Universal reconciliation

[Der Alte]

Yes, when I realized that much of our view on hell where created by theologians in the west who didn't know know Greek it was easy to see
that just going with western thought wouldn't lead to the way the eastern church saw things.
While I did some research, I basically went back to that the Spirit of God spoke to me when I was 12, 13 and 14 before I started reading theology in Christian books.

Please see my post #1068. above. documenting from Jewish sources that the Jews before and during the time of Jesus believed in a place of eternal, unending fiery torment which they called sheol and Gehinnom.

 

[Hillsage]

Its seems that in order to believe in universal reconciliation, one has to add some unspecified future age that is not in scripture in order to get around what Jesus says in Matthew 12:32.

Not in scripture you say? Maybe you should have asked how we 'get around it' IF it's not in scripture.

EPH 2:7 That in the ages to come he might shew the exceeding riches of his grace in his kindness toward us through Christ Jesus. 8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

So, as you can see, it is in scripture. And it is written in a book which was written 63 years after Jesus said 'the age he was in and the 'ONE' following'. So as you can see Chriliman, you just needed to study scripture more closely. And then you'd also have to ask who God is going to show "the exceeding riches of his grace" for salvation to...in the ages to come. You of course claim his grace for salvation in verse 8, in this age...along with all who were saved this side of glory.

Its seems likely that anyone who commits the unpardonable sin, is telling God that they don't want to exist, since He is God, therefore God removes them from existence, which would mean that all who want to be saved through Jesus Christ will get to, but not that all who've ever existed will be saved.

If they were never "drawn, called, chosen, predestined, ordained to believe" BY GOD to believe in this age then they were kind of left to be just as God expected them to be IMO. But Jesus died for the forgiveness of the sins of everybody didn't he? So it's really just up to God as to when their time comes. And if it's when "every knee shall bow and every tongue shall confess that Jesus is Lord' so be it.

Thanks for your consideration of my thoughts and questions

Hope this helped

 

[Hillsage]

Be aware that I don't give a fig for what the Jews believed then or now, and certainly not the Jewish Encyclopedia. It was quite enough to slog through the theo-illogical mess of the KJV. Further, do you suppose that I have not dealt with each of the verses you quoted, from a UR perspective?

If you think about it, didn't Jesus slog through the ignorance of the Jewish leaders in 'real time'. And then we have the Sadducees, who didn't even believe there would be a resurrection...Hell-o????

 

[jerry kelso]

You are assuming Hell against all evidence, for it is just not there, except as a mental overlay on top of every text. Why do you assume the fire of God is for punishment and torture, and not for purification? A study of what God says Himself about His fire demonstrates clearly that it is for cleansing and purification. In this sense, God even describes Himself as soap.

I am a newcomer to this forum, but not to this topic, for I studied it in the SHT (Standard Hell Text, aka, KJV) for over a year - to resolve this one question in my mind. Outside the KJV, I found that Hell came into Christianity from pagan sources, and it goes far deeper than the Greek Hades or the Latin Infernum.

Anyway, do you really expect to topple the well-developed concept of Universal Reconciliation by quoting a single "proof" text? Funny! OTOH, I have examined every book, every chapter, and every verse of the KJV to come to the conclusions I have.

Further, do you really grasp what I have said? If the text you quoted proves Hell, then Jesus is sending countless numbers of those cursed souls to everlasting punishment, along with bits of the Spirit of His Father. Absurd and blasphemous.

lazarusshort,

1. You believe too much in humanism and it is conjecture and opinion on your part to believe that hell is just for purification. There is no scripture that backs that up even though there are scriptures that many use to try and proof that. There is no scripture that says those that go to hell have the Spirit of Father God. Everyone that has not the Spirit of God are antichrist.

2. Now if you want to have proper debate and rebuttal of the scriptures on UR and purification in hell such as purgatory then I will be gladly talk to you.

3. Just because you have examined all the scriptures to come to your conclusions doesn't mean a thing if you have the wrong hermeneutics to be able to rightly divide the word.

4. Fire is about purification but that doesn't mean that is the only definition in every context in the scriptures. Go to seed on one point fits all can lead to tunnel vision and will never see the daylight of truth no matter how well meaning a person may be. Jerry Kelso

 

[Chriliman]

Not in scripture you say? Maybe you should have asked how we 'get around it' IF it's not in scripture.

EPH 2:7 That in the ages to come he might shew the exceeding riches of his grace in his kindness toward us through Christ Jesus. 8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

So, as you can see, it is in scripture. And it is written in a book which was written 63 years after Jesus said 'the age he was in and the 'ONE' following'. So as you can see Chriliman, you just needed to study scripture more closely. And then you'd also have to ask who God is going to show "the exceeding riches of his grace" for salvation to...in the ages to come. You of course claim his grace for salvation in verse 8, in this age...along with all who were saved this side of glory.


