Universal Resurrection

[DavidPT]

The same way we do.

After one has already been initially saved, there are only two ways to literally make it to the NHNE after that. And that would be rise from the dead or be raptured. What I mean is, every single person that ends up on the NHNE after the time of the GWTJ, either they were initially raptured at some point, or that they initially bodily rose from the dead at some point. Do you think some animals are also going to be raptured, and that some animals are also going to bodily rise from the dead?

 

[BABerean2]

Yes because that describes the quickness of his return not it being used as a weapon. It clearly says "in flaming fire" which is in regard to himself.

And who would be the mortals present at the time of 2 Thessalonians 1:7-10, who are not obeying the Gospel, but are allowed to survive anyway?

.

 

[jeffweedaman]

After one has already been initially saved, there are only two ways to literally make it to the NHNE after that. And that would be rise from the dead or be raptured.

One event at his appearing to satisfy the living or the dead .
Not 2 ways to get there.

 

[jeffweedaman]

And who would be the mortals present at the time of 2 Thessalonians 1:7-10, who are not obeying the Gospel, but are allowed to survive anyway?

They do not exist.
Those who do not obey the Gospel suffer eternal separation. All of them.

 

[Timtofly]

How do you explain Matthew 25:31-46 then? That passage clearly shows believers and unbelievers being judged at the same time when Christ comes in His glory. I have seen premils try to explain how Matthew 25:31-46 can fit with premil and I have yet to see a premil give an interpretation of that passage that I find to be reasonable at all. Not even close.

31 When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory:

32 And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats:

33 And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left.

This is all that us needed to know what is happening. These are only His chosen people the House of Jacob. They are called out of all the Nations. They are living humans, not dead ones. This is the final Harvest of living breathing Israelites. Not the church, and not unsaved Gentiles. Some of Israel will be sheep and some will be goats.

Then will be the harvest of the Gentiles. The tares will be gathered and burned. There will still be some from every Nation to populate the earth in new incorruptible, resurrected bodies.

The church once glorified will no longer pro create. The 6th Seal Second Coming is the completion of the church. The church is forever with the Lord in the temple of God, Paradise.

Why are the parables of Jesus which are written symbolically clearer than Revelation 20 which specifies a 1000 year reign of Christ? These parables apply to the Second Coming more so than they did in the first century. Have we forgotten that Jesus is the Good Shepherd especially during the final harvest of the Trumpets and the Thunders. God is not going to turn away living souls in corruptible bodies just because the church is complete and glorified. God took out a remnant of Jews and allowed them to start the church for all humanity. The same will happen after the church is taken away, to allow for humans to live on earth. It does not matter if there is 1000 years or not. People are still going to populate earth as well, like the church has already populated Paradise. The church will not be found on earth until the New Jerusalem descends from her current location.

Claiming there is no 1000 years does not change that fact. John just lets us know God has 1000 years set aside to populate the earth without sin and a sin nature, during this current reality.

 

[BABerean2]

These are only His chosen people the House of Jacob. They are called out of all the Nations. They are living humans, not dead ones. This is the final Harvest of living breathing Israelites. Not the church, and not unsaved Gentiles. Some of Israel will be sheep and some will be goats.

You are ignoring what Paul said about genealogies in the scripture below, in an attempt to create some form of Dual Covenant Theology based on race.

1Ti_1:4 Neither give heed to fables and endless genealogies, which minister questions, rather than godly edifying which is in faith: so do.

Tit_3:9 But avoid foolish questions, and genealogies, and contentions, and strivings about the law; for they are unprofitable and vain.


The most important genealogy in the Bible is found in the first verse of the New Testament.
Paul confirms this fact in Galatians 3:16.

There is no Plan B of salvation outside of the New Covenant Church of Jesus Christ.

.

 

[DavidPT]

One event at his appearing to satisfy the living or the dead .
Not 2 ways to get there.

Whether it is one event or not, is irrelevant. I'm just pointing out that everyone that makes it to the NHNE after the time of the GWTJ, either that person was initially raptured at some point, or that that person initially rose from the dead at some point, and that you indicated that animals make it onto the NHNE the same way we do. There is not going to be one single person living on the NHNE after the time of the GWTJ, that wasn't either raptured or rose from the dead. That should mean if animals make it onto the NHNE the same we do, some animals are raptured, some animals bodily rise from the dead. This discussion I'm having with you is about animals on the NHNE, and now you appear to be avoiding that discussion altogether, though initially you weren't avoiding it.

