Universal Resurrection

[grafted branch]

Priests in the Millennium are immortal so it's impossible any priest will die during that time plus that is post-resurrection which means there are no marriage either. That part of Ezekiel simply isn't the Millennium.

Fair enough, I was under the impression that Ezekiel 40 to the end of the book was referring to the third temple and the millennium.

What about believers dying in the millennium? Do you think they will or will not die during this time?

 

[ewq1938]

Fair enough, I was under the impression that Ezekiel 40 to the end of the book was referring to the third temple and the millennium.

What about believers dying in the millennium? Do you think they will or will not die during this time?

The dead in Christ are resurrected immortal, and the living are changed into immortal so none of them can die in the Millennium. They will be ruling the mortal nations so those mortals could die although some believe they are allowed to remain alive the entire thousand years.

 

[keras]

I was under the impression that Ezekiel 40 to the end of the book was referring to the third temple and the millennium.

A correct impression, as Ezekiel 40_48 is all prophecy about the Millennium period. Proved by how the people elect a leader, a 'ruler', who will make offerings in the new Temple.

What about believers dying in the millennium? Do you think they will or will not die during this time?

People will be born and they will still die. But the conditions will be such, that life will be extended; as it was in the time of the Patriarchs.

The dead in Christ are resurrected immortal, and the living are changed into immortal so none of them can die in the Millennium. They will be ruling the mortal nations so those mortals could die although some believe they are allowed to remain alive the entire thousand years.

It is impossible for anyone to receive immortality before the GWT Judgment and the Book of Life is opened.
Revelation 20:4 simply says; those martyrs are brought back to life, NOT given immortality.

 

[ViaCrucis]

11 Next I saw a great white throne and the One sitting on it. Earth and heaven fled from his presence, and no place was found for them.
12 And I saw the dead, both great and small, standing in front of the throne. Books were opened; and another book was opened, the Book of Life; and the dead were judged from what was written in the books, according to what they had done.
13 The sea gave up the dead in it; and Death and Sh’ol gave up the dead in them; and they were judged, each according to what he had done.
14 Then Death and Sh’ol were hurled into the lake of fire. This is the second death — the lake of fire.
15 Anyone whose name was not found written in the Book of Life was hurled into the lake of fire.


The word resurrection is not found once in these verses.

The word "resurrection? No, but resurrection is mentioned right there in the text, it's verse 13

"The sea gave up the dead in it; and Death and Sh’ol gave up the dead in them; and they were judged, each according to what he had done."

-CryptoLutheran

 

[grafted branch]

People will be born and they will still die. But the conditions will be such, that life will be extended; as it was in the time of the Patriarchs.

What is your view on what happens after the millennium? Are the saved people that die during that time resurrected?

Also the dead are seen standing before the GWT. I think everyone here except for Timtofly agrees that the dead is referring to the spiritually dead that have been resurrected. Would you agree with the Amil view here and say that both believers and unbelievers are at GWT?

 

[DavidPT]

Would you agree with the Amil view here and say that both believers and unbelievers are at GWT?

Why would believers be at that judgment if what Paul tells us in 1 Corinthians 15:51-57 and 1 Thessalonians 4:13-17, is true? If the dead in Christ rise first, followed by the rapture, what about the lost still alive on the earth? How can the GWTJ precede their deaths? How do they rise from the dead in order to be at the GWTJ if this judgment already began and ended before they are even phyically dead first? How can anyone still alive at the time, that are raptured after the dead in Christ rise first, possibly end up among the resurrected dead at the GWTJ? How do they get there if they are not even resurrected from the dead?

Revelation 19:21 And the remnant were slain with the sword of him that sat upon the horse, which sword proceeded out of his mouth: and all the fowls were filled with their flesh.

How can the GWTJ possibly mean before this is fulfilled first? How can the dead in Christ rising first and the rapture possibly mean after Revelation 19:21 is fulfilled, rather than before it is fulfilled? The point being, until Revelation 19:21 is fulfilled first, the GWTJ can't even take place.

