Universal reconciliation

[SkyWriting]

I'm reading a book a book whose purpose is to give "three views of hell", traditional, annihilation, and universal reconciliation. My question is, " do you think universal reconciliation is heresy?

Yes, but likely correct.

1Now all the tax collectors and the sinners were coming near Him to listen to Him. 2Both the Pharisees and the scribes began to grumble, saying, “This man receives sinners and eats with them.”

3So He told them this parable, saying, 4“What man among you, if he has a hundred sheep and has lost one of them, does not leave the ninety-nine in the open pasture and go after the one which is lost until he finds it? 5“When he has found it, he lays it on his shoulders, rejoicing. 6“And when he comes home, he calls together his friends and his neighbors, saying to them, ‘Rejoice with me, for I have found my sheep which was lost!’ 7“I tell you that in the same way, there will be more joy in heaven over one sinner who repents than over ninety-nine righteous persons who need no repentance.

 

[Lazarus Short]

Simple answer, yes, universal reconciliation (as well as annihilation) is indeed heresy. It is completely unbiblical.

Anyone could stand 10,000 years in Hell if they knew that they would end up in Heaven anyways. And that would violate God's perfect and infinite righteousness and justice. That is why Hell is eternal. And even after 10 billion years in Hell, those in Hell will still shake their fist at God and say "I hate you!"

I have said this before and often, but it bears repeating: Hell does not and cannot exist. Why? In Genesis 1:1 we are told that in the beginning, God created the Heaven and the Earth. It is vastly important to note that He did not claim to have created Hell. It is our first clue. In John 1:3 we are told that all things came into being through Him, and apart from Him nothing was made. In other words, God did not create Hell, and His Apostle states that if He did not make something, then no one else did, either. The Earth and all that is in it is part of a hierarchy created by God, not a prey between Heaven and Hell.

Further, consider who/what might be in Hell.
The Devil/Satan? No, my detailed survey of the KJV consistently fails to place Satan in Hell, or associated with it. Satan's realm of action, as given in the Bible, is always the Earth, and brief consultations in Heaven, as in the book of Job.

Us? No, not when you realise what we are, as given in the account of God's creation of Adam:

non-living body + breath/spirit of Life = living soul

reversing (for when we die)
living soul - breath/spirit of Life = dead body (no more soul)

What then, could God send to Hell?
The body? A dead or non-living body? Absurd and pointless.
The soul? No, it went "poof" at death, and is no longer existent.
The Spirit? No! It is one of the Seven Spirits of God, so the idea of sending it to Hell is both absurd and blasphemous.
If God were to recombine body and Spirit to remake the soul, and send that soul to Hell, it would still involve sending His own Spirit to Hell - again, absurd and blasphemous.

It is useful to consider the logical consequences of our doctrines.

 

[Dave-W]

I have said this before and often, but it bears repeating: Hell does not and cannot exist. Why? In Genesis 1:1 we are told that in the beginning, God created the Heaven and the Earth. It is vastly important to note that He did not claim to have created Hell. It is our first clue. In John 1:3 we are told that all things came into being through Him, and apart from Him nothing was made. In other words, God did not create Hell,

Matthew 25:41 “Then He will also say to those on His left, ‘Depart from Me, accursed ones, into the eternal fire which has been prepared for the devil and his angels;

Apparently God DID make it.

It is useful to consider the logical consequences of our doctrines.

I quite agree.

 

[Lazarus Short]

Matthew 25:41 “Then He will also say to those on His left, ‘Depart from Me, accursed ones, into the eternal fire which has been prepared for the devil and his angels;

Apparently God DID make it.

I quite agree.

You are assuming Hell against all evidence, for it is just not there, except as a mental overlay on top of every text. Why do you assume the fire of God is for punishment and torture, and not for purification? A study of what God says Himself about His fire demonstrates clearly that it is for cleansing and purification. In this sense, God even describes Himself as soap.

I am a newcomer to this forum, but not to this topic, for I studied it in the SHT (Standard Hell Text, aka, KJV) for over a year - to resolve this one question in my mind. Outside the KJV, I found that Hell came into Christianity from pagan sources, and it goes far deeper than the Greek Hades or the Latin Infernum.

Anyway, do you really expect to topple the well-developed concept of Universal Reconciliation by quoting a single "proof" text? Funny! OTOH, I have examined every book, every chapter, and every verse of the KJV to come to the conclusions I have.

Further, do you really grasp what I have said? If the text you quoted proves Hell, then Jesus is sending countless numbers of those cursed souls to everlasting punishment, along with bits of the Spirit of His Father. Absurd and blasphemous.

 

[dayhiker]

Short .. have you done much study on how the word for eternal is used in the Bible?

 

[Lazarus Short]

Short .. have you done much study on how the word for eternal is used in the Bible?

Honestly, not as much as I have studied the word "Hell," but I knew to look Matthew 25:41 up in Bible Hub's interlinear version, and then click on the word, and then click on the Strong's #. It should have been translated as "age-long," but the KJV seems to be doctrine-driven, rather than honest translation-driven. The Young's Literal Version renders the word properly.

 

[Lazarus Short]

I suppose it would be proper to not hold back, so I'll quote myself from my manuscript of Heaven, Yes - Hell, No:


In 25:32-46, Jesus separates “sheep” people from “goat” people. The right-hand sheep are promised “life eternal,” and the left-hand goats are given “everlasting punishment.” In particular, Jesus says, “Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels.” (25:41) Now, the Hell-roaring crowd will think they have me. Nope. First, let’s look at what fire is prepared. It is most certainly NOT the classic Hell of Dante, Milton, and Baxter, as Satan presides over that, at least in their theological fantasies, and he is most certainly not in charge here. Sometimes we must look ahead, and this is one of those times. We find a fire prepared, or at least, the devil is cast into it – the Lake of Fire, as we see in the Revelation, 20:10. Now that we know the fire is God’s fire, the reader should recall that His fire is redemptive in nature, cleansing and purifying, not destroying and punishing. It burns up the chaff, the tares, the wood, hay, and stubble; what it leaves is gold, silver, the precious things which endure fire. The goat people will suffer loss, as we read earlier, but they will be saved, but as through fire. The last point may be the most difficult: how long will they be in the fire? Forever? That would make no sense – why purify and cleanse them with fire forever? That would just get back to punishment and destruction. Do you see how the time factor is so important to the Hell theory? Now the KJV uses terms like “eternal,” “everlasting,” “for ever,” and the like. The YLT uses the term “age-during,” a clumsy term, and it refers to a long span of time, but not an infinite one.