 

[Timtofly]

John 5:28 “Do not be amazed at this, for a thousand year period of time is coming when all who are in their graves will hear his voice 29 and come out—those who have done what is good will rise to live, and those who have done what is evil will rise to be condemned.

I don't find this passage to make any sense when worded this way, but this is how you understand it. I couldn't disagree more.

That is not what most say. Most would say the hour has already come, or at least the hour of the Cross was that hour.

25 Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live.

We know that the church was raised that day at the Cross, but not the dead. They are still not raised. That hour is an ongoing experience, like we have a graduating class each year, or there is baseball each year. Not just one single event of baseball or graduation at the end of time.

It is wrong to place Revelation 20:4 any where in time, but only immediately after the battle of Armageddon. It is a first resurrection that is a physical resurrection to an incorruptible body, just like all throughout time before it. That ongoing hour that started with Lazarus (now is), happened at the Cross, and happens every time a soul of a believer leaves their corruptible body for their permanent incorruptible body in Paradise.

God is only giving the church their permanent citizenship in Paradise, the inheritance is immediate after the Cross, the hour that came. The event will wrap up at the end of existence at the GWT for the dead to be cast into the Lake of Fire.

Any one who preaches any of Hebrews has to appreciate it is now, already, life everlasting for the church. The whole reason amil think the millennium is now. For the church citizenship has been ongoing, not some future dream of bodiless souls. Hebrews never says dead souls have to wait, because the Cross completed many things for those in Christ in Paradise. Not so much for those on earth who never accept their citizenship in Paradise.

They still remain physically dead for yet another 1000 years after Armageddon. Unless you can prove there is no future FP and future image beast called the AC, and they were thrown into the Lake of Fire in the first century. The Resurrection of Revelation 20:4 has not happened yet either. That last resurrection of souls physically into incorruptible bodies can only happen after a 42 month period where Satan, the FP, and the beast are in charge, and there is no church present. The church is not present, because the final harvest removed all souls from their corruptible sin filled nature bodies. Satan only gets the last of humanity on earth, not the harvest itself. Those left are removed from the Lamb's book of life and given the mark of the beast, meaning they have ceased to be humanity as God intended and are living dead people to the max. They do enter the Second Death, unlike those who are resurrected and given incorruptible bodies that cannot experience the Second Death.

Given the mark seems to me the judgment of eternal damnation on souls that have not even physically died. That is why they are expressed as not even in the Lamb's book of life prior to physical death. During this last 42 months, the decision is to have your head cut off, instead of taking the mark and being removed from the Lamb's book of life. Because that is what Revelation 20:4 says: "and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands" the contrast is loosing one's head to remain in the Lamb's book of life, the symbolism of being beheaded for the witness of Jesus and for the Word of God. Jesus and the Word are the same and they represent the Lamb's book of life. The alternative is being removed from the Lamb's book of life and accepting the mark in solidarity to Satan's will of eternal damnation. The last humans being destroyed physically at Armageddon, not to ever live again until the GWT.

Yet you say, they are destroyed and immediately appear at the GWT. This is God's Word: "But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished." This thousand years cannot even start until all are killed at Armageddon. And all those beheaded are resurrected. Where is proof in Scripture Armageddon and the final harvest run by Satan happened in the first century, immediately followed by the GWT. Or proof all of Adam's flesh and blood are dead in the first century, and we are sin free in incorruptible bodies for this last indefinite, 1991 years.

 

[Timtofly]

So, it is when He comes in His glory with His angels that the saved will inherit the kingdom of the NHNE and the unsaved will be cast into everlasting fire (Matt 25:41), which is a clear parallel to Revelation 20:15. This means that His coming is after the thousand years since we all agree that we will inherit the NHNE after the thousand years and the unsaved will be cast into the lake of fire after the thousand year. Once again, in my opinion, a premil has failed to explain how Matthew 25:31-46 can be reconciled with the premil view.

