Universal reconciliation

[jerry kelso]

1. How do you connect what I say to humanism? Saying there is no scripture to back something up is almost patently false. I arrived at the conclusion that the fire of God (not Hell) is to purify simply because I kept bumping up against it. I did not begin with that idea.

2. I don't want to debate you. I broadcast my seeds and move on.

3. Well, you imply that I don't rightly divide the word. Hermeneutics? Brother, I read through the KJV, comparing text to text, using my common sense, Strong's/Young's, the Oxford English Dictionary, online interlinear Bibles, and a few other Bible translations. Too much scholarship is infected with the lie of Hell.

4. Yeah, well, I do admit in my manuscript when my case is weak or a text does not go my way. UR is not 100% but it is so much closer to the mark than the Hell Theory. Sadly, you keep implying that I am way off somewhere in error, but as I have said, I took up the KJV to see if Hell was so, like a good Berean.

lazarusshort,

1. The subject is about hell and about UR which deals with purgatory and the fire of God to purify. You seem to believe in UR and that the fire of God only has one definition and that is to purify. Fire can destroy or purify. God sent a flood the first time and promised he would not send a flood again for the next time would be fire and there is no scripture to prove purification by fire in the scripture after one is in hell. Many quote 1 Corinthians 3 in the believers works being judged by fire which has nothing to do with those in hell.

2. It is fine if you don't want to debate because all you want is to give your opinion of what you think the scripture means and then leave. That is your choice.

3. It depends on what your definition of scholarship is. Everybody has hermeneutics whether they know it or not but it doesn't mean they rightly divide the word or are scholarly.

4. Well that is fine you admit where you understand and what you don't and that you are like berean to see about the truth and so do I. I agree that UR is not 100 % but I don't agree that it is closer than what hell really is and what the purpose for it is. I don't even disagree with it having a good motive because if you are concerned about one's soul and it's destination who wants them to suffer such torment? However, I don't see where the scripture shows it to be true for many reasons. If I just go by my logic or what I think is common sense and allow it to dictate the scripture then I would not be rightly dividing the word. This doesn't mean that we are not to use common sense when trying to rightly dividing the words in the usage of hermeneutics but it is not to dictate the scripture. The truth of the word is of utmost importance to search out and learn not what our common sense and feeling always tell us for they can be like our conscience and lead us astray.
The reason for debate is not merely arguing a point as it is in learning what belief is being said and if it agrees with the word and reasoning in the fact that iron sharpens iron when it comes to learn the biblical truth.
I can only respond to what you say a little at a time unless you say what your full position is and what your real motive to believe that position before I can really make a full assessment. Food for thought Jerry Kelso

 

[anonymouswho]

The way I interpret that is that those who blaspheme the Spirit in a particular age will remain in their sin for the entire age in which they committed the sin.

However, God will grant them repentance in a future age after they've suffered loss and have been refined by God? Is that how you understand it?

Yes, that is exactly how I understand it. I was under the impression that you thought this sin is impossible to be forgiven for. For those that do believe this, consider this...the very men that spoke blasphemy were the same that mocked Yeshua while He was hanging on the stick....

"Then said Jesus, Father, forgive them; for they know not what they do. And they parted his raiment, and cast lots." Luke 23:34

Yeshua said God always listens to him. If he told God to forgive them, then we can be assured that God forgave them.

Interesting. It's clear that only God is eternally alive, meaning only God has no beginning or end, it then follows that what God creates begins to experience life that is never ending with God who is eternally alive, never ending.

I'm not sure if God had a beginning or not. I believe He did have a beginning, because I have not found any verse that says God has no beginning or end. He is literally called "the beginning and the end", but that is not the same as "no beginning or end". He is also called the Ancient of Days, which would mean He is very, very old....but not without a beginning.

Psalm 90:2 says...

"Before the mountains were brought forth, or ever thou hadst formed the earth and the world, even from everlasting (olam) to everlasting (olam), thou art God."

Youngs literal translation says...

"Before mountains were brought forth, And Thou dost form the earth and the world, Even from age unto age Thou art God."

This is important, because Christians say that aionios is used to describe God; so if God is the "age-enduring God", or "God unto the ages", it could be reasoned that God is not eternal. They believe He must be eternal, or He is not God. Their definition comes from Aristotle, who taught that God is the "unmoving mover", which is obviously a contradiction. Christianity is not just muddled with paganism...there is a lot of Greek and Roman philosophy integrated as well.

God is considered to be outside of time, because they believe He created time. Augustine said...

"Thy years are but a day, and thy day is not recurrent, but always today. Thy "today" yields not to tomorrow and does not follow yesterday. Thy "today" is eternity."

I can't even begin to comprehend what this means. However, the Scriptures say...

"For a thousand years in thy sight are but as yesterday when it is past, and as a watch in the night." Psalm 90:4

This seems to confirm relatively, rather than indicate that God is "outside of time". It took me a long time to accept this, but either way, what does it matter. All I know is, His knowledge is far greater than my own, and by His wisdom and understanding He prepared the heavens and the earth. Anyways...sorry for rambling. Thank you my friend.

 

[Der Alte]

OK, but since you characterize my view as "imaginary," I'll assume your mind is made up, though it's obvious you haven't done your homework. First off, I don't give a lot of weight to what the Jews of Jesus' time thought about this or that, because they had a Spirit of Religion, just like a lot of folks today who (IMHO) make Hell into an idol. On to the mythology - the real gem I found was in the mythology of the pagan tribes of northern Europe, many of whom believed in a goddess/ogress by the name of Hel. Her realm was an underworld also known as "Hel" or "Helheim." So it falls out that "Hel" is pagan, but "Hell" is Christian. Really?

