Unexpected comment on temporal punishment from WCF

[MrPolo]

So in 2 different places does the Westminster Profession of Faith (1646) say that sin results in "temporal" consequences. And here I thought only Catholics and their Purgatory beliefs were responsible for such an idea!

Every sin brings temporal miseries:

Every sin, both original and actual, being a transgression of the righteous law of God, and contrary thereunto, doth, in its own nature, bring guilt upon the sinner, whereby he is bound over to the wrath of God, and curse of the law, and so made subject to death, with all miseries spiritual, temporal, and eternal. (WCF 6.6)​

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And even the sins of the elect incur temporal wounds and judgments:

Nevertheless, they may, through the temptations of Satan and of the world, the prevalency of corruption remaining in them, and the neglect of the means of their preservation, fall into grievous sins; and, for a time, continue therein: whereby they incur God's displeasure, and grieve His Holy Spirit, come to be deprived of some measure of their graces and comforts; have their hearts hardened, and their consciences wounded; hurt and scandalize others, and bring temporal judgments upon themselves. (WCF 27.3)​

Welcome, Reformed and Evangelical Christians, to the idea that we incur temporal punishment for sin!

 

[Uphill Battle]

Interesting.

 

[Standing Up]

1646???

They didn't mean it that way, semantics have changed, look at the situation, it wasn't binding for all,

 

[Harry3142]

MrPolo-

Romans 1:21-27 is a clear statement saying that those who choose to do what is evil will suffer the consequences of their evil in this life. There is a saying which applies to all, whether they are Christians or not:

You get what you pay for, and you pay for what you get.

 

[Anoetos]

It is saying that sinful behavior and choices also often have consequences in this life as well as the next. For example, sickness, disease and death, besides being consequences of original sin, can also follow directly upon individual sinful acts. Contraction of sexually transmitted diseases or the consequences of alcoholism come to mind as examples.

It has nothing to do with purgatory, it's talking about natural physical consequences of sin, not of punishments or purgations meted out by God in exaction of specific penal payment for sins committed.

 

[MrPolo]

It is saying that sinful behavior and choices also often have consequences in this life as well as the next. For example, sickness, disease and death, besides being consequences of original sin, can also follow directly upon individual sinful acts. Contraction of sexually transmitted diseases or the consequences of alcoholism come to mind as examples.

It has nothing to do with purgatory, it's talking about natural physical consequences of sin, not of punishments or purgations meted out by God in exaction of specific penal payment for sins committed.

I prefer not to use "penal payment" in reference to Purgatory unless you understand it as that which is necessary to sanctify, like the chastisement God inflicts on His children (cf. Hb 12:7-10). So please understand a Catholic's use of "punishment" with regard to purgatory in this way: the Catechism is pretty clear that Purgatory is about purification. That means whatever attachment a justified soul still has to sin and this world will be removed, purged away.

The Westminster Confession cites the "penalties" not just as natural consequences, but as coming from God because it cites such passages as:

Psalm 89:30-33 If his sons forsake my law and do not follow my statutes, if they violate my decrees and fail to keep my commands, I will punish their sin with the rod, their iniquity with flogging; but I will not take my love from him, nor will I ever betray my faithfulness.​

 

[Uphill Battle]

or, sometimes lousy things happen to people, regardless of their actions.

 

[Anoetos]

The point remains, all the sickness, pain, suffering and death we experience in this life is the result of sin. That's what the wcf is saying, there are natural consequences to our sinful choices.

And yes, these are God-ordained.

 

[Uphill Battle]

The point remains, all the sickness, pain, suffering and death we experience in this life is the result of sin. That's what the wcf is saying, there are natural consequences to our sinful choices.

not always.

Some sin endlessly, and receive no "temporal" punishment for their sins.


it's not as cut and dried as that.

 

[Anoetos]

not always.

Some sin endlessly, and receive no "temporal" punishment for their sins.


it's not as cut and dried as that.

1. There is no indication either in the wcf or in anything that I wrote which would imply a necessary, categorical reaction-response mechanism where if one does this, that always happens.