 

[Timtofly]

That contradicts scripture that literally says they will be resurrected. If the resurrection of life is physical, so is the resurrection of damnation.

Mat_10:28 And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.

This proves the unsaved MUST have bodies that are cast into hell/LOF.

The point is not the outcome. The point is to fear God. Yes God has the ability to give those in sheol a bodily resurrection. That God actually does that is to be seen. No where does Scripture say God ever removes a soul from existence. You are taking ability and turning it in to fact. A fact that is assumed, and not necessarily reality until the GWT.

All we have is the dead stand before God dead. The first resurrection is a physical body resurrection. John would have to call the GWT a first resurrection of the dead standing before God for them to have physical bodies restored to them. A Second Resurrection is not physical. This is what John wrote:

5 (The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were over.) This is the first resurrection.

If you interpret the first resurrection to apply again after the thousand years, then that is a bodily resurrection.

My interpretation is that some may take advantage of that first resurrection at the GWT. They will accept the Atonement of the Cross, otherwise the dead will be cast into the Lake of Fire as still being dead.

If you are dogmatic about a first type, physical body resurrection at the GWT it would be because they accepted the Atonement then. Jesus does not call those out of the grave to eternal damnation by giving them eternal life. Eternal life and eternal damnation are the only two distinct choices and not the same thing.

 

[DavidPT]

Here is a question or two for Amils that believe both believers and unbelievers are present at the GWTJ and are being judged according to their works.

Revelation 20:7 And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,
8 And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea.
9 And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.


Assuming Amil, this is meaning things that end up involving the 2nd coming at the end of these events.

There are two groups in view---1) the group which surrounds the camp of saints. 2) the camp of saints being surrounded. As can be seen in verse 9, it is the ones surrounding the camp of saints that are killed. The camp of saints come out untouched, unharmed, the fact the fire from God out of heaven doesn't devour them as well, but only devours their attackers.

After this event, per Amil, the GWTJ then commences. Here is the question, then. The fact the camp of saints don't end up dead, how is it that they somehow end up among the resurrected dead standing before God at the GWTJ?

Revelation 20:12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.
13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.
14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

Can any Amil point out in the above verses which line the camp of saints in verse 9 are standing in? Are they standing in the line among the dead, small and great? Are they standing in the line among the dead from the sea? Are they standing in the line among the dead from death and hell?

 

[Timtofly]

Fair enough, I was under the impression that Ezekiel 40 to the end of the book was referring to the third temple and the millennium.

What about believers dying in the millennium? Do you think they will or will not die during this time?

There is no church on earth during the millennium. It is the iron rule of Jesus Christ. Rebellion is instant Death. The reason to rebel has to be strong in the mind of those who know they will instantly die, if they act on their thoughts. Life is granted by obedience to the Law. There will be no prisons or chances to reform.

People seem to "mock" the Law of Moses. It was an economy that worked. Worked better than currency and greed.

With no sin or sin nature, work will not have the feel of punishment that it does today. Work will not be a means of control or self worth. The example of Cain trying to make work something it is not, can be noted in Genesis 4. Will people complain about how God views their accomplishments in the millennium?

If people teach there are no second chances in the church age of Grace, there will definitely not be any second chances when a death sentence is given in the Millennium. Death will not be because of sin. It will be from rejecting God directly. Cain was allowed to keep on living. Those in the millennium will not.

 

[grafted branch]

Why would believers be at that judgment if what Paul tells us in 1 Corinthians 15:51-57 and 1 Thessalonians 4:13-17, is true?

I personally don’t think believers will be at the GWTJ, but I’m interested in looking at the views of others that do think this and I would like to look at the scriptures they use to support this.

How can the dead in Christ rising first and the rapture possibly mean after Revelation 19:21 is fulfilled, rather than before it is fulfilled?

If the first physical resurrection of people occurred right after Christ arose, as seen in Matthew 27:52-53, then the armies which were in heaven that come with Christ in Revelation 19:14 can happen before the dead in Christ rise.

 

[keras]

What is your view on what happens after the millennium? Are the saved people that die during that time resurrected?