If they were never "drawn, called, chosen, predestined, ordained to believe" BY GOD to believe in this age then they were kind of left to be just as God expected them to be IMO. But Jesus died for the forgiveness of the sins of everybody didn't he? So it's really just up to God as to when their time comes. And if it's when "every knee shall bow and every tongue shall confess that Jesus is Lord' so be it.

Hope this helped

That was helpful, thank you. I still don't understand the point of mentioning an unforgivable sin, if everyone who ever sinned is going to be saved and forgiven anyway, which is the claim of universalism, right? Or does universalism take into account the unforgivable sin and admit that some may not be saved if they commit that sin?

 

[Job8]

It is not enough to multiply verses containing the word "Hell." To understand, you must dig deeper and see the meanings of the words translated as "Hell." Given that and a knowledge of pagan mythology, and everything falls into place.

What does pagan mythology have to do with God's truth? If there is any correspondence, it is because that mythology was derived from truth long before it became a pagan belief. The final authority is the teaching of Christ -- who is God -- on eternal Hell. And there is no question that He taught that (1) Hell (the Lake of Fire) was created for the Devil and his angels and (2) the damnation of Hell is for those who refuse to believe and obey the Gospel.

And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature. He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned. (Mark 16:15,16).

 

[Hillsage]

That was helpful, thank you. I still don't understand the point of mentioning an unforgivable sin, if everyone who ever sinned is going to be saved and forgiven anyway, which is the claim of universalism, right?

I don't understand the mentioning of it either. And it bothers me that one gospel leaves out "this age or the age to come". But it does. And that's the one 'eternal hellers' are most likely to quote...which just seems to be disingenuous of them IMO. And Christian Universalism or Universal Reconciliation doesn't believe that everyone is 'going to be forgiven'. We believe the scriptures which say Jesus died for all and the sins of all were forgiven. And us accepting or not accepting doesn't negate His forgiveness for us. No more than it was negated by those who crucified Him on that day. The day in which He also forgave them without their repentance.

2CO 5:19 that is, in Christ God WAS reconciling the world to himself, not counting their trespasses against them, and entrusting to us the message of reconciliation.
Romans 5:10 For if while we were enemies we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, now that we are reconciled, shall we be saved by his life.

So we believe everybody's sins were forgiven on the cross and our ministry is to tell people that Jesus died for your sins and you are forgiven. So reconciliation is half done already. But whether we accept his forgiveness or not doesn't change our state of forgiveness on God's part. It just a question of when God will "draw, call, predestine, ordain us to believe" so that we can be saved in 'this life' by the life of Christ in us.

Or does universalism take into account the unforgivable sin and admit that some may not be saved if they commit that sin?

No, we just believe translations which are consistent to the Greek but not to the 'doctrines of men' since the . And anyone who commits that sin will just have to go through a season of fire and purging that those who didn't commit 'that sin' won't have to go through. That is my assumption at this point anyway.[/quote]

 

[anonymouswho]

Hello everyone. Is it okay if I join this conversation?

I want to discuss Matthew 25:31-46. The Christians believe that Yeshua is talking about believers (the sheep) on the right, and unbelievers (the goats) on the left. However, there are a few problems with this interpretation. First, Yeshua tells the sheep that when he was hungry they fed him, ect. Then it says concerning the sheep...

"Then shall the righteous answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, and fed thee? or thirsty, and gave thee drink?" Matt. 25:37

When we follow Yeshua, we are considered his disciples because he teaches us. I would say if not all, a very significant amount of Christians have either read this parable or heard it. If Yeshua tells you "When I was hungry you fed me", why would any of you ask "When did I feed you"? You already know the answer!

The second problem with this interpretation is that Yeshua says...

"And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me." Matt. 25:40

The Christians claim that the brethren are also the sheep, though of a different class. I don't see how this fits with the parable very well. First, we have sheep and goats. These are animals, although we understand them to be humans. Then, we have a human king that says whatever the animal sheep did for his human brothers, was also done unto him. Why would Yeshua use two different species to indicate one particular group? Not saying it's impossible, but it makes the parable very confusing.

Finally, we have Matthew 25:41. The problem lies with aionios, which I see you have all been discussing. Please consider the following verses:

"Now to him that is of power to stablish you according to my gospel, and the preaching of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery, which was kept secret since the world began (aionios)" Romans 16:25

"In hope of eternal life, which God, that cannot lie, promised before the world began (aionios)" Titus 1:2

It would be impossible to translate aionios as eternal in these verses. It wouldn't make any sense, because there cannot be a time "since eternity" or "before eternity". Therefore, there is at least a 1% chance that aionios does not mean eternal (I don't believe in eternity at all, but we're discussing probability here). If there is a 1% chance that God is not going to torture and burn anybody's flesh forever and ever (whatever that means), then based on: God's desire that all be saved, God's ability to make this happen, and God's character of Love, mercy, and forgivness- it is unreasonable to insist that aionios kolasis (age-enduring chastisement) means eternal punishment.