I'll address your last comment first. Please share with us the source of your "research" into the "mythology of the pagan tribes of northern Europe" and "a goddess/ogress by the name of Hel?" I would prefer credible, verifiable, historical evidence equivalent in reliability to the sources I quoted i.e. the Jewish Encyclopedia and the Talmud. I do not consider random blogs credible sources. And if you can provide a credible source can you also provide a historical connection between some pagan deity and any Christian belief?
.....As I said more than once before, Jesus and His disciples were Jews, virtually everyone that Jesus talked with and ministered to were Jews. Christianity originated in Judaism not northern Europe. Jesus corrected the Jewish leaders many times but He never corrected their belief in a place of eternal, unending fiery punishment which they called sheol and Ge Hinnom. When Jesus talked to Jews about Gehenna where the worm does not die and the fire is not quenched they understood Him to be talking about a place of eternal, unending fiery torment. See my evidence above from the Jewish Encyclopedia.
.....Since you insist that the concept of hell originated in paganism you have to PROVE that it did not originate in Judaism and you cannot do that. And that I believe is why you adamantly choose to ignore the Jewish history.

 

[Der Alte]

. . . Why do you desire so badly that God will torment billions of people forever and ever and ever and ever and ever and ever and.....?
Do you rejoice every time a nonbeliever dies, because you know that they are going to be tormented forever and God's justice and wrath will be satisfied? If not, why? . . .

Since you started out your response by insulting me, this will be my only reply to you. Any further posts by you will be ignored.

 

[anonymouswho]

Since you started out your response by insulting me, this will be my only reply to you. Any further posts by you will be ignored.

Hey Der Alter. I'm sorry if I insulted you. I reread my response, and I'm not sure which part you find insulting. I asked if you could read my post above, I stated that it is an undeniable fact (according to the concordances you provided) that aionios means age-long, I gave two different ways to interpret aionios and provided the consequences of each interpretation, and then I asked you these two questions.

If you could please show me where I insulted you, I would like to make this right. I never mean to insult or offend anyone. Thank you.

 

[Chriliman]

Yes, that is exactly how I understand it. I was under the impression that you thought this sin is impossible to be forgiven for. For those that do believe this, consider this...the very men that spoke blasphemy were the same that mocked Yeshua while He was hanging on the stick....

"Then said Jesus, Father, forgive them; for they know not what they do. And they parted his raiment, and cast lots." Luke 23:34

Yeshua said God always listens to him. If he told God to forgive them, then we can be assured that God forgave them.



I'm not sure if God had a beginning or not. I believe He did have a beginning, because I have not found any verse that says God has no beginning or end. He is literally called "the beginning and the end", but that is not the same as "no beginning or end". He is also called the Ancient of Days, which would mean He is very, very old....but not without a beginning.

Psalm 90:2 says...

"Before the mountains were brought forth, or ever thou hadst formed the earth and the world, even from everlasting (olam) to everlasting (olam), thou art God."

Youngs literal translation says...

"Before mountains were brought forth, And Thou dost form the earth and the world, Even from age unto age Thou art God."

This is important, because Christians say that aionios is used to describe God; so if God is the "age-enduring God", or "God unto the ages", it could be reasoned that God is not eternal. They believe He must be eternal, or He is not God. Their definition comes from Aristotle, who taught that God is the "unmoving mover", which is obviously a contradiction. Christianity is not just muddled with paganism...there is a lot of Greek and Roman philosophy integrated as well.

God is considered to be outside of time, because they believe He created time. Augustine said...

"Thy years are but a day, and thy day is not recurrent, but always today. Thy "today" yields not to tomorrow and does not follow yesterday. Thy "today" is eternity."

I can't even begin to comprehend what this means. However, the Scriptures say...

"For a thousand years in thy sight are but as yesterday when it is past, and as a watch in the night." Psalm 90:4

This seems to confirm relatively, rather than indicate that God is "outside of time". It took me a long time to accept this, but either way, what does it matter. All I know is, His knowledge is far greater than my own, and by His wisdom and understanding He prepared the heavens and the earth. Anyways...sorry for rambling. Thank you my friend.

To me, the concept of God being eternal means that He did not bring Himself into existence, but rather He has always existed and will forever exist. If we say that God began to exist, then we must consider what caused Him to begin to exist.

However, if we say the Spirit of God has always existed and then God spoke and we have creation from His word, then this is not a contradiction and it is in line with Scripture. However, we have to consider whether God exists in an eternal state where He has time to speak and or do things or if He exists in an eternal state where there is no space or time to speak or do things(outside space/time). IWO, is space/time a part of God's eternal being or did He create space/time. If He created space/time, how did He have time to do so, before time existed?

Personally, I see no conflict within Scripture in understanding that God eternally exists in a state where there is time and space to speak and do things.

Thanks for your thoughts and input

 

[Der Alte]

I have read quite a bit of what the Jews recorded before and after Jesus. What I have learned is that when someone quotes these and leaves the impression that the Jews were monolith in their views are very wrong as there were often several different views the Jews held that they loved to debate and discuss. So most views today can quote Jewish sources and say the Jews of Jesus' time supported their view.

I did not say that the Jewish belief in a place of eternal, unending place of fiery punishment, which they called sheol and Ge Hinnom, was held by all Jews but the belief was significant enough that it was mentioned in both the Jewish Encyclopedia and the Talmud which I quoted. For convenience I will refer to that place as hell. When Jesus taught Jews about Gehenna where the worm does not die and the fire is not quenched, many Jews believed that He was talking about hell. Jesus also taught more than once about a fate worse than death. Although Jesus corrected the Jews many times He never corrected their belief in hell. The Sadducees did not believe in the resurrection and they knew that everybody dies good, bad, old, young, etc and it had nothing to do with punishment. So when Jesus said "eternal punishment" the Sadducees would have understood it as something more than death, i.e. never ending punishment.

My view is that people who haven't repented will go to hell till they repent and just as in Jesus' day and today God loves them and will forgive anyone who repents when ever they repent.

Unfortunately this is wishful thinking with no scriptural support.

Matthew 7:22-23
(22) Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
(23) And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.​

10,000 times 10,000 years from now God's unchanging word will still say "I never knew you."

 

[anonymouswho]

Since you started out your response by insulting me, this will be my only reply to you. Any further posts by you will be ignored.

