Universal reconciliation

[Lazarus Short]

I can only respond to what you say a little at a time unless you say what your full position is and what your real motive to believe that position before I can really make a full assessment. Food for thought Jerry Kelso

To do that I would need to copy + paste my entire 176-page book in this thread, and I will only share bits of it until the thing is copyrighted. However, a rough draft can be read here:

http://tentmaker.org/forum/hellbusters-hallow/heaven-yes-hell-no/

 

[Hillsage]

To do that I would need to copy + paste my entire 176-page book in this thread, and I will only share bits of it until the thing is copyrighted. However, a rough draft can be read here:

http://tentmaker.org/forum/hellbusters-hallow/heaven-yes-hell-no/

I went to 'look', and you're right, it's pretty rough at this point.

So, I'm going to post this URL because it is a 255 page book which has already been written. It's been the best resource book I've found in the 40 years that I've believed in 'Christian Universalism' or 'Ultimate Reconciliation'. If you've not read it Lazarus Short, I'd highly recommend it. They also believe in "freely you have received and freely you shall give". I still bought a box of them just to give to people though.

http://www.tentmaker.org/books/hope_beyond_hell.pdf

 

[Lazarus Short]

I went to 'look', and you're right, it's pretty rough at this point.

So, I'm going to post this URL because it is a 255 page book which has already been written. It's been the best resource book I've found in the 40 years that I've believed in 'Christian Universalism' or 'Ultimate Reconciliation'. If you've not read it Lazarus Short, I'd highly recommend it. They also believe in "freely you have received and freely you shall give". I still bought a box of them just to give to people though.

http://www.tentmaker.org/books/hope_beyond_hell.pdf

I'm aware of the book, but have not read it - long pdf books on the www are difficult for me. I like ink-and-paper books. I refrained from reading any other books on the subject while "Heaven, Yes - Hell, No" was in process. So, did your "look" sample the whole document or just the Genesis chapter? Yeah, it could be smoother there - the coverage of each chapter is choppy, but that ended after the Psalms.

 

[Hillsage]

I'm aware of the book, but have not read it - long pdf books on the www are difficult for me. I like ink-and-paper books. I refrained from reading any other books on the subject while "Heaven, Yes - Hell, No" was in process. So, did your "look" sample the whole document or just the Genesis chapter? Yeah, it could be smoother there - the coverage of each chapter is choppy, but that ended after the Psalms.

Maybe I missed something. I went to the URL and it was Tentmaker's forum. Your first post just gave a chapter/heading index. then I just saw the forum and posting dialogue which was many pages long going back to 2014. Maybe I didn't see what you meant for us to see????

 

[nothead]

lazarusshort,

1. The subject is about hell and about UR which deals with purgatory and the fire of God to purify. You seem to believe in UR and that the fire of God only has one definition and that is to purify. Fire can destroy or purify. God sent a flood the first time and promised he would not send a flood again for the next time would be fire and there is no scripture to prove purification by fire in the scripture after one is in hell. Many quote 1 Corinthians 3 in the believers works being judged by fire which has nothing to do with those in hell.

2. It is fine if you don't want to debate because all you want is to give your opinion of what you think the scripture means and then leave. That is your choice.

3. It depends on what your definition of scholarship is. Everybody has hermeneutics whether they know it or not but it doesn't mean they rightly divide the word or are scholarly.

4. Well that is fine you admit where you understand and what you don't and that you are like berean to see about the truth and so do I. I agree that UR is not 100 % but I don't agree that it is closer than what hell really is and what the purpose for it is. I don't even disagree with it having a good motive because if you are concerned about one's soul and it's destination who wants them to suffer such torment? However, I don't see where the scripture shows it to be true for many reasons. If I just go by my logic or what I think is common sense and allow it to dictate the scripture then I would not be rightly dividing the word. This doesn't mean that we are not to use common sense when trying to rightly dividing the words in the usage of hermeneutics but it is not to dictate the scripture. The truth of the word is of utmost importance to search out and learn not what our common sense and feeling always tell us for they can be like our conscience and lead us astray.
The reason for debate is not merely arguing a point as it is in learning what belief is being said and if it agrees with the word and reasoning in the fact that iron sharpens iron when it comes to learn the biblical truth.
I can only respond to what you say a little at a time unless you say what your full position is and what your real motive to believe that position before I can really make a full assessment. Food for thought Jerry Kelso

Maybe the consideration hermeneutically should be why Hell is mentioned at all, not whether Hell is forever in the literal sense.