Aionios is the adjective form of aion, which means "age". For anyone that doesn't know, an adjective is a descriptive word. If I say...

"The (definite article) red (adjective) ball (noun) bounced (verb)"

...the adjective is simply a description of the noun it is associated to. But the theologians are crafty. They claim that aionios actually means "timelessness" or "agelessness" because these words are also adjectives. This makes no sense at all. When you add the word "less" to another word, how does it take the opposite definition to mean "an infinite amount"? Consider the words homeless, jobless, careless, ect...A homeless man does not have a never ending amount of homes! If something is priceless, it doesn't mean the price of it is an infinite amount of dollars. It means there is no price that would be accepted.

There is not a single word in Koine Greek or Ancient Hebrew that means forever, eternity, never, or everlasting. Not even aidios. I don't believe anyone has any clue what this word means. I believe it means "imperceptible", but there is not near enough evidence to say what it means.

Okay, that's enough for now. I look forward to discussing this with you all. Thank you and God bless.

 

[Lazarus Short]

This is an interesting topic. A question that always pops into my mind is: What about the unpardonable sin? If universal reconciliation is true, then why would Jesus even mention an unpardonable sin?

Matthew 12:32
"Anyone who speaks a word against the Son of Man will be forgiven, but anyone who speaks against the Holy Spirit will not be forgiven, either in this age or in the age to come."

Jesus says "either in this age or in the age to come". Are we in the "age to come" right now or is it still to come? If we're in the age to come right now then if anyone commits the unpardonable sin in this age they will not be forgiven, but will they be forgiven in some unspecified future age? If not then universal reconciliation is not true.

Its seems that in order to believe in universal reconciliation, one has to add some unspecified future age that is not in scripture in order to get around what Jesus says in Matthew 12:32.

Its seems likely that anyone who commits the unpardonable sin, is telling God that they don't want to exist, since He is God, therefore God removes them from existence, which would mean that all who want to be saved through Jesus Christ will get to, but not that all who've ever existed will be saved.

Thanks for your consideration of my thoughts and questions

Yes, Jesus said this age or the age to come. I find it somewhat sketchy, the ages to come, and many divide the ages to come differently, but consider I Corinthians 15:23-26. Paul writes of what he calls "the end," when Jesus delivers His Kingdom to the Father, a time when death has been destroyed. With death destroyed, how can anyone then be dead and/or in Hell? As Paul would say, it is excluded. Surely any sins which were previously unpardonable are pardoned by this point. A little further on, in I Corinthians 15:28, we see that God will be All in all, and how can that happen unless all have been saved, glorified, filled with the full measure of the Seven Spirits of God, and fully forgiven?

 

[Lazarus Short]

Jesus was a Jew, all 12 of the disciples were Jews, virtually all the people that Jesus spoke to and ministered to during His earthly walk were Jews. But you reject and ignore what those Jews believed about sheol and Ge hinnom, which they understood to be a place of eternal, unending punishment, and concoct some imaginary connection to pagan mythology. You'll have to explain and show proof how the Christian view on hell came from pagan mythology and not from the Jews since Christianity came out of Judaism.

OK, but since you characterize my view as "imaginary," I'll assume your mind is made up, though it's obvious you haven't done your homework. First off, I don't give a lot of weight to what the Jews of Jesus' time thought about this or that, because they had a Spirit of Religion, just like a lot of folks today who (IMHO) make Hell into an idol. On to the mythology - the real gem I found was in the mythology of the pagan tribes of northern Europe, many of whom believed in a goddess/ogress by the name of Hel. Her realm was an underworld also known as "Hel" or "Helheim." So it falls out that "Hel" is pagan, but "Hell" is Christian. Really?

 

[Lazarus Short]

If you think about it, didn't Jesus slog through the ignorance of the Jewish leaders in 'real time'. And then we have the Sadducees, who didn't even believe there would be a resurrection...Hell-o????

...and that is why they were so Sad, You See. I'm sorry, did I press a hot button?

 

[Lazarus Short]

lazarusshort,

1. You believe too much in humanism and it is conjecture and opinion on your part to believe that hell is just for purification. There is no scripture that backs that up even though there are scriptures that many use to try and proof that. There is no scripture that says those that go to hell have the Spirit of Father God. Everyone that has not the Spirit of God are antichrist.

2. Now if you want to have proper debate and rebuttal of the scriptures on UR and purification in hell such as purgatory then I will be gladly talk to you.

3. Just because you have examined all the scriptures to come to your conclusions doesn't mean a thing if you have the wrong hermeneutics to be able to rightly divide the word.

4. Fire is about purification but that doesn't mean that is the only definition in every context in the scriptures. Go to seed on one point fits all can lead to tunnel vision and will never see the daylight of truth no matter how well meaning a person may be. Jerry Kelso

1. How do you connect what I say to humanism? Saying there is no scripture to back something up is almost patently false. I arrived at the conclusion that the fire of God (not Hell) is to purify simply because I kept bumping up against it. I did not begin with that idea.

