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Universal reconciliation

Der Alte

This is me about 1 yr. old. when FDR was president
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I have thought about these verses, and since there is no indication that the rich man as any desire to repent of course he can't leave or be comforted by someone coming to see him. So I don't see this verse saying a person who repents can't get out of the place of separation.

Did you read Luke 16:26?

Luke 16:26 And beside all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed: so that they which would pass from hence to you cannot; neither can they [plural] pass to us, that would come from thence.
 
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Douglas Hendrickson

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I have thought about these verses, and since there is no indication that the rich man as any desire to repent of course he can't leave or be comforted by someone coming to see him. So I don't see this verse saying a person who repents can't get out of the place of separation.

I would think at this point he TOTALLY REPENTS of everything he did or didn't do to get him there. (If you want to speculate about such - it is irrelevant to everything.)

Of course nobody leaves Hell - it is ETERNAL damnation. Defined by the person's life as his ultimate destination.
 
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dayhiker

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I would think at this point he TOTALLY REPENTS of everything he did or didn't do to get him there. (If you want to speculate about such - it is irrelevant to everything.)

Of course nobody leaves Hell - it is ETERNAL damnation. Defined by the person's life as his ultimate destination.

Tho Eternal is usually the word Anios which is age and really doesn't have the connotation of eternal that we put on most of the time from my studies.

Did you read Luke 16:26?

Luke 16:26 And beside all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed: so that they which would pass from hence to you cannot; neither can they [plural] pass to us, that would come from thence.
Yes, I read that and agree that God can't show mercy on him or anyone till they repent. But with God's mercy being every lasting I think there is always the opportunity to repent. That to me fits God's nature.
 
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Hillsage

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I have thought about these verses, and since there is no indication that the rich man as any desire to repent of course he can't leave or be comforted by someone coming to see him. So I don't see this verse saying a person who repents can't get out of the place of separation.
And a closer 'look' reveals even more. If you look at the reason that one 'chosen Jew' was in torment, and the other 'chosen Jew' wasn't, didn't even have anything to do with sin or sainthood. Rich guy was in torment for being rich and well fed/clothed....and Lazarus was not in torment because he suffered more here because he was poor with sores....period. Guess most of America's 'fat cat' Christians better 'drink' up as much water as they can now, and hope to hell temporal for their sakes IMO.

And, as for the CHASM so proudly quoted by those wanting eternal torture....when did Jesus speak these words? Was it before 'the cross' which today, Orthodoxy galore prints up tracts showing how the cross of Christ bridges that chasm? Maybe Jesus knew 'then' what eternal heller's don't know 'now'.
 
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Shempster

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Yous guys are arguing over a parable you know. The details are part of the story, not facts about places beyond this world.
The text is placed right within Jesus other parables and it is delivered exactly like the others. Its a parable. Its purpose was the same as the others...to show the Kingdom of God to those in Israel who would listen and hide the meaning from the pharisees and stubborn unbelievers.
 
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Douglas Hendrickson

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Tho Eternal is usually the word Anios which is age and really doesn't have the connotation of eternal that we put on most of the time from my studies.
Yes, I read that and agree that God can't show mercy on him or anyone till they repent. But with God's mercy being every lasting I think there is always the opportunity to repent. That to me fits God's nature.

Perhaps you can dismiss "eternal" that way, but you are still left with "ultimate." I do not claim to be quoting scripture but using ordinary English. And you then seem to accept "ever lasting" as applicable.

You figure THE NON-LIVING somehow have the capacity to repent? How do you figure that - I would like to see your speculation, based on nothing I would imagine.
 
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Hillsage

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Yous guys are arguing over a parable you know. The details are part of the story, not facts about places beyond this world.
The text is placed right within Jesus other parables and it is delivered exactly like the others. Its a parable. Its purpose was the same as the others...to show the Kingdom of God to those in Israel who would listen and hide the meaning from the pharisees and stubborn unbelievers.
Not me. ;) Matters not if it's parabolic or reality....the points I've made are factual for both.
 