After the Millennium comes Eternity.
All the people who have ever lived will stand before God on His Great White Throne. I don't call that a resurrection, as such; but perhaps a spiritual presence, just their souls.

Would you agree with the Amil view here and say that both believers and unbelievers are at GWT?

Yes.

I personally don’t think believers will be at the GWTJ, but I’m interested in looking at the views of others that do think this and I would like to look at the scriptures they use to support this.

Believers will be there. Job, Abraham, David, +, will all be there.
1 Corinthians 15:50-56 describes this time, it gives the assurance that those who are alive at the end of the Millennium and whose names are found in the Book of Life; will be instantly changed into immortality.
The dead believers, will be raised into immortality.
All the rest of humankind will go into the Lake of Fire.

If the first physical resurrection of people occurred right after Christ arose, as seen in Matthew 27:52-53, then the armies which were in heaven that come with Christ in Revelation 19:14 can happen before the dead in Christ rise.

You are just a tad confusing here; GB.
Those saints raised with Christ, must have died again. We are not told anything about them.

The ONLY people raised when Jesus Returns, accompanied by His angel army, are the martyrs killed during the 42 month reign of the 'beast'.

 

[DavidPT]

If the first physical resurrection of people occurred right after Christ arose, as seen in Matthew 27:52-53, then the armies which were in heaven that come with Christ in Revelation 19:14 can happen before the dead in Christ rise.

I think I somewhat see where you are going with this, yet this doesn't take into account the dead in Christ, where according to most Christians, would be present in heaven with Christ upon death, but not bodily, but meaning their souls. When heaven is opened per ch 19, why would these not be among the armies seen coming with Christ, but would only involve those that bodily came out of their graves per Matthew 27:52-53, around the time of Christ's resurrection?

Does Christ just leave them behind when He leaves heaven, then gathers them later? Or maybe no souls actually go to heaven upon death? If the latter, then I guess it wouldn't matter. If the former I don't see it making sense that Christ would leave heaven without including them as well. Speaking of that then, Paul did indicate the following in 1 Thessalonians 4:14----even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.

 

[grafted branch]

Those saints raised with Christ, must have died again. We are not told anything about them.

Revelation 14:4 calls the 144,000 redeemed from among men, being the first fruits unto God and to the Lamb. In Revelation 14:1 they are seen on mount Sion with the Lamb. After Christ arose, in John 20:17, he tells Mary not to touch him because he had not yet ascended to the Father. So when the 144,000 follow the Lamb withersoever he goeth, it would be to heaven.

I would say that the people in Matthew 27:52-53 are the 144,000 and they met up with the Lamb on mount Sion and ascended with him as the first fruits.

If those who came out of the graves died again then this would be the first account of a general resurrection of saints that resulted in physical death again. Since it is appointed once to die then the judgment, the conclusion would have to be that they were judged and that is why they died again. This would be the second death. I personally don’t think this can be accurate.

 

[grafted branch]

Does Christ just leave them behind when He leaves heaven, then gathers them later? Or maybe no souls actually go to heaven upon death? If the latter, then I guess it wouldn't matter. If the former I don't see it making sense that Christ would leave heaven without including them as well. Speaking of that then, Paul did indicate the following in 1 Thessalonians 4:14----even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.

I don’t think Christ would leave anyone behind, so it certainly could be referring to both.

 

[jeffweedaman]

Why would believers be at that judgment if what Paul tells us in 1 Corinthians 15:51-57 and 1 Thessalonians 4:13-17, is true? If the dead in Christ rise first, followed by the rapture, what about the lost still alive on the earth?

Why would they still be alive?
Paul tells us the Lord comes like a thief and destruction is sudden, just like our change is sudden like a twinkling of an eye.