The problem with a Forever Hell is basically this means God's love for men has stopped and Judgement is harsh and forever. The reality is that we consider our measly 75 years on earth SO IMPORTANT in what we say and do, it CAN compare to a literal eternity. And although I don't MAKE a definitive treatise on what I speculate upon, I BELIEVE God's love will ultimately trump over his wrath. Simple. For every man.

I had a dream recently where these smudgy short and fat and ugly bumpkins were in a chorus assembly, some with beaks and some with triple chins, none smiling and all morose in eye and countenance, fat in appearance and dumpy. They were about less than half a human's height, and darkness pervaded them. We tried to make them sing, and one would pipe up a horrendous squawk totally out of sync with another coming forth. And this is how I see hell in sign and symbol. Those not glorified will seem to be just like this, relationally in contrast to the saints.

Those who do not toe the line will be suffering for sure. And the Fear of God is still the beginning of wisdom. The Peace of God in Spirit alleviates this. It is the only balm and cure for.

 

[Lazarus Short]

Maybe I missed something. I went to the URL and it was Tentmaker's forum. Your first post just gave a chapter/heading index. then I just saw the forum and posting dialogue which was many pages long going back to 2014. Maybe I didn't see what you meant for us to see????

I began that thread in the fall of 2014, and the book is spread among 13 or 14 thread pages, with comments by others. If you saw page 1 it was the start of the book. Rough, yes, but like Isaiah, it was line upon line, precept upon precept, like a tiny seed with the fully-formed idea within it, but not yet fleshed out. It was a mustard-seed project.

 

[Lazarus Short]

Maybe the consideration hermeneutically should be why Hell is mentioned at all, not whether Hell is forever in the literal sense.

The problem with a Forever Hell is basically this means God's love for men has stopped and Judgement is harsh and forever. The reality is that we consider our measly 75 years on earth SO IMPORTANT in what we say and do, it CAN compare to a literal eternity. And although I don't MAKE a definitive treatise on what I speculate upon, I BELIEVE God's love will ultimately trump over his wrath. Simple. For every man.

I had a dream recently where these smudgy short and fat and ugly bumpkins were in a chorus assembly, some with beaks and some with triple chins, none smiling and all morose in eye and countenance, fat in appearance and dumpy. They were about less than half a human's height, and darkness pervaded them. We tried to make them sing, and one would pipe up a horrendous squawk totally out of sync with another coming forth. And this is how I see hell in sign and symbol. Those not glorified will seem to be just like this, relationally in contrast to the saints.

Those who do not toe the line will be suffering for sure. And the Fear of God is still the beginning of wisdom. The Peace of God in Spirit alleviates this. It is the only balm and cure for.

Among other things, my investigation of the KJV ran along two main lines.

1. Why "Hell"? After much research, I concluded that the concept and word are of pagan origin. To do that, I had to run the word "Hell" to ground, and that required an OED (Oxford English Dictionary, of which I have a copy) and readings in pagan mythology. After delving into my own Bible's references, looking at Strong's & Young's Concordances, the word began to look suspicious. The reference-standard OED made it very clear that the word in all its forms (hel, hell, helle, etc) was pagan. A look into the mythology of pagan northern Europe only confirmed it, and that was layered onto the Latin and Greek mythology which had already begun the syncretic process. Among other things, I found that "Hel" was a goddess or ogress of north European myth, and she was thought to rule an underworld of the same name. So that leaves us with "Hel" which is pagan, and "Hell" which is Christian. It makes no sense to me - how about you?

2. Later in my research, I began to come up against the time issue. Just like Hell, I found that certain words had been translated according to doctrine rather than meaning. I know that Greek scholarship is better today than in 1611, but even so, I don't see how some words could have been rendered as "for ever," "forever," and the like when the Greek word clearly meant a time period - long, but not forever as we think of forever. I went often to Bible Hub's interlinear text, and though I won't claim to be a Greek scholar, the results were not in doubt. Further, I'm not exactly a genius or a theologian, but with a few simple literary tools, I've done what most anyone can do with the right questions and an open mind.

 

[nothead]

Among other things, my investigation of the KJV ran along two main lines.