2. I don't want to debate you. I broadcast my seeds and move on.

3. Well, you imply that I don't rightly divide the word. Hermeneutics? Brother, I read through the KJV, comparing text to text, using my common sense, Strong's/Young's, the Oxford English Dictionary, online interlinear Bibles, and a few other Bible translations. Too much scholarship is infected with the lie of Hell.

4. Yeah, well, I do admit in my manuscript when my case is weak or a text does not go my way. UR is not 100% but it is so much closer to the mark than the Hell Theory. Sadly, you keep implying that I am way off somewhere in error, but as I have said, I took up the KJV to see if Hell was so, like a good Berean.

 

[dayhiker]

Please see my post #1068. above. documenting from Jewish sources that the Jews before and during the time of Jesus believed in a place of eternal, unending fiery torment which they called sheol and Gehinnom.

I have read quite a bit of what the Jews recorded before and after Jesus. What I have learned is that when someone quotes these and leaves the impression that the Jews were monolith in their views are very wrong as there were often several different views the Jews held that they loved to debate and discuss. So most views today can quote Jewish sources and say the Jews of Jesus' time supported their view.

My view is that people who haven't repented will go to hell till they repent and just as in Jesus' day and today God loves them and will forgive anyone who repents when ever they repent.

 

[Lazarus Short]

What does pagan mythology have to do with God's truth? If there is any correspondence, it is because that mythology was derived from truth long before it became a pagan belief. The final authority is the teaching of Christ -- who is God -- on eternal Hell. And there is no question that He taught that (1) Hell (the Lake of Fire) was created for the Devil and his angels and (2) the damnation of Hell is for those who refuse to believe and obey the Gospel.

And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature. He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned. (Mark 16:15,16).

Here we go again, assuming Hell in proving Hell. Did you not notice in the Revelation that (in the words of the KJV) both Death and Hell are at some point cast into the Lake of Fire? If the LoF is Hell, how can it be cast into itself? This is what happens with the use of "proof" texts taken out of their wider context. Maybe you've heard that "Text without Context is Pretext"? No, the Lake of Fire is NOT Hell, and Revelation 20:14 should read "death and the grave," as too many words have been translated according to doctrine in the KJV, rather than according to the meaning of said words.

Now as to your question on pagan mythology, it is not a subject I relish, but necessary to see where the Hell theology really came from. We find that the Greeks had Hades, the Romans had Infernum, and the pagans of northern Europe had Hel. It's all a matter of pagan converts bringing their religious baggage along with them.

 

[anonymouswho]

If this is "research" it is faulty.
Nine language sources cited. Fourteen total references! 1. NAS Hebrew-Aramaic and Greek Dictionaries, 2. Thayer’s Lexicon, 3. Vine’s Expository of Biblical Words, 3 references, 4. Louw-Nida Greek English Lexicon of the NT based on Semantic Domains, 2 references, 5. Theological Dictionary of the New Testament, 6. Abridged Greek lexicon, Liddell-Scott, 7. Enhanced Strong’s Lexicon, 3 references, 8. Bauer, Arndt, Gingrich, Danker Greek English Lexicon of the NT and other Early Christian Literature, 9. Concise Greek-English Dictionary of the NT.

Aion, Aionios and the lexicons:
166. αιωνιος aionios; from 165; agelong, eternal:— eternal(66), eternity(1), forever(1).

Thomas, Robert L., Th.D., General Editor, New American Standard Hebrew-Aramaic and Greek Dictionaries,​

166 aionios- αιωνιος
1) without beginning and end, what has always been and always will be
2) without beginning
3) without end, never to cease, everlasting

---Thayers​

2. αιωνιος aionios [166] "describes duration, either undefined but not endless, as in <Rom. 16:25; 2 Tim. 1:9; Titus 1:2>; or undefined because endless as in <Rom. 16:26>, and the other sixty-six places in the NT.
"The predominant meaning of αιωνιος , that in which it is used everywhere in the NT, save the places noted above, may be seen in <2 Cor. 4:18>, where it is set in contrast with proskairos, lit., `for a season,' and in <Philem. 15>, where only in the NT it is used without a noun. Moreover it is used of persons and things which are in their nature endless, as, e. g., of God, <Rom. 16:26>; of His power, <1 Tim. 6:16>, and of His glory, <1 Pet. 5:10>; of the Holy Spirit, <Heb. 9:14>; of the redemption effected by Christ, <Heb. 9:12>, and of the consequent salvation of men, <5:9>, as well as of His future rule, <2 Pet. 1:11>, which is elsewhere declared to be without end, <Luke 1:33>; of the life received by those who believe in Christ, <John 3:16>, concerning whom He said, `they shall never perish,' <10:28>, and of the resurrection body, <2 Cor. 5:1>, elsewhere said to be `immortal,' <1 Cor. 15:53>, in which that life will be finally realized, <Matt. 25:46; Titus 1:2>.
αιωνιος is also used of the sin that `hath never forgiveness,' <Mark 3:29>, and of the judgment of God, from which there is no appeal, <Heb. 6:2>, and of the fire, which is one of its instruments, <Matt. 18:8; 25:41; Jude 7>, and which is elsewhere said to be `unquenchable,' <Mark 9:43>.
"The use of αιωνιος here shows that the punishment referred to in <2 Thes. 1:9>, is not temporary, but final, and, accordingly, the phraseology shows that its purpose is not remedial but retributive."