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dayhiker

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Perhaps you can dismiss "eternal" that way, but you are still left with "ultimate." I do not claim to be quoting scripture but using ordinary English. And you then seem to accept "ever lasting" as applicable.

You figure THE NON-LIVING somehow have the capacity to repent? How do you figure that - I would like to see your speculation, based on nothing I would imagine.

We all know so little about the next life that its hard to be very definitive about any point. My point is the God is merciful to a greater extent and God hates to judge. It very well could be that some would never repent, maybe most! I an friends with a lot of people that spend no time thinking about Jesus and the salvation he offers. Yet they spend a lot of time thinking about how they can love people. So when presented with Jesus and how much Jesus loves them in the next life I'm sure they would accept that love and repent. Once they repent its completely consistent to me that Jesus will accept them just as he did me. If they can't repent and somehow turn from love to hating then ya they will remain separated from God as the churches I've been apart of teach.
 
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Der Alte

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Yous guys are arguing over a parable you know. The details are part of the story, not facts about places beyond this world.
The text is placed right within Jesus other parables and it is delivered exactly like the others. Its a parable. Its purpose was the same as the others...to show the Kingdom of God to those in Israel who would listen and hide the meaning from the pharisees and stubborn unbelievers.

All of Jesus' parables explained/clarified an unknown or misunderstood spiritual truth by comparing it to something known such as lost sheep, lost coins, a wayward son, etc. What is the known situation and what is the unknown spiritual truth in Luke 16:19-32? The only events which might be in the experience of Jesus' audience is a poor man begging and a wealthy man living rich. In all the legitimate parables the characters are anonymous, a certain man, a certain widow, a shepherd, etc. At some point in history an anonymous widow lost coins, an anonymous shepherd lost a sheep, etc.

In the story of Lazarus and the rich man there are two specific persons named, Lazarus and Abraham, a known historical Biblical figure. Jesus did not identify the Lazarus story as a parable and He did not explain it to His disciples afterward. If a specific beggar named Lazarus was not thrown down at a rich man's gate and if Abraham was not in the place Jesus specified and did not say the words Jesus quoted, Jesus was a liar.
 
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BukiRob

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I am "REFUSING to understand or read scripture" from your mindset which is really what you are taking an offense at IMO. I just might 'see' a little better 'than you think'. I say that because you're last statement goes from myopic to blind. I do not believe anyone is getting away with 'no consequences' to sin. If you haven't SEEN that, then it's really helps others to 'see' why you come in blasting with the authority of a Bonnie/Clyde based OPINION....which I believe I've scripturally refuted and you've never rebutted.


AS I said, you do not understand the jewish mindset. Scripture was written by jewish believers, in a jewish setting and culture.
 
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Hillsage

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Great, then just refute my two prior posts from your Jewish mindset. But this time please give me more than just your self professed 'Jewish opinion. So far all I've seen is a Hollywood mindset with a Bonnie/Clyde reference which fell a bit short of Christian standards IMO.

post 1023
EPH 2:7 that in the coming ages he might show the immeasurable riches of his grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus. 8 For by grace you have been saved through faith; and this is not your own doing, it is the gift of God --

Amazing how 'they' can read and never see what is clearly written. They boldly quote verse 8, to support their own 'deservedness', of salvation by unmerited GRACE. But then they limit God , in the very context of scripture, to this AGE only. It's simply a myopic vision producing a near sighted theology. Never allowing that "God may be all in all".

PHI 2:11 And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

post 1025
HEB 9:27 And just as it is appointed for men to die once, and after that comes judgment, 28 so Christ, having been offered once to bear the sins of many, will appear a second time, not to deal with sin but to save those who are eagerly waiting for him.

Gee, I wonder who's died that is going to be eagerly waiting to be saved from their sin by a judgment from Christ, who'd already dealt with sin's punishment for all? It can't be YOU, "waiting to be saved" because YOU'RE already SAVED...right? So I think it just 'might be' those who the bible says were never "predestined, called, chosen, drawn and lastly ordained to believe" in this age. But hey, maybe you're right and I'm wrong. Although, I gotta admit, you aren't doing much of a job convincing me so far.

added to the quote; "by unmerited GRACE"
 
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Der Alte

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Did you read Luke 16:26?