Perhaps it was the way I worded my questions. I can see how this might offend you, but I dont think I insulted you. Different people get offended by different things, and it's impossible for me know what will offend every person. If I offended you, it was a mistake and I apologize. Please let me explain why I asked these questions.

You know as an undeniable fact that aionios "can" mean age-enduring. As the reader, you have a choice of whether you believe eternal is more appropriate, or age-enduring. Therefore, I have reasoned that it is more desirable for you to translate aionios as eternal. Since this is more desirable to you, then the idea of billions of people burning forever must likewise be more desirable than the idea that they will eventually be freed. This is the only logical conclusion I could make. If I'm missing something, please explain so I can understand. I'm just wondering why eternal punishment is more desirable to you. Is it because this might mean you won't get eternal life?

The reasoning behind my second question is that you should rejoice every time an unbeliever is sent to hell. God's judgement is just and righteous, and Isaiah couldn't wait for the judgement of God to manifest...

"With my soul have I desired thee in the night; yea, with my spirit within me will I seek thee early: for when thy judgments are in the earth, the inhabitants of the world will learn righteousness."

Therefore, you must be overwhelmed with joy when an unbelieving sinner is cast into the eternal Lake of Fire. If you're not overwhelmed with joy, I was simply wondering why.

I hope we can move past your anger towards me....

"Reprove not a scorner, lest he hate thee: rebuke a wise man, and he will love thee." Proverbs 9:8

Thank you and God bless.

 

[anonymouswho]

The truth should always be welcome.


'Crafty' indeed. You could have proven a bit more of their 'craftiness' if you'd showed the other aionios in Titus though.

Titus 1:2 In hope of eternal/aionios life, which God, that cannot lie, promised before the world/aionios began;

As you can see it would have been stupid to translate 'both' words aionios as eternal. But since theologians have to protect 'doctrine' the sleight of hand appears. It wouldn't have made any sense that 'eternity' had a beginning, so the KJV inserts "world"?

But YLT remains true to the truth IMO.

Titus 1:2 upon hope of life age-during/aionios, which God, who doth not lie, did promise before times of ages/aionios,

Hey thanks for posting this. I knew there was another verse, but I was very tired. This proves without any doubt that there is at least a 1% chance that God is not going to torture mankind forever and ever. And we haven't even shown every verse with aion yet! I think it is unreasonable that aion should mean age in one verse, world in another, and forever in others. If we could just pick and choose when we wanted aion to mean forever, we could says...

"In whom the god of forever (aion) hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them." 2 Corinthians 4:4

Christians believe this verse is about Lucifer, that all-powerful deity that constantly thwarts the will of our Father. I think Paul was pretty clear in his belief that God is the one that blinds...but I'm just saying....

Thanks again Hillsage, it's good to talk to you again my friend. God bless.

 

[anonymouswho]

To me, the concept of God being eternal means that He did not bring Himself into existence, but rather He has always existed and will forever exist. If we say that God began to exist, then we must consider what caused Him to begin to exist.

However, if we say the Spirit of God has always existed and then God spoke and we have creation from His word, then this is not a contradiction and it is in line with Scripture. However, we have to consider whether God exists in an eternal state where He has time to speak and or do things or if He exists in an eternal state where there is no space or time to speak or do things(outside space/time). IWO, is space/time a part of God's eternal being or did He create space/time. If He created space/time, how did He have time to do so, before time existed?

Personally, I see no conflict within Scripture in understanding that God eternally exists in a state where there is time and space to speak and do things.

Thanks for your thoughts and input

Thanks for replying! I hope you don't think I'm trying to debate or argue with you. I'm excited that you've continued to talk to me about this, and it seems like something you've seriously considered before.

My problem is the lack of Scriptural references that say God had no beginning. When I read that He is "the beginning and the end", I can't help but wonder why the author chose not to say "no beginning and no end". A lack of Scriptural support is important to me. To say that God could be eternal because the Scriptures don't explicitly say otherwise is like saying God is His own Father and also His own son- just because there are a few verses that seem to imply something; despite the lack of logic or explicit Scriptural proof.

My other concern is, if God had no beginning, and time is part of His eternal being, at what point did He begin to move forward? How long did He exist before He decided it was time to prepare the Universe? It seems (unless I don't understand something) that if He lived infinitely in the past, He couldn't have moved forward to a future moment to "finally" decided to create?

I do not believe that God can go to the past or transport to the future (outside of time). I think you agree. I believe He knows with 100% certainty every past event, and because He knows the Cause of all things, He knows with 100% certainty what will happen in the future. But I don't believe He can jump through time or exist in the past, present, and future in a single moment. I don't see any Scripture that would even imply such a thing. If this is the definition of eternal, and the flesh of the wicked will burn for eternity, then their flesh has been burning infinitely in the past, burns in the present, and will continue to burn forever. That doesn't make sense.

When God says "Let there be light"...it seems reasonable to interpret this so that light was already in existence. Which means it's not that God "created" light, but He told light where it needed to be and what it needed to do. Based on my studies of the Hebrew "bara", I do not believe this word means "created"- as in creation out of nothing; ex nihilo. I believe "prepared" is a more appropriate translation. I've replaced every instance of bara with prepared, and it makes sense every time (ex. Joshua 17:15, Ezekiel 21:24; 23:47, 1 Samuel 2:29).

However, I do see the problems with my own ideas. If God had a beginning, what caused Him to come into existence? I've considered that all that existed was matter, space, and time...but it was chaotic. A conscious being somehow came into existence through this chaos, and He began to learn absolutly everything...through much long-suffering. Once He learned absolutely everything that could ever be learned, He began to bring order to this chaos.

"And the earth (land...matter?) was without form (תֹ֙הוּ֙ chaos, confusion), and void (empty); and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters."

Once He said "Let there be light", He started the chain reaction of Cause and Effect that would eventually lead to all of His good purpose. This has to do with Causality and the past light cone- that nothing can travel faster than the speed of light, so a Cause must always precede an effect.

