus comes! Simple!

The FP and the AC were placed in the Lake of Fire at the Cross during the first coming?

Now at the Second Coming, Satan joins them?

 

[Timtofly]

Nope. All who go to the LOF will go there physically alive. All the dead will have a resurrection, some to life and some to damnation.

Joh_5:29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

Act_24:15 And have hope toward God, which they themselves also allow, that there shall be a resurrection of the dead, both of the just and unjust.

And I said, if they are raised at the GWT they are then given eternal life and escape the Lake of Fire. Most will state they do not get another chance. At the point the dead stand before God none of them are alive physically. You and others refuse to say, do they get an incorruptible body. If they get a corruptible body it is a dead physical body full of sin. That is not a resurrection just to die again. A Resurrection to life is to everlasting life.

It is like amil refuse to see the 1000 year physical reign then turn around and claim the dead get to physically live in the Lake of Fire. If that is possible, then so is the 1000 year physical reign on earth. Why the double standard? Is the Lake of Fire just the name of a city, and they build houses and roads, and have an advanced technology and economy?

 

[ewq1938]

And I said, if they are raised at the GWT they are then given eternal life and escape the Lake of Fire.

No one of the second resurrection escapes the LOF.

At the point the dead stand before God none of them are alive physically.

This is incorrect, they are all alive.

You and others refuse to say, do they get an incorruptible body. If they get a corruptible body it is a dead physical body full of sin. That is not a resurrection just to die again. A Resurrection to life is to everlasting life.

They take part of the resurrection of damnation not the resurrection of life:

Joh 5:29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.