It's true, the ways of the wicked often prosper, but

2. Everyone gets sick, old and dead.

 

[Fireinfolding]

I dont get what they are referring to, could it be his judgments in the earth?

 

[ivebeenshown]

I dont get what they are referring to, could it be his judgments in the earth?

God's judgment has come in many forms, the Romans sieging Jerusalem in 70AD for example.

Laws of the land, arrests, fines, imprisonments, executions, etc. might be seen as judgments as well but it's a little hazy. Most people call it 'karma' and that seems to be a simple and accurate enough way to describe it in my opinion.

 

[Fireinfolding]

God's judgment has come in many forms, the Romans sieging Jerusalem in 70AD for example.

Laws of the land, arrests, fines, imprisonments, executions, etc. might be seen as judgments as well but it's a little hazy. Most people call it 'karma' and that seems to be a simple and accurate enough way to describe it in my opinion.

For example, the forgiven servant who became the wicked servant was the one Jesus adressed in the parable in Mat 18. The one who threw the other into prison was the one who was handed over to the tormenters. So the karma (in this case) met the one doing the imprisoning there.

The above you mention appears to be very similiar to what the righteous undergo though dont you think Derek?

He speaks of a "spirit of judgment TO" as well which in a sense reminds me of Saul who has an evil spirit given him to torment him, much like being handed over to the tormentors in the parable, this was a judgment meted him and he felt within himself it appears.

 

[Fireinfolding]

I usually dont like quoting anyone but Job in Job without testing out what is said, but here seems to fit

Job 34:29 When he giveth quietness, who then can make trouble? and when he hideth his face, who then can behold him? whether it be done against a nation, or against a man only:

Mat 23:38 Behold, your house is left unto you desolate.


1Sam 28:10 ....God is departed from me, and answereth me no more....

 

[PassthePeace1]

C. S. LEWIS


( TWENTIETH-CENTURY ANGLICAN)


"I believe in purgatory. . . . The right view returns magnificently in Newman’s Dream [of Gerontius]. There, if I remember it rightly, the saved soul, at the very foot of the throne, begs to be taken away and cleansed. It cannot bear for a moment longer ‘With its darkness to affront that light.’ . . . Our souls demand purgatory, don’t they? Would it not break the heart if God said to us, ‘It is true, my son, that your breath smells and your rags drip with mud and slime, but we are charitable here and no one will upbraid you with these things, nor draw away from you. Enter into the joy’? Should we not reply, ‘With submission, Sir, and if there is no objection, I’d rather be cleansed first.’ ‘It may hurt, you know’—‘Even so, sir’" (ibid.).

FINAL PURIFICATION (This Rock: November 1997)

 

[bbbbbbb]

FINAL PURIFICATION (This Rock: November 1997)

This is all well and good, but is it actual doctrine of the Catholic Church or merely the interpretation of one segment of the Catholic Church? What does the Catechism of the Catholic Church actually say? Does it leave room for priests and laymen to assent to the idea of purgation as being little more than a refreshing shower to cleanse one's soul prior to entering heaven?

 

[Uphill Battle]

1. There is no indication either in the wcf or in anything that I wrote which would imply a necessary, categorical reaction-response mechanism where if one does this, that always happens.

It's true, the ways of the wicked often prosper, but

2. Everyone gets sick, old and dead.

unless a seed dies, it does not grow.

the problem I have is this. People are all to ready to state that sin is punished temporally, but that overlooks the fact that some go from birth to death without any hint of punishment, and some who would seem to deserve less, are "punished" severely.

it's glib to state that sin is punished by God in temporal fashion, and know what we're talking about.

take a good example, the cripple, where the disciples asked "what sin, or what sin of his parents, was commited to make him this way?"

And Jesus replied, it was for the Glory of God.

his life stank. He was a crippled beggar. And his purpose was to glorify God through his healing, and subsequent praising and prophecy.

To state that "people get their knuckles rapped as punishment on this earth" is no more, and actually less sensical than purgatory.

 

[MrPolo]

Some sin endlessly, and receive no "temporal" punishment for their sins.

