Unity in America

[rusmeister]

Looks like it ain't ever gonna happen...
http://www.pravoslavie.ru/english/82284.htm

I'm a little surprised at the silence here on that one...

 

[MrJim]

Watching closely...this must affect those with overlapping jurisdictions I guess...when EO congregations are as scarce as they are around here not sure it's that big a deal? However when I went to check there are 11 congregations within 50 miles...Antiochian, Greek, Serbian, Romanian, OCA, Carpatho-Russian...I had no clue..

 

[buzuxi02]

Well no surprise really. The real shocker for me is that this unity thing is even being discussed.

 

[~Anastasia~]

The last line seems to sum up what I hear most often as the reason "against".

Our churches are not yet homogeneous and there are jurisdictional needs within our parishes.

They have a point. Perhaps time will make things easier? Perhaps things can be worked out some other way in the meantime. It seems to me that the Orthodox are not generally quick about anything involving change anyway.

Though it does strike me in our fairly small nearby city, we have both an Antiochian and a Greek parish within a short distance, and heading north there is very little. Along the coast though, the Greeks are well-distributed, so that no one has to drive further than I do (about a 45 or 50 minute drive some days) to reach a Church for a stretch of a few hundred miles. But the nearest Russian parish to me - I think a new one started about 250-300 miles away?

As to other issues, I'm not that knowledgeable about them. It is a treat for me to visit a large city though, and visit any number of parishes most days a week, of varying jurisdictions.

 

[buzuxi02]

I never believed the Antiochans (or anyone else for that matter) were serious about a unified American church 20 years ago, let alone right this second where christians are fleeing Syria and the Antiochan Patriarchate is in survival mode.
The bishops from traditional majority Orthodox countries maybe willing to let go but neither the EP nor the Antiochans ever will.
Countries whose people are already Orthodox have enough on their plate and are not looking to run overseas operations. Just look at the Church of Greece, they have no ambitions of playing a role among the greeks of the diaspora. Ever hear of the archbishop of Cyprus looking to establish parishes in Britain for those that refugees that fled northern Cyprus during the Turkish invasion??? Isnt there a Roumanian department within OCA?
Even the MP, regardless of what people think historically grants autocephaly or autonomy as in America, Japan, and China and does not want ROCOR to dissolve but remains autonomous.

 

[~Anastasia~]

Hmmmmm.

So if the Church remains as she is ....

What are the benefits to the Church itself - the parishes, the priests, the laity? I'm not so concerned about the upper-level politics and what they have to gain or lose. (And this question is just for curiosity's sake, to better understand the issues.

And conversely, what are the issues the Church is having to face (or will likely have to face) as a result of a lack of unity?

I know a little, but I'd really like to understand better.

 

[buzuxi02]

Personally, I don't think its a big deal. Whether under one Synod or many the problem will be the same, and that is secularization of the faithful and how to deal with and assimilate interfaith marriages.

There are still many ethnic parishes here that prefer not to have the one size fits all Synod. Heck I know two greek parishes a few miles apart, the one group mostly islanders from Chios started their own parish because they didn't mesh well with the greeks of mainland origin of the original parish. So they started their own parish naming it after one of their native saint's. Even people under the same diocese with the same ethnicity want to retain their peculiarities. Could be worse off if the bishop cant comprehend the ethnic way of thinking or cant relate to it.

 

[~Anastasia~]

Personally, I don't think its a big deal. Whether under one Synod or many the problem will be the same, and that is secularization of the faithful and how to deal with and assimilate interfaith marriages.

There are still many ethnic parishes here that prefer not to have the one size fits all Synod. Heck I know two greek parishes a few miles apart, the one group mostly islanders from Chios started their own parish because they didn't mesh well with the greeks of mainland origin of the original parish. So they started their own parish naming it after one of their native saint's. Even people under the same diocese with the same ethnicity want to retain their peculiarities. Could be worse off if the bishop cant comprehend the ethnic way of thinking or cant relate to it.

That makes sense.

The main thing it seems to me (just my own observation, which isn't worth that much) is that - if we don't have enough Churches, enough priests, to have an accessible Church for everyone, then it seems to make less sense to have 5 Churches in one small area, and none for hundreds of miles in some places.