The sheep and goats only represent the house of Jacob. Even the New Covenant does not change this fact. Works which this passage is pointing to is not a reward system for the church. There are no goats in the church. There are goats in the House of Jacob. Jesus tells us that in this parable. This is not the judgment of the Nations either. The Nations are symbolized by wheat and tares. Even symbolism has distinct boundaries and is not lumped into universalism as many try to do. Mixing symbolism and fact together is not an issue for literalist. Literalist do not dismiss symbolism as alledged. Those who only symbolize every thing do not seem to separate fact from just making stuff up. Then when literal facts are presented, it is seen as being made up. Sorry, but making up more symbolism on top of symbolism is making up symbolism with other symbolism. At what point will people accept the literal facts? No where in Scripture is there a universal resurrection of all humanity at one single moment of time. Proof of that was the hour when Jesus was raised from the dead in an incorruptible physical body. Most of humanity was not even born yet. That is the literal fact.

 

[Timtofly]

I was. The hour/time that is coming which you believe He is referring to in John 5:28-29 covers a thousand plus years, so that's why I replaced "the hour is coming" with "a thousand year period of time is coming" to show how you understand it.

Still not the same hour. The hour was already at the time of Christ. Verse 25 says, "now is." The Cross was already going to happen soon. It was a reality. Bodies were already resurrected at the Cross. Notwithstanding the example we have of Jesus literally calling Lazarus out of the grave in front of many witness as living proof. Unless that was just symbolic figurative writing like the book of Revelation.

 

[Timtofly]

You are ignoring what Paul said about genealogies in the scripture below, in an attempt to create some form of Dual Covenant Theology based on race.

1Ti_1:4 Neither give heed to fables and endless genealogies, which minister questions, rather than godly edifying which is in faith: so do.

Tit_3:9 But avoid foolish questions, and genealogies, and contentions, and strivings about the law; for they are unprofitable and vain.


The most important genealogy in the Bible is found in the first verse of the New Testament.
Paul confirms this fact in Galatians 3:16.

There is no Plan B of salvation outside of the New Covenant Church of Jesus Christ.

And you are making citizenship in Paradise works only and not by the Atonement of the Cross. Matthew 25 is the harvest of living physical bodies, not a resurrection of dead souls. Matthew 25 is not universal, and not about the church one bit. If you claim that, you are changing the entire Scripture of God's Word in regards to the Atonement.

 

[iamlamad]

Absolutely incorrect.

Messiah does not even arrive until after 7 and 62 weeks pass.

25 So you are to know and discern that from the issuing of a decree to restore and rebuild Jerusalem until Messiah the Prince there will be seven weeks and sixty-two weeks;

Messiah must be anointed after 7 and 62 weeks.
This clearly puts him in the 70th week to accomplish the work the Father gave him to do. This kick started the age of his amazing grace he now shows to all nations.



24 “Seventy weeks have been decreed for your people and your holy city,
to finish the transgression,
to make an end of sin,
to make atonement for iniquity,
to bring in everlasting righteousness,
to seal up vision and prophecy
and to anoint the most holy place.


That clearly puts the 70th week in the past if you believe your sins have been washed away clean so you can be blessed with the gift of his Holy Spirit.

Go back and read the text again: you are using imagination rather than reading it the way it is written. Notice that after He is "cut off" then and only then does Daniel write of the 70th week. In other words, Daniel - inspired by the Holy Spirit - inserted a GAP between the 69 weeks and the 70th and included events between.

Messiah does not even arrive until after 7 and 62 weeks pass. Nowhere does Daniel use the word "arrive."

 

[BABerean2]

Go back and read the text again: you are using imagination rather than reading it the way it is written. Notice that after He is "cut off" then and only then does Daniel write of the 70th week. In other words, Daniel - inspired by the Holy Spirit - inserted a GAP between the 69 weeks and the 70th and included events between.

Messiah does not even arrive until after 7 and 62 weeks pass. Nowhere does Daniel use the word "arrive."

If I agree to paint your house "after" 69 weeks, it will not be painted until the 70th week or later.

In Romans 1:16 Paul said the Gospel was taken "first" to the Jews. When was this period of time, and how long did it last?

Part of the answer is found in Matthew 10:5-7, when Christ commanded that the Gospel be taken only to Israel. This is confirmed in Acts of the Apostles 10:36-38.

In Galatians 1:14-18 Paul reveals he did not go up to see Peter until at least 3 years after his conversion. During that time the Gospel continued to go mainly to Israel.

The above reveal a time period of about 7 years when the Gospel was taken "first" to Daniel's people, before Paul took the Gospel to the Gentiles.

.

 

[jeffweedaman]

Go back and read the text again: you are using imagination rather than reading it the way it is written. Notice that after He is "cut off" then and only then does Daniel write of the 70th week. In other words, Daniel - inspired by the Holy Spirit - inserted a GAP between the 69 weeks and the 70th and included events between.