1. Why "Hell"? After much research, I concluded that the concept and word are of pagan origin. To do that, I had to run the word "Hell" to ground, and that required an OED (Oxford English Dictionary, of which I have a copy) and readings in pagan mythology. After delving into my own Bible's references, looking at Strong's & Young's Concordances, the word began to look suspicious. The reference-standard OED made it very clear that the word in all its forms (hel, hell, helle, etc) was pagan. A look into the mythology of pagan northern Europe only confirmed it, and that was layered onto the Latin and Greek mythology which had already begun the syncretic process. Among other things, I found that "Hel" was a goddess or ogress of north European myth, and she was thought to rule an underworld of the same name. So that leaves us with "Hel" which is pagan, and "Hell" which is Christian. It makes no sense to me - how about you?

I just go by what the scripture says. Jesus warned of an afterlife of possible regret and suffering. This may not be literally forever although it would seem so, since suffering especially intensely will seem forever. The aionos ou aionos, ages of the ages pertaining to hell for me is not an empirical number of eternity. It is simply a very long time. It might be a very "long" time.

2. Later in my research, I began to come up against the time issue. Just like Hell, I found that certain words had been translated according to doctrine rather than meaning. I know that Greek scholarship is better today than in 1611, but even so, I don't see how some words could have been rendered as "for ever," "forever," and the like when the Greek word clearly meant a time period - long, but not forever as we think of forever. I went often to Bible Hub's interlinear text, and though I won't claim to be a Greek scholar, the results were not in doubt. Further, I'm not exactly a genius or a theologian, but with a few simple literary tools, I've done what most anyone can do with the right questions and an open mind.

Oh, you are addressing the same thing. Yayuh, okaydokay. A mathematician's number for eternity is literal. A biblical view will make it LESS literal since the authors are not mathematicians.

Don't want to go to hell for sure. RATHER I would like a nicer place. The holy army of angels might be nice. Don't think RESTING on a hospital bed and being attended to is nice, although old people suffering might think so.

 

[Lazarus Short]

I just go by what the scripture says. Jesus warned of an afterlife of possible regret and suffering. This may not be literally forever although it would seem so, since suffering especially intensely will seem forever. The aionos ou aionos, ages of the ages pertaining to hell for me is not an empirical number of eternity. It is simply a very long time. It might be a very "long" time.

Oh, you are addressing the same thing. Yayuh, okaydokay. A mathematician's number for eternity is literal. A biblical view will make it LESS literal since the authors are not mathematicians.

Don't want to go to hell for sure. RATHER I would like a nicer place. The holy army of angels might be nice. Don't think RESTING on a hospital bed and being attended to is nice, although old people suffering might think so.

Yes, I agree that Jesus warned of outer darkness, regret, weeping and gnashing of teeth, and so on, but I have noticed a real failure on the part of God to warn us of Hell in His Word, that is, if such a place exists. I found also that He fails to claim to have created it, and His Law prescribes no punishment worse than simple death. For this and other reasons, I take Jesus' warnings as not pertaining to eternal punishment, but to age-long consequences of our failings in the here-and-now. If we are to believe I Corinthians 15, even these consequences must be lifted in the fulness of time, so that God may become All in all. However, for most, the Hell mindset will not permit them the freedom to believe it. Either we are sinners in the hands of an angry God, or we are (or are going to be) children of our Loving Heavenly Father. Jesus taught the latter, as do I.

 

[jerry kelso]

Maybe the consideration hermeneutically should be why Hell is mentioned at all, not whether Hell is forever in the literal sense.

The problem with a Forever Hell is basically this means God's love for men has stopped and Judgement is harsh and forever. The reality is that we consider our measly 75 years on earth SO IMPORTANT in what we say and do, it CAN compare to a literal eternity. And although I don't MAKE a definitive treatise on what I speculate upon, I BELIEVE God's love will ultimately trump over his wrath. Simple. For every man.

I had a dream recently where these smudgy short and fat and ugly bumpkins were in a chorus assembly, some with beaks and some with triple chins, none smiling and all morose in eye and countenance, fat in appearance and dumpy. They were about less than half a human's height, and darkness pervaded them. We tried to make them sing, and one would pipe up a horrendous squawk totally out of sync with another coming forth. And this is how I see hell in sign and symbol. Those not glorified will seem to be just like this, relationally in contrast to the saints.