Luke 16:26 And beside all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed: so that they which would pass from hence to you cannot; neither can they [plural] pass to us, that would come from thence.

Tho Eternal is usually the word Anios which is age and really doesn't have the connotation of eternal that we put on most of the time from my studies.

Yes, I read that and agree that God can't show mercy on him or anyone till they repent. But with God's mercy being every lasting I think there is always the opportunity to repent. That to me fits God's nature.

Evidently you don't believe the words that Jesus spoke in Luke 16:26 "neither can they [in hades] pass to us, that would come from there." The words of Jesus don't allow for an opportunity to repent.
Nine language sources cited. Fourteen total references! 1. NAS Hebrew-Aramaic and Greek Dictionaries, 2. Thayer’s Lexicon, 3. Vine’s Expository of Biblical Words, 3 references, 4. Louw-Nida Greek English Lexicon of the NT based on Semantic Domains, 2 references, 5. Theological Dictionary of the New Testament, 6. Abridged Greek lexicon, Liddell-Scott, 7. Enhanced Strong’s Lexicon, 3 references, 8. Bauer, Arndt, Gingrich, Danker Greek English Lexicon of the NT and other Early Christian Literature, 9. Concise Greek-English Dictionary of the NT.

Aion, Aionios and the lexicons:
166. αιωνιος aionios; from 165; agelong, eternal:— eternal(66), eternity(1), forever(1).

Thomas, Robert L., Th.D., General Editor, New American Standard Hebrew-Aramaic and Greek Dictionaries,
166 aionios- αιωνιος
1) without beginning and end, what has always been and always will be
2) without beginning
3) without end, never to cease, everlasting


---Thayers
2. αιωνιος aionios [166] "describes duration, either undefined but not endless, as in <Rom. 16:25; 2 Tim. 1:9; Titus 1:2>; or undefined because endless as in <Rom. 16:26>, and the other sixty-six places in the NT.

"The predominant meaning of αιωνιος , that in which it is used everywhere in the NT, save the places noted above, may be seen in <2 Cor. 4:18>, where it is set in contrast with proskairos, lit., `for a season,' and in <Philem. 15>, where only in the NT it is used without a noun. Moreover it is used of persons and things which are in their nature endless, as, e. g., of God, <Rom. 16:26>; of His power, <1 Tim. 6:16>, and of His glory, <1 Pet. 5:10>; of the Holy Spirit, <Heb. 9:14>; of the redemption effected by Christ, <Heb. 9:12>, and of the consequent salvation of men, <5:9>, as well as of His future rule, <2 Pet. 1:11>, which is elsewhere declared to be without end, <Luke 1:33>; of the life received by those who believe in Christ, <John 3:16>, concerning whom He said, `they shall never perish,' <10:28>, and of the resurrection body, <2 Cor. 5:1>, elsewhere said to be `immortal,' <1 Cor. 15:53>, in which that life will be finally realized, <Matt. 25:46; Titus 1:2>.


αιωνιος is also used of the sin that `hath never forgiveness,' <Mark 3:29>, and of the judgment of God, from which there is no appeal, <Heb. 6:2>, and of the fire, which is one of its instruments, <Matt. 18:8; 25:41; Jude 7>, and which is elsewhere said to be `unquenchable,' <Mark 9:43>.

"The use of αιωνιος here shows that the punishment referred to in <2 Thes. 1:9>, is not temporary, but final, and, accordingly, the phraseology shows that its purpose is not remedial but retributive."