However, "mega-Church" and Orthodoxy don't go together that well, I don't think. Our parish is about 250 families, one priest, no deacon. Father has not really quite enough time for all the demands on his time by parishioners. And I think ours is a generally modest sort of need-level. Not many confess (Father came from this area, and they remember him as a youngster, so they are hesitant - and it seems to me Greeks in general have to be pressed a bit to go to confession), we do have more than our share percentage-wise of hospital visits and funerals perhaps, and average demands by the youth I think. But at any rate, I can't see a priest really being effective alone with 500 families, or more. The most effectively-functioning parishes, from what I can tell, are about 150 or so souls, or less. So anyway, having five or ten priests/parishes in a larger city might be a necessity no matter what.

On the other hand, the culture IS important to many. It's even somewhat important to me, and I'm not even Greek. I like the sound of the chant/choir in other jurisdictions too, but I just love the atmosphere in our parish, and it would make me sad to lose it. The Greek language is important to me as well, and I wouldn't want to lose that either. The food really is awesome, as are many other things, but those are more secondary to me. Still, for those who have had it their entire lives, I can appreciate their desire to keep such things.

I know having a single head over the American Church would solve some problems, I'm sure, but it might just create others. As you said, the person could not know all the different cultures that would be gathered within his jurisdiction. And I'm sure even if it happened, there would be issues that would cause problems just in making such a major change that I don't like to dwell on.

Interesting to think about. Thank you for the reply.

 

[All4Christ]

Watching closely...this must affect those with overlapping jurisdictions I guess...when EO congregations are as scarce as they are around here not sure it's that big a deal? However when I went to check there are 11 congregations within 50 miles...Antiochian, Greek, Serbian, Romanian, OCA, Carpatho-Russian...I had no clue..

Yea around us there are all sorts of Orthodox Churches of all jurisdictions. That's why I'm so thankful for the pan-Orthodox services and mission opportunities...at least we can reaffirm our unity as a Church as a whole in the local area, even if our administrative hierarchies are different.

 

[gzt]

When considering why there are 5 parishes in one place and then nothing for a long distance, consider that parishes are where people are.

 

[All4Christ]

@Kylissa - I'm going to try to answer why this is so important...at least to me and many other Orthodox Christians in America.

So, I am aware that this post may offend some people, as it is a touchy subject...but it is something I truly feel is important and critical to Orthodoxy in America today. @Kylissa and all others, please forgive me in advance if this offends you, as that truly is not my intention.

Orthodoxy is not Greek. It is not Russian. It is not Serbian, Antiochian or even American. We have Orthodox Christians that have nationalities...but our faith does not - should not - have a nationality. We can have different flavors, so to speak, of styles of hymnography, chant, etc. Byzantine, Slavic, Antiochian, and even the American arrangements of our hymnography and chants are all beautiful and good. That said...they are not and should not be the defining factors of Orthodoxy.

Our services absolutely should be in the vernacular of people. There shouldn't be a single person who has to come into the only Orthodox Church in their area and not be able to understand half the words being spoken. We shouldn't be known primarily by our food festivals. We should be known primarily by our faith and our service to others.

I LOVE Slavonic music. I just spent an hour listening to Akafist - a Russian Male Chamber choir that sings in Slavonic. It is beautiful...makes me have goosebumps at times. That said, I would if at all possible avoid having my home parish be a church that has the music primarily or even half and half in Slavonic, no matter how beautiful. I don't want to have my future children grow up needing to learn another language to be able to understand the Divine Liturgy at the church they are attending. Why? Because Orthodoxy isn't Russian! My future kids will be Americans in America that have a primary language of English. Just because the Greek, Russian, Serbian, Antiochian communities had the faith first and brought it to America doesn't mean it should be evangelized to the community in those languages.

What happened at the time of the Pentecost? The apostles were given the ability to speak the gospel in the language of the people around them. What was the mission of Sts Cyril and Methodius? They brought Orthodoxy to the people in the language they knew.

The style of the music can be Greek, Russian, or any other nationality, but the language should primarily be in the language of the vernacular no matter what country we are talking about.

How beneficial is it for us to identify ourselves as Greek, Russian, Antiochian, OCA, Serbian, etc.? We (in America) are Orthodox Christians who happen to be American.

There are more reasons it is important on an administrative and even theological level, but I have to finish unpacking before I can write about this.