Those who do not toe the line will be suffering for sure. And the Fear of God is still the beginning of wisdom. The Peace of God in Spirit alleviates this. It is the only balm and cure for.

nothead,

1. Why is hell mentioned?
Hell was prepared for the devil and his angels Matthew 25:41. Satan was the first to sin Ezekiel 28:15 and the other angels who fell from heaven and who left their first estate etc. 2 Peter 2:4, Jude 1:6.
We could assume God may have given an opportunity for grace to the angels but we are not told that he did. And because of the nature of the angels already having firsthand knowledge of good and bad could be a possibility that they might not have received an opportunity for grace.
The angels were made immortal already and had no pronouncement of being able to die. Man was made immortal or at least the possibility to live forever but they had no knowledge of the difference between good and evil Genesis 2:15-25 and Genesis 3:1-24 with 22 being specific to knowing.

2. Because of the fall of man God had decided to pronounce judgement of physical death on man because of spiritual death of sin. God would use man that sinned as a vehicle to redeem man as seen in Genesis 3:15; putting enmity between the woman and the serpent and between his seed and hers; it shall bruise thy head and thou shalt bruise his heel. This deals with the conflict between the two seeds of good and evil and how that Satan would bruise the head of Christ and Christ would bruise his heel. This would happen at Calvary where the war would be won by Christ over sin and death and hell and death. John said, Jesus was the Lamb of God who would take away the sins of the world John 1:29 and in Revelation 1:18 he had the keys (authority) of hell and death.

3. Satan is immortal already and will be in the lake of fire forever with the false prophet and the beast or antichrist leader in the tribulation of the NWO. They will be tormented day and night which is specific as all the time in our 24 hour period forever and ever. Those who are not found written in the book of life will be cast into the lake of fire. This will be all the sinners from Adam till the GWTJ.

4. Psalm 9:17; Isaiah 66:24-42, Daniel 12:2 predicted and pictured eternal punishment.
The word forever is argued to be for an age or period of time. The Hebrew word olam translated everlasting in Daniel 12:2 literally means eternity, time without end, time out of mind everlasting, perpetual, forever, and always. Dake says on pg. 764 of God's plan for man that olam is the equivalent of the Greek aionious, which is used of the everlasting God (Romans 16:26; 1 Timothy 6:16; Revelation 15:7) and many other scriptures. So the age or period may be true of temporary things but never endless things.

5. Hell is forever in the literal sense just as Heaven is as literal sense for those who serve and obey God. If one does not believe this then the only other alternative is not to believe in God and have no purpose on this earth pertaining to him and all we do is live and die. That is why Paul said, he died daily, not to the flesh, but putting his life on the line for the cause of Christ each day for he believed in the resurrection of life and going to heaven for the righteous otherwise everything they did for Christ was in vain. Without resurrection of the body to live forever our eternal spirit would be hung in suspended animation of the lack of completion of the process of living forever and there would be no purpose to live for Christ and no goal to achieve as a reward of that purpose and destiny.

6. Forever hell stops God's love is your opinion because you see God as totally reconciling every single sinner after death. UR is all about God reconciling the whole world back to himself in the very end so that there will be no sin and death anywhere even in hell. That is not substantiated in the scripture.

7. 2 Corinthians 5:18,19; God reconciles man to himself by Jesus Christ and through his salvation. He in turn has given us the ministry of reconciliation through the preaching of his word and by the conviction of the Holy Spirit by our witness of him.

8. Sinners still have to make a freewill choice to accept and serve God. The work on the cross of reconciling the world to himself is not charging their sins to them but making the way of being delivered from their sins. If their sins were not charged to them in the sense of sins forgiven personally of the individual past, present and future then every man would need no grace to come to God or no need to repent or live for him at all because everything would be forgiven of individuals whether they were believers or sinners.

9. UR's believe in temporary punishment and it is a purgatory until the person will be refined and come to God.

10. Jesus never preached this because he talked about Lazarus and the rich man which was a true story because Jesus never used a real name in his parables for they were mere illustrations about truth. Back then there was a great gulf between the righteous who was at peace and the sinner who was physically tormented in the flame wanted Lazarus to dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool his tongue and Abraham reminded him of his life on earth and that was the result of his suffering in hell. The rich man pleaded to warn his brothers on earth so they could testify of the place of torment and not go there. Abraham said, they have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them. The rich man thought if one came back from the dead they would repent and the reply was; if they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded though one rose from the dead.
Just as the rich man could not leave hell and go to Abraham's bosom so no man in hell today or in the future etc. will be able to go to heaven's paradise.

7. As far as judgement of forever torment being harsh is not a valid reason against forever torment. One second in hell will be too harsh for those recipients. Two, they won't know the difference between a small amount of time or a long amount of time because time will not be measured or known because of being eternal.