Messiah does not even arrive until after 7 and 62 weeks pass. Nowhere does Daniel use the word "arrive."

Daniel uses the word until the Messiah.
Jesus was clearly anointed as that Messiah at the age of 30 when he was baptized and anointed with the Holy Spirit AFTER 7 and 62 weeks had passed. Go back and read the text again.


25 So you are to know and discern that from the issuing of a decree to restore and rebuild Jerusalem until Messiah the Prince there will be seven weeks and sixty-two weeks;



It was from that point that he went about accomplishing the work he was born to do.
He accomplished the atonement through the shedding of his own blood in the 70th week.

He did not fail, he was victorious.


Jn 17
4 I glorified You on the earth by accomplishing the work which You have given Me to do. 5 And now You, Father, glorify Me together with Yourself, with the glory which I had with You before the world existed.



He saved us, atoned for us and put an end to the power of sin ,transgression and iniquity.



Jn 17 cont...
6 “I have revealed Your name to the men whom You gave Me out of the world; they were Yours and You gave them to Me, and they have followed Your word. 7 Now they have come to know that everything which You have given Me is from You; 8 for the words which You gave Me I have given to them; and they received them and truly understood that I came forth from You, and they believed that You sent Me. 9 I ask on their behalf; I do not ask on behalf of the world, but on the behalf of those whom You have given Me, because they are Yours; 10 and all things that are Mine are Yours, and Yours are Mine; and I have been glorified in them. 11 I am no longer going to be in the world; and yet they themselves are in the world, and I am coming to You. Holy Father, keep them in Your name, the name which You have given Me, so that they may be one just as We are. 12 While I was with them, I was keeping them in Your name, which You have given Me; and I guarded them, and not one of them perished except the son of destruction, so that the Scripture would be fulfilled.


13 But now I am coming to You; and these things I speak in the world so that they may have My joy made full in themselves. 14 I have given them Your word; and the world has hated them because they are not of the world, just as I am not of the world. 15 I am not asking You to take them out of the world, but to keep them away from the evil one. 16 They are not of the world, just as I am not of the world. 17 Sanctify them in the truth; Your word is truth. 18 Just as You sent Me into the world, I also sent them into the world. 19 And for their sakes I sanctify Myself, so that they themselves also may be sanctified in truth.

20 “I am not asking on behalf of these alone, but also for those who believe in Me through their word, 21 that they may all be one; just as You, Father, are in Me and I in You, that they also may be in Us, so that the world may believe that You sent Me.


22 The glory which You have given Me I also have given to them, so that they may be one, just as We are one; 23 I in them and You in Me, that they may be perfected in unity, so that the world may know that You sent Me, and You loved them, just as You loved Me. 24 Father, I desire that they also, whom You have given Me, be with Me where I am, so that they may see My glory which You have given Me, for You loved Me before the foundation of the world.

 

[iamlamad]

Daniel uses the word until the Messiah.
Jesus was clearly anointed as that Messiah at the age of 30 when he was baptized and anointed with the Holy Spirit AFTER 7 and 62 weeks had passed. Go back and read the text again.


25 So you are to know and discern that from the issuing of a decree to restore and rebuild Jerusalem until Messiah the Prince there will be seven weeks and sixty-two weeks;



It was from that point that he went about accomplishing the work he was born to do.
He accomplished the atonement through the shedding of his own blood in the 70th week.

He did not fail, he was victorious.


Jn 17
4 I glorified You on the earth by accomplishing the work which You have given Me to do. 5 And now You, Father, glorify Me together with Yourself, with the glory which I had with You before the world existed.



He saved us, atoned for us and put an end to the power of sin ,transgression and iniquity.



Jn 17 cont...
6 “I have revealed Your name to the men whom You gave Me out of the world; they were Yours and You gave them to Me, and they have followed Your word. 7 Now they have come to know that everything which You have given Me is from You; 8 for the words which You gave Me I have given to them; and they received them and truly understood that I came forth from You, and they believed that You sent Me. 9 I ask on their behalf; I do not ask on behalf of the world, but on the behalf of those whom You have given Me, because they are Yours; 10 and all things that are Mine are Yours, and Yours are Mine; and I have been glorified in them. 11 I am no longer going to be in the world; and yet they themselves are in the world, and I am coming to You. Holy Father, keep them in Your name, the name which You have given Me, so that they may be one just as We are. 12 While I was with them, I was keeping them in Your name, which You have given Me; and I guarded them, and not one of them perished except the son of destruction, so that the Scripture would be fulfilled.