So, we must stop here and look at a few Greek and Hebrew words. My own research finds only two times in the New Testament where “eternal” comes from an equivalent Greek word – “aidios.” No, it’s not “goodbye” in Spanish. The fact is that in the ancient world, concepts like “eternal,” “zero” and “infinity” were slow to develop. The ancient Egyptians expressed eternity as “millions of years,” which gives us the feel, but that is not really eternity, as millions of years still have an end and a beginning. The Greek word all-too-often mistranslated as “eternity” is “aion,” which was transliterated into the Latin “aeon,” and that came down to us as the English “aeon” and “eon.” In the Hebrew, we find the same meaning in “olam,” mistranslated in the Old Testament, also too often, as “eternity.” In the early sense that Homer used, “aion” meant a lifetime. Today, “eon” is often used to refer to forever, everlasting and eternal, but in the Biblical sense we should keep in mind that it is best used to mean any long but finite period of time. To put it in perspective, if we are speaking of God, Who is uncreated, we can speak of eternity. If the subject is the created cosmos, then we must speak of aeons or eons, as the cosmos has a beginning, and is therefore, not eternal.


Back to Matthew 25:32-46, we should now know that Jesus is sending His right-hand sheep, not to “life eternal,” but to the life of the aeon, or “aeonian life.” In the same way, His left-hand goats are sent, not to eternal punishment, but to an aeon or eon (beginning and end, remember) of punishment, chastisement, correction, and purification. Having dealt now with the eternal part of eternal torture (aka, Hell), the torture part must wait until we reach the Lake of Fire in the Revelation. Stay tuned.

I know this is somewhat out of context, for I depend on the reader having read the previous 90+ pages. The whole manuscript runs to 176 pages. My inescapable conclusion is that Hell does not hold up a a doctrine, as a theory, or as a concept. It is a 404.

 

[Der Alte]

I have said this before and often, but it bears repeating: Hell does not and cannot exist. Why? In Genesis 1:1 we are told that in the beginning, God created the Heaven and the Earth. It is vastly important to note that He did not claim to have created Hell. It is our first clue. In John 1:3 we are told that all things came into being through Him, and apart from Him nothing was made. In other words, God did not create Hell, and His Apostle states that if He did not make something, then no one else did, either. The Earth and all that is in it is part of a hierarchy created by God, not a prey between Heaven and Hell.
Further, consider who/what might be in Hell.
The Devil/Satan? No, my detailed survey of the KJV consistently fails to place Satan in Hell, or associated with it. Satan's realm of action, as given in the Bible, is always the Earth, and brief consultations in Heaven, as in the book of Job.
Us? No, not when you realise what we are, as given in the account of God's creation of Adam:
non-living body + breath/spirit of Life = living soul
reversing (for when we die)
living soul - breath/spirit of Life = dead body (no more soul)
What then, could God send to Hell?
The body? A dead or non-living body? Absurd and pointless.
The soul? No, it went "poof" at death, and is no longer existent.
The Spirit? No! It is one of the Seven Spirits of God, so the idea of sending it to Hell is both absurd and blasphemous.
If God were to recombine body and Spirit to remake the soul, and send that soul to Hell, it would still involve sending His own Spirit to Hell - again, absurd and blasphemous.
It is useful to consider the logical consequences of our doctrines.

The Jews, in Israel before and during the time of Jesus believed in a place of eternal, unending, fiery torment and they called it both Gehinnom/Gehenna and Sheol. When Jesus taught about,

• "Eternal punishment, Mt 25:46"
• "the fire of hell where the fire is not quenched and the worm does not die, Mk 9:43-48" and
• "cast into a fiery furnace where there will be wailing and gnashing of teeth,” Mt 13:42, 50
• “better for him [a person who offends a little one] that a millstone were hanged about his neck, and that he were drowned in the depth of the sea. Mt 18:6
• “it had been good for him [the one who betrays Jesus] if he had not been born.” Mat 26:24​

These teachings reaffirmed and sanctioned the existing Jewish view of eternal hell. In Matt. 18:6, 26:24, see above, Jesus teaches that there is a fate worse than death or nonexistence. A fate worse than death is also mentioned in Heb 10:28-31.

Heb 10:28 He that despised Moses' law died without mercy
under two or three witnesses:
29 Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?
30 For we know him that hath said, Vengeance belongeth unto me, I will recompense, saith the Lord. And again, The Lord shall judge his people.
31 It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.​

Jesus used the word death 17 times in the gospels and if He wanted to say eternal death in Matt 25:46, that is what He would have said but He said “eternal punishment.” The Sadducees did not believe in the resurrection, they knew that everybody died, young, old, good, bad, and knew that it was permanent. When Jesus taught “eternal punishment” they would not have understood it as death, it would have meant something worse to them.
Jesus knew what the Jews, believed about hell. If the Jews were wrong, when Jesus taught about man’s eternal fate, such as eternal punishment, He would have corrected them. Jesus did not correct them, thus their teaching on hell was correct. Here is historical evidence to support this.

Jewish Encyclopedia, Gehenna
The place where children were sacrificed to the god Moloch was originally in the "valley of the son of Hinnom," to the south of Jerusalem (Josh. xv. 8, passim; II Kings xxiii. 10; Jer. ii. 23; vii. 31-32; xix. 6, 13-14). For this reason the valley was deemed to be accursed, and "Gehenna" therefore soon became a figurative equivalent for "hell." Hell, like paradise, was created by God (Sotah 22a); [Note, this is according to the ancient Jews, long before the Christian era, NOT the bias of Christian translators.]
It is assumed in general that sinners go to hell immediately after their death. The famous teacher Johanan b. Zakkai wept before his death because he did not know whether he would go to paradise or to hell (Ber. 28b). The pious go to paradise, and sinners to hell (B.M. 83b).
But as regards the heretics, etc., and Jeroboam, Nebat's son, hell shall pass away, but they shall not pass away" (R. H. 17a; comp. Shab. 33b). All that descend into Gehenna shall come up again, with the exception of three classes of men: those who have committed adultery, or shamed their neighbors, or vilified them (B. M. 58b).[/i]
As mentioned above, heretics and the Roman oppressors go to Gehenna, and the same fate awaits the Persians, the oppressors of the Babylonian Jews (Ber. 8b). When Nebuchadnezzar descended into hell, [Sheol] all its inhabitants were afraid that he was coming to rule over them (Shab. 149a; comp. Isa. xiv. 9-10). The Book of Enoch also says that it is chiefly the heathen who are to be cast into the fiery pool on the Day of Judgment (x. 6, xci. 9, et al). "The Lord, the Almighty, will punish them on the Day of Judgment by putting fire and worms into their flesh, so that they cry out with pain unto all eternity" (Judith xvi. 17). The sinners in Gehenna will be filled with pain when God puts back the souls into the dead bodies on the Day of Judgment, according to Isa. xxxiii. 11 (Sanh. 108b).
Link:Jewish Encyclopedia Online
= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
Talmud -Tractate Rosh Hashanah Chapter 1.
The school of Hillel says: . . . but as for Minim, [follower of Jesus] informers and disbelievers, who deny the Torah, or Resurrection, or separate themselves from the congregation, or who inspire their fellowmen with dread of them, or who sin and cause others to sin, as did Jeroboam the son of Nebat and his followers, they all descend to Gehenna, and are judged there from generation to generation, as it is said [Isa. lxvi. 24]: "And they shall go forth and look upon the carcases of the men who have transgressed against Me; for their worm shall not die, neither shall their fire be quenched." Even when Gehenna will be destroyed, they will not be consumed, as it is written [Psalms, xlix. 15]: "And their forms wasteth away in the nether world," which the sages comment upon to mean that their forms shall endure even when the grave is no more. Concerning them Hannah says [I Sam. ii. 10]: "The adversaries of the Lord shall be broken to pieces."
Link:Tract Rosh Hashana: Chapter I.
The traditional explanation that a burning rubbish heap in the Valley of Hinnom south of Jerusalem gave rise to the idea of a fiery Gehenna of judgment is attributed to Rabbi David Kimhi's commentary on Psalm 27:13 (ca. A.D. 1200). He maintained that in this loathsome valley fires were kept burning perpetually to consume the filth and cadavers thrown into it. However, Strack and Billerbeck state that there is neither archaeological nor literary evidence in support of this claim, in either the earlier intertestamental or the later rabbinic sources (Hermann L. Strack and Paul Billerbeck, Kommentar zum Neuen Testament aus Talmud and Midrasch, 5 vols. [Munich: Beck, 1922-56], 4:2:1030). Also a more recent author holds a similar view (Lloyd R. Bailey, "Gehenna: The Topography of Hell," Biblical Archeologist 49 [1986]: 189.
Source, Bibliotheca Sacra / July–September 1992
http://faculty.gordon.edu/hu/bi/ted...Articles/BSac-NT/Scharen-GenenaSyn-Pt1-BS.htm​