I don't like to quote this often because it can be used as an excuse for why our theological positions could be true, despite the lack of reason or logic. All I caneed know for sure is...

"For there is not a word in my tongue, but, lo, O LORD, thou knowest it altogether.
Thou hast beset me behind and before, and laid thine hand upon me.
Such knowledge is too wonderful for me; it is high, I cannot attain unto it." Psalm 139:4

Thank you.

 

[Lazarus Short]

I'll address your last comment first. Please share with us the source of your "research" into the "mythology of the pagan tribes of northern Europe" and "a goddess/ogress by the name of Hel?" I would prefer credible, verifiable, historical evidence equivalent in reliability to the sources I quoted i.e. the Jewish Encyclopedia and the Talmud. I do not consider random blogs credible sources. And if you can provide a credible source can you also provide a historical connection between some pagan deity and any Christian belief?
.....As I said more than once before, Jesus and His disciples were Jews, virtually everyone that Jesus talked with and ministered to were Jews. Christianity originated in Judaism not northern Europe. Jesus corrected the Jewish leaders many times but He never corrected their belief in a place of eternal, unending fiery punishment which they called sheol and Ge Hinnom. When Jesus talked to Jews about Gehenna where the worm does not die and the fire is not quenched they understood Him to be talking about a place of eternal, unending fiery torment. See my evidence above from the Jewish Encyclopedia.
.....Since you insist that the concept of hell originated in paganism you have to PROVE that it did not originate in Judaism and you cannot do that. And that I believe is why you adamantly choose to ignore the Jewish history.

Well, since you put my word "research" in quotes, I can just feel the disdain you have for my position. Further, if you consider sources such as the Jewish Encyclopedia and the Talmud (Jerusalem or Babylonian?) to be credible, verifiable and reliable, I see that you have fallen for the trap of scholarship. It is a trap in that some sources look authoritative, but are steeped in error handed down from hoary antiquity, just as young preachers preach Hell because they were taught it in seminary, because their professors were taught it, and so on and so on. We will probably never be on the same page in this life. We live in an information age, and what I have brought before you can be verified in a very short time, so I don't feel a need to prove anything to you or to debate you. You are correct that Christianity originated in Judaism, but I'm just saying that when large numbers of Greeks, and Romans and sundry pagan tribes came into the fold, they brought some religious baggage with them. It is not difficult to understand, and as I said in my book, a funny thing happened on the way to the Septuagint. Even in the time of Jesus, the religious concepts of His people had already been contaminated by the religion of Babylon and the Greeks. Now you know why I have little use for Jewish sources, for that well is poisoned.

 

[Chriliman]

Thanks for replying! I hope you don't think I'm trying to debate or argue with you. I'm excited that you've continued to talk to me about this, and it seems like something you've seriously considered before.

My problem is the lack of Scriptural references that say God had no beginning. When I read that He is "the beginning and the end", I can't help but wonder why the author chose not to say "no beginning and no end". A lack of Scriptural support is important to me. To say that God could be eternal because the Scriptures don't explicitly say otherwise is like saying God is His own Father and also His own son- just because there are a few verses that seem to imply something; despite the lack of logic or explicit Scriptural proof.

I understand. However, I find the implications of saying "God began to exist" to be illogical because this implies nothing existed before God began to exist, which then means it was nothing that caused God to exist, which is illogical. This is why I conclude that He must be eternal(having no beginning or end). I think it's our understanding of His truth that begins and comes to completion at some future time. I believe it pleases God when we think logically. Reason and logic are tools given to us by God to help us understand His truth, which is logical because it does not contradict itself.

My other concern is, if God had no beginning, and time is part of His eternal being, at what point did He begin to move forward? How long did He exist before He decided it was time to prepare the Universe? It seems (unless I don't understand something) that if He lived infinitely in the past, He couldn't have moved forward to a future moment to "finally" decided to create?

The point is that if God exists in a state where there is no time at all, then He can't do anything.

Our limits of understanding in our current fleshy bodies, prevent us from fully knowing what it's like to exist eternally and be able to do all things that are possible, but this is the reality of God's perspective and He is making us to be like Himself through Jesus Christ.

I do not believe that God can go to the past or transport to the future (outside of time). I think you agree. I believe He knows with 100% certainty every past event, and because He knows the Cause of all things, He knows with 100% certainty what will happen in the future. But I don't believe He can jump through time or exist in the past, present, and future in a single moment. I don't see any Scripture that would even imply such a thing. If this is the definition of eternal, and the flesh of the wicked will burn for eternity, then their flesh has been burning infinitely in the past, burns in the present, and will continue to burn forever. That doesn't make sense.

Revelation 1:8
"I am the Alpha and the Omega," says the Lord God, "who is, and who was, and who is to come, the Almighty."

This verse implies that no matter what point in time a created being finds themselves, God is God.

When God says "Let there be light"...it seems reasonable to interpret this so that light was already in existence. Which means it's not that God "created" light, but He told light where it needed to be and what it needed to do. Based on my studies of the Hebrew "bara", I do not believe this word means "created"- as in creation out of nothing; ex nihilo. I believe "prepared" is a more appropriate translation. I've replaced every instance of bara with prepared, and it makes sense every time (ex. Joshua 17:15, Ezekiel 21:24; 23:47, 1 Samuel 2:29).

This could be understood that all of creation existed in the mind of God before He spoke and made it a reality for us to actually experience.

I also don't believe God brought anything into existence out of nothing, but rather He brought forth everything from His own word, which is fully understood through Jesus Christ.

However, I do see the problems with my own ideas. If God had a beginning, what caused Him to come into existence? I've considered that all that existed was matter, space, and time...but it was chaotic. A conscious being somehow came into existence through this chaos, and He began to learn absolutly everything...through much long-suffering. Once He learned absolutely everything that could ever be learned, He began to bring order to this chaos.

My understanding is that only free willed created beings can cause chaos and confusion.

Before God brought anything into existence there was only God, who is perfection.

"And the earth (land...matter?) was without form (תֹ֙הוּ֙ chaos, confusion), and void (empty); and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters."