Again, remember what I said about the term punishment in the context of this thread. It refers to purification. So in actuality, any person who sins endlessly is indeed incurring many spiritual wounds and more and more attachment to sin (i.e. he who sins is slave to sin), and other unfavorable consequences. These consequences are "temporal" in the sense that they are not "eternal." The person may be on the road to eternal consequences, but these wounds can be healed and are thus temporal. I think the WCF reflects this.

 

[tz620q]

This is all well and good, but is it actual doctrine of the Catholic Church or merely the interpretation of one segment of the Catholic Church? What does the Catechism of the Catholic Church actually say? Does it leave room for priests and laymen to assent to the idea of purgation as being little more than a refreshing shower to cleanse one's soul prior to entering heaven?

In a thread about purgatory in Denomination Specific Theology, ebia posted the following quote from Pope Benedict's encyclical, "Spe Salvi"-

"Spe Saliv 47. Some recent theologians are of the opinion that the fire which both burns and saves is Christ himself, the Judge and Saviour. The encounter with him is the decisive act of judgement. Before his gaze all falsehood melts away. This encounter with him, as it burns us, transforms and frees us, allowing us to become truly ourselves. All that we build during our lives can prove to be mere straw, pure bluster, and it collapses. Yet in the pain of this encounter, when the impurity and sickness of our lives become evident to us, there lies salvation. His gaze, the touch of his heart heals us through an undeniably painful transformation “as through fire”. But it is a blessed pain, in which the holy power of his love sears through us like a flame, enabling us to become totally ourselves and thus totally of God. In this way the inter-relation between justice and grace also becomes clear: the way we live our lives is not immaterial, but our defilement does not stain us for ever if we have at least continued to reach out towards Christ, towards truth and towards love. Indeed, it has already been burned away through Christ's Passion. At the moment of judgement we experience and we absorb the overwhelming power of his love over all the evil in the world and in ourselves. The pain of love becomes our salvation and our joy. It is clear that we cannot calculate the “duration” of this transforming burning in terms of the chronological measurements of this world. The transforming “moment” of this encounter eludes earthly time-reckoning—it is the heart's time, it is the time of “passage” to communion with God in the Body of Christ[39]. The judgement of God is hope, both because it is justice and because it is grace. If it were merely grace, making all earthly things cease to matter, God would still owe us an answer to the question about justice—the crucial question that we ask of history and of God. If it were merely justice, in the end it could bring only fear to us all. The incarnation of God in Christ has so closely linked the two together—judgement and grace—that justice is firmly established: we all work out our salvation “with fear and trembling” (Phil 2:12). Nevertheless grace allows us all to hope, and to go trustfully to meet the Judge whom we know as our “advocate”, or parakletos (cf. 1 Jn 2:1)."

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From the Catholic Catechism -

III. THE FINAL PURIFICATION, OR PURGATORY
1030 All who die in God's grace and friendship, but still imperfectly purified, are indeed assured of their eternal salvation; but after death they undergo purification, so as to achieve the holiness necessary to enter the joy of heaven.
1031 The Church gives the name Purgatory to this final purification of the elect, which is entirely different from the punishment of the damned.606 The Church formulated her doctrine of faith on Purgatory especially at the Councils of Florence and Trent. The tradition of the Church, by reference to certain texts of Scripture, speaks of a cleansing fire:607
As for certain lesser faults, we must believe that, before the Final Judgment, there is a purifying fire. He who is truth says that whoever utters blasphemy against the Holy Spirit will be pardoned neither in this age nor in the age to come. From this sentence we understand that certain offenses can be forgiven in this age, but certain others in the age to come.608

1032 This teaching is also based on the practice of prayer for the dead, already mentioned in Sacred Scripture: "Therefore [Judas Maccabeus] made atonement for the dead, that they might be delivered from their sin."609 From the beginning the Church has honored the memory of the dead and offered prayers in suffrage for them, above all the Eucharistic sacrifice, so that, thus purified, they may attain the beatific vision of God.610 The Church also commends almsgiving, indulgences, and works of penance undertaken on behalf of the dead:
Let us help and commemorate them. If Job's sons were purified by their father's sacrifice, why would we doubt that our offerings for the dead bring them some consolation? Let us not hesitate to help those who have died and to offer our prayers for them.611