From Notes on Thessalonians, by Hogg and Vine, pp 232, 233. (from Vine's Expository Dictionary of Biblical Words) (Copyright (C) 1985, Thomas Nelson Publishers)
67.96 αιωνιος aji>vdio", on; aijwvnio", on: pertaining to an unlimited duration of time - ‘eternal.’
aji>vdio"ò h{ te aji>vdio" aujtou` duvnami" kai; qeiovth" ‘his eternal power and divine nature’ Ro 1.20.
aijwvnio"ò blhqh`nai eij" to; pu`r to; aijwvnion ‘be thrown into the eternal fire’ Mt 18.8; tou` aijwnivou qeou` ‘of the eternal God’ Ro 16.26.

The most frequent use of αιωνιος in the NT is with zwhv ‘life,’ for example, i{na pa`" oJ pisteuvwn ejn aujtw/` e[ch/ zwh;n aijwvnion ‘so that everyone who believes in him may have eternal life’ Jn 3.15. In combination with zwhv there is evidently not only a temporal element, but also a qualitative distinction. In such contexts, αιωνιος evidently carries certain implications associated with αιωνιος in relationship to divine and supernatural attributes. If one translates ‘eternal life’ as simply ‘never dying,’ there may be serious misunderstandings, since persons may assume that ‘never dying’ refers only to physical existence rather than to ‘spiritual death.’ Accordingly, some translators have rendered ‘eternal life’ as ‘unending real life,’ so as to introduce a qualitative distinction.


Louw, Johannes P. and Nida, Eugene A., Greek-English Lexicon of the New Testament based on Semantic Domains, (New York: United Bible Societies) 1988, 1989.
αιωνιος aionios. An adjective meaning “eternal,” and found in the LXX in Pss. 24; 77:5; Gen. 21:33, aionios in the NT is used 1. of God (Rom. 16:26), 2. of divine possessions and gifts (2 Cor. 4:18; Heb. 9:14; 1 Pet. 5:10; 1 Tim. 6:16; 2 Th. 2:16, and 3. of the eternal kingdom (2 Pet. 1:11), inheritance (Heb. 9:15), body (2 Cor. 5:1), and even judgment (Heb. 6:2, though cf. Mt. 18:8; 2 Th. 1:9, where the sense is perhaps “unceasing”).

Kittel, Gerhard, and Friedrich, Gerhard, Editors, The Theological Dictionary of the New Testament, Abridged in One Volume, (Grand Rapids, Michigan: William B. Eerdmans Publishing Company) 1985.
αιωνιος aionios ", ov and a, ov, lasting for an age (aion 3), Plat.: ever-lasting, eternal, Id.

Liddell, H. G., and Scott, Abridged Greek-English Lexicon, (Oxford: Oxford University Press) 1992.
166 aionios { ahee-o’-nee-os} αιωνιος from 165; TDNT - 1:208,31; adj
AV - eternal 42, everlasting 25, the world began + 5550 2, since the world began + 5550 1, for ever 1; 71

GK - 173 { aionios }
1) without beginning and end, that which always has been and always will be
2) without beginning
3) without end, never to cease, everlasting


Enhanced Strong’s Lexicon, (Oak Harbor, WA: Logos Research Systems, Inc.) 1995.
CL The Gk. word αιων aion, which is probably derived from aei, … It thus appeared appropriate to later philosophers to use the word both for the dim and distant past, the beginning of the world, and for the far future, eternity (e.g. Plato, Tim. 37d).

Plato (Timoeus, ed. Steph. 3, 37, or ed. Baiter, Orell. et Winck. 712) says, speaking of the universe: …The nature therefore of the animal (living being) was eternal (aionios, before aidios), and this indeed it was impossible to adapt to what was produced (to genneto, to what had a beginning); he thinks to make a moveable image of eternity (aionos), and in adoring the heavens he makes of the eternity permanent in unity a certain eternal image moving in number, … And after unfolding this, he says (p. 38): "But these forms of time imitating eternity (aiona), and rolling round according to number, have had a beginning (gegonen).... For that pattern exists for all eternity (panta aiona estin on), but on the other hand, that which is perpetual (dia telous) throughout all time has had a beginning, and is, and will be." … Aion is what is properly eternal, in contrast with a divine imitation of it in ages of time, the result of the creative action of God which imitated the uncreate as nearly as He could in created ages.. ]