Once He said "Let there be light", He started the chain reaction of Cause and Effect that would eventually lead to all of His good purpose. This has to do with Causality and the past light cone- that nothing can travel faster than the speed of light, so a Cause must always precede an effect.

Agreed and if God is the first causer, then God wasn't caused by anything, which means He has always existed in a state where He can cause things to happen if He wants to.

I don't like to quote this often because it can be used as an excuse for why our theological positions could be true, despite the lack of reason or logic. All I caneed know for sure is...

"For there is not a word in my tongue, but, lo, O LORD, thou knowest it altogether.
Thou hast beset me behind and before, and laid thine hand upon me.
Such knowledge is too wonderful for me; it is high, I cannot attain unto it." Psalm 139:4

Thank you.

Agreed, God will always have more knowledge than anything or anyone that He brings into existence.

Thanks for the interesting discussion.

 

[Der Alte]

Well, since you put my word "research" in quotes, I can just feel the disdain you have for my position. Further, if you consider sources such as the Jewish Encyclopedia and the Talmud (Jerusalem or Babylonian?) to be credible, verifiable and reliable, I see that you have fallen for the trap of scholarship. It is a trap in that some sources look authoritative, but are steeped in error handed down from hoary antiquity, just as young preachers preach Hell because they were taught it in seminary, because their professors were taught it, and so on and so on.

For an accurate account of Jewish history, faith and practice which source(s) do you recommend and how do you know they accurate and NOT "steeped in error handed down from hoary antiquity?" What evidence can you provide which proves that anything I posted is not correct? Your wild speculation about "young preachers" is totally false with no basis in reality.

We will probably never be on the same page in this life. We live in an information age, and what I have brought before you can be verified in a very short time, so I don't feel a need to prove anything to you or to debate you.

If you do not provide credible, verifiable, historical evidence for your claims we will certainly never be on the same page. Saying something can be verified in a very short time is meaningless.

You are correct that Christianity originated in Judaism, but I'm just saying that when large numbers of Greeks, and Romans and sundry pagan tribes came into the fold, they brought some religious baggage with them. It is not difficult to understand, and as I said in my book, a funny thing happened on the way to the Septuagint. Even in the time of Jesus, the religious concepts of His people had already been contaminated by the religion of Babylon and the Greeks. Now you know why I have little use for Jewish sources, for that well is poisoned.

Do you know what the word "discussion" means? This is a discussion forum where each side presents their views and others respond. If they disagree with something then they need to provide evidence why they believe the other's view is incorrect. If one person tells another person what they posted "can be verified in a very short time" that is NOT discussion. You have made several claims in this post and have not provided any kind of evidence to support them. What is presented here is nothing more than "I'm right and you're wrong! Am too! Nuh Huh!"

 

[anonymouswho]

I understand. However, I find the implications of saying "God began to exist" to be illogical because this implies nothing existed before God began to exist, which then means it was nothing that caused God to exist, which is illogical. This is why I conclude that He must be eternal(having no beginning or end). I think it's our understanding of His truth that begins and comes to completion at some future time. I believe it pleases God when we think logically. Reason and logic are tools given to us by God to help us understand His truth, which is logical because it does not contradict itself.

I understand completely, and I agree that Reason and Logic are tools given to us by God. I've actually never discussed this with anyone that would talk to me long enough to work it out. The last time I had a deep conversation about eternity, I was arguing from your point of veiw. I hope you don't mind labels (I've come to accept that if it's ever been thought of, there's a label for it), but you seem to believe in Panentheism (All-in-God). I used to believe this too. My strongest verse was...

"For in him we live, and move, and have our being; as certain also of your own poets have said, For we are also his offspring." Acts 17:28

What I didn't consider was that the "poets" Paul is speaking of were Greek philosophers. This particular quote is from Epimenides of Knossos. Paul quotes several Greek philosophers, but I've already mentioned some of my concerns with Paul. I do not believe the philosophy of pagan Greeks is appropriate to argue the existence of God, but that does not negate it as a fact if the Scriptures agree.

The point is that if God exists in a state where there is no time at all, then He can't do anything.

Our limits of understanding in our current fleshy bodies, prevent us from fully knowing what it's like to exist eternally and be able to do all things that are possible, but this is the reality of God's perspective and He is making us to be like Himself through Jesus Christ.

I don't mean to be so blunt, but when I hear this argument, I am very suspicious of it. It is the same argument given for why God is triune. We ask "How does this make sense?" or "Where do the Scriptures say this?" and the answer I hear is "Our limited understanding of this unscriptural term is the reason we cannot comprehend it. God can do anything, so therefore no amount of reason needs to be given". I'm not trying to make fun of you, I'm just letting you know what I hear, because I hear this about everything. That is why I'm excited about this conversation. If I have to resort to this statement in order to defend my position, then I either need to think about it longer or I need to throw the whole thing out and start over. I'm okay with that, I've had to do it for many things.

When I quoted Psalm 139, I didn't do it with this idea in mind. So far, I have stated my ignorance concerning the process by which God came into existence, and I am hoping I can either work out the details from our discussion, or I might just accept your argument as the most logical position and go on with my life.

Revelation 1:8
"I am the Alpha and the Omega," says the Lord God, "who is, and who was, and who is to come, the Almighty."

This verse implies that no matter what point in time a created being finds themselves, God is God.

The verse may imply that, but I do not believe my position contradicts this. I believe He was, He is, and He will be because I believe He existed in the past, He exists now, and He will exist in the future.

It also says He is the Alpha and the Omega, or the first and last letter of the Greek alphabet. However, God never says what He is the first of. Is He the first existence, or is He the first rational entity? Is He the first cause of reality, or did He use reality to be the first cause of the order?

This could be understood that all of creation existed in the mind of God before He spoke and made it a reality for us to actually experience.

I also don't believe God brought anything into existence out of nothing, but rather He brought forth everything from His own word, which is fully understood through Jesus Christ.