8. God's love has already triumphed over sin, hell and death spiritually Revelation1:18. The restitution of all things has to be completed for all things to come to final fruition of no more sin, hell and death on earth so the whole universe will be in harmony.

9. Anyone can dream but the dream still has to agree with the word of God.
The degree of suffering will be due to their works of sin they committed Revelation 20:11-15. The righteous will be judged separately and in heaven and for their works of building on the foundation of the church etc. and will either turn to wood, hay, and stubble. Positions of rulership will differ depending on the works for God.

10. The only balm for the cure of sin is the blood of Christ applied to one's life, a consecrated disciple who carries their cross each day and who is a witness for God and by truly abiding in Christ and not looking back or forsaking God and changing masters. The peace is the result that comes from salvation and being reconciled to Christ personally by his finished work of the cross and resurrection all the way through till we die. Once death is final so is judgement whether to Heaven's paradise eternal or Hell's torment eternal.
God's ways are not our ways and his love is everlasting but his Spirit will not always strive with man who does not obey him while living his earthly life and judgement was mirrored in the theocracy of the jewish nation and their blessings and cursing system and the civil law of governments mirror this basic principle.
I don't like to think of forever punishment for anyone necessarily but God only teaches forever punishment and does not teach purgatory or refinement till they finally learn their lesson. I would think that one moment in hell would be enough for them to get the picture and repent. So the UR position is based on feelings and misconceptions of God, love and judgement and is not biblically true. Jerry kelso

 

[nothead]

nothead,

1. Why is hell mentioned?
Hell was prepared for the devil and his angels Matthew 25:41. Satan was the first to sin Ezekiel 28:15 and the other angels who fell from heaven and who left their first estate etc. 2 Peter 2:4, Jude 1:6.
We could assume God may have given an opportunity for grace to the angels but we are not told that he did. And because of the nature of the angels already having firsthand knowledge of good and bad could be a possibility that they might not have received an opportunity for grace.
The angels were made immortal already and had no pronouncement of being able to die. Man was made immortal or at least the possibility to live forever but they had no knowledge of the difference between good and evil Genesis 2:15-25 and Genesis 3:1-24 with 22 being specific to knowing.

2. Because of the fall of man God had decided to pronounce judgement of physical death on man because of spiritual death of sin. God would use man that sinned as a vehicle to redeem man as seen in Genesis 3:15; putting enmity between the woman and the serpent and between his seed and hers; it shall bruise thy head and thou shalt bruise his heel. This deals with the conflict between the two seeds of good and evil and how that Satan would bruise the head of Christ and Christ would bruise his heel. This would happen at Calvary where the war would be won by Christ over sin and death and hell and death. John said, Jesus was the Lamb of God who would take away the sins of the world John 1:29 and in Revelation 1:18 he had the keys (authority) of hell and death.

3. Satan is immortal already and will be in the lake of fire forever with the false prophet and the beast or antichrist leader in the tribulation of the NWO. They will be tormented day and night which is specific as all the time in our 24 hour period forever and ever. Those who are not found written in the book of life will be cast into the lake of fire. This will be all the sinners from Adam till the GWTJ.

4. Psalm 9:17; Isaiah 66:24-42, Daniel 12:2 predicted and pictured eternal punishment.
The word forever is argued to be for an age or period of time. The Hebrew word olam translated everlasting in Daniel 12:2 literally means eternity, time without end, time out of mind everlasting, perpetual, forever, and always. Dake says on pg. 764 of God's plan for man that olam is the equivalent of the Greek aionious, which is used of the everlasting God (Romans 16:26; 1 Timothy 6:16; Revelation 15:7) and many other scriptures. So the age or period may be true of temporary things but never endless things.

5. Hell is forever in the literal sense just as Heaven is as literal sense for those who serve and obey God. If one does not believe this then the only other alternative is not to believe in God and have no purpose on this earth pertaining to him and all we do is live and die. That is why Paul said, he died daily, not to the flesh, but putting his life on the line for the cause of Christ each day for he believed in the resurrection of life and going to heaven for the righteous otherwise everything they did for Christ was in vain. Without resurrection of the body to live forever our eternal spirit would be hung in suspended animation of the lack of completion of the process of living forever and there would be no purpose to live for Christ and no goal to achieve as a reward of that purpose and destiny.

6. Forever hell stops God's love is your opinion because you see God as totally reconciling every single sinner after death. UR is all about God reconciling the whole world back to himself in the very end so that there will be no sin and death anywhere even in hell. That is not substantiated in the scripture.