Note there is no “archaeological nor literary evidence in support of this claim, [that Gehenna was ever used as a garbage dump] in either the earlier intertestamental or the later rabbinic sources” If Gehenna was ever used as a garbage dump there should be broken pottery, tools, utensils, bones, etc. but there is no such evidence.

“Gehenna is presented as diametrically opposed to ‘life’: it is better to enter life than to go to Gehenna. . .It is common practice, both in scholarly and less technical works, to associate the description of Gehenna with the supposedly contemporary garbage dump in the valley of Hinnom. This association often leads scholars to emphasize the destructive aspects of the judgment here depicted: fire burns until the object is completely consumed. Two particular problems may be noted in connection with this approach. First, there is no convincing evidence in the primary sources for the existence of a fiery rubbish dump in this location(in any case, a thorough investigation would be appreciated). Secondly, the significant background to this passage more probably lies in Jesus’ allusion to Isaiah 66:24.”
(“The Duration of Divine Judgment in the New Testament” in The Reader Must Understand edited by K. Brower and M. W. Ellion, p. 223, emphasis mine)
G. R. Beasley-Murray in Jesus and the Kingdom of God:
“Ge-Hinnom (Aramaic Ge-hinnam, hence the Greek Geenna), ‘The Valley of Hinnom,’ lay south of Jerusalem, immediately outside its walls. The notion, still referred to by some commentators, that the city’s rubbish was burned in this valley, has no further basis than a statement by the Jewish scholar Kimchi (sic) made about A.D. 1200; it is not attested in any ancient source.” (p. 376n.92)
http://www.btdf.org/forums/topic/20113-the-burning-garbage-dump-of-gehenna-is-a-myth/ ​

 

[Lazarus Short]

The Jews, in Israel before and during the time of Jesus believed in a place of eternal, unending, fiery torment and they called it both Gehinnom/Gehenna and Sheol. When Jesus taught about,

• "Eternal punishment, Mt 25:46"
• "the fire of hell where the fire is not quenched and the worm does not die, Mk 9:43-48" and
• "cast into a fiery furnace where there will be wailing and gnashing of teeth,” Mt 13:42, 50
• “better for him [a person who offends a little one] that a millstone were hanged about his neck, and that he were drowned in the depth of the sea. Mt 18:6
• “it had been good for him [the one who betrays Jesus] if he had not been born.” Mat 26:24​

These teachings reaffirmed and sanctioned the existing Jewish view of eternal hell. In Matt. 18:6, 26:24, see above, Jesus teaches that there is a fate worse than death or nonexistence. A fate worse than death is also mentioned in Heb 10:28-31.

Heb 10:28 He that despised Moses' law died without mercy
under two or three witnesses:
29 Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?
30 For we know him that hath said, Vengeance belongeth unto me, I will recompense, saith the Lord. And again, The Lord shall judge his people.
31 It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.​

Jesus used the word death 17 times in the gospels and if He wanted to say eternal death in Matt 25:46, that is what He would have said but He said “eternal punishment.” The Sadducees did not believe in the resurrection, they knew that everybody died, young, old, good, bad, and knew that it was permanent. When Jesus taught “eternal punishment” they would not have understood it as death, it would have meant something worse to them.
Jesus knew what the Jews, believed about hell. If the Jews were wrong, when Jesus taught about man’s eternal fate, such as eternal punishment, He would have corrected them. Jesus did not correct them, thus their teaching on hell was correct. Here is historical evidence to support this.

