Unity in America

[All4Christ]

I think you're making progress in explaining yourself.

I'll try to comment with my impressions, and if you have more to say on it (or not) ...

I can easily say we don't have anyone in our Church that REALLY embodies the folks from "My Big Fat Greek Wedding" in terms of saying every word is from Greek and the Greek culture is best. (We DO certainly have Greeks, mostly immigrants, but there is not an air of superiority about them.) People cook what they know, so most often it IS Greek food, but not always. Of course the Greek Festival is VERY ethnic, but that seems to be the point. On a Sunday (over Sundays for the litanies) about 80-90% of the service is heard in both Greek and English. The homily, Gospel, and blessings are always in English. Epistle usually in both. The hymns are about 80% Greek, and maybe 20% in both. On a weekday, it can be anything from that balance to almost all English. We have people from other Orthodox traditions in our parish, and they are usually especially embraced. There are Copts, Russians, and Romanians that attend nearly every week. Father always asks for anyone who knows the Lord's Prayer in any other language to recite it at that point in the service - we usually have Russian, Romanian, and Spanish, sometimes others. We have people from other ethnicities in our parish, and they are as warmly welcomed as anyone. Most of the iconography and things seen in the Church are Greek/Byzantine, but not all. Crosses are mostly Russian, Celtic, and Roman.

I don't know anything about compositions. Ours do vary at times. But I'm not knowledgeable enough to comment much. When our outstanding chanter from Greece chants, I think it's very old Byzantine. When the young American guy (I'm sure he's going to become a priest or monk or both) chants, it's all in English. We sometimes have different arrangements for the choir, but most often the same - I don't know the source though.

The people seem to identify mostly with being Orthodox. What they generally know very little about are other Churches/denominations. They tend to know a little about Catholics, but most seem to know nothing about any Protestant group (among the cradle Orthodox, which we have mostly). I just realized, I probably know far more about denominations than almost anyone there - and I'm not an expert or anything. But I'm the one that seems to always answer any questions. Father is a convert, but he seems to have had a limited variety of background and was fairly young when he became Orthodox. (I don't mean this to brag, but just to say they ARE pretty insulated as far as being Orthodox, but not as far as being Greek.) The ironic thing about them knowing little about other denominations is that they don't look down on them - they seem to assume that others all believe similarly to the Orthodox, more so than knowing the differences. They are often surprised - shocked even - if I explain some major difference between Orthodox and others.

So I think many of the cradle Orthodox who are immigrants almost think the Church IS based more on culture than faith, because they may assume all the other faiths are essentially the same or very similar. But this doesn't seem to carry into their attitude, as in any kind of "Greeks are better than everyone else." I do think they would prefer their children/grandchildren marry other Greeks, but most don't and I see everyone warmly welcomed as long as they embrace the Church.

So ... that's my impression.

A bit rushed on time, but I want to make clear that based on my discussions with you, I wouldn't think that your church was anything like the negative comments I posted. That's what was concerning me in that I don't want anyone to think that I am bunching all Greek churches (or other churches comprised of mainly one ethnicity) into that. Like I said, the one near us is great as well.

I really wish I could remove what I said, because it really seems like it sounded very prejudiced and I really didn't mean to have any air of superiority. I have a very long ways to go and I respect your church and others made up primarily of other ethnic groups. I was trying in a very poor attempt to explain in my previous post that I don't think we should deny the validity of diversity in Orthodox Churches, including churches with ethnic backgrounds - and that many (most) are not like the extreme points that I made.

I've said what I think the ideal is, but I don't think that we are any better than your church, Kylissa. I don't want you or anyone else to think that. I'm thinking perhaps I shouldn't have posted anything that I did. I maintain what I said in my first post about language. I do know of cases where children grew up with their culture being more important to them than their faith (in this case it was Serbian not Greek), but I know without a doubt that I can't and won't make a blanket statement about that being the case with all churches.

I'll try to explain more later, when I am not tired, when I'm on my PC instead of my phone, and when have time to properly explain my thoughts.

 

[buzuxi02]

I hear the "ethnic" thing way too much in my usual circles...but somehow don't experience it...guess I need to get out more for some have said I've only "experience the good Orthodox"

You live a sheltered life Mr. Jim
You can never experience the ethnic way until you visit an Orthodox Church displaying both an American and Greek flag in the heart of Chinatown:

 

[Shieldmaiden4Christ]

The original objection my parents had to Orthodoxy (when I was first contemplating between Anglican, Roman Catholic and Eastern Orthodox way back in the day) is that what little people know of it, it's perceived as very "ethnic", divided and "weird". I think as life and time progress in the U.S., something will streamline Orthodoxy here. What's interesting is that both the southwest and northwest sides of the suburbs of my city are heavily populated. I live on the NW side, and there are absolutely no Orthodox churches. On the SW side of town, there are various parishes, some less than 10 miles away from one another. I think there's an OCA, ROCOR and Antiochian parish in a little triangle.