Now as to the times and the epochs, brethren, you have no need of anything to be written to you. 2 For you yourselves know full well that the day of the Lord will come just like a thief in the night. 3 While they are saying, “Peace and safety!” then destruction will come upon them suddenly like labor pains upon a woman with child, and they will not escape. 4 But you, brethren, are not in darkness, that the day would overtake you like a thief; 5 for you are all sons of light and sons of day. We are not of night nor of darkness; 6 so then let us not sleep as others do, but let us be alert and sober. 7 For those who sleep do their sleeping at night, and those who get drunk get drunk at night. 8 But since we are of the day, let us be sober, having put on the breastplate of faith and love, and as a helmet, the hope of salvation. 9 For God has not destined us for wrath, but for obtaining salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ, 10 who died for us, so that whether we are awake or asleep, we will live together with Him. 11 Therefore encourage one another and build up one another, just as you also are doing.



6 For after all it is only just for God to repay with affliction those who afflict you, 7 and to give relief to you who are afflicted and to us as well when the Lord Jesus will be revealed from heaven with His mighty angels in flaming fire, 8 dealing out retribution to those who do not know God and to those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus. 9 These will pay the penalty of eternal destruction, away from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power, 10 when He comes to be glorified in His saints on that day, and to be marveled at among all who have believed—for our testimony to you was believed

 

[DavidPT]

Why would they still be alive?
Paul tells us the Lord comes like a thief and destruction is sudden, just like our change is sudden like a twinkling of an eye.


Now as to the times and the epochs, brethren, you have no need of anything to be written to you. 2 For you yourselves know full well that the day of the Lord will come just like a thief in the night. 3 While they are saying, “Peace and safety!” then destruction will come upon them suddenly like labor pains upon a woman with child, and they will not escape. 4 But you, brethren, are not in darkness, that the day would overtake you like a thief; 5 for you are all sons of light and sons of day. We are not of night nor of darkness; 6 so then let us not sleep as others do, but let us be alert and sober. 7 For those who sleep do their sleeping at night, and those who get drunk get drunk at night. 8 But since we are of the day, let us be sober, having put on the breastplate of faith and love, and as a helmet, the hope of salvation. 9 For God has not destined us for wrath, but for obtaining salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ, 10 who died for us, so that whether we are awake or asleep, we will live together with Him. 11 Therefore encourage one another and build up one another, just as you also are doing.



6 For after all it is only just for God to repay with affliction those who afflict you, 7 and to give relief to you who are afflicted and to us as well when the Lord Jesus will be revealed from heaven with His mighty angels in flaming fire, 8 dealing out retribution to those who do not know God and to those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus. 9 These will pay the penalty of eternal destruction, away from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power, 10 when He comes to be glorified in His saints on that day, and to be marveled at among all who have believed—for our testimony to you was believed

I don't buy this Amil theory that every single event involving the 2nd coming happens in this same twinkling of an eye. Just because other passages speak of sudden destruction, that doesn't mean this sudden destruction is over with in a twinkling of an eye. Apparently, some Amils must think that the GWTJ also occurs and finishes during this same twinkling of an eye? In Matthew 24 it compares the 2nd coming with that of Noah's flood. Noah's flood never involved a twinkling of an eye. When God destroyed Sodom and Gomorrah, that never happened in a twinkling of an eye. When Jerusalem and the temple were destroyed in 70 AD, those things didn't happen in a twinkling of an eye.

 

[jeffweedaman]

I don't buy this Amil theory that every single event involving the 2nd coming happens in this same twinkling of an eye. Just because other passages speak of sudden destruction, that doesn't mean this sudden destruction is over with in a twinkling of an eye.

One thing is for sure, it occurs the same day the Lord appears according to the scriptures I posted.

Now as to the times and the epochs, brethren, you have no need of anything to be written to you. 2 For you yourselves know full well that the day of the Lord will come just like a thief in the night. 3 While they are saying, “Peace and safety!” then destruction will come upon them suddenly like labor pains upon a woman with child, and they will not escape. 4 But you, brethren, are not in darkness, that the day would overtake you like a thief; 5 for you are all sons of light and sons of day. We are not of night nor of darkness; 6 so then let us not sleep as others do, but let us be alert and sober. 7 For those who sleep do their sleeping at night, and those who get drunk get drunk at night. 8 But since we are of the day, let us be sober, having put on the breastplate of faith and love, and as a helmet, the hope of salvation. 9 For God has not destined us for wrath, but for obtaining salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ, 10 who died for us, so that whether we are awake or asleep, we will live together with Him. 11 Therefore encourage one another and build up one another, just as you also are doing.