Jewish Encyclopedia, Gehenna
The place where children were sacrificed to the god Moloch was originally in the "valley of the son of Hinnom," to the south of Jerusalem (Josh. xv. 8, passim; II Kings xxiii. 10; Jer. ii. 23; vii. 31-32; xix. 6, 13-14). For this reason the valley was deemed to be accursed, and "Gehenna" therefore soon became a figurative equivalent for "hell." Hell, like paradise, was created by God (Sotah 22a); [Note, this is according to the ancient Jews, long before the Christian era, NOT the bias of Christian translators.]
It is assumed in general that sinners go to hell immediately after their death. The famous teacher Johanan b. Zakkai wept before his death because he did not know whether he would go to paradise or to hell (Ber. 28b). The pious go to paradise, and sinners to hell (B.M. 83b).
But as regards the heretics, etc., and Jeroboam, Nebat's son, hell shall pass away, but they shall not pass away" (R. H. 17a; comp. Shab. 33b). All that descend into Gehenna shall come up again, with the exception of three classes of men: those who have committed adultery, or shamed their neighbors, or vilified them (B. M. 58b).[/i]
As mentioned above, heretics and the Roman oppressors go to Gehenna, and the same fate awaits the Persians, the oppressors of the Babylonian Jews (Ber. 8b). When Nebuchadnezzar descended into hell, [Sheol] all its inhabitants were afraid that he was coming to rule over them (Shab. 149a; comp. Isa. xiv. 9-10). The Book of Enoch also says that it is chiefly the heathen who are to be cast into the fiery pool on the Day of Judgment (x. 6, xci. 9, et al). "The Lord, the Almighty, will punish them on the Day of Judgment by putting fire and worms into their flesh, so that they cry out with pain unto all eternity" (Judith xvi. 17). The sinners in Gehenna will be filled with pain when God puts back the souls into the dead bodies on the Day of Judgment, according to Isa. xxxiii. 11 (Sanh. 108b).
Link:Jewish Encyclopedia Online
= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
Talmud -Tractate Rosh Hashanah Chapter 1.
The school of Hillel says: . . . but as for Minim, [follower of Jesus] informers and disbelievers, who deny the Torah, or Resurrection, or separate themselves from the congregation, or who inspire their fellowmen with dread of them, or who sin and cause others to sin, as did Jeroboam the son of Nebat and his followers, they all descend to Gehenna, and are judged there from generation to generation, as it is said [Isa. lxvi. 24]: "And they shall go forth and look upon the carcases of the men who have transgressed against Me; for their worm shall not die, neither shall their fire be quenched." Even when Gehenna will be destroyed, they will not be consumed, as it is written [Psalms, xlix. 15]: "And their forms wasteth away in the nether world," which the sages comment upon to mean that their forms shall endure even when the grave is no more. Concerning them Hannah says [I Sam. ii. 10]: "The adversaries of the Lord shall be broken to pieces."
Link:Tract Rosh Hashana: Chapter I.
The traditional explanation that a burning rubbish heap in the Valley of Hinnom south of Jerusalem gave rise to the idea of a fiery Gehenna of judgment is attributed to Rabbi David Kimhi's commentary on Psalm 27:13 (ca. A.D. 1200). He maintained that in this loathsome valley fires were kept burning perpetually to consume the filth and cadavers thrown into it. However, Strack and Billerbeck state that there is neither archaeological nor literary evidence in support of this claim, in either the earlier intertestamental or the later rabbinic sources (Hermann L. Strack and Paul Billerbeck, Kommentar zum Neuen Testament aus Talmud and Midrasch, 5 vols. [Munich: Beck, 1922-56], 4:2:1030). Also a more recent author holds a similar view (Lloyd R. Bailey, "Gehenna: The Topography of Hell," Biblical Archeologist 49 [1986]: 189.
Source, Bibliotheca Sacra / July–September 1992
http://faculty.gordon.edu/hu/bi/ted...and do not curse][bless and do not curse].htm​

Note there is no “archaeological nor literary evidence in support of this claim, [that Gehenna was ever used as a garbage dump] in either the earlier intertestamental or the later rabbinic sources” If Gehenna was ever used as a garbage dump there should be broken pottery, tools, utensils, bones, etc. but there is no such evidence.

“Gehenna is presented as diametrically opposed to ‘life’: it is better to enter life than to go to Gehenna. . .It is common practice, both in scholarly and less technical works, to associate the description of Gehenna with the supposedly contemporary garbage dump in the valley of Hinnom. This association often leads scholars to emphasize the destructive aspects of the judgment here depicted: fire burns until the object is completely consumed. Two particular problems may be noted in connection with this approach. First, there is no convincing evidence in the primary sources for the existence of a fiery rubbish dump in this location(in any case, a thorough investigation would be appreciated). Secondly, the significant background to this passage more probably lies in Jesus’ allusion to Isaiah 66:24.”
(“The Duration of Divine Judgment in the New Testament” in The Reader Must Understand edited by K. Brower and M. W. Ellion, p. 223, emphasis mine)
G. R. Beasley-Murray in Jesus and the Kingdom of God:
“Ge-Hinnom (Aramaic Ge-hinnam, hence the Greek Geenna), ‘The Valley of Hinnom,’ lay south of Jerusalem, immediately outside its walls. The notion, still referred to by some commentators, that the city’s rubbish was burned in this valley, has no further basis than a statement by the Jewish scholar Kimchi (sic) made about A.D. 1200; it is not attested in any ancient source.” (p. 376n.92)
http://www.btdf.org/forums/topic/20113-the-burning-garbage-dump-of-gehenna-is-a-myth/ ​

Be aware that I don't give a fig for what the Jews believed then or now, and certainly not the Jewish Encyclopedia. It was quite enough to slog through the theo-illogical mess of the KJV. Further, do you suppose that I have not dealt with each of the verses you quoted, from a UR perspective?

 

[SkyWriting]

I have said this before and often, but it bears repeating: Hell does not and cannot exist. Why? In Genesis 1:1 we are told that in the beginning, God created the Heaven and the Earth. It is vastly important to note that He did not claim to have created Hell.

Some areas of scripture cover such topics more thoroughly than others.


Matthew 23:33 "You snakes! You brood of vipers! How will you escape being condemned to hell?

2 Peter 2:4 For if God did not spare angels when they sinned, but sent them to hell,
putting them in chains of darkness to be held for judgment

James 3:6 The tongue also is a fire, It corrupts the whole body, sets the whole course
of one's life on fire, and is itself set on fire by hell.

Matthew 10:28 Do not be afraid of those who kill the body in hell. ...
Fear only God, who can destroy both soul and body in hell.

Luke 12:5 But I will show you whom you should fear: Fear him who after your body has been
killed, has authority to throw you into hell. Yes, I tell you, fear him.

Deuteronomy 32:22 For a fire will be kindled by my wrath, one that will burn to the depths of hell.


Fear not for God will fix this problem:


King James Bible
And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.

You are assuming Hell against all evidence, for it is just not there, except as a mental overlay on top of every text. Why do you assume the fire of God is for punishment and torture, and not for purification?

You are correct, torment is not the same as torture. The rich man (John 5:39-47) suffered torment as James describes above.

 

[Der Alte]

So, we must stop here and look at a few Greek and Hebrew words. My own research finds only two times in the New Testament where “eternal” comes from an equivalent Greek word – “aidios.” No, it’s not “goodbye” in Spanish. The fact is that in the ancient world, concepts like “eternal,” “zero” and “infinity” were slow to develop. The ancient Egyptians expressed eternity as “millions of years,” which gives us the feel, but that is not really eternity, as millions of years still have an end and a beginning. The Greek word all-too-often mistranslated as “eternity” is “aion,” which was transliterated into the Latin “aeon,” and that came down to us as the English “aeon” and “eon.” In the Hebrew, we find the same meaning in “olam,” mistranslated in the Old Testament, also too often, as “eternity.” In the early sense that Homer used, “aion” meant a lifetime. Today, “eon” is often used to refer to forever, everlasting and eternal, but in the Biblical sense we should keep in mind that it is best used to mean any long but finite period of time. To put it in perspective, if we are speaking of God, Who is uncreated, we can speak of eternity. If the subject is the created cosmos, then we must speak of aeons or eons, as the cosmos has a beginning, and is therefore, not eternal. . .