13 But now I am coming to You; and these things I speak in the world so that they may have My joy made full in themselves. 14 I have given them Your word; and the world has hated them because they are not of the world, just as I am not of the world. 15 I am not asking You to take them out of the world, but to keep them away from the evil one. 16 They are not of the world, just as I am not of the world. 17 Sanctify them in the truth; Your word is truth. 18 Just as You sent Me into the world, I also sent them into the world. 19 And for their sakes I sanctify Myself, so that they themselves also may be sanctified in truth.

20 “I am not asking on behalf of these alone, but also for those who believe in Me through their word, 21 that they may all be one; just as You, Father, are in Me and I in You, that they also may be in Us, so that the world may believe that You sent Me.


22 The glory which You have given Me I also have given to them, so that they may be one, just as We are one; 23 I in them and You in Me, that they may be perfected in unity, so that the world may know that You sent Me, and You loved them, just as You loved Me. 24 Father, I desire that they also, whom You have given Me, be with Me where I am, so that they may see My glory which You have given Me, for You loved Me before the foundation of the world.

Sorry, but what you have written does not fit the text Daniel wrote. Let's look again:

26 And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, it does not say he is born either before or after; it only says he will be cut off after the 69th week. Neither does it say "IN" the 70th.

but not for himself: He died for the sins of the world.

and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined. WHEN? WHEN did the people destroy the sanctuary? Now we know it was 70 AD. Has Daniel written of the start of the 70th week yet? NO! We are still AFTER the 69 but BEFORE the 70th. Wait for it.........

27 And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: Finally Daniel gets to the start of the 70th week, AFTER the 70 AD events.

and in the midst of the week Now Daniel has gotten to the midpoint of the week.

he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate. And finally he tells us the week will finish with desolations.

This is the way Daniel wrote it, under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit. God Himself inspired Daniel to write in a GAP. Why? Because God waited for Israel to Accept Jesus as their Messiah as a nation, and they refused, so God STOPPED the Jewish clock and sent Paul after the Gentiles. The church of today is as a INSERT or Parenthesis inserted into Jewish time. The moment after the rapture, TIME will go right back to where it was when Paul was sent to the Gentiles. That is why Daniel tells us the 70th week is for HIS people.

 

[jeffweedaman]

Sorry, but what you have written does not fit the text Daniel wrote. Let's look again:

26 And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, it does not say he is born either before or after; it only says he will be cut off after the 69th week. Neither does it say "IN" the 70th.

but not for himself: He died for the sins of the world.

and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined. WHEN? WHEN did the people destroy the sanctuary? Now we know it was 70 AD. Has Daniel written of the start of the 70th week yet? NO! We are still AFTER the 69 but BEFORE the 70th. Wait for it.........

27 And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: Finally Daniel gets to the start of the 70th week, AFTER the 70 AD events.

and in the midst of the week Now Daniel has gotten to the midpoint of the week.

he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate. And finally he tells us the week will finish with desolations.

This is the way Daniel wrote it, under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit. God Himself inspired Daniel to write in a GAP. Why? Because God waited for Israel to Accept Jesus as their Messiah as a nation, and they refused, so God STOPPED the Jewish clock and sent Paul after the Gentiles. The church of today is as a INSERT or Parenthesis inserted into Jewish time. The moment after the rapture, TIME will go right back to where it was when Paul was sent to the Gentiles. That is why Daniel tells us the 70th week is for HIS people.

What does " until Messiah " mean to you after 7 and 62 weeks?

This has to mean that Jesus is anointed afterwards .
Until Messiah cannot mean he arrived and did nothing lol.
He arrived and accomplished everything he was sent to do.
He died for the sins of the world which is clearly a thing of the past

 

[iamlamad]

What does " until Messiah " mean to you after 7 and 62 weeks?

This has to mean that Jesus is anointed afterwards .
Until Messiah cannot mean he arrived and did nothing lol.
He arrived and accomplished everything he was sent to do.
He died for the sins of the world which is clearly a thing of the past

The book, "The Coming Prince" explains it quite well. God told the Jews that they could count for 173,880 days and they should then SEE their Messiah. They saw Him, but did not recognize Him as their Messiah. He lived and died inside the gap, not inside the 70th week - which is still in our future.