From Notes on Thessalonians, by Hogg and Vine, pp 232, 233. (from Vine's Expository Dictionary of Biblical Words) (Copyright (C) 1985, Thomas Nelson Publishers)​

67.96 αιωνιος aji>vdio", on; aijwvnio", on: pertaining to an unlimited duration of time - ‘eternal.’
aji>vdio"ò h{ te aji>vdio" aujtou` duvnami" kai; qeiovth" ‘his eternal power and divine nature’ Ro 1.20.
aijwvnio"ò blhqh`nai eij" to; pu`r to; aijwvnion ‘be thrown into the eternal fire’ Mt 18.8; tou` aijwnivou qeou` ‘of the eternal God’ Ro 16.26.
The most frequent use of αιωνιος in the NT is with zwhv ‘life,’ for example, i{na pa`" oJ pisteuvwn ejn aujtw/` e[ch/ zwh;n aijwvnion ‘so that everyone who believes in him may have eternal life’ Jn 3.15. In combination with zwhv there is evidently not only a temporal element, but also a qualitative distinction. In such contexts, αιωνιος evidently carries certain implications associated with αιωνιος in relationship to divine and supernatural attributes. If one translates ‘eternal life’ as simply ‘never dying,’ there may be serious misunderstandings, since persons may assume that ‘never dying’ refers only to physical existence rather than to ‘spiritual death.’ Accordingly, some translators have rendered ‘eternal life’ as ‘unending real life,’ so as to introduce a qualitative distinction.

Louw, Johannes P. and Nida, Eugene A., Greek-English Lexicon of the New Testament based on Semantic Domains, (New York: United Bible Societies) 1988, 1989.​

αιωνιος aionios. An adjective meaning “eternal,” and found in the LXX in Pss. 24; 77:5; Gen. 21:33, aionios in the NT is used 1. of God (Rom. 16:26), 2. of divine possessions and gifts (2 Cor. 4:18; Heb. 9:14; 1 Pet. 5:10; 1 Tim. 6:16; 2 Th. 2:16, and 3. of the eternal kingdom (2 Pet. 1:11), inheritance (Heb. 9:15), body (2 Cor. 5:1), and even judgment (Heb. 6:2, though cf. Mt. 18:8; 2 Th. 1:9, where the sense is perhaps “unceasing”).

Kittel, Gerhard, and Friedrich, Gerhard, Editors, The Theological Dictionary of the New Testament, Abridged in One Volume, (Grand Rapids, Michigan: William B. Eerdmans Publishing Company) 1985.​

αιωνιος aionios ", ov and a, ov, lasting for an age (aion 3), Plat.: ever-lasting, eternal, Id.

Liddell, H. G., and Scott, Abridged Greek-English Lexicon, (Oxford: Oxford University Press) 1992.​

166 aionios { ahee-o’-nee-os} αιωνιος from 165; TDNT - 1:208,31; adj
AV - eternal 42, everlasting 25, the world began + 5550 2, since the world began + 5550 1, for ever 1; 71
GK - 173 { aionios }
1) without beginning and end, that which always has been and always will be
2) without beginning
3) without end, never to cease, everlasting

Enhanced Strong’s Lexicon, (Oak Harbor, WA: Logos Research Systems, Inc.) 1995.​

CL The Gk. word αιων aion, which is probably derived from aei, … It thus appeared appropriate to later philosophers to use the word both for the dim and distant past, the beginning of the world, and for the far future, eternity (e.g. Plato, Tim. 37d).
Plato (Timoeus, ed. Steph. 3, 37, or ed. Baiter, Orell. et Winck. 712) says, speaking of the universe: …The nature therefore of the animal (living being) was eternal (aionios, before aidios), and this indeed it was impossible to adapt to what was produced (to genneto, to what had a beginning); he thinks to make a moveable image of eternity (aionos), and in adoring the heavens he makes of the eternity permanent in unity a certain eternal image moving in number, … And after unfolding this, he says (p. 38): "But these forms of time imitating eternity (aiona), and rolling round according to number, have had a beginning (gegonen).... For that pattern exists for all eternity (panta aiona estin on), but on the other hand, that which is perpetual (dia telous) throughout all time has had a beginning, and is, and will be." … Aion is what is properly eternal, in contrast with a divine imitation of it in ages of time, the result of the creative action of God which imitated the uncreate as nearly as He could in created ages.. ]
In Plato the term is developed so as to represent a timeless, immeasurable and transcendent super-time, an idea of time in itself. Plutarch and the earlier Stoics appropriate this understanding, and from it the Mysteries of Aion, the god of eternity, could be celebrated in Alexandria, and gnosticism could undertake its own speculations on time.
* * *