If this is "research" it is faulty.
Nine language sources cited. Fourteen total references! 1. NAS Hebrew-Aramaic and Greek Dictionaries, 2. Thayer’s Lexicon, 3. Vine’s Expository of Biblical Words, 3 references, 4. Louw-Nida Greek English Lexicon of the NT based on Semantic Domains, 2 references, 5. Theological Dictionary of the New Testament, 6. Abridged Greek lexicon, Liddell-Scott, 7. Enhanced Strong’s Lexicon, 3 references, 8. Bauer, Arndt, Gingrich, Danker Greek English Lexicon of the NT and other Early Christian Literature, 9. Concise Greek-English Dictionary of the NT.

Aion, Aionios and the lexicons:
166. αιωνιος aionios; from 165; agelong, eternal:— eternal(66), eternity(1), forever(1).

Thomas, Robert L., Th.D., General Editor, New American Standard Hebrew-Aramaic and Greek Dictionaries,​

166 aionios- αιωνιος
1) without beginning and end, what has always been and always will be
2) without beginning
3) without end, never to cease, everlasting

---Thayers​

2. αιωνιος aionios [166] "describes duration, either undefined but not endless, as in <Rom. 16:25; 2 Tim. 1:9; Titus 1:2>; or undefined because endless as in <Rom. 16:26>, and the other sixty-six places in the NT.
"The predominant meaning of αιωνιος , that in which it is used everywhere in the NT, save the places noted above, may be seen in <2 Cor. 4:18>, where it is set in contrast with proskairos, lit., `for a season,' and in <Philem. 15>, where only in the NT it is used without a noun. Moreover it is used of persons and things which are in their nature endless, as, e. g., of God, <Rom. 16:26>; of His power, <1 Tim. 6:16>, and of His glory, <1 Pet. 5:10>; of the Holy Spirit, <Heb. 9:14>; of the redemption effected by Christ, <Heb. 9:12>, and of the consequent salvation of men, <5:9>, as well as of His future rule, <2 Pet. 1:11>, which is elsewhere declared to be without end, <Luke 1:33>; of the life received by those who believe in Christ, <John 3:16>, concerning whom He said, `they shall never perish,' <10:28>, and of the resurrection body, <2 Cor. 5:1>, elsewhere said to be `immortal,' <1 Cor. 15:53>, in which that life will be finally realized, <Matt. 25:46; Titus 1:2>.
αιωνιος is also used of the sin that `hath never forgiveness,' <Mark 3:29>, and of the judgment of God, from which there is no appeal, <Heb. 6:2>, and of the fire, which is one of its instruments, <Matt. 18:8; 25:41; Jude 7>, and which is elsewhere said to be `unquenchable,' <Mark 9:43>.
"The use of αιωνιος here shows that the punishment referred to in <2 Thes. 1:9>, is not temporary, but final, and, accordingly, the phraseology shows that its purpose is not remedial but retributive."

From Notes on Thessalonians, by Hogg and Vine, pp 232, 233. (from Vine's Expository Dictionary of Biblical Words) (Copyright (C) 1985, Thomas Nelson Publishers)​

67.96 αιωνιος aji>vdio", on; aijwvnio", on: pertaining to an unlimited duration of time - ‘eternal.’
aji>vdio"ò h{ te aji>vdio" aujtou` duvnami" kai; qeiovth" ‘his eternal power and divine nature’ Ro 1.20.
aijwvnio"ò blhqh`nai eij" to; pu`r to; aijwvnion ‘be thrown into the eternal fire’ Mt 18.8; tou` aijwnivou qeou` ‘of the eternal God’ Ro 16.26.
The most frequent use of αιωνιος in the NT is with zwhv ‘life,’ for example, i{na pa`" oJ pisteuvwn ejn aujtw/` e[ch/ zwh;n aijwvnion ‘so that everyone who believes in him may have eternal life’ Jn 3.15. In combination with zwhv there is evidently not only a temporal element, but also a qualitative distinction. In such contexts, αιωνιος evidently carries certain implications associated with αιωνιος in relationship to divine and supernatural attributes. If one translates ‘eternal life’ as simply ‘never dying,’ there may be serious misunderstandings, since persons may assume that ‘never dying’ refers only to physical existence rather than to ‘spiritual death.’ Accordingly, some translators have rendered ‘eternal life’ as ‘unending real life,’ so as to introduce a qualitative distinction.

Louw, Johannes P. and Nida, Eugene A., Greek-English Lexicon of the New Testament based on Semantic Domains, (New York: United Bible Societies) 1988, 1989.​

αιωνιος aionios. An adjective meaning “eternal,” and found in the LXX in Pss. 24; 77:5; Gen. 21:33, aionios in the NT is used 1. of God (Rom. 16:26), 2. of divine possessions and gifts (2 Cor. 4:18; Heb. 9:14; 1 Pet. 5:10; 1 Tim. 6:16; 2 Th. 2:16, and 3. of the eternal kingdom (2 Pet. 1:11), inheritance (Heb. 9:15), body (2 Cor. 5:1), and even judgment (Heb. 6:2, though cf. Mt. 18:8; 2 Th. 1:9, where the sense is perhaps “unceasing”).

Kittel, Gerhard, and Friedrich, Gerhard, Editors, The Theological Dictionary of the New Testament, Abridged in One Volume, (Grand Rapids, Michigan: William B. Eerdmans Publishing Company) 1985.​

αιωνιος aionios ", ov and a, ov, lasting for an age (aion 3), Plat.: ever-lasting, eternal, Id.

Liddell, H. G., and Scott, Abridged Greek-English Lexicon, (Oxford: Oxford University Press) 1992.​

166 aionios { ahee-o’-nee-os} αιωνιος from 165; TDNT - 1:208,31; adj
AV - eternal 42, everlasting 25, the world began + 5550 2, since the world began + 5550 1, for ever 1; 71
GK - 173 { aionios }
1) without beginning and end, that which always has been and always will be
2) without beginning
3) without end, never to cease, everlasting

Enhanced Strong’s Lexicon, (Oak Harbor, WA: Logos Research Systems, Inc.) 1995.​

CL The Gk. word αιων aion, which is probably derived from aei, … It thus appeared appropriate to later philosophers to use the word both for the dim and distant past, the beginning of the world, and for the far future, eternity (e.g. Plato, Tim. 37d).
Plato (Timoeus, ed. Steph. 3, 37, or ed. Baiter, Orell. et Winck. 712) says, speaking of the universe: …The nature therefore of the animal (living being) was eternal (aionios, before aidios), and this indeed it was impossible to adapt to what was produced (to genneto, to what had a beginning); he thinks to make a moveable image of eternity (aionos), and in adoring the heavens he makes of the eternity permanent in unity a certain eternal image moving in number, … And after unfolding this, he says (p. 38): "But these forms of time imitating eternity (aiona), and rolling round according to number, have had a beginning (gegonen).... For that pattern exists for all eternity (panta aiona estin on), but on the other hand, that which is perpetual (dia telous) throughout all time has had a beginning, and is, and will be." … Aion is what is properly eternal, in contrast with a divine imitation of it in ages of time, the result of the creative action of God which imitated the uncreate as nearly as He could in created ages.. ]
In Plato the term is developed so as to represent a timeless, immeasurable and transcendent super-time, an idea of time in itself. Plutarch and the earlier Stoics appropriate this understanding, and from it the Mysteries of Aion, the god of eternity, could be celebrated in Alexandria, and gnosticism could undertake its own speculations on time.
* * *