I like the way you worded this. This part is going to be long, but I'm arguing a position that hasn't had thousands of years of thought, so I need to show why I believe this. Also, if you see a blue word, that means I linked the word to a concordance so you can quickly look it up for yourself.

What I have trouble understanding is, when we say He brought forth everything from His "word", what does that mean? Does it mean He spoke, and His words materialized into formable matter; or does it mean He spoke, and the already existing matter did what He said?

This is what I believe John says in his first chapter.

Ἐν(in) ἀρχῇ (beginning) [no definite article just like b'reshit in Genesis 1:1] ἦν (was) ὁ (the) λόγος (reason), καὶ (and) ὁ (the) λόγος (reason) ἦν (was) πρὸς (moving towards) τὸ (the) θεόν (God), καὶ (and) θεὸς (divine) ἦν (was) ὁ (the) λόγος (reason)

οὗτος (it) ἦν (was) ἐν (in) ἀρχῇ (beginning) πρὸς (moving towards) τὸν (the) θεόν (God)

πάντα (all) δι' (because of) αὐτοῦ (it) ἐγένετο (emerges) καὶ (and) χωρὶς (without) αὐτοῦ (it) ἐγένετο (emerges) οὐδὲ (not) ἕν (one) ὃ (that) γέγονεν (has emerged)

So, if I say YHVH is the beginning (arche in Greek means beginning/first/principle thing), this would mean all things came in existence within Him....Panentheism. But then we have "the reason moving towards the God", who is YHVH. So how can the reason be both within God, and moving towards Him?

But if we say "In the first was the reason, and the reason was moving toward the God", we have something else that existed alongside of God. This is not to say "the first" is a rational being (a god). It is simply everything that existed, because it is necessary that these things existed. So rather than understanding God as a necessary being, existence is necessary for God. Once God was prepared (more on this in a bit), He had to learn wisdom.

"The LORD possessed (קָנָה to get, aquired) me in the beginning of his way, before his works of old.
I was set up from everlasting (olam: YLT says 'from the age I was anointed), from the beginning, or ever the earth was.
When there were no depths, I was brought forth (חוּל twist, writhe in pain- as in childbearing); when there were no fountains abounding with water.
Before the mountains were settled, before the hills was I brought forth (חוּל)" Proverbs 8:22

This passage says that wisdom was "aquired" by God through writhing pain. This would mean God has not always had wisdom- He had to learn it.

So I guess what I'm saying is...before God, there existed energy/matter and space. These were chaotic and random, forming and unforming unimaginable things continously (in layman's terms). At some point, they merged together to prepare a rational being- God.

In beginning (b'reshit) prepares (bara) the gods (elohim) [YHVH], the heavens (shamayim) [space], and the land (erets) [matter]

Once God was prepared, He learned wisdom by His experiences. After He obtained all knowledge, wisdom, and understanding, He said..

"Let there be light"

Thus setting forth the ages and the constant order of Cause and effect. So God is not necessary for reality to exist, but He is necessary for the order to exist.

Asking me how He did this would be like asking how He formed man from dirt. I don't know, but the Scriptures say He did, and our bodies are made of minerals such as iron and magnesium, which proves we came from the dirt. So although I cannot describe the process, I'm trying to see if there are any illogical implications to this.

Okay I think I've said enough for now. I don't think I'll need to write another post this long. Thank you for continuing to discuss this with me.

 

[Chriliman]

I understand completely, and I agree that Reason and Logic are tools given to us by God. I've actually never discussed this with anyone that would talk to me long enough to work it out. The last time I had a deep conversation about eternity, I was arguing from your point of veiw. I hope you don't mind labels (I've come to accept that if it's ever been thought of, there's a label for it), but you seem to believe in Panentheism (All-in-God). I used to believe this too. My strongest verse was...

"For in him we live, and move, and have our being; as certain also of your own poets have said, For we are also his offspring." Acts 17:28

What I didn't consider was that the "poets" Paul is speaking of were Greek philosophers. This particular quote is from Epimenides of Knossos. Paul quotes several Greek philosophers, but I've already mentioned some of my concerns with Paul. I do not believe the philosophy of pagan Greeks is appropriate to argue the existence of God, but that does not negate it as a fact if the Scriptures agree.

I don't believe all is in God quite yet, but God is working towards that goal.

1 Corinthians 15:28
"When he has done this, then the Son himself will be made subject to him who put everything under him, so that God may be all in all."

God will be all in all at some future time, at least from our current perspective.

I don't mean to be so blunt, but when I hear this argument, I am very suspicious of it. It is the same argument given for why God is triune. We ask "How does this make sense?" or "Where do the Scriptures say this?" and the answer I hear is "Our limited understanding of this unscriptural term is the reason we cannot comprehend it. God can do anything, so therefore no amount of reason needs to be given". I'm not trying to make fun of you, I'm just letting you know what I hear, because I hear this about everything. That is why I'm excited about this conversation. If I have to resort to this statement in order to defend my position, then I either need to think about it longer or I need to throw the whole thing out and start over. I'm okay with that, I've had to do it for many things.

I'm saying that with God all things are possible, not that with God anything is possible.

Matthew 19:26
"Jesus looked at them and said, "With man this is impossible, but with God all things are possible."

For example: It's possible that God could contradict Himself, if He wanted to, but this isn't something that God would do, so it's not a part of the "all things possible" for Him to do.

Does that make sense?

The verse may imply that, but I do not believe my position contradicts this. I believe He was, He is, and He will be because I believe He existed in the past, He exists now, and He will exist in the future.

When you say "He existed in the past", does this include the time before He came into being? Or do you believe there was a time when God did not exist yet?

It also says He is the Alpha and the Omega, or the first and last letter of the Greek alphabet. However, God never says what He is the first of. Is He the first existence, or is He the first rational entity? Is He the first cause of reality, or did He use reality to be the first cause of the order?

We know for sure that Christ is the first fruits of all creation.

John 1:3
"Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made."

Colossians 1:16
"For in him all things were created: things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or powers or rulers or authorities; all things have been created through him and for him."

So even before all things were made, we have God the Father making all things through Christ and for Christ.