7. 2 Corinthians 5:18,19; God reconciles man to himself by Jesus Christ and through his salvation. He in turn has given us the ministry of reconciliation through the preaching of his word and by the conviction of the Holy Spirit by our witness of him.

8. Sinners still have to make a freewill choice to accept and serve God. The work on the cross of reconciling the world to himself is not charging their sins to them but making the way of being delivered from their sins. If their sins were not charged to them in the sense of sins forgiven personally of the individual past, present and future then every man would need no grace to come to God or no need to repent or live for him at all because everything would be forgiven of individuals whether they were believers or sinners.

9. UR's believe in temporary punishment and it is a purgatory until the person will be refined and come to God.

10. Jesus never preached this because he talked about Lazarus and the rich man which was a true story because Jesus never used a real name in his parables for they were mere illustrations about truth. Back then there was a great gulf between the righteous who was at peace and the sinner who was physically tormented in the flame wanted Lazarus to dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool his tongue and Abraham reminded him of his life on earth and that was the result of his suffering in hell. The rich man pleaded to warn his brothers on earth so they could testify of the place of torment and not go there. Abraham said, they have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them. The rich man thought if one came back from the dead they would repent and the reply was; if they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded though one rose from the dead.
Just as the rich man could not leave hell and go to Abraham's bosom so no man in hell today or in the future etc. will be able to go to heaven's paradise.

7. As far as judgement of forever torment being harsh is not a valid reason against forever torment. One second in hell will be too harsh for those recipients. Two, they won't know the difference between a small amount of time or a long amount of time because time will not be measured or known because of being eternal.

8. God's love has already triumphed over sin, hell and death spiritually Revelation1:18. The restitution of all things has to be completed for all things to come to final fruition of no more sin, hell and death on earth so the whole universe will be in harmony.

9. Anyone can dream but the dream still has to agree with the word of God.
The degree of suffering will be due to their works of sin they committed Revelation 20:11-15. The righteous will be judged separately and in heaven and for their works of building on the foundation of the church etc. and will either turn to wood, hay, and stubble. Positions of rulership will differ depending on the works for God.

10. The only balm for the cure of sin is the blood of Christ applied to one's life, a consecrated disciple who carries their cross each day and who is a witness for God and by truly abiding in Christ and not looking back or forsaking God and changing masters. The peace is the result that comes from salvation and being reconciled to Christ personally by his finished work of the cross and resurrection all the way through till we die. Once death is final so is judgement whether to Heaven's paradise eternal or Hell's torment eternal.
God's ways are not our ways and his love is everlasting but his Spirit will not always strive with man who does not obey him while living his earthly life and judgement was mirrored in the theocracy of the jewish nation and their blessings and cursing system and the civil law of governments mirror this basic principle.
I don't like to think of forever punishment for anyone necessarily but God only teaches forever punishment and does not teach purgatory or refinement till they finally learn their lesson. I would think that one moment in hell would be enough for them to get the picture and repent. So the UR position is based on feelings and misconceptions of God, love and judgement and is not biblically true. Jerry kelso

I just read your first sentence. I don't like plethoras of plenitude and don't know why you carry on so.

Why is hell mentioned? To put the Fear of God into you? I think so. What do you think?

 

[nothead]

Yes, I agree that Jesus warned of outer darkness, regret, weeping and gnashing of teeth, and so on, but I have noticed a real failure on the part of God to warn us of Hell in His Word, that is, if such a place exists. I found also that He fails to claim to have created it, and His Law prescribes no punishment worse than simple death. For this and other reasons, I take Jesus' warnings as not pertaining to eternal punishment, but to age-long consequences of our failings in the here-and-now. If we are to believe I Corinthians 15, even these consequences must be lifted in the fulness of time, so that God may become All in all. However, for most, the Hell mindset will not permit them the freedom to believe it. Either we are sinners in the hands of an angry God, or we are (or are going to be) children of our Loving Heavenly Father. Jesus taught the latter, as do I.

The Chaff being burned is total immolation. I am not against this, since God gave us breath as a gift, and He can certainly take it away. It could be for me that some go to a "purgatory" of sorts where they suffer and regret.

Don't like that place either. I would rather go where the saints are. I will follow them to the ends of the universe. FIGHTING the good fight. Being loyal and trustworthy to the end, or not, forever.

 

[Albion]

I just go by what the scripture says. Jesus warned of an afterlife of possible regret and suffering. This may not be literally forever although it would seem so, since suffering especially intensely will seem forever. The aionos ou aionos, ages of the ages pertaining to hell for me is not an empirical number of eternity. It is simply a very long time. It might be a very "long" time.