NIDNTT Colin Brown​

Wherefore neither in place are things there formed by nature; nor does time cause them to grow old: neither is there any change of anything of those things which are arranged beyond the outermost orbit; but unchangeable, and subject to no influence, having the best and most independent life, they continue for all eternity (aiona). … According to the same word (logon) the completeness of the whole heaven, and the completeness which embraces all time and infinitude is aion, having received this name from existing for ever (apo tou aei einai), immortal (athanatos, undying), and divine." In 10 he goes on to shew that that beginning to be (genesthai) involves the not existing always, which I refer to as shewing what he means by aion. He is proving the unchangeable eternity of the visible universe. That is no business of mine; but it shews what he means by eternity (aion). It cannot be aidion and genesthai at the same time, when, as in Plato, aidios is used as equivalent to aionios​

[Continued next post]

 

[Der Alte]

[Previous post continued]

Philo, the sentence is in De Mundo, 7, en aioni de oute pareleluthen ouden, oute mellei, alla monon iphesteken. Such a definition needs no explanation: in eternity nothing is passed, nothing is about to be, but only subsists. This has the importance of being of the date and Hellenistic Greek of the New Testament, as the others give the regular, and at the same time philosophical force of the word, aion, aionios. Eternity, unchangeable, with no 'was' nor 'will be,' is its proper force, that it can be applied to the whole existence of a thing, so that nothing of its nature was before true or after is true, to telos to periechon. But its meaning is eternity, and eternal. … That is, things that are for a time are put in express contrast with aionia, which are not for a time, be it age or ages, but eternal. Nothing can be more decisive of its positive and specific meaning.
0166 aioniosαιωνιος without beginning or end, eternal, everlasting
LEH lxx lexicon
UBS GNT Dict. # 169 (Str#166)
aionios eternal (of quality rather than of time); unending, everlasting, for all time
αιωνιος (iva Pla., Tim. 38b; Jer 39:40; Ezk 37:26; 2 Th 2:16; Hb 9:12; as v.l. Ac 13:48; 2 Pt 1:11; Bl-D. §59, 2; Mlt.-H. 157), on eternal (since Hyperid. 6, 27; Pla.; inscr., pap., LXX; Ps.-Phoc. 112; Test. 12 Patr.; standing epithet for princely, esp. imperial power: Dit., Or. Index VIII; BGU 176; 303; 309; Sb 7517, 5 [211/2 ad] kuvrio" aij.; al. in pap.; Jos., Ant. 7, 352).

1. without beginning crovnoi" aij. long ages ago Ro 16:25; pro; crovnwn aij. before time began 2 Ti 1:9; Tit 1:2 (on crovno" aij. cf. Dit., Or. 248, 54; 383, 10).
2. without beginning or end; of God (Ps.-Pla., Tim. Locr. 96c qeo;n t. aijwvnion; Inscr. in the Brit. Mus. 894 aij. k. ajqavnato"; Gen 21:33; Is 26:4; 40:28; Bar 4:8 al.; Philo, Plant. 8; 74; Sib. Or., fgm. 3, 17 and 4; PGM 1, 309; 13, 280) Ro 16:26; of the Holy Spirit in Christ Hb 9:14. qrovno" aij. 1 Cl 65:2 (cf. 1 Macc 2:57).
3. without end (Diod. S. 1, 1, 5; 5, 73, 1; 15, 66, 1 dovxa aij. everlasting fame; in Diod. S. 1, 93, 1 the Egyptian dead are said to have passed to their aij. …keep someone forever Phlm 15 (cf. Job 40:28). …On the other hand of eternal life (Maximus Tyr. 6, 1d qeou` zwh; aij.; Diod. S. 8, 15, 3 life meta; to;n qavnaton lasts eij" a{panta aijw`na; Da 12:2; 4 Macc 15:3; PsSol 3, 12; Philo, …carav IPhld inscr.; doxavzesqai aijwnivw/ e[rgw/ be glorified by an everlasting deed IPol 8:1. DHill, Gk. Words and Hebr. Mngs. ’67, 186-201. M-M.

Bauer, Walter, Gingrich, F. Wilbur, and Danker, Frederick W., A Greek-English Lexicon of the New Testament and Other Early Christian Literature, (Chicago: University of Chicago Press) 1979.​