What I have trouble understanding is, when we say He brought forth everything from His "word", what does that mean? Does it mean He spoke, and His words materialized into formable matter;

Yes, that's exactly what it means:

John 1:14
"The Word became flesh and made his dwelling among us. We have seen his glory, the glory of the one and only Son, who came from the Father, full of grace and truth."

or does it mean He spoke, and the already existing matter did what He said?

I'm not sure it's accurate to say matter was already existing. If it was then we have to ask: Did God create matter or did both God and matter come into being together, if so how? Was this a random event formed out of chaos? How does random chaos preexist a perfectly rational God?

This is what I believe John says in his first chapter.

Ἐν(in) ἀρχῇ (beginning) [no definite article just like b'reshit in Genesis 1:1] ἦν (was) ὁ (the) λόγος (reason), καὶ (and) ὁ (the) λόγος (reason) ἦν (was) πρὸς (moving towards) τὸ (the) θεόν (God), καὶ (and) θεὸς (divine) ἦν (was) ὁ (the) λόγος (reason)

οὗτος (it) ἦν (was) ἐν (in) ἀρχῇ (beginning) πρὸς (moving towards) τὸν (the) θεόν (God)

πάντα (all) δι' (because of) αὐτοῦ (it) ἐγένετο (emerges) καὶ (and) χωρὶς (without) αὐτοῦ (it) ἐγένετο (emerges) οὐδὲ (not) ἕν (one) ὃ (that) γέγονεν (has emerged)

So, if I say YHVH is the beginning (arche in Greek means beginning/first/principle thing), this would mean all things came in existence within Him....Panentheism. But then we have "the reason moving towards the God", who is YHVH. So how can the reason be both within God, and moving towards Him?

But if we say "In the first was the reason, and the reason was moving toward the God", we have something else that existed alongside of God. This is not to say "the first" is a rational being (a god). It is simply everything that existed, because it is necessary that these things existed. So rather than understanding God as a necessary being, existence is necessary for God. Once God was prepared (more on this in a bit), He had to learn wisdom.

"The LORD possessed (קָנָה to get, aquired) me in the beginning of his way, before his works of old.
I was set up from everlasting (olam: YLT says 'from the age I was anointed), from the beginning, or ever the earth was.
When there were no depths, I was brought forth (חוּל twist, writhe in pain- as in childbearing); when there were no fountains abounding with water.
Before the mountains were settled, before the hills was I brought forth (חוּל)" Proverbs 8:22

This passage says that wisdom was "aquired" by God through writhing pain. This would mean God has not always had wisdom- He had to learn it.

I think it's true that Jesus, being in the flesh(matter), did learn wisdom from God the Father(Spirit), but I'm very suspicious of the thought that God the Father had to learn wisdom, rather than wisdom coming from Himself and given to His creation.

So I guess what I'm saying is...before God, there existed energy/matter and space. These were chaotic and random, forming and unforming unimaginable things continously (in layman's terms). At some point, they merged together to prepare a rational being- God.

Hope you don't mind if I reword this to help you understand what I belive is true:

"So I guess what I'm saying is...before God(Jesus in the flesh), there existed energy, space and time(Spirit of God the Father)."

"These were chaotic and random, forming and unforming unimaginable things continously (in layman's terms). At some point, they merged together to prepare a rational being- God."

So chaos and randomness is eternal, having no beginning, but it somehow caused an all powerful God who created us? So we should be thanking chaos and randomness for causing God to exist and even God Himself should give credit to this chaos and randomness that brought Him into being? Where's the scripture that supports this notion?

To me it seems far more likely to say that the Spirit of God the Father is eternal and He spoke creation into existence for a specific reason, that reason being Jesus Christ, His Son.

In beginning (b'reshit) prepares (bara) the gods (elohim) [YHVH], the heavens (shamayim) [space], and the land (erets) [matter]

Once God was prepared, He learned wisdom by His experiences. After He obtained all knowledge, wisdom, and understanding, He said..

"Let there be light"

Thus setting forth the ages and the constant order of Cause and effect. So God is not necessary for reality to exist, but He is necessary for the order to exist.

But what you're saying is that God is not the first causer because chaos and randomness caused Him first.

Asking me how He did this would be like asking how He formed man from dirt.

If chaos and randomness caused God, then God was not the first causer of everything that is.

Again, I think it's more logical to say God is eternal order and reason and that He caused/created everything that is. The notions of chaos and randomness are human constructs that we use to explain the unexplainable, but God is explainable because He can explain Himself and ultimately it is Him and His word that we should rely on. I know you know this

I don't know, but the Scriptures say He did, and our bodies are made of minerals such as iron and magnesium, which proves we came from the dirt. So although I cannot describe the process, I'm trying to see if there are any illogical implications to this.

I think there are illogical implications, namely the fact that if what you're saying is true then God is not the first causer of everything that exists. Rather, chaos and randomness would be the first causer of God who then created everything that is not chaotic or random. This means chaos and randomness is eternal, having no beginning, no cause, and God Himself would have to acknowledge that He came from chaos and randomness, which is not scriptural at all. While I do think that what you're saying is possible and I understand why you believe it, I just don't see how scripture supports what you're claiming.

Okay I think I've said enough for now. I don't think I'll need to write another post this long. Thank you for continuing to discuss this with me.

No problem, I enjoy thinking through these things with an open heart to what God wants us to understand about Himself. It's easy to rely on our own understanding without realizing it, but that can lead to confusion, I always try to remember to reset and just ask God to help me understand. Thanks again

 

[anonymouswho]

I don't believe all is in God quite yet, but God is working towards that goal.

1 Corinthians 15:28
"When he has done this, then the Son himself will be made subject to him who put everything under him, so that God may be all in all."

God will be all in all at some future time, at least from our current perspective.




I'm saying that with God all things are possible, not that with God anything is possible.

Matthew 19:26
"Jesus looked at them and said, "With man this is impossible, but with God all things are possible."