NIDNTT Colin Brown​

Wherefore neither in place are things there formed by nature; nor does time cause them to grow old: neither is there any change of anything of those things which are arranged beyond the outermost orbit; but unchangeable, and subject to no influence, having the best and most independent life, they continue for all eternity (aiona). … According to the same word (logon) the completeness of the whole heaven, and the completeness which embraces all time and infinitude is aion, having received this name from existing for ever (apo tou aei einai), immortal (athanatos, undying), and divine." In 10 he goes on to shew that that beginning to be (genesthai) involves the not existing always, which I refer to as shewing what he means by aion. He is proving the unchangeable eternity of the visible universe. That is no business of mine; but it shews what he means by eternity (aion). It cannot be aidion and genesthai at the same time, when, as in Plato, aidios is used as equivalent to aionios​

[Continued next post]

If this is "research" it is faulty.
Nine language sources cited. Fourteen total references! 1. NAS Hebrew-Aramaic and Greek Dictionaries, 2. Thayer’s Lexicon, 3. Vine’s Expository of Biblical Words, 3 references, 4. Louw-Nida Greek English Lexicon of the NT based on Semantic Domains, 2 references, 5. Theological Dictionary of the New Testament, 6. Abridged Greek lexicon, Liddell-Scott, 7. Enhanced Strong’s Lexicon, 3 references, 8. Bauer, Arndt, Gingrich, Danker Greek English Lexicon of the NT and other Early Christian Literature, 9. Concise Greek-English Dictionary of the NT.

Aion, Aionios and the lexicons:
166. αιωνιος aionios; from 165; agelong, eternal:— eternal(66), eternity(1), forever(1).

Thomas, Robert L., Th.D., General Editor, New American Standard Hebrew-Aramaic and Greek Dictionaries,​

166 aionios- αιωνιος
1) without beginning and end, what has always been and always will be
2) without beginning
3) without end, never to cease, everlasting

---Thayers​

2. αιωνιος aionios [166] "describes duration, either undefined but not endless, as in <Rom. 16:25; 2 Tim. 1:9; Titus 1:2>; or undefined because endless as in <Rom. 16:26>, and the other sixty-six places in the NT.
"The predominant meaning of αιωνιος , that in which it is used everywhere in the NT, save the places noted above, may be seen in <2 Cor. 4:18>, where it is set in contrast with proskairos, lit., `for a season,' and in <Philem. 15>, where only in the NT it is used without a noun. Moreover it is used of persons and things which are in their nature endless, as, e. g., of God, <Rom. 16:26>; of His power, <1 Tim. 6:16>, and of His glory, <1 Pet. 5:10>; of the Holy Spirit, <Heb. 9:14>; of the redemption effected by Christ, <Heb. 9:12>, and of the consequent salvation of men, <5:9>, as well as of His future rule, <2 Pet. 1:11>, which is elsewhere declared to be without end, <Luke 1:33>; of the life received by those who believe in Christ, <John 3:16>, concerning whom He said, `they shall never perish,' <10:28>, and of the resurrection body, <2 Cor. 5:1>, elsewhere said to be `immortal,' <1 Cor. 15:53>, in which that life will be finally realized, <Matt. 25:46; Titus 1:2>.
αιωνιος is also used of the sin that `hath never forgiveness,' <Mark 3:29>, and of the judgment of God, from which there is no appeal, <Heb. 6:2>, and of the fire, which is one of its instruments, <Matt. 18:8; 25:41; Jude 7>, and which is elsewhere said to be `unquenchable,' <Mark 9:43>.
"The use of αιωνιος here shows that the punishment referred to in <2 Thes. 1:9>, is not temporary, but final, and, accordingly, the phraseology shows that its purpose is not remedial but retributive."

From Notes on Thessalonians, by Hogg and Vine, pp 232, 233. (from Vine's Expository Dictionary of Biblical Words) (Copyright (C) 1985, Thomas Nelson Publishers)​

67.96 αιωνιος aji>vdio", on; aijwvnio", on: pertaining to an unlimited duration of time - ‘eternal.’
aji>vdio"ò h{ te aji>vdio" aujtou` duvnami" kai; qeiovth" ‘his eternal power and divine nature’ Ro 1.20.
aijwvnio"ò blhqh`nai eij" to; pu`r to; aijwvnion ‘be thrown into the eternal fire’ Mt 18.8; tou` aijwnivou qeou` ‘of the eternal God’ Ro 16.26.
The most frequent use of αιωνιος in the NT is with zwhv ‘life,’ for example, i{na pa`" oJ pisteuvwn ejn aujtw/` e[ch/ zwh;n aijwvnion ‘so that everyone who believes in him may have eternal life’ Jn 3.15. In combination with zwhv there is evidently not only a temporal element, but also a qualitative distinction. In such contexts, αιωνιος evidently carries certain implications associated with αιωνιος in relationship to divine and supernatural attributes. If one translates ‘eternal life’ as simply ‘never dying,’ there may be serious misunderstandings, since persons may assume that ‘never dying’ refers only to physical existence rather than to ‘spiritual death.’ Accordingly, some translators have rendered ‘eternal life’ as ‘unending real life,’ so as to introduce a qualitative distinction.