BIBLE STUDY MANUALS - AIONIOS -- AN IN DEPTH STUDY
αιωνιος
• Strong's - Greek 165
• NRSV (the uses of the word in various contexts in the NRSV text):
again, age, course, end, eternal, forever, permanent, time, world, worlds
• CGED (A Concise Greek-English Dictionary of the New Testament, by Barclay M. Newman, New York: United Bible Societies, 1993, page 5):
age; world order; eternity (ap aion or pro aion, from the beginning; eis aion, and the strengthened form eis tous aion, ton aion, always, forever);
• The New International Dictionary of New Testament Theology [NIDNTT], Volume 3 (edited by Colin Brown, Grand Rapids, Michigan: Zondervan, 1978, page 827, 830):
In Plato the term [aion] is developed so as to represent a timeless, immeasurable and transcendent super-time, an idea of time in itself. Plutarch and other earlier Stoics appropriate this understanding, and from it the Mysteries of Aion, the god of eternity, could be celebrated in Alexandria, and gnosticism could undertake its own speculations on time.
The statements of the Johannine [John, 1 John, 2 John, 3 John] writings, … reveal a strong inclination to conceive of a timeless, because post-temporal, eternity… As in the OT [Old Testament], these statements reveal the background conviction that God's life never ends, i.e. that everything belonging to him can also never come to an end…
aion - αιων - age, world
A. "for ever, an unbroken age, perpetuity of time, eternity; the worlds, universe; period of time, age."
Enhanced Strong’s Lexicon, (Oak Harbor, WA: Logos Research Systems, Inc.) 1995, [Online] Available: Logos Library System.
• aionion, aionios – αιωνιον, αιωνιος - eternal
B. "aionios," the adjective corresponding, denoting eternal. It is used of that which in nature is endless, as, e.g., of God, (Rom. 16:26), His power, (1 Tim. 6:16), His glory, (1 Pet. 5:10), the Holy Spirit, (Heb. 9:14), redemption, (Heb. 9:12), salvation, (5:9), life in Christ, (John 3:16), the resurrection body, (2 Cor. 5:1), the future rule of Christ, (2 Pet. 1:11), which is declared to be without end, (Luke 1:33), of sin that never has forgiveness, (Mark 3:29), the judgment of God, (Heb. 6:2), and of fire, one of its instruments, (Matt. 18:8; 25:41; Jude 7)."
i. Rom. 16:26 - " . . .according to the commandment of the eternal God. . ."
ii. 1 Tim. 6:16 - ". . . To Him be honor and eternal dominion! Amen."
iii. 1 Pet. 5:10 - " . . . who called you to His eternal glory in Christ,"
iv. Mark 3:29 - " . . . never has forgiveness, but is guilty of an eternal sin."
v. etc.
SOURCE: Vine, W. E., Vine’s Expository Dictionary of Old and New Testament Words, (Grand Rapids, MI: Fleming H. Revell) 1981, Available: Logos Library System.
• "describes duration, either undefined but not endless, as in Rom. 16:25; 2 Tim. 1:9; Tit. 1:2; or undefined because endless as in Rom. 16:26, and the other sixty–six places in the N.T.
A. Rom. 16:25 - " . . which has been kept secret for long ages past,"
B. Rom 16:26 - ". . . according to the commandment of the eternal God,"
C. 2 Tim. 1:9 - ". . . which was granted us in Christ Jesus from all eternity,"
D. Titus 1:2 - "the hope of eternal life, which God, who cannot lie, promised" long ages ago"
SOURCE: Vine, W. E., Vine’s Expository Dictionary of Old and New Testament Words, (Grand Rapids, MI: Fleming H. Revell) 1981, [Online] Available: Logos Library System)
• Eis tous aionios ton aionion – εις τους αιωνας των αιωνιωον - Forever and Ever, Lit. "into the age of the ages"
A. "unlimited duration of time, with particular focus upon the future - ‘always, forever, forever and ever, eternally."
B. Phil. 4:20 - ". . .to our God and Father be the glory forever and ever."
C. Rev. 19:3 - " . . .Her smoke rises up forever and ever."
D. Rev. 20:20 - "And the devil who deceived them was thrown into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are also; and they will be tormented day and night forever and ever."
SOURCE: Louw, Johannes P. and Nida, Eugene A., Greek-English Lexicon of the New Testament based on Semantic Domains, (New York: United Bible Societies) 1988, 1989, Available: Logos Library System. ​

What do Greek dictionaries say about "aionion" | Christian Apologetics and Research Ministry[/indent]
http://www.carm.org/uni/greekdict.htm
Liddell-Scott-Jones Lexicon of Classical Greek [The classical period extended from ca. 800 BC to ca. 200 AD.]
αιων aion onos, ho, Ion. and Ep. also he, as in Pi.P.4.186, E.Ph.1484: apocop. acc. aio like Poseido, restored by Ahrens (from AB363) in A.Ch.350: (properly aiWon, cf. aevum, v. aiei):--period of existence (to telos to periechon ton tes hekastou zoes chronon . . aion hekastou kekletai Arist.Cael.279a25 ):
I. lifetime, life, psuche te kai aion Il.16.453 ; ek d' ai. pephatai Il.19.27 ; mede toi ai. phthineto Od.5.160 ; leipei tina Il.5.685 ; ap' aionos neos oleo (Zenod. neon) 24.725; teleutan ton aiôna Hdt.1.32 , etc.; aionos sterein tina A.Pr.862 ; aiona dioichnein Id.Eu.315 ; sundiatribein Cratin. 1 ; ai. Aiakidan, periphr. for the Aeacidae, S.Aj.645 s. v. l.; apepneusen aiona E.Fr.801 ; emon kat' aiona A.Th.219 .
2. age, generation, ai. es triton ib.744; ho mellon aion posterity, D.18.199, cf. Pl.Ax.370c.
3. one's life, destiny, lot, S.Tr.34, E.Andr.1215, Fr.30, etc.
II. long space of time, age, aion gignetai 'tis an age, Men.536.5; esp. with Preps., ap' aionos of old, Hes.Th.609, Ev.Luc.1.70; hoi apo tou ai. Rhomaioi D.C. 63.20 ; di' aionos perpetually, A.Ch.26, Eu.563; all one's life long, S. El.1024; di' aionos makrou, apaustou, A.Supp.582,574; ton di' ai. chronon for ever, Id.Ag.554; eis hapanta ton ai. Lycurg.106, Isoc.10.62; eis ton ai. LXX Ge.3.23, al., D.S.21.17, Ev.Jo.8.35, Ps.-Luc. Philopatr.17; eis aiona aionos LXX Ps.131(132).14 ; ex aionos kai heos aionos ib.Je.7.7; ep' ai. ib.Ex.15.18; heos aionos ib.1 Ki.1.22, al.:-- without a Prep., ton hapanta ai. Arist. Cael.279a22; ton aiona Lycurg. 62 , Epicur.Ep.1p.8U.; eternity, opp. chronos, Pl.Ti.37d, cf. Metrod. Fr.37, Ph.1.496,619, Plot.3.7.5, etc.; tous huper tou aionos phobous Epicur.Sent.20 .2. space of time clearly defined and marked out, epoch, age, ho aion houtos this present world, opp. ho mellon, Ev.Matt.13.22, cf. Ep.Rom.12.2; ho nun ai. 1 Ep.Tim.6.17, 2 Ep.Tim.4.10:--hence in pl., the ages, i.e. eternity, Phld.D.3 Fr.84; eis pantas tous ai. LXX To.13.4 ; eis tous ai.ib.Si.45.24, al., Ep.Rom.1.25, etc.; eis tous ai. ton aionon LXX 4 Ma.18.24 , Ep.Phil.4.20, etc.; apo ton ai., pro ton ai., Ep.Eph.3.9, 1Cor.2.7; ta tele ton ai. ib.10.11.
• • • •
http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/cgi-bin/resolveform

 

[SkyWriting]

You are assuming Hell against all evidence, for it is just not there, except as a mental overlay on top of every text. Why do you assume the fire of God is for punishment and torture, and not for purification?

It will end.

King James Bible
And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.

 

[Der Alte]

Be aware that I don't give a fig for what the Jews believed then or now, and certainly not the Jewish Encyclopedia. It was quite enough to slog through the theo-illogical mess of the KJV. Further, do you suppose that I have not dealt with each of the verses you quoted, from a UR perspective?

You should care what the Jews at the time of Jesus believed, Jesus certainly did. Virtually all of the people Jesus talked with or ministered to were Jews. Many times Jesus, speaking to Jews, correcting their beliefs, said "You have heard it said...but I say to you..." But Jesus NEVER told them their belief in a place of eternal, unending punishment was wrong. Jesus' teaching on the fate of the wicked reinforced the Jewish belief and as I pointed out twice Jesus mentioned a fate worse than death.