For example: It's possible that God could contradict Himself, if He wanted to, but this isn't something that God would do, so it's not a part of the "all things possible" for Him to do.

Does that make sense?



When you say "He existed in the past", does this include the time before He came into being? Or do you believe there was a time when God did not exist yet?



We know for sure that Christ is the first fruits of all creation.

John 1:3
"Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made."

Colossians 1:16
"For in him all things were created: things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or powers or rulers or authorities; all things have been created through him and for him."

So even before all things were made, we have God the Father making all things through Christ and for Christ.




Yes, that's exactly what it means:

John 1:14
"The Word became flesh and made his dwelling among us. We have seen his glory, the glory of the one and only Son, who came from the Father, full of grace and truth."



I'm not sure it's accurate to say matter was already existing. If it was then we have to ask: Did God create matter or did both God and matter come into being together, if so how? Was this a random event formed out of chaos? How does random chaos preexist a perfectly rational God?




I think it's true that Jesus, being in the flesh(matter), did learn wisdom from God the Father(Spirit), but I'm very suspicious of the thought that God the Father had to learn wisdom, rather than wisdom coming from Himself and given to His creation.



Hope you don't mind if I reword this to help you understand what I belive is true:

"So I guess what I'm saying is...before God(Jesus in the flesh), there existed energy, space and time(Spirit of God the Father)."

"These were chaotic and random, forming and unforming unimaginable things continously (in layman's terms). At some point, they merged together to prepare a rational being- God."

So chaos and randomness is eternal, having no beginning, but it somehow caused an all powerful God who created us? So we should be thanking chaos and randomness for causing God to exist and even God Himself should give credit to this chaos and randomness that brought Him into being? Where's the scripture that supports this notion?

To me it seems far more likely to say that the Spirit of God the Father is eternal and He spoke creation into existence for a specific reason, that reason being Jesus Christ, His Son.



But what you're saying is that God is not the first causer because chaos and randomness caused Him first.



If chaos and randomness caused God, then God was not the first causer of everything that is.

Again, I think it's more logical to say God is eternal order and reason and that He caused/created everything that is. The notions of chaos and randomness are human constructs that we use to explain the unexplainable, but God is explainable because He can explain Himself and ultimately it is Him and His word that we should rely on. I know you know this



I think there are illogical implications, namely the fact that if what you're saying is true then God is not the first causer of everything that exists. Rather, chaos and randomness would be the first causer of God who then created everything that is not chaotic or random. This means chaos and randomness is eternal, having no beginning, no cause, and God Himself would have to acknowledge that He came from chaos and randomness, which is not scriptural at all. While I do think that what you're saying is possible and I understand why you believe it, I just don't see how scripture supports what you're claiming.



No problem, I enjoy thinking through these things with an open heart to what God wants us to understand about Himself. It's easy to rely on our own understanding without realizing it, but that can lead to confusion, I always try to remember to reset and just ask God to help me understand. Thanks again

I'm sorry my friend...I cannot discuss this right now. I had wrote a response, and then I lost Internet and everything I wrote. I need to think about this longer, perhaps several years. I cannot write about this in public as it may lead people to believe the Scriptures copied the Babylonian account of creation. I believe the Babylonians copied the Scriptures because Nimrod was Noah's great-grandson, so I see no issue. However, I do admit it's hard for me to understand how an orderly being could come from chaos, but it's not necessarily unfathomable. Sometimes I just have to think about things a bit longer. I will write you back at the Matthew 25 thread shortly. Thank you so much for everything. God bless you.

 

[anonymouswho]

I'm sorry, I said I would write you back at Matthew 25 and you didn't write anything there. I'm talking to a lot of people right now, so I got mixed up. You're welcome to join us though. Thank you.

 

[Chriliman]

I'm sorry my friend...I cannot discuss this right now. I had wrote a response, and then I lost Internet and everything I wrote. I need to think about this longer, perhaps several years. I cannot write about this in public as it may lead people to believe the Scriptures copied the Babylonian account of creation. I believe the Babylonians copied the Scriptures because Nimrod was Noah's great-grandson, so I see no issue. However, I do admit it's hard for me to understand how an orderly being could come from chaos, but it's not necessarily unfathomable. Sometimes I just have to think about things a bit longer. I will write you back at the Matthew 25 thread shortly. Thank you so much for everything. God bless you.

Thank you as well. It's been a pleasure. God bless!

 

[Fascinated With God]

And remember the angels who did not keep their principalities, but left their proper home. The Lord has kept these angels in ·darkness [gloom; the nether world or underworld; the place of the dead], bound with everlasting chains, to be judged on the great day.
Jude 1:6 Expanded Bible (EXB)​

This verse is pretty amazing because it is one of only two verses that uses a Greek word that Young's Literal Translation admits as actually referring to eternity. The other one being Romans 1:20.

Also note the way zophos / darkness has a tricky translation. Here is another verse that uses zophos in conjunction with Tartarus, the Greek version of the Abyss where the elder gods and the Titans are imprisoned:

For if God did not spare the angels when they sinned, but cast them into hell [Greek: Tartarus] and committed them to pits of nether gloom to be kept until the judgment;
2 Peter 2:4 Revised Standard Version (RSV)​

Once again, most translations say "chains of darkness" for the Greek zophos, but 13 out of 52 translations use the word 'gloom' again, and the RSV says "nether gloom" again. There are two other uses of zophos, 2 Peter 2:17 and Jude 13. These two refer to people in the same manner as fallen angels.

 

[Der Alte]

And remember the angels who did not keep their principalities, but left their proper home. The Lord has kept these angels in ·darkness [gloom; the nether world or underworld; the place of the dead], bound with everlasting chains, to be judged on the great day.
Jude 1:6 Expanded Bible (EXB)​

This verse is pretty amazing because it is one of only two verses that uses a Greek word that Young's Literal Translation admits as actually referring to eternity. The other one being Romans 1:20....

I invite you to read my [Post #1071] this thread. In this post I list nine (9) Greek languages sources which document that aion and its cognates do in fact mean everlasting, eternal, unending, etc.