Good point, nothead.

If I were to go back to the OP after all that's been said since, I'd say that "yes" it is a heresy to assert universal reconciliation, not because there isn't some Biblical evidence that leans that way, or because we can't be sure that there isn't eternal punishment, but because dogmatizing on universalism, i.e. saying it's "the" correct answer, is unjustified.

 

[nothead]

Good point, nothead.

If I were to go back to the OP after all that's been said since, I'd say that "yes" it is a heresy to assert universal reconciliation, not because there isn't some Biblical evidence that leans that way, or because we can't be sure that there isn't eternal punishment, but because dogmatizing on universalism, i.e. saying it's "the" correct answer, is unjustified.

It makes God seem less like a God with a Hugh Stick in His hand.

Which is the impetus of Unitarian Universalism and other forms of Universalism. But an honest theologian will attend to text only.

 

[Lazarus Short]

The Chaff being burned is total immolation. I am not against this, since God gave us breath as a gift, and He can certainly take it away. It could be for me that some go to a "purgatory" of sorts where they suffer and regret.

Don't like that place either. I would rather go where the saints are. I will follow them to the ends of the universe. FIGHTING the good fight. Being loyal and trustworthy to the end, or not, forever.

Dross, chaff, tares, goats, wood, hay and stubble - the prevailing opinion is that these things represent the wicked, the evildoers, the unrighteous. It is an us versus them paradigm. However, we know that the Breath/Spirit of Life is in us from God, but the sin nature is there too. In this life, it's always saint and sinner in one, but it will not always be so. The parable of the wheat and chaff makes it very clear, if we know the nature of the wheat: the kernel and the chaff are together until the end when they are threshed. The grain kernel is saved and the chaff is separated and carried off by the wind. No, it is not us versus them - it is a division in each of us. Jesus does the threshing, and I know the Bible says that His (winnowing) fan is in His hand, to thresh each of us.

 

[Lazarus Short]

Good point, nothead.

If I were to go back to the OP after all that's been said since, I'd say that "yes" it is a heresy to assert universal reconciliation, not because there isn't some Biblical evidence that leans that way, or because we can't be sure that there isn't eternal punishment, but because dogmatizing on universalism, i.e. saying it's "the" correct answer, is unjustified.

[puts on asbestos suit] So, why is eternal torture in fire not heresy? There is some Biblical evidence for it, "that leans that way," in fact I first learned UR from a minister who admitted that the Bible appears to teach Eternal Torture, Eternal Destruction and Universal Reconciliation. We can't be 100% sure what will happen after we die, for the Bible does not lay it out in complete detail, BUT the ET-crowd never hesitates to dogmatize. I say, study the Bible with an open mind, and determine for yourself which is more consistent with the Scriptures as a whole. My opinion falls to UR, but I know there are lots of folks in the other two camps. I will say that from where I stand, ET looks like a Gospel of fear, and how is that "good news"?

 

[Albion]

[puts on asbestos suit] So, why is eternal torture in fire not heresy?

Because that is the official or standard POV of historic Christianity. Of course, nothing is a heresy to the heretic; the word is applied by the body against dissenters.

My opinion falls to UR, but I know there are lots of folks in the other two camps. I will say that from where I stand, ET looks like a Gospel of fear, and how is that "good news"?

Because being rescued from it is something to rejoice over, obviously. To think, instead, that Francis of Assisi and Josef Stalin are going to wind up in the same place or condition in the afterlife could be considered even less compatible with "good news."

 

[Lazarus Short]

Because that is the official or standard POV of historic Christianity. Of course, nothing is a heresy to the heretic; the word is applied by the body against dissenters.


Because being rescued from it is something to rejoice over, obviously. To think, instead, that Francis of Assisi and Josef Stalin are going to wind up in the same place or condition in the afterlife could be considered even less compatible with "good news."

"Applied by the body agains dissenters," and anyone else who has an original thought or chafes under the wrongs in the Church. Your thinking leads to ecclesiastical tyranny, and would steer your Anglican church back to the RCC.

I'm sure rescue would seem like good news to Josef Stalin and a lot of other folks, but of course, that does not answer the question. Consider if the Judgment consists only in the determination that the wicked simply need more correction and purification? The orthodox seem to be unwilling to answer my question about anyone being dead and/or in Hell after God has become All in all and Death has been destroyed - now that would answer the question, but I don't think the orthodox can ever face it squarely.