 

[All4Christ]

One more thing - considering that we likely won't be having administrative unity and the multiple Jurisdictions will likely continue, it is very important for us to fellowship with the other Orthodox jurisdictions.

Pan-Orthodox fellowship and services is crucial for us to maintain a unified Orthodoxy where we appreciate and benefit from all styles of Orthodoxy. We should learn to appreciate all styles of Orthodox hymnography, and learn to appreciate the different spiritual strengths of the various cultures.

I am so thankful that in our area, we have seven of the different church's from 5 jurisdictions join together for multiple services each year. I'm very thankful for the Pan-Orthodox choir where I learn Byzantine, Serbian, Antiochian chant/hymnography alongside the Slavonic and American. It truly feels like we are unified - and that is what I hope would be more prevalent if we had administrative unity. Sadly, there are a few churches from jurisdictions that won't participate in the Pan-Orthodox gatherings...

 

[~Anastasia~]

@Kylissa - I'm going to try to answer why this is so important...at least to me and many other Orthodox Christians in America.

So, I am aware that this post may offend some people, as it is a touchy subject...but it is something I truly feel is important and critical to Orthodoxy in America today. @Kylissa and all others, please forgive me in advance if this offends you, as that truly is not my intention.

Orthodoxy is not Greek. It is not Russian. It is not Serbian, Antiochian or even American. We have Orthodox Christians that have nationalities...but our faith does not - should not - have a nationality. We can have different flavors, so to speak, of styles of hymnography, chant, etc. Byzantine, Slavic, Antiochian, and even the American arrangements of our hymnography and chants are all beautiful and good. That said...they are not and should not be the defining factors of Orthodoxy.

Our services absolutely should be in the vernacular of people. There shouldn't be a single person who has to come into the only Orthodox Church in their area and not be able to understand half the words being spoken. We shouldn't be known primarily by our food festivals. We should be known primarily by our faith and our service to others.

I LOVE Slavonic music. I just spent an hour listening to Akafist - a Russian Male Chamber choir that sings in Slavonic. It is beautiful...makes me have goosebumps at times. That said, I would if at all possible avoid having my home parish be a church that has the music primarily or even half and half in Slavonic, no matter how beautiful. I don't want to have my future children grow up needing to learn another language to be able to understand the Divine Liturgy at the church they are attending. Why? Because Orthodoxy isn't Russian! My future kids will be Americans in America that have a primary language of English. Just because the Greek, Russian, Serbian, Antiochian communities had the faith first and brought it to America doesn't mean it should be evangelized to the community in those languages.

What happened at the time of the Pentecost? The apostles were given the ability to speak the gospel in the language of the people around them. What was the mission of Sts Cyril and Methodius? They brought Orthodoxy to the people in the language they knew.

The style of the music can be Greek, Russian, or any other nationality, but the language should primarily be in the language of the vernacular no matter what country we are talking about.

How beneficial is it for us to identify ourselves as Greek, Russian, Antiochian, OCA, Serbian, etc.? We (in America) are Orthodox Christians who happen to be American.

There are more reasons it is important on an administrative and even theological level, but I have to finish unpacking before I can write about this.

Believe it or not, I actually agree with you, Laura. I'm not at all offended. There are sometimes services in our parish, on feast days (not Sundays) when, depending on the chanter, we have actually had the entire service in English. It was sublime. I understood everything without having to check a book, search my memory, or try to catch the Greek. (Honestly it's much easier for me now, and I do understand a good bit even when it's in Greek, but those services were still a singular experience for me.)

The reason I personally want our parish to remain Greek-speaking for now is a selfish one. I am working to learn the Greek, and I appreciate the Liturgy in that language. However, that's just my opinion. It matters not, one way or another. If anyone WAS asking me, I wouldn't base my answer on my own preferences.

But for our parishioners, the Greek really is better. We have a good many older folks, and some don't even speak English. Except for a few younger converts, I think everyone speaks Greek. The children are learning it at home.

It isn't an atmosphere that makes converts completely welcome if that bothers them. Though to be honest, they miss very little. Many of the hymns, most of the prayers (all if you include more than one Liturgy), and all of the Scripture, homily, etc. are always in English. (A lot is presented twice, once in Greek, once in English.)