In Plato the term is developed so as to represent a timeless, immeasurable and transcendent super-time, an idea of time in itself. Plutarch and the earlier Stoics appropriate this understanding, and from it the Mysteries of Aion, the god of eternity, could be celebrated in Alexandria, and gnosticism could undertake its own speculations on time.
* * *

NIDNTT Colin Brown
Wherefore neither in place are things there formed by nature; nor does time cause them to grow old: neither is there any change of anything of those things which are arranged beyond the outermost orbit; but unchangeable, and subject to no influence, having the best and most independent life, they continue for all eternity (aiona). … According to the same word (logon) the completeness of the whole heaven, and the completeness which embraces all time and infinitude is aion, having received this name from existing for ever (apo tou aei einai), immortal (athanatos, undying), and divine." In 10 he goes on to shew that that beginning to be (genesthai) involves the not existing always, which I refer to as shewing what he means by aion. He is proving the unchangeable eternity of the visible universe. That is no business of mine; but it shews what he means by eternity (aion). It cannot be aidion and genesthai at the same time, when, as in Plato, aidios is used as equivalent to aionios.
 
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Der Alte

This is me about 1 yr. old. when FDR was president
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Previous post continued.
Philo, the sentence is in De Mundo, 7, en aioni de oute pareleluthen ouden, oute mellei, alla monon iphesteken. Such a definition needs no explanation: in eternity nothing is passed, nothing is about to be, but only subsists. This has the importance of being of the date and Hellenistic Greek of the New Testament, as the others give the regular, and at the same time philosophical force of the word, aion, aionios. Eternity, unchangeable, with no 'was' nor 'will be,' is its proper force, that it can be applied to the whole existence of a thing, so that nothing of its nature was before true or after is true, to telos to periechon. But its meaning is eternity, and eternal. … That is, things that are for a time are put in express contrast with aionia, which are not for a time, be it age or ages, but eternal. Nothing can be more decisive of its positive and specific meaning.

0166 aionios αιωνιος without beginning or end, eternal, everlasting
LEH lxx lexicon
UBS GNT Dict. # 169 (Str#166)

aionios eternal (of quality rather than of time); unending, everlasting, for all time
αιωνιος (iva Pla., Tim. 38b; Jer 39:40; Ezk 37:26; 2 Th 2:16; Hb 9:12; as v.l. Ac 13:48; 2 Pt 1:11; Bl-D. §59, 2; Mlt.-H. 157), on eternal (since Hyperid. 6, 27; Pla.; inscr., pap., LXX; Ps.-Phoc. 112; Test. 12 Patr.; standing epithet for princely, esp. imperial power: Dit., Or. Index VIII; BGU 176; 303; 309; Sb 7517, 5 [211/2 ad] kuvrio" aij.; al. in pap.; Jos., Ant. 7, 352).

1. without beginning crovnoi" aij. long ages ago Ro 16:25; pro; crovnwn aij. before time began 2 Ti 1:9; Tit 1:2 (on crovno" aij. cf. Dit., Or. 248, 54; 383, 10).
2. without beginning or end; of God (Ps.-Pla., Tim. Locr. 96c qeo;n t. aijwvnion; Inscr. in the Brit. Mus. 894 aij. k. ajqavnato"; Gen 21:33; Is 26:4; 40:28; Bar 4:8 al.; Philo, Plant. 8; 74; Sib. Or., fgm. 3, 17 and 4; PGM 1, 309; 13, 280) Ro 16:26; of the Holy Spirit in Christ Hb 9:14. qrovno" aij. 1 Cl 65:2 (cf. 1 Macc 2:57).
3. without end (Diod. S. 1, 1, 5; 5, 73, 1; 15, 66, 1 dovxa aij. everlasting fame; in Diod. S. 1, 93, 1 the Egyptian dead are said to have passed to their aij. …keep someone forever Phlm 15 (cf. Job 40:28). …On the other hand of eternal life (Maximus Tyr. 6, 1d qeou` zwh; aij.; Diod. S. 8, 15, 3 life meta; to;n qavnaton lasts eij" a{panta aijw`na; Da 12:2; 4 Macc 15:3; PsSol 3, 12; Philo, …carav IPhld inscr.; doxavzesqai aijwnivw/ e[rgw/ be glorified by an everlasting deed IPol 8:1. DHill, Gk. Words and Hebr. Mngs. ’67, 186-201. M-M.