Louw, Johannes P. and Nida, Eugene A., Greek-English Lexicon of the New Testament based on Semantic Domains, (New York: United Bible Societies) 1988, 1989.​

αιωνιος aionios. An adjective meaning “eternal,” and found in the LXX in Pss. 24; 77:5; Gen. 21:33, aionios in the NT is used 1. of God (Rom. 16:26), 2. of divine possessions and gifts (2 Cor. 4:18; Heb. 9:14; 1 Pet. 5:10; 1 Tim. 6:16; 2 Th. 2:16, and 3. of the eternal kingdom (2 Pet. 1:11), inheritance (Heb. 9:15), body (2 Cor. 5:1), and even judgment (Heb. 6:2, though cf. Mt. 18:8; 2 Th. 1:9, where the sense is perhaps “unceasing”).

Kittel, Gerhard, and Friedrich, Gerhard, Editors, The Theological Dictionary of the New Testament, Abridged in One Volume, (Grand Rapids, Michigan: William B. Eerdmans Publishing Company) 1985.​

αιωνιος aionios ", ov and a, ov, lasting for an age (aion 3), Plat.: ever-lasting, eternal, Id.

Liddell, H. G., and Scott, Abridged Greek-English Lexicon, (Oxford: Oxford University Press) 1992.​

166 aionios { ahee-o’-nee-os} αιωνιος from 165; TDNT - 1:208,31; adj
AV - eternal 42, everlasting 25, the world began + 5550 2, since the world began + 5550 1, for ever 1; 71
GK - 173 { aionios }
1) without beginning and end, that which always has been and always will be
2) without beginning
3) without end, never to cease, everlasting

Enhanced Strong’s Lexicon, (Oak Harbor, WA: Logos Research Systems, Inc.) 1995.​

CL The Gk. word αιων aion, which is probably derived from aei, … It thus appeared appropriate to later philosophers to use the word both for the dim and distant past, the beginning of the world, and for the far future, eternity (e.g. Plato, Tim. 37d).
Plato (Timoeus, ed. Steph. 3, 37, or ed. Baiter, Orell. et Winck. 712) says, speaking of the universe: …The nature therefore of the animal (living being) was eternal (aionios, before aidios), and this indeed it was impossible to adapt to what was produced (to genneto, to what had a beginning); he thinks to make a moveable image of eternity (aionos), and in adoring the heavens he makes of the eternity permanent in unity a certain eternal image moving in number, … And after unfolding this, he says (p. 38): "But these forms of time imitating eternity (aiona), and rolling round according to number, have had a beginning (gegonen).... For that pattern exists for all eternity (panta aiona estin on), but on the other hand, that which is perpetual (dia telous) throughout all time has had a beginning, and is, and will be." … Aion is what is properly eternal, in contrast with a divine imitation of it in ages of time, the result of the creative action of God which imitated the uncreate as nearly as He could in created ages.. ]
In Plato the term is developed so as to represent a timeless, immeasurable and transcendent super-time, an idea of time in itself. Plutarch and the earlier Stoics appropriate this understanding, and from it the Mysteries of Aion, the god of eternity, could be celebrated in Alexandria, and gnosticism could undertake its own speculations on time.
* * *

NIDNTT Colin Brown​

Wherefore neither in place are things there formed by nature; nor does time cause them to grow old: neither is there any change of anything of those things which are arranged beyond the outermost orbit; but unchangeable, and subject to no influence, having the best and most independent life, they continue for all eternity (aiona). … According to the same word (logon) the completeness of the whole heaven, and the completeness which embraces all time and infinitude is aion, having received this name from existing for ever (apo tou aei einai), immortal (athanatos, undying), and divine." In 10 he goes on to shew that that beginning to be (genesthai) involves the not existing always, which I refer to as shewing what he means by aion. He is proving the unchangeable eternity of the visible universe. That is no business of mine; but it shews what he means by eternity (aion). It cannot be aidion and genesthai at the same time, when, as in Plato, aidios is used as equivalent to aionios​

[Continued next post]

Hello. I was wondering if I could ask you a few questions. If you don't mind, I left a comment about aionios above, and it would be a big help if you could read that also. Thank you.

In the concordances you quoted, almost all of them say that aionios means "age long" or some equivalent. They cannot deny this fact, so they must add a second definition that is infinitely different than it's literal definition. When a word has two definitions, it is up to the reader to decide which definition is most proper.