 

[Albion]

"Applied by the body agains dissenters," and anyone else who has an original thought or chafes under the wrongs in the Church. Your thinking leads to ecclesiastical tyranny, and would steer your Anglican church back to the RCC.

None of that makes sense to me. Sorry. All I was doing there was clarifying, for our friend, the meaning of heresy and how the word is applied. There's no need to get hysterical over that.

Consider if the Judgment consists only in the determination that the wicked simply need more correction and purification? The orthodox seem to be unwilling to answer my question about anyone being dead and/or in Hell after God has become All in all and Death has been destroyed - now that would answer the question, but I don't think the orthodox can ever face it squarely.

I'd say that they've faced it many times. In the clutch, however, it's Scripture that determines the answer, not our own wishes and speculation--and Scripture is rather strongly on the side of ET, even if we admit that there are verses that seem to hint at some other answer.

 

[jerry kelso]

I just read your first sentence. I don't like plethoras of plenitude and don't know why you carry on so.

Why is hell mentioned? To put the Fear of God into you? I think so. What do you think?

nothead,

1. I take it you don't like anything complete.

2. Hell is mentioned because it is real and it is for the wicked who do not serve their purpose and destiny for God.

3. Hell is not the gospel such as the death, burial, and resurrection of being saved. However, there are hard core sinners who are strongly out to kill the message of Christ and the messengers of Christ that need to know what they really are as sinners and why they are that way and what they need to know and do and believe in order to change their course.

4. The bible says the goodness of God leads to repentance but at the same time some people will not get the message of God's goodness and even pain; which is relative to all of us and the hard core will run away from and instead be angry towards God and look into other things to fulfill their life and those other things will be the lusts of the flesh in some manner.

5. Fundamentalists that teach the does and don'ts to the point of legalistic head banging do much damage preaching fire and brimstone of hell to browbeat by fear so people will go to heaven. This is probably the number 1 problem with those that grow up in the church and not are discipled properly. They are taught to do instead of being who they are in Christ. It is supposed to be who you are in Christ is why you do and they have it backwards.

6. Their is a proper time and context concerning hell that is right and needful.
Case in point, was back in the 1960's Brother Hubert Lindsey started preaching at the campuses and universities, specifically University of California Berkeley. People from the Black Panthers, Weather Underground, Manson family and all kinds of religious cults etc. Those people thought he was crazy and some would beat him up for preaching the Gospel and telling they were dirty rotten sinners in need of God's love etc. He would literally have to go to the hospital and get patched up and even lost his sight twice where the first time God healed him and the second time he did not.
Those people who were beating him up thought he was crazy but after a period of time of him continually coming back everyday and because of the anointing of the Holy Spirit on him they eventually started to get saved. After 3 years, Governor Reagan said the campus was cleared up mostly because of Holy Hubert's ministry. He was just like the apostle Paul.

7. Now I am not saying everyone has to be like the apostle Paul or Holy Hubert's ministry even though we do have to stand up for God and be willing to die for the cause of Christ but that is a time that being strong about hell and the condition of their heart because of their filthy living was appropriate.
He was a holiness preacher and they are strong and many did preach about hell but they had many souls for their labor.

8. People in church need to be discipled in God and his salvation and his goodness.

9. The point is to be led by God and to be wise as serpents of how to talk to people and when etc. and the anointing breaks the yoke, not persuasive oratory skills or brow beating in doing when it is not yet about being in Christ.

10. Also, the example has and can be used that if as a parent and you see your child fixing to go off the cliff would you not try to save him or would you let him walk off that cliff?

11. There are cases that the message of hell was a turning point of a person getting saved because they knew they were headed that way. As a christian if one is backsliding and not listening to God they need the fear of God in them. It seems ironic to me that people will secure themselves with fire insurance for their house and floods and many other things including health and life while on this earth but they will not plan for eternal because they want to be the children of their own lusts and sin and the big I in charge and not God. The servant is not greater than the master who happens to be God.

12. Everyone needs reconciliation but God is not going to make anyone do what they don't want to do and he demand obedience to him and he is love but judgement is part of that love so there won't be any rebels among them. The forever is because God said so and said even if one comes back from the dead no one would believe them.

13. God said in 2 Thessalonians 2:11 God will send a strong delusion and a person with a reprobate mind are not going to change it no matter how long the punishment.
The fact is that the bible does not teach UR or purgatory or a second chance after one physically dies. Jerry kelso