 

[Der Alte]

It will end.
King James Bible
And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.

The lake of fire passages, in context.

Rev 2:11 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; He that overcometh shall not be hurt of the second death.
Rev 20:6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.
Rev 19:20 And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone.​

And 1000 years later, the beast and the false prophet, who is a person, are still in the lake of fire.

Rev 20:10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.
Rev 20:14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
Rev 20:15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.
Rev 21:8 But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.​

The lake of fire [LOF] is called “the second death” twice in Rev. vss. 20:14 and 21:8. While this is true, Rev. never says that anyone is thrown into the LOF then they die. The terms the “lake of fire” and “ the second death” are interchangeable, “the lake of fire” is “the second death” and the “second death” is “he lake of fire,” thus we can see that it is not synonymous with death or destruction.
We also know that being thrown into the LOF is not synonymous with death from Rev 19:20, where the beast and the false prophet, who is a person, are thrown into the LOF and 1000 years later in 20:10 the devil, is thrown into the LOF. Three living beings, are thrown into the LOF but they do not die, they are tormented day and night for ever and ever. There is not one verse in Revelation which says anyone or anything is thrown into the LOF then they/it dies.
Rev 20:14 says death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. Death is the point in time end of life, it has no physical presence and cannot be literally thrown anywhere but there is a scriptural answer which does not involve jumping through hoops mixing literal and figurative in one sentence, there is a death and hell which can be thrown into the LOF.

Rev 6:8 And I looked, and behold a pale horse: and his name that sat on him was Death, and Hell followed with him. And power was given unto them over the fourth part of the earth, to kill with sword, and with hunger, and with death, and with the beasts of the earth.​

The angel of death and the demon of hell are thrown into the LOF and their power to kill ended.

 

[Lazarus Short]

Some areas of scripture cover such topics more thoroughly than others.


Matthew 23:33 "You snakes! You brood of vipers! How will you escape being condemned to hell?

2 Peter 2:4 For if God did not spare angels when they sinned, but sent them to hell,
putting them in chains of darkness to be held for judgment

James 3:6 The tongue also is a fire, It corrupts the whole body, sets the whole course
of one's life on fire, and is itself set on fire by hell.

Matthew 10:28 Do not be afraid of those who kill the body in hell. ...
Fear only God, who can destroy both soul and body in hell.

Luke 12:5 But I will show you whom you should fear: Fear him who after your body has been
killed, has authority to throw you into hell. Yes, I tell you, fear him.

Deuteronomy 32:22 For a fire will be kindled by my wrath, one that will burn to the depths of hell.


Fear not for God will fix this problem:


King James Bible
And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.





You are correct, torment is not the same as torture. The rich man (John 5:39-47) suffered torment as James describes above.

It is not enough to multiply verses containing the word "Hell." To understand, you must dig deeper and see the meanings of the words translated as "Hell." Given that and a knowledge of pagan mythology, and everything falls into place.

 

[dayhiker]

Yes, when I realized that much of our view on hell where created by theologians in the west who didn't know know Greek it was easy to see
that just going with western thought wouldn't lead to the way the eastern church saw things.

While I did some research, I basically went back to that the Spirit of God spoke to me when I was 12, 13 and 14 before I started reading theology in Christian books.

 

[Chriliman]

You are assuming Hell against all evidence, for it is just not there, except as a mental overlay on top of every text. Why do you assume the fire of God is for punishment and torture, and not for purification? A study of what God says Himself about His fire demonstrates clearly that it is for cleansing and purification. In this sense, God even describes Himself as soap.

I am a newcomer to this forum, but not to this topic, for I studied it in the SHT (Standard Hell Text, aka, KJV) for over a year - to resolve this one question in my mind. Outside the KJV, I found that Hell came into Christianity from pagan sources, and it goes far deeper than the Greek Hades or the Latin Infernum.

Anyway, do you really expect to topple the well-developed concept of Universal Reconciliation by quoting a single "proof" text? Funny! OTOH, I have examined every book, every chapter, and every verse of the KJV to come to the conclusions I have.

Further, do you really grasp what I have said? If the text you quoted proves Hell, then Jesus is sending countless numbers of those cursed souls to everlasting punishment, along with bits of the Spirit of His Father. Absurd and blasphemous.

This is an interesting topic. A question that always pops into my mind is: What about the unpardonable sin? If universal reconciliation is true, then why would Jesus even mention an unpardonable sin?

Matthew 12:32
"Anyone who speaks a word against the Son of Man will be forgiven, but anyone who speaks against the Holy Spirit will not be forgiven, either in this age or in the age to come."

Jesus says "either in this age or in the age to come". Are we in the "age to come" right now or is it still to come? If we're in the age to come right now then if anyone commits the unpardonable sin in this age they will not be forgiven, but will they be forgiven in some unspecified future age? If not then universal reconciliation is not true.

Its seems that in order to believe in universal reconciliation, one has to add some unspecified future age that is not in scripture in order to get around what Jesus says in Matthew 12:32.

Its seems likely that anyone who commits the unpardonable sin, is telling God that they don't want to exist, since He is God, therefore God removes them from existence, which would mean that all who want to be saved through Jesus Christ will get to, but not that all who've ever existed will be saved.

Thanks for your consideration of my thoughts and questions

 

[Hillsage]

Matthew 25:41 “Then He will also say to those on His left, ‘Depart from Me, accursed ones, into the eternal fire which has been prepared for the devil and his angels;
Apparently God DID make it.
I quite agree.

Many scholarly translations fall short of the 'orthodox' definition though.

Concordant Literal Translation; Matt 25: 41
"Then shall He be declaring to those also at His left, 'Go from Me, you cursed, into the fire eonian, made ready for the Adversary and his messengers.

Young's Literal Translation; Matthew 25:41
Then shall he say also to those on the left hand, Go ye from me, the cursed, to the fire, the age-during, that hath been prepared for the Devil and his messengers;

Rotherhams translation; Matt 25:41
Then, will he say unto those also, on his left hand: Depart ye from me, accursed ones! Into the age-abiding fire, which hath been prepared for the adversary and his messengers;

 

[Der Alte]

It is not enough to multiply verses containing the word "Hell." To understand, you must dig deeper and see the meanings of the words translated as "Hell." Given that and a knowledge of pagan mythology, and everything falls into place.

Jesus was a Jew, all 12 of the disciples were Jews, virtually all the people that Jesus spoke to and ministered to during His earthly walk were Jews. But you reject and ignore what those Jews believed about sheol and Ge hinnom, which they understood to be a place of eternal, unending punishment, and concoct some imaginary connection to pagan mythology. You'll have to explain and show proof how the Christian view on hell came from pagan mythology and not from the Jews since Christianity came out of Judaism.