One definition of aionios means that our Loving Father has rescued all of mankind from sin, and He was completely victorious in obtaining all of His desires.

The other definition means that our Loving Father is going to cast billions and billions of people in a never-ending torture chamber because they failed to answer His multiple choice question correctly; during their 60 or 70 meaningless years of their meaningless life.

So my questions are...

Why do you desire so badly that God will torment billions of people forever and ever and ever and ever and ever and ever and.....?

Do you rejoice every time a nonbeliever dies, because you know that they are going to be tormented forever and God's justice and wrath will be satisfied? If not, why?

I'm not trying to mock you, but I do believe these to be acceptable questions that deserve an acceptable answer.

That's all I wanted to ask for now. Thank you.

 

[anonymouswho]

That was helpful, thank you. I still don't understand the point of mentioning an unforgivable sin, if everyone who ever sinned is going to be saved and forgiven anyway, which is the claim of universalism, right? Or does universalism take into account the unforgivable sin and admit that some may not be saved if they commit that sin?

Hey Chriliman. I do not believe Yeshua ever said anything about an unpardonable sin. Here is the original Greek:

ὃς (whoever) δ’ (moreover) ἂν (anyhow) βλασφημήσῃ (blasphemy) εἰς (towards) τὸ (the) Πνεῦμα (spirit) τὸ (the) Ἅγιον (set-apart), οὐκ (not G3756) ἔχει (has) ἄφεσιν (forgiveness) εἰς (unto) τὸν (the) αἰῶνα (age), ἀλλὰ (but) ἔνοχός (liable) ἐστιν (is) αἰωνίου (of age-enduring) ἁμαρτήματος (sin). Mark 3:29

I hope that helps. Thank you.

 

[Chriliman]

Hey Chriliman. I do not believe Yeshua ever said anything about an unpardonable sin. Here is the original Greek:

ὃς (whoever) δ’ (moreover) ἂν (anyhow) βλασφημήσῃ (blasphemy) εἰς (towards) τὸ (the) Πνεῦμα (spirit) τὸ (the) Ἅγιον (set-apart), οὐκ (not G3756) ἔχει (has) ἄφεσιν (forgiveness) εἰς (unto) τὸν (the) αἰῶνα (age), ἀλλὰ (but) ἔνοχός (liable) ἐστιν (is) αἰωνίου (of age-enduring) ἁμαρτήματος (sin). Mark 3:29

I hope that helps. Thank you.

The way I interpret that is that those who blaspheme the Spirit in a particular age will remain in their sin for the entire age in which they committed the sin.

However, God will grant them repentance in a future age after they've suffered loss and have been refined by God? Is that how you understand it?

 

[Hillsage]

Hello everyone. Is it okay if I join this conversation?

The truth should always be welcome.

"In hope of eternal life, which God, that cannot lie, promised before the world began (aionios)" Titus 1:2

...the adjective is simply a description of the noun it is associated to. But the theologians are crafty. They claim that aionios actually means "timelessness" or "agelessness" because these words are also adjectives.

'Crafty' indeed. You could have proven a bit more of their 'craftiness' if you'd showed the other aionios in Titus though.

Titus 1:2 In hope of eternal/aionios life, which God, that cannot lie, promised before the world/aionios began;

As you can see it would have been stupid to translate 'both' words aionios as eternal. But since theologians have to protect 'doctrine' the sleight of hand appears. It wouldn't have made any sense that 'eternity' had a beginning, so the KJV inserts "world"?

But YLT remains true to the truth IMO.

Titus 1:2 upon hope of life age-during/aionios, which God, who doth not lie, did promise before times of ages/aionios,

 

[Hillsage]

...and that is why they were so Sad, You See. I'm sorry, did I press a hot button?

Yes yes...a dear pastor pointed out their 'sadness' many years ago, and it always stuck as to which group believed what between the Sadducees and the Pharisees.

'Hot button'???? Heavens no, not on my account anyway. I was affirming with you the incorrectness of the Jews having the right idea concerning hell. Those today trusting 'their opinion' then, are simply ignoring how much trouble Jesus even had with their 'theology' too. And he was living with them in 'real time', and not 2000 years of craftiness later.

 

[Chriliman]

The truth should always be welcome.


'Crafty' indeed. You could have proven a bit more of their 'craftiness' if you'd showed the other aionios in Titus though.

Titus 1:2 In hope of eternal/aionios life, which God, that cannot lie, promised before the world/aionios began;

As you can see it would have been stupid to translate 'both' words aionios as eternal. But since theologians have to protect 'doctrine' the sleight of hand appears. It wouldn't have made any sense that 'eternity' had a beginning, so the KJV inserts "world"?

But YLT remains true to the truth IMO.

Titus 1:2 upon hope of life age-during/aionios, which God, who doth not lie, did promise before times of ages/aionios,

Interesting. It's clear that only God is eternally alive, meaning only God has no beginning or end, it then follows that what God creates begins to experience life that is never ending with God who is eternally alive, never ending.