Bauer, Walter, Gingrich, F. Wilbur, and Danker, Frederick W., A Greek-English Lexicon of the New Testament and Other Early Christian Literature, (Chicago: University of Chicago Press) 1979.

BIBLE STUDY MANUALS - AIONIOS -- AN IN DEPTH STUDY

αιωνιος
Strong's - Greek 165
NRSV (the uses of the word in various contexts in the NRSV text):
again, age, course, end, eternal, forever, permanent, time, world, worlds
CGED (A Concise Greek-English Dictionary of the New Testament, by Barclay M. Newman, New York: United Bible Societies, 1993, page 5):
age; world order; eternity (ap aion or pro aion, from the beginning; eis aion, and the strengthened form eis tous aion, ton aion, always, forever);
The New International Dictionary of New Testament Theology [NIDNTT], Volume 3 (edited by Colin Brown, Grand Rapids, Michigan: Zondervan, 1978, page 827, 830):

In Plato the term [aion] is developed so as to represent a timeless, immeasurable and transcendent super-time, an idea of time in itself. Plutarch and other earlier Stoics appropriate this understanding, and from it the Mysteries of Aion, the god of eternity, could be celebrated in Alexandria, and gnosticism could undertake its own speculations on time.

The statements of the Johannine [John, 1 John, 2 John, 3 John] writings, … reveal a strong inclination to conceive of a timeless, because post-temporal, eternity… As in the OT [Old Testament], these statements reveal the background conviction that God's life never ends, i.e. that everything belonging to him can also never come to an end
aion - αιων - age, world
A. "for ever, an unbroken age, perpetuity of time, eternity; the worlds, universe; period of time, age."


Enhanced Strong’s Lexicon, (Oak Harbor, WA: Logos Research Systems, Inc.) 1995, [Online] Available: Logos Library System.

aionion, aioniosαιωνιον, αιωνιος - eternal
B. "aionios," the adjective corresponding, denoting eternal. It is used of that which in nature is endless, as, e.g., of God, (Rom. 16:26), His power, (1 Tim. 6:16), His glory, (1 Pet. 5:10), the Holy Spirit, (Heb. 9:14), redemption, (Heb. 9:12), salvation, (5:9), life in Christ, (John 3:16), the resurrection body, (2 Cor. 5:1), the future rule of Christ, (2 Pet. 1:11), which is declared to be without end, (Luke 1:33), of sin that never has forgiveness, (Mark 3:29), the judgment of God, (Heb. 6:2), and of fire, one of its instruments, (Matt. 18:8; 25:41; Jude 7)."
i. Rom. 16:26 - " . . .according to the commandment of the eternal God. . ."
ii. 1 Tim. 6:16 - ". . . To Him be honor and eternal dominion! Amen."
iii. 1 Pet. 5:10 - " . . . who called you to His eternal glory in Christ,"
iv. Mark 3:29 - " . . . never has forgiveness, but is guilty of an eternal sin."
v. etc.


SOURCE: Vine, W. E., Vine’s Expository Dictionary of Old and New Testament Words, (Grand Rapids, MI: Fleming H. Revell) 1981, Available: Logos Library System.