 

[All4Christ]

Ok...as @Kylissa requested me to explain, this is my humble opinion of an ideal way of dealing with the various jurisdictions in America (some of my thoughts are similar to Greg's comments):

1. We shouldn't have jurisdictions specifically for any different culture. Different churches should be able to follow the style they want to follow, but that shouldn't be the defining factor of how jurisdictions are separated. If a church is primarily built by a specific ethnicity then that's fine if they want to follow that, but it shouldn't have to be that style or typically be that style if they are in that jurisdiction.
2. We should remove designations like Greek, OCA, Serbian, Antiochian from our churches so we are just the American Orthodox Church (it could include all of America, not just the USA). Example names could be Holy Trinity Orthodox Church, St. John Chrysostom Orthodox Church, Holy Apostles Orthodox Mission, etc.
3. Services should always be primarily in the language of the people. That may not be English if the community primarily speaks a different language (French, Spanish, or other languages of sub-cultures in America). Other languages can be used, as long as the language of the vernacular is also used. Respect for our heritage is important as we have been given a great gift when other countries brought Orthodoxy into America.
4. We should include sharing our Orthodox faith in any festival or cultural event (our local churches do this at their festivals)
5. All Orthodox parishioners from every jurisdiction should learn about the styles other Orthodox churches use and share experiences. Perhaps we can even have a Pan-Orthodox service each month where we have a joint service that is hosted by churches of various jurisdictions.
6. We should fellowship together and have joint conferences, pan-Orthodox ministries (possibly led by a specific jurisdiction but participated in by all), pan-Orthodox Bible / church studies, Bible schools, etc.
7. We should have Pan-Orthodox conferences on a more regular basis.

These are just a few thoughts. I doubt that all of this would happen universally across America, but many of these are followed by some churches and areas. If we could increase this sense of community, I think it would go far to helping the situation we have today in America.

 

[GregConstantine]

All4Christ, your list is very similar to the one I gave a few posts ago. I wish others would comment on some of the specific points we both made. I'd like to hear people's thoughts on them. Especially removing the ethnic monikers from our parishes official names, and revamping the structures of the pan Orthodox ministries so it falls under one jurisdiction's bishop or metropolitan, but is participated in by members from all jurisdictions.

The pastoral issue of lay people being able to go to another priest or bishop when being told something they don't like is another serious problem that needs to be addressed.

 

[~Anastasia~]

Will try to comment more later (I'm on break at work now) but I just wanted to say, All4Christ, that I didn't read your posts as problematic. I knew I was simply misunderstanding you. But, if you really are concerned - you can edit your posts in any way you like, and if my quotes include your things you wish to edit, please let me know and I'll be happy to trim or delete the quote. I wouldn't want you feeling badly over anything (though I don't think you need to). Just let me know.

 

[All4Christ]

All4Christ, your list is very similar to the one I gave a few posts ago. I wish others would comment on some of the specific points we both made. I'd like to hear people's thoughts on them. Especially removing the ethnic monikers from our parishes official names, and revamping the structures of the pan Orthodox ministries so it falls under one jurisdiction's bishop or metropolitan, but is participated in by members from all jurisdictions.

The pastoral issue of lay people being able to go to another priest or bishop when being told something they don't like is another serious problem that needs to be addressed.

Yea, I really think your list was a good start for us to move towards...I don't know how to encourage it to happen though! I added those two points to my thoughts so it could be mentioned again (since it was several pages ago that you mentioned it).

I also agree about the pastoral issues you mentioned. We had a similar situation with someone in our church who was chrismated under false pretenses with some of her beliefs. She was reprimanded by our priest (rightly so), left before anything could be officially done / prescribed, and went to a more liberal diocese in another jurisdiction up north a few states.

 

[All4Christ]

Will try to comment more later (I'm on break at work now) but I just wanted to say, All4Christ, that I didn't read your posts as problematic. I knew I was simply misunderstanding you. But, if you really are concerned - you can edit your posts in any way you like, and if my quotes include your things you wish to edit, please let me know and I'll be happy to trim or delete the quote. I wouldn't want you feeling badly over anything (though I don't think you need to). Just let me know.

Thanks! I just didn't want to cause people (and you!) to be confused on what I meant and feel like I am criticizing them or their church. I also am limited on time at the moment - but will take a look at my post to clarify it soon.

 

[MrJim]

 

[Knee V]

I don't see why having a single, unified synod would necessarily mean that all parishes would be forcibly homogenized. Even within a single jurisdiction, and even within a single diocese within a single jurisdiction, there is diversity between parishes. I don't see why parishes that are very Greek or that have a Greek flare, or which are very Russian or have a Russian flare, etc, should have to lose those characteristics just because the bishop changes.

A few years ago someone - maybe here, maybe elsewhere - shared a few ideas about how to facilitate that process. One idea he shared was that in each diocese there would be a handful of priests who administratively serve under the bishop as liasons between the diocese and the faithful who are from the various Old World patriarchates, ensuring that their various needs are not overlooked and that they are being properly cared for.