6 For after all it is only just for God to repay with affliction those who afflict you, 7 and to give relief to you who are afflicted and to us as well when the Lord Jesus will be revealed from heaven with His mighty angels in flaming fire, 8 dealing out retribution to those who do not know God and to those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus. 9 These will pay the penalty of eternal destruction, away from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power, 10 when He comes to be glorified in His saints on that day, and to be marveled at among all who have believed—for our testimony to you was believed



[Apparently, some Amils must think that the GWTJ also occurs and finishes during this same twinkling of an eye? ]

The GWT is all about sudden and eternal destruction away from the coming presence of the Lord.

How long do you propose it is going to take?

 

[ewq1938]

Revelation 20:4 simply says; those martyrs are brought back to life, NOT given immortality.

Other scripture proves immortality happens at the second coming:

1Co 15:52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
1Co 15:53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.

 

[keras]

Other scripture proves immortality happens at the second coming:

1Co 15:52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
1Co 15:53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.

I have proved many times, that 1 Corinthians 15:50-56, is a prophecy about the GWT Judgment; AFTER the Millennium.
Only then is Death no more and those made immortal will go into Eternity with God.

 

[DavidPT]

One thing is for sure, it occurs the same day the Lord appears according to the scriptures I posted.

Now as to the times and the epochs, brethren, you have no need of anything to be written to you. 2 For you yourselves know full well that the day of the Lord will come just like a thief in the night. 3 While they are saying, “Peace and safety!” then destruction will come upon them suddenly like labor pains upon a woman with child, and they will not escape. 4 But you, brethren, are not in darkness, that the day would overtake you like a thief; 5 for you are all sons of light and sons of day. We are not of night nor of darkness; 6 so then let us not sleep as others do, but let us be alert and sober. 7 For those who sleep do their sleeping at night, and those who get drunk get drunk at night. 8 But since we are of the day, let us be sober, having put on the breastplate of faith and love, and as a helmet, the hope of salvation. 9 For God has not destined us for wrath, but for obtaining salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ, 10 who died for us, so that whether we are awake or asleep, we will live together with Him. 11 Therefore encourage one another and build up one another, just as you also are doing.



6 For after all it is only just for God to repay with affliction those who afflict you, 7 and to give relief to you who are afflicted and to us as well when the Lord Jesus will be revealed from heaven with His mighty angels in flaming fire, 8 dealing out retribution to those who do not know God and to those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus. 9 These will pay the penalty of eternal destruction, away from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power, 10 when He comes to be glorified in His saints on that day, and to be marveled at among all who have believed—for our testimony to you was believed



[Apparently, some Amils must think that the GWTJ also occurs and finishes during this same twinkling of an eye? ]

The GWT is all about sudden and eternal destruction away from the coming presence of the Lord.

How long do you propose it is going to take?

I don't know how long it might involve, meaning any events involving the 2nd coming, but what I do tend to think is this. The reason Amils, maybe not all Amils, insist that all of these events happen in this same twinkling of an eye is in order to not have to deal with any chronology of events. Chonology of events meaning---the 2nd coming happens first, follwed by the dead in Christ rising first, followed by the rapture, followed by Christ and His armies THEN confronting the beast and it's armies, followed by the beast and false prophet getting cast alive into the LOF, while the remnant are slain with the sword of him that sat upon the horse, which sword proceeded out of his mouth: and all the fowls were filled with their flesh.

At this point in the chronology, until Revelation 19:21 is at least fulfilled first, there couldn't possibly be the GWTJ prior to any of those events. No one, neither Premils nor Amils, should argue that the GWTJ precedes the fulfillment of Revelation 19:21. It's obvious that it follows it. Whether it follows it during the 2nd coming events, or a thousand years and a little season later, that is debatable. What should not be debatable is that the GWTJ is after the fulfillment of Revelation 19:21, and not prior to it instead.