• "describes duration, either undefined but not endless, as in Rom. 16:25; 2 Tim. 1:9; Tit. 1:2; or undefined because endless as in Rom. 16:26, and the other sixty–six places in the N.T.
A. Rom. 16:25 - " . . which has been kept secret for long ages past,"
B. Rom 16:26 - ". . . according to the commandment of the eternal God,"
C. 2 Tim. 1:9 - ". . . which was granted us in Christ Jesus from all eternity,"
D. Titus 1:2 - "the hope of eternal life, which God, who cannot lie, promised" long ages ago"


SOURCE: Vine, W. E., Vine’s Expository Dictionary of Old and New Testament Words, (Grand Rapids, MI: Fleming H. Revell) 1981, [Online] Available: Logos Library System)

• Eis tous aionios ton aionion – εις τους αιωνας των αιωνιωον - Forever and Ever, Lit. "into the age of the ages"
A. "unlimited duration of time, with particular focus upon the future - ‘always, forever, forever and ever, eternally."
B. Phil. 4:20 - ". . .to our God and Father be the glory forever and ever."
C. Rev. 19:3 - " . . .Her smoke rises up forever and ever."
D. Rev. 20:20 - "And the devil who deceived them was thrown into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are also; and they will be tormented day and night forever and ever."

SOURCE: Louw, Johannes P. and Nida, Eugene A., Greek-English Lexicon of the New Testament based on Semantic Domains, (New York: United Bible Societies) 1988, 1989, Available: Logos Library System.
 
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JoeP222w

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I'm reading a book a book whose purpose is to give "three views of hell", traditional, anihilation, and universal reconciliation. My question is, " do you think universal reconciliation is heresy?

Simple answer, yes, universal reconciliation (as well as annihilation) is indeed heresy. It is completely unbiblical.

Anyone could stand 10,000 years in Hell if they knew that they would end up in Heaven anyways. And that would violate God's perfect and infinite righteousness and justice. That is why Hell is eternal. And even after 10 billion years in Hell, those in Hell will still shake their fist at God and say "I hate you!"
 
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Der Alte

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Simple answer, yes, universal reconciliation (as well as annihilation) is indeed heresy. It is completely unbiblical.

Anyone could stand 10,000 years in Hell if they knew that they would end up in Heaven anyways. And that would violate God's perfect and infinite righteousness and justice. That is why Hell is eternal. And even after 10 billion years in Hell, those in Hell will still shake their fist at God and say "I hate you!"

I agree. If people are thrown into hell for a longer or shorter time, will they suddenly love God who placed them there? Those same unrepentant people don't love the judges and juries who send them to prison here in this world. Why would anyone think they will be any different in God's judgement.
 
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Shempster

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If we are going to be dogmatic about it all then we should conclude that rich people are doomed to eternal torture. After all, they had it good in life and now its payback time.
And the poor shall go to heaven. After all, they suffered in life and get to live it up forever. And the best part is that they get to watch all of those nasty rich folks writhing in agony like watching the fights on tv.
 
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Hillsage

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If we are going to be dogmatic about it all then we should conclude that rich people are doomed to eternal torture. After all, they had it good in life and now its payback time.
And the poor shall go to heaven. After all, they suffered in life and get to live it up forever
that's pretty much the summation of the rich man and Lazarus story. All the extra, extra biblical rhetoric simply comes from the corruptted traditions and commandments of men IMO.
 
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Der Alte

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If we are going to be dogmatic about it all then we should conclude that rich people are doomed to eternal torture. After all, they had it good in life and now its payback time.
And the poor shall go to heaven. After all, they suffered in life and get to live it up forever. And the best part is that they get to watch all of those nasty rich folks writhing in agony like watching the fights on tv.

Where does it say that the events in the story of Lazarus and the rich man is the norm for everyone? Other than what is stated in the story, it does not tell us anything about their lives whether they were sinful or not. But there is a commandment that the rich man did not obey. Lazarus was not even given the crumbs from the rich man's table.
Deuteronomy 15:7-8 If there be among you a poor man of one of thy brethren within any of thy gates in thy land which the LORD thy God giveth thee, thou shalt not harden thine heart, nor shut thine hand from thy poor brother:
8 But thou shalt open thine hand wide unto him, and shalt surely lend him sufficient for his need, in that which he wanteth.
Deuteronomy 15:11 For the poor shall never cease out of the land: therefore I command thee, saying, Thou shalt open thine hand wide unto thy brother, to thy poor, and to thy needy, in thy land.
 
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