But the older folks are actually saying it needs to be in English. They support that it will be, sometime in the near future. Most of the older folks are 85 or older, so they are much more concerned with younger folks and the continuation of the Church. The idea of the Greek disappearing bothers me more than it does them, I think. (Our priest is also pretty attached to the Greek, and he is ethnically Irish-American, I think.)

What will be, will be. I accept it either way. I'm enjoying every bit of the Greek for now. But we need the Church to continue. We need to keep the young people interested. We need non-Greek speakers to feel welcome and included. I really do agree with you. I think the Greeks see the Festival as a way to share their culture, and they ARE raising their children to be multi-cultural and bilingual (most of them). But the language, over time, matters less to most of them than it does to me. And I know in my heart that they are right, and you are right.

I may even work on learning Russian/Slavonic someday. But I'm thinking Greek will be my last language. You certainly don't offend me though.

 

[~Anastasia~]

When considering why there are 5 parishes in one place and then nothing for a long distance, consider that parishes are where people are.

Overall, yes. But a forum I used to participate in had people all the time wanting to investigate Orthodoxy, but no parish within many, many miles. And it seems half the episodes of podcasts on AFR would have someone call or email with the same problem. The parishes ARE where the people are, but in many, many cases folks are interested but have no opportunity to visit a Church.

Chicken and egg though. You can't build Churches for them and send out priests when there is no one yet who would come.

 

[ArmyMatt]

one of my professors here says that we need time and maturity to correct the jurisdictional mess in the US. it'll happen down the line, we just gotta grow up, as it were.

 

[Antony in Tx]

When considering why there are 5 parishes in one place and then nothing for a long distance, consider that parishes are where DOLLARS are.

Fixed it for ya!

 

[dzheremi]

*Have the same liturgy, iconographic tradition, hymnody, mostly the same calendar; recognize the same councils, bishops, and patriarchs*

"We need to UNIFY, dang it!"

 

[truefiction1]

Overall, yes. But a forum I used to participate in had people all the time wanting to investigate Orthodoxy, but no parish within many, many miles. And it seems half the episodes of podcasts on AFR would have someone call or email with the same problem. The parishes ARE where the people are, but in many, many cases folks are interested but have no opportunity to visit a Church.

Chicken and egg though. You can't build Churches for them and send out priests when there is no one yet who would come.

There is a simple means by which this can be overcome. Simple, but by no means easy. Who will do it?

 

[gurneyhalleck1]

My feeble two cents.....

This is utterly ridiculous. Look throughout history at how churches were planted in new lands, grew to great numbers through the grace of God, then were granted autocephaly, etc. History shows a complicated situation in some of these places where there were several ethnic Orthodox cultural groups in one area that ended up falling under one jurisdiction.

America needs an American Orthodox Church, not a hodge-podge salad bar of overlapping cultural churches. Orthodoxy gets a bad rap from many folks (Catholics love to play this card) for being "ethnic." And to some degree they deserve it. We need not only the perception of unity to potential converts, but the REALITY of unity for one another. We need a strong North American or just plain American patriarch and there are many wonderful men qualified for the task---Bishop Maxim of my Serb church is my first choice as draft pick!

We need to stop breaking our own canonical boundaries and rules overlapping for the sake of keeping cultural heritage alive.

The reasons I think this nonsense continues is pretty much two-fold. For one thing, the United States is a sinful, secular humanist, collapsing, vulture capitalist going socialist, confused, lost land of people. Perhaps the patriarchs in the old countries feel keeping the parishes and dioceses tied to the old country churches that still have a sense of morality will keep a better example and more hope? I don't know, but I don't think it matters much there. Secondly, good old fashioned human ethno-centrism. These Serbs, Russians, Bulgarians, Antiocheans, and such all want to keep a foothold and influence of their culture.

America has its own saints now that are titans!---St. Herman of Alaska, St. John of San Francisco, the new saint of my Serb jurisdiction---St. Sebastian of Jackson, etc.

We have our own heroes, we have awesome clergy here with huge potential to lead, and we have good parishioners ready to follow. We have amazing institutions like St. Vlad's Seminary and other amazing ones, and there is just too much potential to throw this away.

But where human beings are involved, ugh.....

Ok, end of my rant.

 

[gzt]

Fixed it for ya!

Bishops tend to be averse to starting parishes in situations where there is money but no people, because that means you're depending on one family, generally, and what if something happens to that family?